ʟᴀʀꜱᴀ

[larsa990]

Hello guys, I'm writing chapter 5 of my Haladriel novel, but some of Tolkien's writings say Orodreth is Finarfin's son, and others say he's his grandson. I don't like that he's Finarfin's grandson, but I think he's better off as his son. Can I consider him Finarfin's son in the first version, although I don't like that he's Egnor's son?

https://archiveofourown.org/works/68373966/chapters/176948816

An Archive of Our Own, a project of the Organization for Transformative Works

[larsa990]

I asked DeepSeek about the best actors to play the Valar and here are the results:

Queens of the Valar

[larsa990]

I asked DeepSeek about the best actors to play the Valar and here are the results:

Princes of the Valar

[larsa990]

I saw this person on TikTok, and he was strongly criticizing the Lord of the Rings series, and when I responded to him, he told me that the movies are better than the series, even though the movies talk about the third age, and there are more writings about it, while the series is about the second age, and there are few writings about it. Then I told him that Christopher Tolkien himself did not like the movies, so he wanted to lie to him and say that he liked them and did not like the series, even though he died two years before filming the series.

[larsa990]

Galadriel if she confronts Elrond about the kiss and discovers that he wasn't the one who kissed her

Elrond = Sauron

The owner of the theory

@apoloadonisandnarcissus

[apoloadonisandnarcissus]

Megathread: All Clues concerning “Elrond = Sauron” in “Adar meeting/Kiss scene” (2x07) - Part I

Fellow fans and I have discussed this theory several times, and in many posts, but I think it’s time to create the ultimate megathread, with all the clues, about it. 

And brace yourselves: this is a long read. The amount of evidence is mindblowing and so extensive I had to make two posts about it: Part II.

I) Visual clues:

1) The Touch ™

Let’s start with the obvious one:

This might parallel Sauron’s proposal to Galadriel in 1x08 (and even Galadriel’s reaction is somewhat similar in both scenes):

In 2x08, there’s also a callback to his previous offer (in Season 1 finale): I would have placed a crown upon your head. I would never have rested until all Middle-earth had been brought to its knees, to worship the light of its Queen.

In 2x07, there is an actual callback to Sauron’s offer in 1x08; when Galadriel reveals to Celebrimbor that she did wanted to accept Sauron’s offer (to be his queen):

2) Elrond's Inexplicable Glow Up

When Elrond arrives at Eregion, leading the Elven army, his face is soiled with dirt and mud. However, in the tent with Adar, he’s all cleaned up, with a fresh face, and pristine clean and polished armour and cloak, and flowing hair.

You have the beauty of your foremother, Melian of the Valar. If even a fragment of her wisdom is in your veins, you must know you cannot defeat me in battle. Adar can't see a pretty boy without gushing over him, 2x07

Why is this mention of Melian odd in this context? Melian was the Maia who fell in love with an Elf, Thingol, and birthed Lúthien, the Half-Maia, Half-Elf lady who married Beren, a human (and these two are Elrond’s ancestors). Maiar falling in love with Elves? Does this ring any bells?

Adar compares Elrond’s looks to one of the Maiar, angelic beauty (that Elrond, in spite of having Half-Half-Half-Maia blood, cannot truly have, no matter how attractive he is). And this isn't the first time in Season 2, that Adar talks about Maiar beauty, either:

And after what seemed endless thirst and hunger... I saw it. His servant's face. Sauron's face. And it was beautiful. Adar talks to Halbrand/Sauron, 2x01

There is also a lot of fire (red) on this scene; especially over Elrond himself: the ones who read my post about Sauron's color code in "Rings of Power" already know that red is the color used to signal Sauron's deceptions.

3) The Mystery of the Two Pins 

Hercule Poirot has entered the chat because the pin Elrond usually wears isn’t (1) the same as the one he has on in the scene with Adar, nor (2) the one he gives Galadriel: these are two different pins.  

Elrond’s pin is square-shaped and fits the circle; and the metal is mate. The one he used on the tent scene with Adar is diamond-shape and shiny (like Galadriel’s), and it’s placed on top of the circle (and not inside). 

3) Passing plot-device objects in an intimate manner is kind of their thing

4) The Two Saurons in Prince Durin’s speech

This is actually my favorite clue, and it’s used in mystery/thriller genre.

When Prince Durin is giving a speech to the Dwarves of Khazad-dûm to get them to fight for Eregion alongside the Elves, he mentions Sauron on two occasions. And what’s the footage on screen?

Sauron with Celebrimbor at Eregion (predictable):

But then, we have this: Elrond leaving the Orc camp after his meeting with Adar. Odd...

After we see him leave Orc camp, Elrond's next scene in 2x07 is him in full battle. Which might indicate that the battle didn't stop for Adar's meeting with Elrond... for some reason. 

4) Bear McCreary (OST)

“Elrond’s theme” is not present in the “Kiss OST”, which is strange, because when two characters kiss, usually their themes are mixed together. Yet, in 2x07, we only hear “Galadriel’s theme”.  

"Battle for Eregion": 4:27 - 5:20 (Kiss OST)

"Last Temptation": 6:27 - 6:55 (Rendition of Kiss OST with Sauron's theme on the background | this bit was edited and cut from 2x08, for some reason)

II) Autopsy of a Scene 

In this scene, we, the audience, see Elrond acting completely out of character. “Rings of Power” has established him as diplomatic character, a politician, and even Adar himself tells us this: "You are a courtier. More suited to wielding a scroll than a sword."

We do see (the real) Elrond growing into his “warrior” role in this episode, however, we still witness a certain vulnerability and unsureness to him during his scenes at the Battle of Eregion, because he’s starting his warrior arc, and we see him suffering with the loss of his kin, and his anguish and heartbreak over Durin not coming to help.  

We don’t see this in this scene, at all. It’s a completely different vibe. Here, his body language and attitude it’s like he owns the room. Even when Adar is a bit uncertain, "Elrond” is commanding and bold. Sure, he knows that Durin will come to help, but Adar’s legions are still massive (and the Dwarves only manage to control the situation in 2x08 because the Orc army is shattered and their leader is having a religious experience at the top of the hill).

Let's dig in:

"Your kin"!?

"Not before you have painted the sands of the Glanduin black with the blood of your kin."

Nevermind the threat, Elrond calls the Orcs Adar’s “kin”. Why is this odd? Perhaps we should recall Galadriel’s chat with Adar back in Season 1, to understand how the Elves truly see the Orcs:  

Adar: My children have no master. Galadriel: They are not children, they are slaves. Adar: But each one has a name. A heart. A heart. Galadriel: A heart created by Morgoth. Adar: We are creations of The One, Master of the Secret Fire, the same as you. As worthy of the breath of life, and just as worthy of a home. Soon... This land will be ours. Then, you will understand. Galadriel: No. Your kind was a mistake. Made in mockery. Adar reveals to Galadriel that he killed Sauron, 1x06

Galadriel calls the Orcs "slaves" and "your kind" because their existence is a mockery to the Elves themselves. Morgoth breed them as a corruption to Eru (Ilúvatar)’s creation (the Elves are called the “Children of Ilúvatar”). Meaning: no Elf alive would ever acknowledge the Orcs as “children” out of nowhere (let alone Elrond who’s meeting Adar for the first time, but apparently can read him so well like he has known him for ages).

