Naruto's First Editor Yahagi Kosuke alongside Matsumaya, Torishima and Unozawa Interview for Denfaminicogamer (December 27, 2019)
left to right: Hiroshi Matsumaya, Shin Unozawa, Kazuhiko Torishima, Kosuke Yahagi.
Interviewer: TAITAI
Text: Seinosuke Ito
Editor: Kodai Kurimoto
Former editors of "Dragon Ball" and "Naruto" discuss the behind-the-scenes of "Jump" - The strategy "Naruto" took to compete with the unbeatable "One Piece" 【Kazuhiko Torishima × Kosuke Yahagi × Shin Unozawa × Hiroshi Matsuyama】
Weekly Shonen Jump has produced many classic comics, including Dragon Ball, and continues to produce new hits such as My Hero Academia and Demon Slayer: Kimetsu no Yaiba.
What is the secret behind Jump's strength? And with sales of print magazines rapidly declining, what direction should shonen manga, centered around Jump, take in the future? This is a major concern not only in the manga industry, but also in the world of games and anime, where works based on Jump's serialized manga account for a large proportion of the market.
On August 27, 2019, the radio show "Izakaya: Denfa Minico Gamer" was broadcast on Discord, featuring hosts TAITAI Editor-in-Chief, Kazuhiko Torishima, and Shin Unozawa, with guests Hiroshi Matsuyama of CyberConnect2 and Kosuke Yahagi of Shueisha, for a live discussion on the topic of "Where should manga go from here?"
Among the participants in the broadcast, Hakusensha's Chairman and CEO, Torishima, was a former editor at Weekly Shonen Jump who discovered Akira Toriyama and Masakazu Katsura, and later served as the magazine's sixth editor-in-chief.
Yahagi, also an editor at Weekly Shonen Jump, was in charge of Naruto for roughly nine years from the start of its serialization, and after serving as deputy editor-in-chief of Jump, is currently the editor-in-chief of Monthly Jump Square. In other words, the former editors of Jump who led Dragon Ball and Naruto to global success will be talking about manga.
Meanwhile, Unozawa, the former president of Bandai Namco Games, has brought numerous games based on manga, including Jump.
And Matsuyama, CEO of CyberConnect2, not only worked with Unozawa on the development of games for Naruto and JoJo's Bizarre Adventure, but he is also widely known, even within the gaming industry, for his strong love of manga.
As these members engage in free-flowing conversation in an "izakaya" atmosphere, the topics they discuss are extremely interesting. In particular, Torishima and Yahagi reveal the "core" aspects of Jump's editorial department, such as reader surveys and serialization meetings, from the perspective of former parties involved.
Anecdotes about how they worked together with manga artists to create Dragon Ball and Naruto are sure to be of interest to fans and non-fans alike.
The content of this article has been reconstructed from the comments aired on "Izakaya: Denfa Minico Gamer," with the addition of a Q&A session with visitors to the site that took place after the broadcast.
"It seems I didn't understand even half of Matsuyama," Torishima wrote in an email.
──Well, let's get started. The mood in the room is already party-like. It may seem a bit sudden, but I'd like to start with a call for a toast. Cheers!
──I heard that there was originally a drinking party between the four of them - Torishima, Matsuyama, Unozawa, and Yahagi from Shueisha. As many of you may know, Matsuyama is a very talkative person. However, at that party, it seems Matsuyama had a hard time speaking.
So I became interested in what kind of conversation took place that made Matsuyama unable to speak. When I asked why, I was told that Yahagi from Shueisha was talking passionately to Torishima about manga, leaving Matsuyama with no chance to intervene. I thought it would be interesting to recreate that party, and that's the purpose of this project.
Matsuyama: You don't remember, do you?
Yahagi: I don't remember (laughs).
Matsuyama: Well, it's good that you don't remember.
Yahagi: Because we can talk about it again.
──First of all, what did Yahagi-san and Torishima-san talk about?
Torishima: I don't really remember (laughs). We had a great time for five and a half hours, but no one really remembers what was said (laughs).
It all started when someone posted a photo of Matsuyama looking completely drunk on Twitter. I happened to see it and thought, "I wonder how Matsuyama-san is doing?" so I contacted him.
Torishima: Matsuyama has done an extremely good job creating the "JoJo's Bizarre Adventure" game [※1] and, before that, the "NARUTO" game [※2]. Unosawa also told me that Kyushu's Level-5, Ganbarion, and CyberConnect2 are all working very hard. I had heard that they were game companies that Bandai Namco relied on, so I was aware of their existence. But I had only ever met Matsuyama, barely exchanging greetings. So I sent Matsuyama an email, and he sent me two books. One was "How to Create an Enthusiastic Workplace: CyberConnect2's Ten Rules for Game Creators" (Seikaisha), which is about how they got to where they are today and why they chose CyberConnect2. The other book was a story involving a boy, called "The Medicine Called Entertainment - What a Game Creator Delivered to a Boy Who Had Lost His Sight" (KADOKAWA). After reading these two books, I thought Matsuyama was an interesting person. The first book mentioned Unozawa and Yahagi, and included some stories I hadn't known about. So we decided it would be nice if the four of us could meet and talk, and that's how it all began.
※1 JoJo's Bizarre Adventure games: CyberConnect2 is responsible for developing JoJo's Bizarre Adventure: All-Star Battle, a PS3 game released in 2013, and JoJo's Bizarre Adventure: Eyes of Heaven, a PS3 and PS4 game released in 2015.
※2 "NARUTO" games: CyberConnect2 has been developing 14 titles in the "NARUTO" series for over 13 years, from "NARUTO: Ultimate Heroes" for the PS2 released in 2003 to "NARUTO Shippuden: Ultimate Ninja Storm 4" for the PS4 released in 2016.
Matsuyama: That's right, it was several months ago now.
