I love both Adeuce and Ivantill, and Deuce and Ivan are my favorite characters, but they are nothing alike lol. So I think a crossover works best when Deuce is Till and Ace is Ivan. I mean:
Deuce as Till: a fighter, impulsive, pure-hearted, easily rage-baited, shy when it comes to love. His relationship with his mom is an important part of his character.
Ace as Ivan: charismatic, wears a mask, very good at manipulation, his character is focused on love, a rage-baiter, teases/bullies the one he likes.
it’s genuinely wild how often weak hero gets reduced to "bromance,” like the story is just about a particularly intense friendship and not something far more complicated, far more intimate. this isn't just shippers projecting. this isn't just wishful thinking. you don’t need the director and cast members repeatedly claiming that suho and sieun are each other's first love to interpret that on your own. the narrative already tells you—quietly, devastatingly, and with absolute clarity.
the queer subtext isn’t subtle. it’s not hidden in glances or throwaway lines. it’s built into the structure of their relationship, in every decision they make. suho knew beomseok had tampered with his bike. that wasn’t just bullying; it was a premeditated act of violence. he knew what kind of danger he was walking into when he went to the ring, and he went anyway. alone. outnumbered. no illusions. he knew he could die. but he went. because they hurt sieun. because sieun got hurt for him.
that’s their language. not confession, but action. not sentiment, but sacrifice. die for each other. kill for each other.
and sieun, who had always been defined by his discipline, his detachment, his spotless academic record? he lets himself spiral. he got expelled. stopped eating. stopped sleeping. stopped going to cram school. when he found out suho was in critical condition, he froze in the middle of the street and didn’t move, even with a car speeding toward him. as if life without suho wasn’t a life worth returning to.
he came back from a coma asking for suho, looking for him. suho was already in one because of him. they revolve around each other like twin stars caught in gravity’s pull—self-destructive, unstoppable, and impossibly close. love doesn’t always look like romance, but that doesn’t make it less real. or less queer.
so no, it’s not just a bromance. and if that’s all you see—if you can watch all of that and not feel the weight of what’s being said without words? then i'm sorry, but you’ve missed the entire point.
what if till was way more infatuated with ivan than we thought? what if the whole time, till was actually focused on the both of them, yet due to ivan’s low self worth and unreliable storytelling, we had a complete different perception of him. maybe he was more transparent about his feelings to the both of them.
it would be genuinely insane if when we finally get till’s pov of his life, we get so much more of ivan and much less of mizi than expected. like an even distribution.. main reason i’m thinking this is because of his comic, where he’s seen so much. more chill? around her
he seems a lot more different than what we’d expect based off ivan’s perception of him. this is one of the only instances where his story has been told from someone outside of ivan. it’s very interesting to me.. they’re both pretty prevalent in his comic. they both were in his head. even though it was told by io, i think it’s still worth noting.
i fully believe till acted different and distant around ivan because of his guilt after the meteor scene, as he was likely ashamed of himself. convincing ivan that he wasn’t ever in till’s mind. maybe till felt he didn’t deserve ivan after the fact? i’m sure he was convinced that ivan hated him for it as well. till was probably DWELLING over what happened. it likely weighed him down a lot. in r6, he could’ve been so broken both because of mizi and because he was also going up against one of his loves, someone who tried to help him escape, but he went back on it. in r7, we also saw the meteor scene colors in his ivan flashback. the meteor scene is so heavily associated with ivan specifically, but we’ve seen till so affected by it in multiple instances. mostly in merch. but still.
maybe a lot of his actions were based off of ivan as well, and not just mizi. he’s been shown to be flustered around ivan on multiple occasions..
this is just a “what-if” scenario ramble. i just think it’d be very interesting if it was significantly more different than expected… very very curious for till pov of things. i wonder how much different it would be. we could see how ivan really ruined things for himself, seeing him inhabit till’s mind So Much more than we would’ve ever believed. not saying this is 100% what would happen at all! just ideas.. with how much they’re gatekeeping his pov, i wouldn’t be surprised if his pov completely changed our perception of his relationship with ivan, and till’s character as a whole.