The previous scene to Elrond’s arrival at Eregion, there's a lot of weight on Sauron’s blood being black, too: If you do not believe me, cut him open. Look at his hand, look at his blood. Black as pitch" as Celebrimbor describes it. We also see Sauron perform an illusion for his blood to appear red.  

Adar: My children have endured cruelties your bravest couldn't bear to hear spoken aloud. Elrond: "Are you prepared to spend their lives so freely, Adar? Are they?"

Why does Elrond keeps acknowledging the Orcs as "Adar's “children" or “kin”? He’s the enemy, and there is no agreement or diplomacy happening in this scene, because Elrond has been antagonizing Adar even since he set foot on that tent. There is no reason for Elrond to talk like this... unless he’s not Elrond, at all.

Because, in 2x01, we saw another character speaking in such a way: 

There is one. Since Galadriel's defeat, she sought out a new ally. An ancient sorcerer, to instruct the Elves in forging a new weapon. One you first told her about. A power over flesh. Do you remember those words? A power that will allow him to use your children as slaves in his army once more. Sauron/Halbrand "plants the seeds" of the Battle of Eregion in Adar's mind, 2x01

And this is the moment when Adar realizes that Halbrand is, in fact, Sauron, and later has Galadriel confirm his suspicion. It’s the mention of “his children” (Orcs) that triggers the recognition between them. Maybe, because: "Do you want to know what he [Sauron] offered me? [...] Children." He tells Galadriel, in 2x06.

The “idea” of the Orcs came from Morgoth, and Sauron was the one who used Dark magic to see it through. And, perhaps, that "magical imprint" creates a recognition between them, because, like Charlie Vickers said, Adar and Sauron share a deep and mystical connection.

Why is all of this relevant? Because after “Elrond” calls him “Adar” (“Father of the Orcs”), there is a switch on Adar’s whole demeanor, and we can even see him looking deeper into Elrond’s eyes, as if he was suspecting him not to be actually be Elrond. And we can see this in Adar’s body language:

Vorohil: The enemy outnumber us ten to one. So why the confidence? Elrond: Because I know something the Father of the Orcs does not. Vorohil: And what is that? Elrond: Even now Prince Durin is rallying a legion of Dwarves to our aid. And at the first rays of sunlight... you will guide them straight into Adar's flank [...] Ride to them now. Meantime, I will ensure that Eregion's walls hold for one more night.

Elrond continues to call Adar the “father of the Orcs” after he leaves the tent for some reason (force of habit?).

But it has to be noticed that Vorohil himself is puzzled by Elrond’s confidence and boldness. And why is Elrond sending him away, exactly? It’s not like Durin and the Dwarves need an escort to get to Eregion, we know they have been there before, in 2x03. Or is he sending him away for him not to tell anyone about this meeting with Adar? 

It's also worth mentioning that another character is also "ensuring that Eregion's walls hold for one more night":

Sauron: Lord Celebrimbor refuses to permit a counter-attack. He says the river will protect us [...] And that is why we're not going to obey him. Gather your finest troops. I am taking command of our defenses.

And how would Sauron know that the Dwarves are coming to help Eregion? Because King Durin III has one of the Seven rings of power, connected to Sauron himself. Which means that Sauron has a direct streaming service into Khazad-dûm, and is aware of everything that happens there. More; King Durin (by the power of his ring) doesn’t allow the Dwarves to help Eregion. Which means, the Elven army will be defeated (just like Sauron wants).

Planting the seeds of discord 

The diplomacy isn’t in the room with us, because we, the audience, don’t see Elrond trying to reason or deal with Adar in any way, shape of form. Instead, Elrond taunts him with doing Sauron’s biding and sacrificing the Orcs’ lives, while going full warmongering on Adar. 

Adar: Sauron is my enemy as much as yours. Give me what I need to defeat him and let us all be rid of him. Elrond: Is it not you that has done his bidding by laying siege to Eregion? Adar: Eregion has fallen into shadow. It belongs to the Deceiver now, as does every Elf within its walls.

What an odd thing for Elrond to say... How does he knows that Adar is doing “Sauron’s biding”? Has he earned his “gift of foresight” already? Without his ring of power? 

Elrond: Are you prepared to spend their [Orcs] lives so freely, Adar? Are they? Adar: The Ring for Galadriel's life. What is it to be? Elrond: Ask me on the field, when the neck with a blade against it is yours.

In this scene, "Elrond” is taking advantage of the Orcs’ dissatisfaction with Adar to create even more conflict between the “father” and his “children”. And the camera lingers on Glûg after “Elrond” says this: who was the first to betray Adar for Sauron, and stroke the first blow to kill him, in 2x08?  

Why is Elrond using tactics from Sauron’s playbook of manipulation and deception in this scene, exactly? Because, here, he’s “planting the seeds” of everything Sauron wants: the Battle of Eregion proceeding (as planned), the Orcs betraying Adar, and giving Galadriel a means to escape (which appears to be the only reason why Elrond is there, in the first place).

Houdini Elrond 

Elrond removes the pin in front of the Orcs and not one sees or says a thing about it. Glûg might have seen it (as I’ve read some fans saying), but Galadriel breaking free wasn’t going to stop the battle, so there was no point in him allowing it; and Galadriel killed several Orcs during her escape, so it kinds of contradicts the theory that Glûg  “let it slide” because he was upset with Adar. 

However, the Orcs being blind it’s one thing, but Elrond boldly faces Adar without his pin. Are you telling me that this corrupted Elf, with thousands of years old (older than Galadriel herself), doesn’t notice that Elrond’s pin is missing and that he took it off? 

What kind of sorcery is this!? Is almost like... magic.

"Forgive me"??

Why is Elrond asking for Galadriel’s forgiveness in this scene, exactly? It can’t be because he’s allowing her to stay as Adar’s prisoner, because he’s giving her a means to escape. And he looks very emotional for it to just be a trick to fool Adar. 

Also, Elrond being there in the first place is a contradiction to the promise he made Galadriel, in 2x04: 

Galadriel: Promise me, Elrond, you will put opposing Sauron above all other considerations. Even my life.   Elrond: I will make no promise whose asking is borne of that Ring. But I swear to you... defeating Sauron will come first. Even before you.

Is he apologizing because he broke his promise? Or because he’s about to kiss her (as I’ve read some saying)? All of these justifications seem kind of weak.

There’s another character who has a lot to apologize for, and who already had a similar to parallel this one, back in 1x05:

[larsa990]

Galadriel, if you confront Elrond about this matter,

[larsa990]

Why do people always compare this way? Do they know that the second era is not like the third era? And do they know that the movies also contradict the novel? From these comparisons, I know that these people have not even read the novel.

[apoloadonisandnarcissus]

One thing I don’t see talked about is how both Galadriel and Mairon had somewhat similar mindsets in Tolkien legendarium. They both wanted more than what the Valar could give/allow them:

“[Galadriel] being brilliant in mind and swift in action she had early absorbed all of what she was capable of the teaching which the Valar thought fit to give the Eldar’, and she felt confined in the tutelage of Aman.” (“Unfinished Tales”)

“He [Sauron] still had relics of positive purposes, that descended from the good of the nature in which he began: it had been his virtue (and therefore also the cause of his fall, and of his relapse) that he loved order and co-ordination, and disliked all confusion and wasteful friction. (It was the apparent will and power of Melkor to effect his designs quickly and masterfully that had first attracted Sauron to him.)” (“Morgoth’s Ring”)

Mairon ended up joining with Melkor, of getting more power than Aulë could ever give him. Galadriel somehow ended up a “penitent” and was only “pardoned [by the Valar] because of her resistance to the final and overwhelming temptation to take the Ring for herself.” (Tolkien Letter 320). This had nothing to do with the Oath of Feänor (we know she took no part in it). How did this happen we have no idea because, unfortunately, Tolkien passed away before finishing her story, and, if his last letter is anything to go by, he was working on it at the time of his death.