Torishima: How was it? When you received the email.
Matsuyama: I was already intimidated from the first line of the email (laughs). Usually, you see something like "Mr. Matsuyama, CyberConnect2," but there was nothing like that here. The very first line read, "It seems I didn't understand even half of you, Matsuyama." I was afraid to scroll down (laughs). I wondered what was written at the bottom of the email. Then, he said he'd read a book I wrote and found it interesting. He said he'd invite two people featured in the book, and we should all get together for dinner. So we went to the restaurant…well, it ended up being five and a half hours.
Torishima: Did we talk that much? (laughs)
Unosawa: You were sober at the time, right?
Matsuyama: We alternated between drinking beer and non-alcoholic drinks. Actually, it's been like that ever since. From that day on, I made a rule that if I drank alcohol, I'd drink the same amount of non-alcoholic drinks. After all, Unosawa was totally pissed at me at that moment. Even though it was Torishima's party, Unozawa was sitting next to him and for some reason looked really angry.
Unozawa: At that time, Yahagi arrived a little late, and even then all he talked about was how drunk you were. I thought it would be bad for everyone to know that you were drunk like that. You're the president, after all. Nowadays, games cost a lot of money. Bandai Namco entrusts that much money to this man, and the games are practically made based solely on this man's ideas, yet the president got drunk somewhere and ended up looking like he was dead. I got angry and told him that this is a management problem and that I would stop doing business with them, and he started to calm down a little. It's a good story (laughs).
Matsuyama: It felt like it'd been a while since I'd been told off by an adult (laughs).
Unozawa: To be honest, I went there expecting Torishima to scold me (laughs).
Matsuyama: I never thought I'd be scolded by Bandai Namco, which was right next door (laughs).
Torishima: But then, there was a manga called Wakage no Itari. When I saw the episode with Matsuyama and Unozawa in it, I thought, "That's a very Unozawa-like episode." It occurred to me later that the situation of that exchange was right in front of me (laughs).
Yahagi: I went in after that exchange was over that day.
Matsuyama: That was after I'd been scolded so much.
Yahagi: I arrived late, so I only just now realize what they were talking about. I'm glad I wasn't there (laughs).
Torishima: Coming in late, I wondered if Yahagi would be okay with this energy. I thought. So, I threw out a line. "How's it going now? What's the situation at the editorial department?" Then, we started talking about various things very seriously. And then we ended up getting excited in a different way.
──What was the conversation about?
Yahagi: I don't remember that at all (laughs). I think I spoke about what I was angry about at that time because it was Torishima. I don't really remember it.
Torishima: So, what are you currently upset about? (laughs)
Yahagi: The conversation won't be able to progress. You have to play the "beep" sound (laughs)
Torishima: Well then, why don't you talk about what's been bothering you lately?
Yahagi: Not that much, though. What should I say, it's difficult, isn't it? You want to say it in the flow of the conversation, right?
Torishima: But the company is no good, right?
Yahagi: No, that's not true (laughs).
Matsuyama: It's not like you can say "That's right," (laughs)
Torishima: I don't know what kind of company Mr. Yahagi's company is. Could it be that your company is Shogakukan? (laughs)
Everyone: (Laughing out loud)
What kind of story could a manga possibly be it runs for 15 or 20 years and doesn't end?!?
Matsuyama: I want to ask you something. In Berserk[※3] Casca finally awakens, right?
※3 Berserk: A dark fantasy comic written by Miura Kentaro since 1989. During the Eclipse, in which protagonist Guts' best friend Griffith was subjugated by evil, the female swordsman Casca was raped and lost her sanity, but she finally regained consciousness in the 40th volume, published in 2018.
Torishima: I don't really care.
Matsuyama: What!? It's been 22 years since we last saw Casca.
Torishima: I told Miura himself, but I don't really like the way the story has developed in Berserk since Eclipse. To be honest, I'm not interested as a reader, so I haven't read it. Sorry (laughs).
Matsuyama: You work at Hakusensha, right?
Torishima: I'm now the president, so I don't have direct responsibility for the production (laughs). But… not finishing the story when it was at its peak, and drawing it now as part of the story's progression, might be good for fans, but I think most people would be like, "So what?" I know this is blunt, but you shouldn't do the same manga for 10 or 20 years.
The reason is that weekly magazines publish 50 issues a year, right? 50 chapters, right? So if you do it over 10 years, that's 500 chapters. So what kind of story would still be incomplete?
Weekly magazines don't generally publish four weeks a month. So they have to finish one episode every four weeks in a cycle.
It should be at least two months. If that goes on for months, new readers won't be able to get in. The good thing about manga is that anyone can read it, anyone can get into it; it's the cheapest form of entertainment. I think it's a bad business strategy to make it so that people can't get into it halfway through.
I know this sounds like I'm criticizing my former company, but when I joined the company, I couldn't read the baseball manga they published. The reason is that it took months to throw a single ball. It's no joke.
I understand that they want to keep showing the climax because there are surveys, but if you misunderstand that point, it becomes a kind of self-indulgence. After all, you have to be able to cut back when readers want to see more, and figure out how to play the tug-of-war while keeping the reader in mind.
In that sense, it feels like editors are currently leaning too close to the author, and not properly positioned between the author and the reader. So, let's hand it back to Yahagi (laughs).
Yahagi: Well, it does happen, but you do get drawn in. Also, once you've captured this many customers, I think one way of thinking might be to create something that entertains those customers.
It's really difficult to make an effort to attract new readers.
For example, magazines have "we'll sell at this timing" strategy. For instance, a great author might start a new series. At that time, we tell them that there are readers who will read from here, and new readers who will join, so they should make their current series readable to those new readers.