anyways till bisexuality is so real We are so back.
a few more sketches where till is shown to be flustered around ivan. they mean so much to me. ivan you are so clueless
We have a canon drawing of Till not knowing who to chose between Ivan and Mizi (confirming his OBVIOUS bisexuality), and you still have people thinking he would never like Ivan. Vivimeng could draw them getting married and you'll have people saying "lol unrequited" "Till only likes Mizi" . I'm tired
okay. i am going to dump some of my thoughts (and frustrations) regarding r7 ivantill and ivtll in general so i would like to reiterate beforehand that these are MY thoughts and opinions and i know fully well that alnst is not over. i would Love to be proven wrong on this in the future, and im really hoping i am because i love vivimeng's writing.
one of the obvious and common 'frustrations' that people have with ivantill is that we never really get much of till's perspective or thought process regarding ivan. we thought we'd get some in r7, but all we really get is seeing that ivan is a trauma for till that is successfully used against him. but that still doesn't say much on how till actually feels about ivan. personally i think most people would be deeply traumatized by someone they grew up with dying right in front of them (and for them), so his reactions aren't exceptionally telling.
and honestly? that's perfectly fine. ultimately, ivantill is meant to be a onesided, tragic love.
well. it would be perfectly fine, to me at least, if there weren't so many insinuations to ivantill being mutual in extra content. obviously i can't show what exactly was said, but in today's patreon post, they essentially say the emotions between ivan & till were shared. (it was kind of. tacked on at the end. which was a little weird to me ngl)
it just. kind of rubs me the wrong way, honestly? if till really is dead and both of their character arcs are over and done with. it's kind of weird to me that they do so much for ivantill in extra content, patreon posts, and official art, but show almost nothing of till's perspective in the actual series. i thought it was a specific choice to only reveal all of that after ivan already sacrifices himself, but that didn't happen.
and i hate saying im disappointed, because im not into alien stage for ivantill specifically and it being unrequited or over isn't really the problem for me. it's that there's nods to till's feelings only in content that isn't the actual series. it almost feels like fanservice in a way ?? which feels stupid to say but. to have so little of till's pov of ivan in alnst itself but to state that their feelings were shared, to show his lyric sheet post r6, to have his hatred/love photocard be what it was... it feels off to me. i wish they'd either show some of that in the series itself or just not include it, if that makes sense.
but obviously this all just right now, immediately post r7, so who knows. i might be proven wrong next video. i believe in vivimeng's ability to create a full story, so i've just gotta wait and see!
I agree with everything you said! I don't want to sound ungrateful, because I love Vivimeng's work, but this round felt...disappointing? It was supposed to be focused on Till's feelings and the impact of Ivan's death (that's what they told us weeks ago)...but we didnt' have any pov about Till's feelings for Ivan, and the only flashback was a Tillmizi one who felt very shoujoish. Even if Ivantill is mutual, I don't feel happy because we didn't SEE that. R7 also left a bitter taste because Till was a great character and his death felt like a plot device to hurt Mizi (more). A little part of me thinks vvm didn't want Ivantill to take the focus away from Mizi, which I respect, they are their characters...but now we ended up with Till having a useless death and never getting character development, Ivan's sacrifice meaning nothing (you could erase his character and the story would be the same, and I say that crying because he is MY FAV), and a lot of fans destroying both of them ("Till only cares about Mizi, my hetero king" "Lol, Ivan sacrificed himself for someone who doesn't give a shit about him").
And don't get me started with the influx of romantic!Tillmizi fans saying that Tillmizi is canon, and denying both queer ships (Ivantill and MIZISUA). I don't know what vvm were thinking, but I don't think this is good result. ALNST was supposed to be a tragic story with queer characters, and now a lot of people are treating it like a shounen with a tragic (straight) main couple. Of course, it's the fandom's fault for being dumb and needing everything spelled with neon lights, but It makes me want to tear my hair off.
I hope Till is alive. I hope vvm have something else stored for us. I hope they start to show important things about the characters in the videos and not only in paid content that not everyone can see. I hope they share a comic or a video about Ivantill or Till's pov so that at least their fans can have closure. Because, right now? everything is a mess :(
I do believe that Ivan did not truly love Till, initially. He, like most of the cast, fell in love with the idea of him. He fell in love with how Till seemed to be free, and then fell in love with the idea of loving and being loved.