The Artanis x Mairon fandom often headcanons them as a cutesy pair in Valinor, but these two would, actually, be a power hungry couple. They would either keep each other in check, or the opposite (probably something among the lines of Galadriel and “Halbrand” in S1 of RoP).

[lansalla]

That's right! The only thing I realized from reading the Silm and the Unfinished Tales was that if these guys had met earlier, in Valinor, for example, they would have had a very, very bad influence on each other.

We wouldn't get two cute Aule students, but something like a couple of Veronica and J.D. from Heathers (only worse, because Galadriel probably wouldn't have come to her senses and would hardly have stopped)

[apoloadonisandnarcissus]

Right? If everything was the same, and the Valar didn’t gave Mairon the support he needed to refuse Melkor, him and Galadriel would end up being the evil version of Melian and Thingol. And it’s curious Tolkien never gave us a dark version of them because story keeps repeating itself in the legendarium. And even Galadriel parallels Melian a lot in the future (aside from whatever they had doing on at Doriath).

Side note: I keep seeing this headcanon of Mairon being Aulë’s pupil in the Tolkien fandom and did some digging. Nowhere in the text or letters he’s called an “apprentice”, he’s always referred to as a “Maia of Aulë”, a servant to a Vala, not a mere pupil. The pupils were the Eldar. Which means, Mairon could have been in charge of teaching Artanis at the Halls of Aulë, had he not joined with Melkor sooner.

[lansalla]

Oh, yes! And I feel Dagor Bragollach would be even more epic! Well, with the participation of these two figures… Yes, everything would be more epic and Middle-earth would have no chance at all in the end.

On the occasion of Mairon Maya Aule, yes, I agree. But, in my head, for some reason, I perceive him for myself as something like, uh, a graduate student, or there, a guy who has already graduated from university but still only has a PhD? Hahahaha (I understand what Maya is and how they relate to the Valar, it's just my abstract perception)

[apoloadonisandnarcissus]

According to the prophecy Morgoth is defeated at the end and world starts anew, only Men and human characters (if I’m not mistaken). I think Sauron might be the key to defeat him, since Tolkien keeps mentioned how he started as good, and having him repenting (even if he relapsed) is significant, in my opinion.

I see Mairon as an employee to Aulë (his boss) 🤣 because no one calls Sauron “Morgoth’s pupil”, and that makes more sense, in my opinion because he learned from Morgoth (sorcery, mostly), more than he probably did from Aulë, since he was created as a Maia of smithing.

Although, in the early drafts, Tolkien wanted the Maiar to be the children of the Valar (Valarindi), but he gave up the idea, probably because he felt it was too “pagan” (that’s the consensus). Which would make Mairon the son of Aulë and Yavanna, but only Oromë is mentioned as their hypothetical son, and Eönwë as the son of Manwë, but Tolkien later changed to “herald of”. This would have made Mairon’s betrayal even more tragic.

[larsa990]

My 13 year old Tolkien obsessed brother asked questions about the Battle of Dagor Dagorath in 5 AI chat types and in each one when he saw the fighters the name Sauron was standing against Morgoth

Even the AI sees that he will stand against Morgoth why don't we see the same thing

He still has hope for Sauron's salvation.

[apoloadonisandnarcissus]

I can’t believe I would ever find myself agreeing with AI, but, yes, I don’t think Sauron would ever join Morgoth at the “Battle of Battles”.

Especially when we are told in “Morgoth’s Ring” Sauron thought the Valar, included Morgoth, failed Middle-earth, and they all went rogue on Eru Ilúvatar. He doesn’t believe the Valar are acting according to Eru’s will. And he’s not that loyal to Morgoth as many assume, because Morgoth wanted to take Eru’s place for himself. Sauron pretty much uses chaos and destruction (Morgoth) as a means to an end, not as the actual end; in his mind everything he does is for the good of the peoples of Middle-earth. And he also wants to piss off the Valar. The Dork Lord has daddy issues.

[larsa990]

Also, there is something that confused me. Both GPT and DeepSeek mentioned that Eru is the one who brings him back, but he will give him the gift of humans. What does he mean by that? My stupid brother deleted the messages, so I would have sent them to you. But what does he really mean? 😭😭

[apoloadonisandnarcissus]

Brings who back? Morgoth? Or Sauron?

Because we don’t know, for sure, what happened to Sauron after the One ring is destroyed. We know he can’t regain physical form (Tolkien confirms this in his letters) and is diminished (spiritually) and nearly powerless. But the description in “Return of the King” how he rises above Mordor as a shadow and is taken by a strong wind makes me believe either Manwë or his Maiar might have captured him and taken him to Valinor. After the mess of the Second and Third ages I believe the Valar would capture him if they could.

[larsa990]

I mean Sauron by this and he said he would get the gift of humans which I remained confused about

[apoloadonisandnarcissus]

Like @sterramidnight said, the “Gift of Men” is death, mortality.

But after the Dagor Dagorath and Morgoth is defeated, there will be a new song of the Ainur and Men before Ilúvatar, to create Arda Healed (from Morgoth). I mean, this is pretty much Sauron’s goal on Middle-earth, he wants to heal it from Morgoth’s corruption. From my understanding, is supposed to be a “new and perfected world” for Men.

This can mean Eru brings Mairon back from his formless existence, and gives him a physical body, but it will be that of a mortal man (Halbrand?), and he’ll have to face Morgoth while being mortal. At least, that’s what it sounds like.

Mairon being given the “gift of humans” can also mean he might be “reborn” in “Arda Healed”, as a human, and no longer as a Maia. In “The Silmarillion”, we are told the Dwarves will “serve Aulë and to aid him in the remaking of Arda after the Last Battle.” Feänor and Ar-Pharazôn (+ his mortal warriors) will also return; and “shall it be known of what substance [the Silmarils] were made.” As for the Elves’ fate after the Battle is unclear.

[larsa990]

This is really cool so much my mind is trying to store this to bring back all that is in the Silmarillion the wonderful characters are really amazing especially Mairon

[apoloadonisandnarcissus]

The “Dagor Dagorath” is mentioned in several books: “Unfinished Tales”, “The Book of Lost Tales”, “The Children of Húrin”, “The Annals of Aman” and in every version of “The Silmarillion” Tolkien wrote. Even in “Fellowship of the Ring”, Tom Bombadil mentions it. Tolkien talks about it in his letters, too. Unfortunately, Sauron is not mentioned anywhere.

That’s why Tolkien scholars don’t understand why Christopher Tolkien claimed his father “abandoned” the idea, because Tolkien talks about it almost everywhere, including in a book he published himself. But again, Christopher did made a few changes to his father legendarium and curated it as he saw fit, so, there’s that too.

[larsa990]

The problem is that Tolkien died and did not write it and made it a regret in the hearts of his fans, but if this battle happens, I am sure that Mairon will return as Maia from Aulë.

He has great hope that the great characters from The Silmarillion will return in it.

[apoloadonisandnarcissus]

Tolkien was also working on Galadriel story when he passed away, that’s why we don’t have the full story on her.