But they get pulled along by previous developments and what they want to do, and there are few authors who can keep up properly. Amidst all this, those who are truly eager want to attract new readers cling on. There are some authors who are increasingly ambitious, and others who say, "I've had enough," so I think it's hard to generalize about this.
All manga artists who have serials in Jump are aiming to come in first in the survey.
Torishima: I have two things I'd like to ask Matsuyama, as a manga fan. First of all. The fact that the number one manga hasn't changed in 10 years means that the magazine's color scheme hasn't changed in 10 years either. Would you want to read such a magazine?
Second. They take a break every few weeks and write good manuscripts. The tankōbon (volume) will also sell. But there are issues where the manga is featured and issues where it isn't. The issues where is not included are considered defective products by the fans of that manga, right? Even so, would you still buy that magazine? Please answer these two questions.
Matsuyama: If I answer seriously, the answer to both is "NO."
It's really strange for the same work to be in first place for 10 years straight. The fact that new works, one after another, and unexpected new entertainment keep emerging is what "Shonen Jump" was all about, wasn't it? I know it's not the best way to put it, but it's like a place of toxic competition. ...This is a bad analogy (laughs).
But I still think that compared to other magazines, "Jump" is where truly groundbreaking works are born. Moreover, the people who create such mega-hits are all young, not veterans, right?
That's exactly what "Jump" is, and I've always thot so.
Matsuyama: To be honest, the answer is "NO" to both.
It's strange that the same work has been number one for 10 years. Weekly Shonen Jump was supposed to be a place where new works, unexpected new entertainment, were born one after another. Sorry to say this, but it's like a poisonous place. …That's a bad analogy (laughs).
But compared to other magazines, I think Jump is the place where monster-like inventions are born. What's more, the people who create those mega hits aren't veterans, but young artists. I've always thought that's what Jump is all about.
Yahagi: I think everyone at Jump is aiming for the top. It's just that, in the end, the top work wasn't overtaken by others.
The hardest part is for the person at the top. Because you don't want to be overtaken, right? So, that means you have to keep being at the top all the time. Even if a work I'm in charge of takes the top spot once, I feel like throwing up the next week. Because there's no choice but to fall off, right? (laughs)
However, there are indeed manga that continue to clear that hurdle, like "Dragon Ball." If it gets 800 votes in a survey, it's like, "Ah, we can't win."
Of course, I think we shouldn't have that feeling of "not being able to win." However, back in our day, we were definitely aiming to be number one. If we ranked first in the survey, the editor would listen to whatever the manga artists said. For example, allowing them to draw freely.
What I heard from Yoichi Takahashi was, "You don't have to write the dialogue in the speech bubbles in your manuscript. Your editor will transcribe it all from the storyboard for you," he said.
When "Captain Tsubasa" ranked first in the past, they devised such a system, and thanks to that, when I became the editor, I ended up having to transcribe everything by hand (laughs).
Torishima: That's not acceptable, right? (laughs)
Yahagi: But that's a right that Takahashi achieved and earned by saying so himself. I don't mean to complain about that.
The bottom line is that getting first place in a reader survey is the goal of all Jump authors. There are only 20 manga in Jump, right?
Getting first place out of 20 is easy to imagine. If this and that are ranked first, second, and third, then all you have to do is surpass them.
So, ultimately, it may seem like the number one manga never changes, but in fact, it changes quite a bit from week to week.
Matsuyama: For example, right now, whenever it's featured, "One Piece" is at number one, and it's an unshakable number one.
Yahagi: But even "One Piece" sometimes gets overtaken.
Matsuyama: Does that happen!?
Yahagi: Yes, it does. I've overtaken it at times too.
Matsuyama: That would be "Naruto."
Yahagi: "Naruto" and I've seen other manga surpass it as well. However, the annual number one is, of course, overwhelmingly "One Piece." Even if people say it's strange for it to continue for 10 years, I think it's because Eiichiro Oda-sensei's efforts are number one.
It's not like some strange force is making it number one. Readers really put the most interesting things in first place.
Matsuyama: That's definitely true.
Yahagi: What's amazing about Oda-sensei is that he's still evolving even now. He apparently tells his editors, "Just tell me anything that's flawed." I think that's what makes Oda-sensei so amazing. Even if a young editor says something completely stupid, Oda-sensei seems to take it on board.
Matsuyama: Apparently, with each week's storyboard, he always makes the person in charge tell him what they find most troubling.
Torishima: That's obvious, isn't it?
Matsuyama: Of course it is (laughs).
Yahagi: When a new employee becomes the editor in charge, they normally can't say anything like that. After all, until a few years ago, he was the kind of person who would write, "I love One Piece" in his graduation anthology.
Matsuyama: He's the author of "One Piece," which I read as a child.
Jump is the only magazine in the world that features the debut work of a new manga artist on its cover
Torishima: Let's put aside the #1 ranking for a moment and turn the conversation to Unozawa. Yahagi and I were both deeply involved in the editorial department of Weekly Shonen Jump. So, looking at it from the outside, how did this stagnant atmosphere at Jump's editorial department look, for better or worse? I imagine you're familiar with other manga magazines and their editorial departments as well, Unozawa.
Unozawa: I've had the opportunity to work on games based on a variety of manga, but Jump is definitely different. It's the only one with a completely different system, you know. They did an NHK documentary about it, but the editorial department itself is a kind of overthrow of the ruling class. They try to answer the phone faster than anyone else and grab promising new talent, and so on.
Matsuyama:
Everyone in the editorial department is a rival.
Unozawa:
The company I worked at, Bandai, was also a pretty cutthroat company, though. They were said to be a fairly carnivorous, hunting tribe. But even more than that, I think Jump is amazing. As a result, when Bandai Namco gets into business, it's all Jump stuff that sells. There are plenty of interesting original works from publishers other than Shueisha, but their sales aren't as great. That's the strange thing about it.