But he, in the end, did fall in love with Till. He grew closer to him and saw all his flaws and strengths. He saw what Till was truly like,tried to understand him, and still loved him.
It's hard to describe in a concrete way, but the point is that just because Ivan's feeling started off as shallow, doesn't meam they remained so.
And even if his feelings were shallow, it doesn't make them any less impactful.
Ivan, as a person, struggles to understand human emotions sometimes, and this can include his own. He doesn't do well with unfamiliar feelings, and they make him act impulsive.
So, his feelings for Till just grew and grew, until it got to a point where he didn't care to fully understand them. He knew they were there, and knew he wouldn't be able to get what he wanted from Till, and learned to finally except that but still prioritize Till at the cpst of his own life.
Feelings are such complex things, and that is something that Alien Stage goes to show us again and again.
Hurt people can react in so many different ways. Even the kindest people can snap if pushed hard enough, even the most confident people can falter, even the most cold people can still be warm. This is all so human, and it's never gonna be easy to put dowm into logical and hard facts.
Simply put, Ivan is human. Humans have feelings. And feelings are erratic, random and indiscriminatory.
For context, this a follow up to @crustyfloor’s great addition to my post about wanting Ivan to live for Ivan and not just for the sake of IvanTill.
My response just got so long, I thought it’d be better to make it a separate post so here we are!
“‘I wish Ivan lived for Till’ His relationships aren't all there is to him.”
THIS. RIGHT. HERE.
There is so much more to Ivan and it pains me that people don't see it or don't care.
And I get it, like @rockwgooglyeyes said there is a fair amount of focus on shipping in fandoms, and relationships are an integral part of the larger narrative of Alien Stage, but there's more to these characters than that.
Ironically enough, even Ivan views himself as nothing more than someone in service of Till. Ivan doesn't think he's much of anything without him.
Having Ivan live and be rescued by the rebels is the perfect opportunity to change all of that.
He would be completely cut off from his previous life (the aliens, Alien Stage, Till, etc.) and forced to reckon with who he is as a person when nothing is demanded of him anymore.
Let him finally drop the mask and get more comfortable showing his true personality.
Let him get his hands dirty with the rebellion, build his self-esteem from the ground up, and grow to live for himself.
Let him reconnect with Mizi! Have him realize that there are people who care about him and would miss him if he was gone. That there can be more to his life than always chasing, endlessly giving, and never receiving.
I would LOVE to see him have an arc of character development like Mizi. I’d pay for it, even.
This is probably controversial for me to say, but one of my main criticisms of Ivan canon-wise is that he doesn't grow much as a character, if at all.
From the beginning to where we are now, Ivan has always been laser focused on Till. Everything we learn about Ivan is tied to Till in some way. Even in the comics or art we get involving him, they almost always include Till.
I was joking before with my tags about Ivan not thinking about anything other than Till. But what do we know about Ivan that doesn't have anything to do with Till?
We learned that he's the only character that wasn't bred and lived his early years on the streets as a stray, but nothing beyond that???
Like that's such an interesting story idea to include and we know next to nothing about it!
And then Ivan sacrifices himself for Till. Something he would've done at any point in the story.
Nothing changed. His arc is flat. His character is static.
(And to be honest I kind of feel like this was done just as a means to further Till's character development—*runs away*)
There's still a chance to show people who Ivan is.
Not Ivan Unsha. Not "Till's lover boy".
Ivan.
I hope we get to see him.
Shoutout to everyone in the notes of the original post, your takes are all incredibly based! @unshallow-feelings @nottoonedin @paradisedisconcert @atrophiedemotion @m1zisua @hoisinblackcat
tkkrs are leaving bad reviews to a show that was NEVER for them. They got brave just because their fav inserted himself...but when I said I didn't want V to be there (for VERY VALID REASONS) I was the bad person?. I hope all "ot7" are doing something about this, because last time I checked JM and JK were part of BT5 too