[larsa990]

I will cry silently under the blanket 🥲🔪

[apoloadonisandnarcissus]

One thing I don’t see talked about is how both Galadriel and Mairon had somewhat similar mindsets in Tolkien legendarium. They both wanted more than what the Valar could give/allow them:

“[Galadriel] being brilliant in mind and swift in action she had early absorbed all of what she was capable of the teaching which the Valar thought fit to give the Eldar’, and she felt confined in the tutelage of Aman.” (“Unfinished Tales”)

“He [Sauron] still had relics of positive purposes, that descended from the good of the nature in which he began: it had been his virtue (and therefore also the cause of his fall, and of his relapse) that he loved order and co-ordination, and disliked all confusion and wasteful friction. (It was the apparent will and power of Melkor to effect his designs quickly and masterfully that had first attracted Sauron to him.)” (“Morgoth’s Ring”)

Mairon ended up joining with Melkor, of getting more power than Aulë could ever give him. Galadriel somehow ended up a “penitent” and was only “pardoned [by the Valar] because of her resistance to the final and overwhelming temptation to take the Ring for herself.” (Tolkien Letter 320). This had nothing to do with the Oath of Feänor (we know she took no part in it). How did this happen we have no idea because, unfortunately, Tolkien passed away before finishing her story, and, if his last letter is anything to go by, he was working on it at the time of his death.

The Artanis x Mairon fandom often headcanons them as a cutesy pair in Valinor, but these two would, actually, be a power hungry couple. They would either keep each other in check, or the opposite (probably something among the lines of Galadriel and “Halbrand” in S1 of RoP).

[lansalla]

That's right! The only thing I realized from reading the Silm and the Unfinished Tales was that if these guys had met earlier, in Valinor, for example, they would have had a very, very bad influence on each other.

We wouldn't get two cute Aule students, but something like a couple of Veronica and J.D. from Heathers (only worse, because Galadriel probably wouldn't have come to her senses and would hardly have stopped)

[apoloadonisandnarcissus]

Right? If everything was the same, and the Valar didn’t gave Mairon the support he needed to refuse Melkor, him and Galadriel would end up being the evil version of Melian and Thingol. And it’s curious Tolkien never gave us a dark version of them because story keeps repeating itself in the legendarium. And even Galadriel parallels Melian a lot in the future (aside from whatever they had doing on at Doriath).

Side note: I keep seeing this headcanon of Mairon being Aulë’s pupil in the Tolkien fandom and did some digging. Nowhere in the text or letters he’s called an “apprentice”, he’s always referred to as a “Maia of Aulë”, a servant to a Vala, not a mere pupil. The pupils were the Eldar. Which means, Mairon could have been in charge of teaching Artanis at the Halls of Aulë, had he not joined with Melkor sooner.

[lansalla]

Oh, yes! And I feel Dagor Bragollach would be even more epic! Well, with the participation of these two figures… Yes, everything would be more epic and Middle-earth would have no chance at all in the end.

On the occasion of Mairon Maya Aule, yes, I agree. But, in my head, for some reason, I perceive him for myself as something like, uh, a graduate student, or there, a guy who has already graduated from university but still only has a PhD? Hahahaha (I understand what Maya is and how they relate to the Valar, it's just my abstract perception)

[apoloadonisandnarcissus]

According to the prophecy Morgoth is defeated at the end and world starts anew, only Men and human characters (if I’m not mistaken). I think Sauron might be the key to defeat him, since Tolkien keeps mentioned how he started as good, and having him repenting (even if he relapsed) is significant, in my opinion.

I see Mairon as an employee to Aulë (his boss) 🤣 because no one calls Sauron “Morgoth’s pupil”, and that makes more sense, in my opinion because he learned from Morgoth (sorcery, mostly), more than he probably did from Aulë, since he was created as a Maia of smithing.

Although, in the early drafts, Tolkien wanted the Maiar to be the children of the Valar (Valarindi), but he gave up the idea, probably because he felt it was too “pagan” (that’s the consensus). Which would make Mairon the son of Aulë and Yavanna, but only Oromë is mentioned as their hypothetical son, and Eönwë as the son of Manwë, but Tolkien later changed to “herald of”. This would have made Mairon’s betrayal even more tragic.

[larsa990]

My 13 year old Tolkien obsessed brother asked questions about the Battle of Dagor Dagorath in 5 AI chat types and in each one when he saw the fighters the name Sauron was standing against Morgoth

Even the AI sees that he will stand against Morgoth why don't we see the same thing

He still has hope for Sauron's salvation.

[apoloadonisandnarcissus]

I can’t believe I would ever find myself agreeing with AI, but, yes, I don’t think Sauron would ever join Morgoth at the “Battle of Battles”.

Especially when we are told in “Morgoth’s Ring” Sauron thought the Valar, included Morgoth, failed Middle-earth, and they all went rogue on Eru Ilúvatar. He doesn’t believe the Valar are acting according to Eru’s will. And he’s not that loyal to Morgoth as many assume, because Morgoth wanted to take Eru’s place for himself. Sauron pretty much uses chaos and destruction (Morgoth) as a means to an end, not as the actual end; in his mind everything he does is for the good of the peoples of Middle-earth. And he also wants to piss off the Valar. The Dork Lord has daddy issues.

[larsa990]

Also, there is something that confused me. Both GPT and DeepSeek mentioned that Eru is the one who brings him back, but he will give him the gift of humans. What does he mean by that? My stupid brother deleted the messages, so I would have sent them to you. But what does he really mean? 😭😭

[apoloadonisandnarcissus]

Brings who back? Morgoth? Or Sauron?

Because we don’t know, for sure, what happened to Sauron after the One ring is destroyed. We know he can’t regain physical form (Tolkien confirms this in his letters) and is diminished (spiritually) and nearly powerless. But the description in “Return of the King” how he rises above Mordor as a shadow and is taken by a strong wind makes me believe either Manwë or his Maiar might have captured him and taken him to Valinor. After the mess of the Second and Third ages I believe the Valar would capture him if they could.

[larsa990]

I mean Sauron by this and he said he would get the gift of humans which I remained confused about

[apoloadonisandnarcissus]

Like @sterramidnight said, the “Gift of Men” is death, mortality.

But after the Dagor Dagorath and Morgoth is defeated, there will be a new song of the Ainur and Men before Ilúvatar, to create Arda Healed (from Morgoth). I mean, this is pretty much Sauron’s goal on Middle-earth, he wants to heal it from Morgoth’s corruption. From my understanding, is supposed to be a “new and perfected world” for Men.

This can mean Eru brings Mairon back from his formless existence, and gives him a physical body, but it will be that of a mortal man (Halbrand?), and he’ll have to face Morgoth while being mortal. At least, that’s what it sounds like.

Mairon being given the “gift of humans” can also mean he might be “reborn” in “Arda Healed”, as a human, and no longer as a Maia. In “The Silmarillion”, we are told the Dwarves will “serve Aulë and to aid him in the remaking of Arda after the Last Battle.” Feänor and Ar-Pharazôn (+ his mortal warriors) will also return; and “shall it be known of what substance [the Silmarils] were made.” As for the Elves’ fate after the Battle is unclear.