Matsuyama: Bandai Namco's core strengths are made up of Dragon Ball, One Piece, and Naruto (laughs).
Unosawa: And Gundam (laughs). They have Sentai and Rider series for kids, but for older elementary school students and above, it becomes Jump. I happened to be working on Mobile Police Patlabor [※4] and stuff like that, so I used to go to the Weekly Shonen Sunday editorial department and stuff back then, but it's a very peaceful place over there (laughs). The atmosphere is completely different. It's a different story if you ask which one I prefer. Simply speaking of manga magazines, I quite like Sunday. But Jump is a completely different thing. I think even the stories that have been going on for 10 years now are quite unique. If it's not easy for everyone to understand, it won't be number one. No matter how talented the author is, for example, just because it's drawn by Otomo Katsuhiro, it doesn't necessarily make it to number one.
※4 "Mobile Police Patlabor" is a multifaceted media mix project that includes anime and comics, set in Tokyo, where work robots known as "Labors" are widespread. The manga version by Masami Yuki was serialized in Weekly Shonen Sunday from 1988 to 1994.
Yahagi: That's a different vector, things like sales or being talked about. Jump is a place where young people team up to create that kind of thing; not like Bakuman. It's not a place where veterans thrive. For example, the idea that Torishima and I would start a new manga and create something amazing is a non-existent idea at Jump. New employees join the magazine and meet manga artists who are about the same age as them. Jump is the first manga magazine that everyone read, so everyone comes to it with their work. When that happens, the editor there will properly interact with and put up with the artist, no matter how young.
So the artist will want to listen carefully to what the editor has to say, and the editor will grow as they observe the artist. Both parties will feel that they have to devote themselves to the artist, and so they grow. That's how you get to number one. Even if you're not number one, once you've reached a certain rank, you don't want to fall from that point. And it's not just the artist, it's something that concerns the editor as well.
But when a veteran editor is assigned, that's not the case. We tend to see things quite objectively, thinking, "That's true," or "That's where you should be." That's why everyone in the Jump editorial department leaves the company as they get older.
Unosawa: Do you do that on purpose? Or does it just happen naturally?
Unosawa: Both. For both editors and artists.
Yahagi: Both the editors and the manga artists. As for Jump, we want to run new series with new manga artists. We put an artist who's completely unknown, an artist who's making their debut with this manga, on the cover of the new series issue. Jump is probably the only magazine like that in the world.
That's why our approach is so different from other magazines. Our methodology is different, our way of thinking is different.
I think that's the kind of magazine we are. That's why we're the only one that sells, and why we put new things out of it.
Unosawa: Conversely, why don't other magazines do it?
Yahagi: They can't. It's scary.
Unozawa: They'd put in a survey postcard and be ruthless with it. Like social games these days.
Matsuyama: It's probably not just about surveys and KPIs. Other magazines have surveys too, and of course they compile the results.
Torishima: So I'd like to ask Matsuyama, who loves Jump, one more question. You know that postcard that says, "Please circle three things you find interesting?" That's the Jump survey system that Unozawa just mentioned. It's also been criticized, though. Say, Matsuyama, you send out a postcard, read all 20 articles, rate them, and circle your top three? What kind of mindset do you think you have when you circle your three most interesting articles?
Matsuyama: I've always been one to circle surveys and send them in, even as a child. Based on my experience back then, I would have chosen the three most interesting articles in Jump that week.
Matsuyama: I've always liked this work, but I didn't include the ones that I thought were a little off this week.
Yahagi: So you criticize them properly too.
Torishima: I feel like that's a little low (laughs).
Yahagi: That's a rare type, isn't it?
Matsuyama: I think most people would blindly choose "One Piece" first.
Torishima: Usually it's three things that I originally like. The rest is whatever catches my eye at the time. This may seem extreme, but whether it's interesting or not doesn't really matter. After all, 19 pages of a manga is 19 pages even if you've thought about it.
In other words, whether it's 19 pages where you put a lot of thought into it, or 19 pages where there are a few memorable panels, the one that gets a check mark is the winner.
So, if you use your week incorrectly and spend 9 days instead of 7 days drawing a manga, and say that this week is interesting, you'll only have 5 days left to use the next week. If that's the case, you should just accept it and say, "That's good enough for this week."
That's why when Toriyama moved from Dr. Slump to Dragon Ball, he said to me, "Torishima-san, story manga is easy; you finish it when the page count comes." (laughs)
Matsuyama: Because comedy manga are self-contained in one episode, and you have to have a punchline.
Yahagi: That's a certain state of mind, isn't it?
I still regret not finishing Dragon Ball before the Majin Buu arc.
Matsuyama: But my feeling is that Dragon Ball was serialized for a total of 11 years, and from the Shonen Arc to the final battle with Majin Buu, it was just over 10 years. I feel like the fact that Dragon Ball ran for that long was what led to subsequent Jump manga becoming longer.
Since then, One Piece and Naruto have both been running for over 10 years, as have Gintama and Bleach. Those kinds of long-running series have now mostly come to an end, except for One Piece.
Torishima: Well, since I'm a graduate now, I'll say it— I wanted to stop "Dragon Ball," but they wouldn't let me. To be clear, it was the decision of my predecessor and the one before him. At that time, I was at "V Jump," and I still regret not being able to help Toriyama. The Majin Buu Saga shouldn't have been done, right?
What I mean is that the previous editor-in-chief and the one before that only looked at the magazine's circulation numbers. They don't look at who is drawing and who is supporting. TIt's the readers who pay the money. The artists are the ones drawing. We're not doing this for the company, we're doing it for the readers. When you forget that, that's what happens.
So, the circulation of "Jump" kept declining after "Dragon Ball" ended. As a result, I was moved back from "V Jump" to "Weekly Shonen Jump" for that reason.