[larsa990]

This is really cool so much my mind is trying to store this to bring back all that is in the Silmarillion the wonderful characters are really amazing especially Mairon

[apoloadonisandnarcissus]

The “Dagor Dagorath” is mentioned in several books: “Unfinished Tales”, “The Book of Lost Tales”, “The Children of Húrin”, “The Annals of Aman” and in every version of “The Silmarillion” Tolkien wrote. Even in “Fellowship of the Ring”, Tom Bombadil mentions it. Tolkien talks about it in his letters, too. Unfortunately, Sauron is not mentioned anywhere.

That’s why Tolkien scholars don’t understand why Christopher Tolkien claimed his father “abandoned” the idea, because Tolkien talks about it almost everywhere, including in a book he published himself. But again, Christopher did made a few changes to his father legendarium and curated it as he saw fit, so, there’s that too.

[larsa990]

The problem is that Tolkien died and did not write it and made it a regret in the hearts of his fans, but if this battle happens, I am sure that Mairon will return as Maia from Aulë.

He has great hope that the great characters from The Silmarillion will return in it.

[apoloadonisandnarcissus]

One thing I don’t see talked about is how both Galadriel and Mairon had somewhat similar mindsets in Tolkien legendarium. They both wanted more than what the Valar could give/allow them:

“[Galadriel] being brilliant in mind and swift in action she had early absorbed all of what she was capable of the teaching which the Valar thought fit to give the Eldar’, and she felt confined in the tutelage of Aman.” (“Unfinished Tales”)

“He [Sauron] still had relics of positive purposes, that descended from the good of the nature in which he began: it had been his virtue (and therefore also the cause of his fall, and of his relapse) that he loved order and co-ordination, and disliked all confusion and wasteful friction. (It was the apparent will and power of Melkor to effect his designs quickly and masterfully that had first attracted Sauron to him.)” (“Morgoth’s Ring”)

Mairon ended up joining with Melkor, of getting more power than Aulë could ever give him. Galadriel somehow ended up a “penitent” and was only “pardoned [by the Valar] because of her resistance to the final and overwhelming temptation to take the Ring for herself.” (Tolkien Letter 320). This had nothing to do with the Oath of Feänor (we know she took no part in it). How did this happen we have no idea because, unfortunately, Tolkien passed away before finishing her story, and, if his last letter is anything to go by, he was working on it at the time of his death.

The Artanis x Mairon fandom often headcanons them as a cutesy pair in Valinor, but these two would, actually, be a power hungry couple. They would either keep each other in check, or the opposite (probably something among the lines of Galadriel and “Halbrand” in S1 of RoP).

[lansalla]

That's right! The only thing I realized from reading the Silm and the Unfinished Tales was that if these guys had met earlier, in Valinor, for example, they would have had a very, very bad influence on each other.

We wouldn't get two cute Aule students, but something like a couple of Veronica and J.D. from Heathers (only worse, because Galadriel probably wouldn't have come to her senses and would hardly have stopped)

[apoloadonisandnarcissus]

Right? If everything was the same, and the Valar didn’t gave Mairon the support he needed to refuse Melkor, him and Galadriel would end up being the evil version of Melian and Thingol. And it’s curious Tolkien never gave us a dark version of them because story keeps repeating itself in the legendarium. And even Galadriel parallels Melian a lot in the future (aside from whatever they had doing on at Doriath).

Side note: I keep seeing this headcanon of Mairon being Aulë’s pupil in the Tolkien fandom and did some digging. Nowhere in the text or letters he’s called an “apprentice”, he’s always referred to as a “Maia of Aulë”, a servant to a Vala, not a mere pupil. The pupils were the Eldar. Which means, Mairon could have been in charge of teaching Artanis at the Halls of Aulë, had he not joined with Melkor sooner.

[lansalla]

Oh, yes! And I feel Dagor Bragollach would be even more epic! Well, with the participation of these two figures… Yes, everything would be more epic and Middle-earth would have no chance at all in the end.

On the occasion of Mairon Maya Aule, yes, I agree. But, in my head, for some reason, I perceive him for myself as something like, uh, a graduate student, or there, a guy who has already graduated from university but still only has a PhD? Hahahaha (I understand what Maya is and how they relate to the Valar, it's just my abstract perception)

[apoloadonisandnarcissus]

According to the prophecy Morgoth is defeated at the end and world starts anew, only Men and human characters (if I’m not mistaken). I think Sauron might be the key to defeat him, since Tolkien keeps mentioned how he started as good, and having him repenting (even if he relapsed) is significant, in my opinion.

I see Mairon as an employee to Aulë (his boss) 🤣 because no one calls Sauron “Morgoth’s pupil”, and that makes more sense, in my opinion because he learned from Morgoth (sorcery, mostly), more than he probably did from Aulë, since he was created as a Maia of smithing.

Although, in the early drafts, Tolkien wanted the Maiar to be the children of the Valar (Valarindi), but he gave up the idea, probably because he felt it was too “pagan” (that’s the consensus). Which would make Mairon the son of Aulë and Yavanna, but only Oromë is mentioned as their hypothetical son, and Eönwë as the son of Manwë, but Tolkien later changed to “herald of”. This would have made Mairon’s betrayal even more tragic.

[larsa990]

My 13 year old Tolkien obsessed brother asked questions about the Battle of Dagor Dagorath in 5 AI chat types and in each one when he saw the fighters the name Sauron was standing against Morgoth

Even the AI sees that he will stand against Morgoth why don't we see the same thing

He still has hope for Sauron's salvation.

[apoloadonisandnarcissus]

I can’t believe I would ever find myself agreeing with AI, but, yes, I don’t think Sauron would ever join Morgoth at the “Battle of Battles”.

Especially when we are told in “Morgoth’s Ring” Sauron thought the Valar, included Morgoth, failed Middle-earth, and they all went rogue on Eru Ilúvatar. He doesn’t believe the Valar are acting according to Eru’s will. And he’s not that loyal to Morgoth as many assume, because Morgoth wanted to take Eru’s place for himself. Sauron pretty much uses chaos and destruction (Morgoth) as a means to an end, not as the actual end; in his mind everything he does is for the good of the peoples of Middle-earth. And he also wants to piss off the Valar. The Dork Lord has daddy issues.

[larsa990]

Also, there is something that confused me. Both GPT and DeepSeek mentioned that Eru is the one who brings him back, but he will give him the gift of humans. What does he mean by that? My stupid brother deleted the messages, so I would have sent them to you. But what does he really mean? 😭😭

[apoloadonisandnarcissus]

Brings who back? Morgoth? Or Sauron?

Because we don’t know, for sure, what happened to Sauron after the One ring is destroyed. We know he can’t regain physical form (Tolkien confirms this in his letters) and is diminished (spiritually) and nearly powerless. But the description in “Return of the King” how he rises above Mordor as a shadow and is taken by a strong wind makes me believe either Manwë or his Maiar might have captured him and taken him to Valinor. After the mess of the Second and Third ages I believe the Valar would capture him if they could.

[larsa990]

I mean Sauron by this and he said he would get the gift of humans which I remained confused about

[apoloadonisandnarcissus]

Like @sterramidnight said, the “Gift of Men” is death, mortality.

But after the Dagor Dagorath and Morgoth is defeated, there will be a new song of the Ainur and Men before Ilúvatar, to create Arda Healed (from Morgoth). I mean, this is pretty much Sauron’s goal on Middle-earth, he wants to heal it from Morgoth’s corruption. From my understanding, is supposed to be a “new and perfected world” for Men.