Yahagi: He was furious at the time (laughs). He was like, "Don't mess with me!" Can you imagine how the people working under him felt? (laughs)
Torishima: (laughs) what Yahagi said earlier about putting a new artist's new series on the cover actually happened after I returned.
Yahagi: Is that so? That's right.
Torishima: The reason for that is that when I returned, I had no choice but to ask myself again, "What is Jump?" because the magazine was in turmoil. At first glance, the circulation still seemed to be just under 6 million copies, but it was clear that it would continue to fall. Everyone in the editorial department looked gloomy, and the company was in turmoil.
Matsuyama: But it was still 6 million copies.
Torishima: When you reconsider that, as Yahagi said earlier, Jump only has new series by newcomers. The reason we do new series by newcomers is because they create works with the sensibility closest to that of readers. Because they can grasp the atmosphere. But because they're newcomers, their drawings aren't very good. They don't have the compositional skills. So in order to give it a proper shape, they have to discuss it with their editors. That's how it gets shaped.
Another good thing about new series by new writers is that, as Yahagi said earlier, the writer and editor grow together, so when they grasp something, the awakening and explosive power is different. They really grow all at once. It's like when a three-year-old horse enters the Derby and then suddenly becomes able to win the classics.
Yahagi: I think editors can be used up to two times too. They hit it off with a rookie, right? That way, they can be used until the next work.
Then, with the next one, the editor becomes too knowledgeable and tries too hard to steer the series in their own direction, and the writer's strengths aren't fully utilized. That's why it's better to get rid of editors as well.
Torishima: That's exactly right. Even for a writer, if they fail three times in a row, it's over. There's no hope for that writer. At Jump, at least.
When I returned to the editorial department, there were a lot of writers like that. They call it a "new series," but the failed writer is just doing something different. But readers do notice. They say, "This is just like the reopening of a pachinko parlor" (laughs).
Yahagi: But I always thought that a new series by a new writer wouldn't sell with that cover (laughs). If you look at the cover and think, "I wonder if this will sell," then in the end, the circulation will drop.
Matsuyama: I still think that.
Yahagi: You think, "I don't want this magazine," right? But those kinds of writers are the ones who will sell in the future.
Torishima: Look at how new artists use four colors (color pages) in Jump's new series. It's tasteless. There are so many color pages, you wonder what they're drawing.
Yahagi: Everyone's bad at four colors at first.
Torishima: Do you know why we ask such bad new artists to draw covers? They're told terrible things even in company circulation meetings. If someone asks you, "The art's terrible. Is this going to be a hit?", how do you respond? As an editor-in-chief.
Matsuyama: From what I've heard, Jump's stance is that it places the utmost importance on producing new artists. The color cover and cover for the first chapter are sort of like a congratulatory gift, right?
Torishima: As Matsuyama just said, it shows Jump's resolve. I want them to feel that the weight of that is truly conveyed in their drawings. But depending on the results of the third week's survey, it could already be a candidate for termination (laughs).
Yahagi: That's right. When a new series starts in Jump, it's become commonplace to do a cover. For both readers and editors. But ultimately, it's about how much thought you put into whether it will sell or not. I think the people who think about that tend to stick around. People who give off the vibe that "Oh, so you're thinking of starting something new in Jump" are also the ones who end up drawing new manga.
It takes courage to bring something new to the world, but only new things have the explosive power
Torishima: But yesterday I saw a story on a BS program about how the Lupin the Third anime wasn't a big hit when it was first broadcast, but became a hit after reruns. Speaking of animation, the same can be said for Gundam and Evangelion. When something new first comes out, it doesn't really resonate with viewers. What are your thoughts on that?
Unosawa: The ones that are a hit with people other than their intended target are the ones that last. I mean, Gundam, for example, was originally released to sell things like Super Alloys to kids. In other words, it was aimed at kindergarten and early elementary school students.
So that content wouldn't exist, it's impossible (laughs). The staff completely deceived the sponsors. Even though Bandai wasn't the original sponsor.
Yahagi: But anime has a pretty good history like that, doesn't it?
Matsuyama: I think Attack on Titan is similar in a way.
Torishima: So, of course, it takes courage to bring something new to the world, but only new things have the explosive power. That's what has changed the times.
Matsuyama: In order to continue creating new things, and perhaps going back to what I said at the beginning, I think a 10-year cycle is too long. I think five years is fine. Five years at the longest. I mean, all the series I love, Ring ni Kakero, Fist of the North Star, and Saint Seiya, all only lasted about five years. Each one of them.
Yahagi: I love them all (laughs).
Matsuyama: That's right (laughs). Each of them, even though they were only five years long, became legendary works that made fortunes. That's what happened with Slam Dunk too.
Yahagi: How long was Slam Dunk serialized?
Matsuyama: About five and a half years.
Torishima: The author of Slam Dunk is here.
Matsuyama: No, no, no, no (laughs).
Yahagi: That's dangerous, that's dangerous (laughs). I don't even know how much I read.
Torishima: But like Matsuyama said, in the old days, Jump would hold an awards ceremony every time a series surpassed a year, and after five years there was a reward of a trip to Hawaii.
Torishima: You can bring your wife, or your assistant, or whatever. Then from the sixth year onwards, you can go wherever you want.
Yahagi: And yet, no one has ever gone (laughs).
Torishima: That, in turn, shows how difficult it is for a series to last more than five years. But now it's incredibly easy. Why did Jump serializations become longer and longer at a certain point? When One Piece came out, Jump's circulation was steadily declining. To put it bluntly, it was number one at a time when the magazine had no power. That's why it seems like it lasted so long.
Yahagi: It's hard to comment (laughs).
Torishima: So rather than blaming One Piece or other manga, I think this has more to do with the vitality and marketability of the magazine Jump itself.
Torishima reveals the brown envelope system used in Shonen Jump serialization meetings
──But isn't Jump an incredibly rare place for a complete newcomer to suddenly burst onto the scene at the forefront? Looking at the entertainment industry as a whole, is there anywhere else like that in the world? While it's possible that a game by an up-and-coming developer happens to sell well on Steam or something, Jump really does have a system that forces newcomers to stardom.
Actually, I previously asked Torishima about Jump's editorial system.
Matsuyama: Was that from covering a serialization meeting?
──I didn't interview him directly, but I asked Torishima about the time when he knew how Jump's system works. What struck me then was the lack of personal discretion. Even with the famous questionnaire system, whether a serialization starts or not isn't something that the editor-in-chief just hires if he likes it, but rather it's ultimately a "system." It all happens systematically. On the other hand, when I hear about other manga magazines, I get the feeling that there's a heavy emphasis on personal discretion.
Matsuyama: As far as I know, the survey is actually just about the results. The most amazing thing about Jump is the serialization meeting where they decide whether or not to start a new series.
From what we've been talking about so far, it sounds like Jump is a place where unknown newcomers just pop up, so it might seem like it would be easy to get published.
I heard about Gotouge-sensei, the author of Demon Slayer: Kimetsu no Yaiba, and she said that she brought her storyboards to the editorial department for over a year, redrawing them and redrawing them, and after over a year it finally came up for the serialization meeting.
And so Demon Slayer: Kimetsu no Yaiba was published. During that time, multiple people are making the decision, looking at the serialization names for three chapters.
Torishima: Maybe the person in charge wasn't efficient?
Yahagi: No, no, no! (laughs)
Yahagi: But that's the same for One Piece. It took about a year for the serialization to be decided.
Matsuyama: A year?! "One Piece"?!
Torishima: It did take. It was the third time it passed the serialization meeting.
Matsuyama: So you went up to the table three times and failed twice?!
Yahagi: I wasn't at the serialization meeting back then because I was still young. So I was watching from below and always wondered, "Why didn't such an interesting manga get approved?"
──Torishima was the editor-in-chief at the time, right?
Torishima: The simple reason it didn't get approved was because the structure was a complete mess.
Yahagi: Now that you mention it, I understand. But at the time, I wondered, "How can something so interesting not get approved?"
Torishima: To put it simply, the process from submission to serialization is as follows:
First, when a writer submits or brings something to the editor, that writer is assigned an editor. The editor then has to appeal to the editorial department about the kind of work the writer is creating and how talented they are. To do this, they may publish it in a special edition, or the deputy editor may say, "There's a slot in the main magazine for a one-shot, so submit it," and the story may be selected from there and published. From there, they look at the votes in surveys and the votes for other serialized works to see which ones have potential and which don't.
Then, there's a desk in front of 3-4 editorial staff members, and this desk will say, "Why don't you try serializing it now?"
The writer and the editorial staff will then come up with three serialization names. If the desk is incompetent and never says anything like that, the writer will probably just make up and submit them on their own (laughs). If the desk thinks, "This has potential," it's brought to the deputy editor. At that point, it's finally decided whether or not to go to the serialization meeting.
Matsuyama: Is it the deputy editor-in-chief's decision whether to bring it up in the serialization meeting?
Torishima: That's the editor's decision. So it's brought up in the serialization meeting, and if three are finished, three more will be started. If four are started, four will be finished.
Matsuyama: Which is it? Are new series starting because one is ending, or are they ending because new series are starting?
Torishima: We look at it in terms of the balance between new manga being started and manga being discontinued. A balance.
Matsuyama: So it's not like, "If three are starting, let's stop three?"
Torishima: No. You decide what to end based on what you want to start. For example, if three manga aimed at younger readers are starting, you should keep the ones aimed at an older audience. That's the kind of balance you consider.
The important thing is to be open about the entire process.
It's called "overwriting," and the person in charge writes the title, author's name, number of pages for episode 1 and episode 2 on a brown envelope, then writes their own recommendation, puts the serialization names for three episodes and a character list in the brown envelope and passes it around.
The editor then writes a comment on the brown envelope saying something like, "I think this will do this time, although there are these problems."
Once the envelope has passed through the editor and is sent to the serialization meeting, the editors and assistant editors from other teams also write their comments in the same way.
Matsuyama: Just like it was in Bakuman!
Torishima: The brown envelopes are then placed on top of each other on the assistant editor's desk. Then everyone in the editorial department sees them.
Matsuyama: So it's completely obvious who wrote what comment.
Torishima: If the editor is clever, they'll think, "This third chapter is weak," and secretly change the name inside the brown envelope. Just in time.
Matsuyama: In the middle of it!? Is that okay?
Torishima: Exactly. Replacing it is okay.
Yahagi: If it improves the story, then it's okay.
Torishima: They'll look at what other editors come up with and say, "This one looks like it's going to lose, so let's give it more exposure." That's what they do.
Matsuyama: They make the changes in real time!
Torishima: Then they hold a serialization meeting and reject each story one by one. They discuss it. It usually takes about two or three hours.
If your editor doesn't really recommend your work, or if the comments they receive are half-baked, it can be a real problem. They'll start to get angry. They'll say, "What's wrong with you!?"
Unosawa: You can say that?
Torishima: Yes, I can. I've even had a letter attached to a brown envelope from an editorial staff member.
Matsuyama: What did it say?
Torishima: "I'm not convinced," or some other direct appeal (laughs). I thought, "I don't want to read this." Everyone would be smiling as they read.
Matsuyama: There was a clear reason for the rejection that was decided in the meeting, wasn't there?
Torishima: That was clearly communicated. But you still weren't convinced.
Matsuyama: You still aren't convinced!?
Torishima: So, the important thing here is that we always openly discuss works within that competitive framework, so people who don't have a solid basis for evaluating works can't make it as executives and won't be trusted. That's why people who don't produce hit works can't become deputy editor-in-chief. That's a very clear point about Jump.