This can mean Eru brings Mairon back from his formless existence, and gives him a physical body, but it will be that of a mortal man (Halbrand?), and he’ll have to face Morgoth while being mortal. At least, that’s what it sounds like.

Mairon being given the “gift of humans” can also mean he might be “reborn” in “Arda Healed”, as a human, and no longer as a Maia. In “The Silmarillion”, we are told the Dwarves will “serve Aulë and to aid him in the remaking of Arda after the Last Battle.” Feänor and Ar-Pharazôn (+ his mortal warriors) will also return; and “shall it be known of what substance [the Silmarils] were made.” As for the Elves’ fate after the Battle is unclear.

[larsa990]

This is really cool so much my mind is trying to store this to bring back all that is in the Silmarillion the wonderful characters are really amazing especially Mairon

[apoloadonisandnarcissus]

One thing I don’t see talked about is how both Galadriel and Mairon had somewhat similar mindsets in Tolkien legendarium. They both wanted more than what the Valar could give/allow them:

“[Galadriel] being brilliant in mind and swift in action she had early absorbed all of what she was capable of the teaching which the Valar thought fit to give the Eldar’, and she felt confined in the tutelage of Aman.” (“Unfinished Tales”)

“He [Sauron] still had relics of positive purposes, that descended from the good of the nature in which he began: it had been his virtue (and therefore also the cause of his fall, and of his relapse) that he loved order and co-ordination, and disliked all confusion and wasteful friction. (It was the apparent will and power of Melkor to effect his designs quickly and masterfully that had first attracted Sauron to him.)” (“Morgoth’s Ring”)

Mairon ended up joining with Melkor, of getting more power than Aulë could ever give him. Galadriel somehow ended up a “penitent” and was only “pardoned [by the Valar] because of her resistance to the final and overwhelming temptation to take the Ring for herself.” (Tolkien Letter 320). This had nothing to do with the Oath of Feänor (we know she took no part in it). How did this happen we have no idea because, unfortunately, Tolkien passed away before finishing her story, and, if his last letter is anything to go by, he was working on it at the time of his death.

The Artanis x Mairon fandom often headcanons them as a cutesy pair in Valinor, but these two would, actually, be a power hungry couple. They would either keep each other in check, or the opposite (probably something among the lines of Galadriel and “Halbrand” in S1 of RoP).

[lansalla]

That's right! The only thing I realized from reading the Silm and the Unfinished Tales was that if these guys had met earlier, in Valinor, for example, they would have had a very, very bad influence on each other.

We wouldn't get two cute Aule students, but something like a couple of Veronica and J.D. from Heathers (only worse, because Galadriel probably wouldn't have come to her senses and would hardly have stopped)

[apoloadonisandnarcissus]

Right? If everything was the same, and the Valar didn’t gave Mairon the support he needed to refuse Melkor, him and Galadriel would end up being the evil version of Melian and Thingol. And it’s curious Tolkien never gave us a dark version of them because story keeps repeating itself in the legendarium. And even Galadriel parallels Melian a lot in the future (aside from whatever they had doing on at Doriath).

Side note: I keep seeing this headcanon of Mairon being Aulë’s pupil in the Tolkien fandom and did some digging. Nowhere in the text or letters he’s called an “apprentice”, he’s always referred to as a “Maia of Aulë”, a servant to a Vala, not a mere pupil. The pupils were the Eldar. Which means, Mairon could have been in charge of teaching Artanis at the Halls of Aulë, had he not joined with Melkor sooner.

[lansalla]

Oh, yes! And I feel Dagor Bragollach would be even more epic! Well, with the participation of these two figures… Yes, everything would be more epic and Middle-earth would have no chance at all in the end.

On the occasion of Mairon Maya Aule, yes, I agree. But, in my head, for some reason, I perceive him for myself as something like, uh, a graduate student, or there, a guy who has already graduated from university but still only has a PhD? Hahahaha (I understand what Maya is and how they relate to the Valar, it's just my abstract perception)

[apoloadonisandnarcissus]

According to the prophecy Morgoth is defeated at the end and world starts anew, only Men and human characters (if I’m not mistaken). I think Sauron might be the key to defeat him, since Tolkien keeps mentioned how he started as good, and having him repenting (even if he relapsed) is significant, in my opinion.

I see Mairon as an employee to Aulë (his boss) 🤣 because no one calls Sauron “Morgoth’s pupil”, and that makes more sense, in my opinion because he learned from Morgoth (sorcery, mostly), more than he probably did from Aulë, since he was created as a Maia of smithing.

Although, in the early drafts, Tolkien wanted the Maiar to be the children of the Valar (Valarindi), but he gave up the idea, probably because he felt it was too “pagan” (that’s the consensus). Which would make Mairon the son of Aulë and Yavanna, but only Oromë is mentioned as their hypothetical son, and Eönwë as the son of Manwë, but Tolkien later changed to “herald of”. This would have made Mairon’s betrayal even more tragic.

[larsa990]

My 13 year old Tolkien obsessed brother asked questions about the Battle of Dagor Dagorath in 5 AI chat types and in each one when he saw the fighters the name Sauron was standing against Morgoth

Even the AI sees that he will stand against Morgoth why don't we see the same thing

He still has hope for Sauron's salvation.

[apoloadonisandnarcissus]

I can’t believe I would ever find myself agreeing with AI, but, yes, I don’t think Sauron would ever join Morgoth at the “Battle of Battles”.

Especially when we are told in “Morgoth’s Ring” Sauron thought the Valar, included Morgoth, failed Middle-earth, and they all went rogue on Eru Ilúvatar. He doesn’t believe the Valar are acting according to Eru’s will. And he’s not that loyal to Morgoth as many assume, because Morgoth wanted to take Eru’s place for himself. Sauron pretty much uses chaos and destruction (Morgoth) as a means to an end, not as the actual end; in his mind everything he does is for the good of the peoples of Middle-earth. And he also wants to piss off the Valar. The Dork Lord has daddy issues.

[larsa990]

Also, there is something that confused me. Both GPT and DeepSeek mentioned that Eru is the one who brings him back, but he will give him the gift of humans. What does he mean by that? My stupid brother deleted the messages, so I would have sent them to you. But what does he really mean? 😭😭

[apoloadonisandnarcissus]

Brings who back? Morgoth? Or Sauron?

Because we don’t know, for sure, what happened to Sauron after the One ring is destroyed. We know he can’t regain physical form (Tolkien confirms this in his letters) and is diminished (spiritually) and nearly powerless. But the description in “Return of the King” how he rises above Mordor as a shadow and is taken by a strong wind makes me believe either Manwë or his Maiar might have captured him and taken him to Valinor. After the mess of the Second and Third ages I believe the Valar would capture him if they could.

[larsa990]

I mean Sauron by this and he said he would get the gift of humans which I remained confused about

[apoloadonisandnarcissus]

One thing I don’t see talked about is how both Galadriel and Mairon had somewhat similar mindsets in Tolkien legendarium. They both wanted more than what the Valar could give/allow them:

“[Galadriel] being brilliant in mind and swift in action she had early absorbed all of what she was capable of the teaching which the Valar thought fit to give the Eldar’, and she felt confined in the tutelage of Aman.” (“Unfinished Tales”)

“He [Sauron] still had relics of positive purposes, that descended from the good of the nature in which he began: it had been his virtue (and therefore also the cause of his fall, and of his relapse) that he loved order and co-ordination, and disliked all confusion and wasteful friction. (It was the apparent will and power of Melkor to effect his designs quickly and masterfully that had first attracted Sauron to him.)” (“Morgoth’s Ring”)

Mairon ended up joining with Melkor, of getting more power than Aulë could ever give him. Galadriel somehow ended up a “penitent” and was only “pardoned [by the Valar] because of her resistance to the final and overwhelming temptation to take the Ring for herself.” (Tolkien Letter 320). This had nothing to do with the Oath of Feänor (we know she took no part in it). How did this happen we have no idea because, unfortunately, Tolkien passed away before finishing her story, and, if his last letter is anything to go by, he was working on it at the time of his death.

The Artanis x Mairon fandom often headcanons them as a cutesy pair in Valinor, but these two would, actually, be a power hungry couple. They would either keep each other in check, or the opposite (probably something among the lines of Galadriel and “Halbrand” in S1 of RoP).

[lansalla]

That's right! The only thing I realized from reading the Silm and the Unfinished Tales was that if these guys had met earlier, in Valinor, for example, they would have had a very, very bad influence on each other.

We wouldn't get two cute Aule students, but something like a couple of Veronica and J.D. from Heathers (only worse, because Galadriel probably wouldn't have come to her senses and would hardly have stopped)

[apoloadonisandnarcissus]

Right? If everything was the same, and the Valar didn’t gave Mairon the support he needed to refuse Melkor, him and Galadriel would end up being the evil version of Melian and Thingol. And it’s curious Tolkien never gave us a dark version of them because story keeps repeating itself in the legendarium. And even Galadriel parallels Melian a lot in the future (aside from whatever they had doing on at Doriath).

Side note: I keep seeing this headcanon of Mairon being Aulë’s pupil in the Tolkien fandom and did some digging. Nowhere in the text or letters he’s called an “apprentice”, he’s always referred to as a “Maia of Aulë”, a servant to a Vala, not a mere pupil. The pupils were the Eldar. Which means, Mairon could have been in charge of teaching Artanis at the Halls of Aulë, had he not joined with Melkor sooner.

[lansalla]

Oh, yes! And I feel Dagor Bragollach would be even more epic! Well, with the participation of these two figures… Yes, everything would be more epic and Middle-earth would have no chance at all in the end.

On the occasion of Mairon Maya Aule, yes, I agree. But, in my head, for some reason, I perceive him for myself as something like, uh, a graduate student, or there, a guy who has already graduated from university but still only has a PhD? Hahahaha (I understand what Maya is and how they relate to the Valar, it's just my abstract perception)

[apoloadonisandnarcissus]

According to the prophecy Morgoth is defeated at the end and world starts anew, only Men and human characters (if I’m not mistaken). I think Sauron might be the key to defeat him, since Tolkien keeps mentioned how he started as good, and having him repenting (even if he relapsed) is significant, in my opinion.

I see Mairon as an employee to Aulë (his boss) 🤣 because no one calls Sauron “Morgoth’s pupil”, and that makes more sense, in my opinion because he learned from Morgoth (sorcery, mostly), more than he probably did from Aulë, since he was created as a Maia of smithing.

Although, in the early drafts, Tolkien wanted the Maiar to be the children of the Valar (Valarindi), but he gave up the idea, probably because he felt it was too “pagan” (that’s the consensus). Which would make Mairon the son of Aulë and Yavanna, but only Oromë is mentioned as their hypothetical son, and Eönwë as the son of Manwë, but Tolkien later changed to “herald of”. This would have made Mairon’s betrayal even more tragic.

[larsa990]

My 13 year old Tolkien obsessed brother asked questions about the Battle of Dagor Dagorath in 5 AI chat types and in each one when he saw the fighters the name Sauron was standing against Morgoth

Even the AI sees that he will stand against Morgoth why don't we see the same thing

He still has hope for Sauron's salvation.

[apoloadonisandnarcissus]

I can’t believe I would ever find myself agreeing with AI, but, yes, I don’t think Sauron would ever join Morgoth at the “Battle of Battles”.

Especially when we are told in “Morgoth’s Ring” Sauron thought the Valar, included Morgoth, failed Middle-earth, and they all went rogue on Eru Ilúvatar. He doesn’t believe the Valar are acting according to Eru’s will. And he’s not that loyal to Morgoth as many assume, because Morgoth wanted to take Eru’s place for himself. Sauron pretty much uses chaos and destruction (Morgoth) as a means to an end, not as the actual end; in his mind everything he does is for the good of the peoples of Middle-earth. And he also wants to piss off the Valar. The Dork Lord has daddy issues.

[larsa990]

Also, there is something that confused me. Both GPT and DeepSeek mentioned that Eru is the one who brings him back, but he will give him the gift of humans. What does he mean by that? My stupid brother deleted the messages, so I would have sent them to you. But what does he really mean? 😭😭

[apoloadonisandnarcissus]

One thing I don’t see talked about is how both Galadriel and Mairon had somewhat similar mindsets in Tolkien legendarium. They both wanted more than what the Valar could give/allow them:

“[Galadriel] being brilliant in mind and swift in action she had early absorbed all of what she was capable of the teaching which the Valar thought fit to give the Eldar’, and she felt confined in the tutelage of Aman.” (“Unfinished Tales”)

“He [Sauron] still had relics of positive purposes, that descended from the good of the nature in which he began: it had been his virtue (and therefore also the cause of his fall, and of his relapse) that he loved order and co-ordination, and disliked all confusion and wasteful friction. (It was the apparent will and power of Melkor to effect his designs quickly and masterfully that had first attracted Sauron to him.)” (“Morgoth’s Ring”)

Mairon ended up joining with Melkor, of getting more power than Aulë could ever give him. Galadriel somehow ended up a “penitent” and was only “pardoned [by the Valar] because of her resistance to the final and overwhelming temptation to take the Ring for herself.” (Tolkien Letter 320). This had nothing to do with the Oath of Feänor (we know she took no part in it). How did this happen we have no idea because, unfortunately, Tolkien passed away before finishing her story, and, if his last letter is anything to go by, he was working on it at the time of his death.

The Artanis x Mairon fandom often headcanons them as a cutesy pair in Valinor, but these two would, actually, be a power hungry couple. They would either keep each other in check, or the opposite (probably something among the lines of Galadriel and “Halbrand” in S1 of RoP).

[lansalla]

That's right! The only thing I realized from reading the Silm and the Unfinished Tales was that if these guys had met earlier, in Valinor, for example, they would have had a very, very bad influence on each other.

We wouldn't get two cute Aule students, but something like a couple of Veronica and J.D. from Heathers (only worse, because Galadriel probably wouldn't have come to her senses and would hardly have stopped)

[apoloadonisandnarcissus]

Right? If everything was the same, and the Valar didn’t gave Mairon the support he needed to refuse Melkor, him and Galadriel would end up being the evil version of Melian and Thingol. And it’s curious Tolkien never gave us a dark version of them because story keeps repeating itself in the legendarium. And even Galadriel parallels Melian a lot in the future (aside from whatever they had doing on at Doriath).

Side note: I keep seeing this headcanon of Mairon being Aulë’s pupil in the Tolkien fandom and did some digging. Nowhere in the text or letters he’s called an “apprentice”, he’s always referred to as a “Maia of Aulë”, a servant to a Vala, not a mere pupil. The pupils were the Eldar. Which means, Mairon could have been in charge of teaching Artanis at the Halls of Aulë, had he not joined with Melkor sooner.