Yahagi: Because they're like, "No one wants to hear what you say."
Matsuyama: Ah, I see. So that group of discerning editors is the strength of Jump's editorial department.
Torishima: Exactly. Also, they prioritize two or three new employees into the Jump editorial department. In return, they always send three out. The editor-in-chief has the right to nominate them. The other editorial departments want anyone who's been around at Jump. Because they're ready to hit the ground running. The fact that you're at Shonen Jump means you've been trained that much. It's a bit like Kajiwara Ikki's Tiger's Den, isn't it? (laughs)
Matsuyama: But that's exactly the same system as in Bakuman. Is it still the same now?
Yahagi: It still is. After all, everyone gathers around Jump, so all the kids who grew up reading Jump and became manga artists bring their ideas to Jump. It's the best-selling magazine, and has the largest base audience, so that's what draws people.
The scary thing about Jump is that Captain Tsubasa suddenly appeared, changing the concept of sports manga.
Yahagi: In terms of ending or not, as I said earlier, you absolutely have to end as many titles as you start.
Matsuyama: Since the number of serialized titles is set, you can't fit more in.
Yahagi: When I was at Jump, I thought the most important thing for an editor was to judge what to end. Starting something is actually quite easy.
Yahagi: The works that are candidates for new serialization are usually interesting.
Torishima: Because they're new.
Yahagi: But then, as Torishima said earlier, you have to think about what else you'll trade it for. You have to think about which manga to end. But what would happen if this were distributed on a manga app? You would have to decide whether to keep everything going for now and start something new. There are so many different manga apps out there now, but I think the reason why no one has produced a mega hit is because of issues like this. That's how difficult it is to finish a work. If a talented author creates something that you think is a little off, it would be best to end it quickly and let them create their next work.
Readers can tell that too, right?
Torishima: Are you referring to "Zombie Powder", which came before "Bleach"?
Matsuyama: No, no, no! (laughs)
Yahagi: At the time, I was really at the bottom of the production team, so I never thought about it like that (laughs). Anyway, finishing a work quickly like that helps that artist move on to their next project. Even in "Jump," there are people who finish their work in 10 weeks and then their next work becomes a hit.
But Torishima said, "You can't have three flops in a row," and I agree.
Matsuyama: "JoJo" is also on its third series.
Torishima: In that sense, Inoue Takehiko also had "Chameleon Jail," and Konomi Takeshi, the creator of "The Prince of Tennis," is on his second. Both of them drew hard-boiled detective stories with their first series, but they failed. So, why did Inoue do well with "Slam Dunk"? It's because he loves basketball. It's that simple.
Konomi was a tennis instructor. It was great that he was asked to draw it for that reason. That's why what you want to draw doesn't always work. It has to be something the artist can draw, not something they want to draw.
Matsuyama: I see! So basketball and tennis were things you could draw, which is why they've lasted so long.
Torishima: Nowadays, sports manga can only be drawn by people who play those sports. The reason is that no matter how many photobooks you bring in and copy, it's always from a third-person perspective. Only someone who has experienced that sport can depict it from the player's perspective. That's the beauty of the protagonist's POV in a manga. It can only be depicted by someone who has played it.
Yahagi: That's really true of sports manga.
Torishima: I realized this when I watched Captain Tsubasa.
The Captain Tsubasa survey did well, and as Yahagi said earlier, I think it came in first place. I think I saw it then. To be honest, I thought, "How could this picture get first place?" (laughs). I wondered what was so interesting about it.
Matsuyama: No, no (laughs).
Torishima: And then, after watching it for a few weeks, I realized it was completely different from any soccer manga that had come before. What do you think? Captain Tsubasa was radically different.
Matsuyama: Was it really that different?
Torishima: It wasn't something that existed before Captain Tsubasa, but it started with Captain Tsubasa. What that means is that the camera is focused on the ball, not the people.
Matsuyama: You're right, the camera is low!
Torishima: What the camera always has to follow is the ball, not the main character. That's why the ball is your friend (laughs).
Torishima: At that time, I was amazed at Takahashi Yoichi's athleticism, or rather, his incredible skill as a manga artist. Readers responded directly to this. I thought it would be tough for sports manga to come.
Matsuyama: Because no one could imitate that. The panels weren't divided vertically or horizontally.
There were no lines, and yet there were about five panels in each spread. But it still guided the reader's eye properly. The camera was definitely pointed at the ball.
Torishima: Sports manga has changed completely since then. In fact, before Captain Tsubasa, there hadn't been a hit soccer manga in the manga industry.
Matsuyama: No, there weren't. They were all baseball manga.
Torishima: So, as Yahagi said, that's what's scary about Jump when newcomers draw it. Because you'll end up with someone who doesn't have the same perspective as before.
"Dragon Ball" aims to be a manga that leaves no lasting impression after reading it
──Earlier, you mentioned that editorial staff at Jump are often rivals. Even though they're rivals, do each person give advice to the other?
Torishima: If you're a desk editor, you have no choice. If you were in the same position, you probably wouldn't.
Yahagi: I think it depends on the person's personality. I'm not one to do that (laughs).
Torishima: I'm basically the same as Yahagi; I don't think I do that. That's because we have different perspectives on manga.
Nobuhiko Horie [※5], who was in charge of Fist of the North Star, likes down-to-earth manga. I dislike that kind of thing and found it a nuisance. Because our tastes are different, even if we say the same thing, it doesn't get through to each other. With Dragon Ball, we aimed to create a manga that leaves readers with nothing after reading it.
※5 Nobuhiko Horie: As an editor of Weekly Shonen Jump, he was responsible for works such as Fist of the North Star. He served as Jump's fifth editor-in-chief. After leaving Shueisha, he became the CEO of Core Mix Co., Ltd. and served as editor-in-chief of Weekly Comic Bunch. After the magazine ceased publication, Core Mix became the editor of Monthly Comic Zenon.