[lansalla]

Oh, yes! And I feel Dagor Bragollach would be even more epic! Well, with the participation of these two figures… Yes, everything would be more epic and Middle-earth would have no chance at all in the end.

On the occasion of Mairon Maya Aule, yes, I agree. But, in my head, for some reason, I perceive him for myself as something like, uh, a graduate student, or there, a guy who has already graduated from university but still only has a PhD? Hahahaha (I understand what Maya is and how they relate to the Valar, it's just my abstract perception)

[apoloadonisandnarcissus]

According to the prophecy Morgoth is defeated at the end and world starts anew, only Men and human characters (if I’m not mistaken). I think Sauron might be the key to defeat him, since Tolkien keeps mentioned how he started as good, and having him repenting (even if he relapsed) is significant, in my opinion.

I see Mairon as an employee to Aulë (his boss) 🤣 because no one calls Sauron “Morgoth’s pupil”, and that makes more sense, in my opinion because he learned from Morgoth (sorcery, mostly), more than he probably did from Aulë, since he was created as a Maia of smithing.

Although, in the early drafts, Tolkien wanted the Maiar to be the children of the Valar (Valarindi), but he gave up the idea, probably because he felt it was too “pagan” (that’s the consensus). Which would make Mairon the son of Aulë and Yavanna, but only Oromë is mentioned as their hypothetical son, and Eönwë as the son of Manwë, but Tolkien later changed to “herald of”. This would have made Mairon’s betrayal even more tragic.

[larsa990]

My 13 year old Tolkien obsessed brother asked questions about the Battle of Dagor Dagorath in 5 AI chat types and in each one when he saw the fighters the name Sauron was standing against Morgoth

Even the AI sees that he will stand against Morgoth why don't we see the same thing

He still has hope for Sauron's salvation.

[apoloadonisandnarcissus]

I can’t believe I would ever find myself agreeing with AI, but, yes, I don’t think Sauron would ever join Morgoth at the “Battle of Battles”.

Especially when we are told in “Morgoth’s Ring” Sauron thought the Valar, included Morgoth, failed Middle-earth, and they all went rogue on Eru Ilúvatar. He doesn’t believe the Valar are acting according to Eru’s will. And he’s not that loyal to Morgoth as many assume, because Morgoth wanted to take Eru’s place for himself. Sauron pretty much uses chaos and destruction (Morgoth) as a means to an end, not as the actual end; in his mind everything he does is for the good of the peoples of Middle-earth. And he also wants to piss off the Valar. The Dork Lord has daddy issues.

[larsa990]

Well, what matters to him is that my child Maeron will return and rid himself of the evil that has plagued him from Morgoth. 🤭🔪

[apoloadonisandnarcissus]

One thing I don’t see talked about is how both Galadriel and Mairon had somewhat similar mindsets in Tolkien legendarium. They both wanted more than what the Valar could give/allow them:

“[Galadriel] being brilliant in mind and swift in action she had early absorbed all of what she was capable of the teaching which the Valar thought fit to give the Eldar’, and she felt confined in the tutelage of Aman.” (“Unfinished Tales”)

“He [Sauron] still had relics of positive purposes, that descended from the good of the nature in which he began: it had been his virtue (and therefore also the cause of his fall, and of his relapse) that he loved order and co-ordination, and disliked all confusion and wasteful friction. (It was the apparent will and power of Melkor to effect his designs quickly and masterfully that had first attracted Sauron to him.)” (“Morgoth’s Ring”)

Mairon ended up joining with Melkor, of getting more power than Aulë could ever give him. Galadriel somehow ended up a “penitent” and was only “pardoned [by the Valar] because of her resistance to the final and overwhelming temptation to take the Ring for herself.” (Tolkien Letter 320). This had nothing to do with the Oath of Feänor (we know she took no part in it). How did this happen we have no idea because, unfortunately, Tolkien passed away before finishing her story, and, if his last letter is anything to go by, he was working on it at the time of his death.

The Artanis x Mairon fandom often headcanons them as a cutesy pair in Valinor, but these two would, actually, be a power hungry couple. They would either keep each other in check, or the opposite (probably something among the lines of Galadriel and “Halbrand” in S1 of RoP).

[lansalla]

That's right! The only thing I realized from reading the Silm and the Unfinished Tales was that if these guys had met earlier, in Valinor, for example, they would have had a very, very bad influence on each other.

We wouldn't get two cute Aule students, but something like a couple of Veronica and J.D. from Heathers (only worse, because Galadriel probably wouldn't have come to her senses and would hardly have stopped)

[apoloadonisandnarcissus]

Right? If everything was the same, and the Valar didn’t gave Mairon the support he needed to refuse Melkor, him and Galadriel would end up being the evil version of Melian and Thingol. And it’s curious Tolkien never gave us a dark version of them because story keeps repeating itself in the legendarium. And even Galadriel parallels Melian a lot in the future (aside from whatever they had doing on at Doriath).

Side note: I keep seeing this headcanon of Mairon being Aulë’s pupil in the Tolkien fandom and did some digging. Nowhere in the text or letters he’s called an “apprentice”, he’s always referred to as a “Maia of Aulë”, a servant to a Vala, not a mere pupil. The pupils were the Eldar. Which means, Mairon could have been in charge of teaching Artanis at the Halls of Aulë, had he not joined with Melkor sooner.

[lansalla]

Oh, yes! And I feel Dagor Bragollach would be even more epic! Well, with the participation of these two figures… Yes, everything would be more epic and Middle-earth would have no chance at all in the end.

On the occasion of Mairon Maya Aule, yes, I agree. But, in my head, for some reason, I perceive him for myself as something like, uh, a graduate student, or there, a guy who has already graduated from university but still only has a PhD? Hahahaha (I understand what Maya is and how they relate to the Valar, it's just my abstract perception)

[apoloadonisandnarcissus]

According to the prophecy Morgoth is defeated at the end and world starts anew, only Men and human characters (if I’m not mistaken). I think Sauron might be the key to defeat him, since Tolkien keeps mentioned how he started as good, and having him repenting (even if he relapsed) is significant, in my opinion.

I see Mairon as an employee to Aulë (his boss) 🤣 because no one calls Sauron “Morgoth’s pupil”, and that makes more sense, in my opinion because he learned from Morgoth (sorcery, mostly), more than he probably did from Aulë, since he was created as a Maia of smithing.

Although, in the early drafts, Tolkien wanted the Maiar to be the children of the Valar (Valarindi), but he gave up the idea, probably because he felt it was too “pagan” (that’s the consensus). Which would make Mairon the son of Aulë and Yavanna, but only Oromë is mentioned as their hypothetical son, and Eönwë as the son of Manwë, but Tolkien later changed to “herald of”. This would have made Mairon’s betrayal even more tragic.

[larsa990]

My 13 year old Tolkien obsessed brother asked questions about the Battle of Dagor Dagorath in 5 AI chat types and in each one when he saw the fighters the name Sauron was standing against Morgoth

Even the AI sees that he will stand against Morgoth why don't we see the same thing

He still has hope for Sauron's salvation.

[larsa990]

Did Galadriel in the First Age, Second Age, and Third Age have the same characteristics or were they different?

Please answer

It has the same qualities.

Different qualities

Voting ended onMay 13, 2025

[larsa990]

Mairon in the Second and Modern Ages 🤭❤

[larsa990]

Charlie Vickers's Amazing Interviews ♥