Matsuyama: I think it's fine to have both. That's true, Dragon Ball isn't preachy.
Torishima: My favorite scene in Dragon Ball is when Goku stumbles and says, "Why is my body so light? Oh, it's because I don't have a tail! Oh well." That's Dragon Ball.
Matsuyama: It's damn cheerful. You can't create that. All the writers say, "I'm not that cheerful."
Torishima: A character can't express emotions that the writer doesn't have inside them. If you try to artificially create those, it's immediately obvious.
Matsuyama: Toriyama himself has said that Dragon Ball is full of eccentric characters. When you think about it, that's true. Everyone's a little off. Are those all emotions or characters that reside inside Toriyama?
Torishima: Well, it's true that, basically, Akira Toriyama is Master Roshi and Senbei Norimaki (laughs).
Matsuyama: Ah, that's the basis.
Why is "NARUTO" more popular overseas than "ONE PIECE"?
Torishima: Since you like Jump, Matsuyama-san, I'd like to ask you a question. Why do you think One Piece, which is such a hit in Japan, isn't as big as Naruto overseas?
I'm often asked this question overseas: "Why isn't One Piece as big a hit overseas as Naruto?" Everyone overseas knows that One Piece is great in Japan. But why isn't it a hit overseas? Do you know why?
Matsuyama: In my opinion, what One Piece is doing is, strange as it sounds like Kabuki, but it's based on the code of chivalry. Like old yakuza movies. It has those tear-jerking parts that really resonate with Japanese people, making it more like a play or stage production.
In a sense, Naruto is Hollywood-oriented, including its plot. So I feel like the qualities that sell well overseas are different.
Torishima: You handle both, Unozawa. How's that?
Unozawa: That's true. When I ask people, they always say, "Pirate shows aren't popular." But that's probably not the case. It's strange.
Matsuyama: I think it's because the vectors of what's interesting are different.
Unozawa: To put it another way, I wonder why "Naruto" is so popular overseas.
Yahagi: Because Naruto has blonde hair and blue eyes.
Matsuyama: It's that simple (laughs).
Unozawa: But that's a big deal, isn't it? That's true for us too.
Yahagi: It's cool even to people overseas. The "One Piece" drama is really interesting. On the other hand, with "Naruto," the action and other aspects are easier to understand than the drama. I have children, and when I show it to them, the thing they don't understand the most is the drama. Children feel "good" just by looking at a pleasant picture. For example, if the perspective is effective or the sky is clearly visible, they'll say, "I like this." So, it's about whether something is interesting at a glance.
We've been reading manga for a long time, so we tend to read deeper into what's interesting about manga. But many people overseas don't understand Japanese manga. I think that's probably because they lack literacy or reading comprehension. So, ultimately, I think "NARUTO" doesn't require that kind of reading comprehension.
Torishima: I think the answer is obvious. First of all, it's ninjas, not pirates. People overseas love ninjas. On the other hand, the concept of pirates exists outside of Japan. Next, as Matsuyama and Yahagi said, "One Piece" is a tear-jerker drama. Tear-jerker dramas only appeal to Japanese people. Tear-jerker dramas are disliked overseas because they're too sentimental.
Another thing is that, unfortunately, Masashi Kishimoto is better at screen composition and character presentation.
Yahagi: I think it's a matter of which you choose.
Torishima: It's easy to watch. As a result, "Naruto" stands out when made into an anime, because anime is moving. In that sense, "Naruto" is the manga that's easy to understand overseas. Even though you work with a variety of content, I think there are some things that are understood overseas and some that aren't.
Unozawa: That's right. If you understand that, it's not so difficult (laughs). It's true that at a certain point, manga artists, anime staff, and game developers all start to think about overseas markets. They attend events, etc. And they realize, "This is how you make something for an overseas audience." But it doesn't happen in one go. You gradually understand it as you continue.
Naruto was initially only available in Japan. Then, when it became Shippuden, it became a huge hit overseas. I was honestly surprised that it sold so well, because One Piece had more influence in Japan.
Leaving aside whether Americans would understand pirates, the characters in One Piece look foreign, don't they? I thought that might be why it would work, but it didn't work overseas. You're right, as Yahagi said earlier, I think the blonde hair and blue eyes are a big factor. Blonde hair is very important and easy to recognize. People overseas probably don't think of Goku and Naruto as Japanese. Anime is dubbed into the local language, so it doesn't look like the actors are Japanese. I think that's a big factor, too.
Torishima: That's the stateless nature of manga and anime.
Before starting "NARUTO," I thoroughly analyzed "ONE PIECE."
Yahagi: To begin with, "ONE PIECE" started serialization before "NARUTO." The author also said, "There's no way it can compete with ONE PIECE." "ONE PIECE is just too interesting."
I also thought it was too interesting, but I said, "You shouldn't say that" (laughs).
Yahagi: It had to be number one in Jump. That's what I thought, so that's what I talked about. I started "Naruto" with the idea that, "Well, hopefully it will last for about 10 volumes."
Unosawa: Is that the end of it?
Torishima: Ten volumes means two years.
Yahagi: If it continued that long, the author would have made a certain amount of money, and would be able to prepare for his next work.
Torishima: As an editor, I certainly think about that.
Yahagi: So when we started on "Naruto," I broke down and analyzed what's so great about "One Piece."
Torishima: You analyzed it.
Yahagi: I analyzed it a lot. There are many settings, like "East Blue," "Alabasta," and "Sky Island," but these are like maps in a RPG. What's great about One Piece is that when you enter a new map, the objective for that map is presented at the start, and once you complete it, the protagonist grows, which then leads to the objective for the next map.
In other words, there's a setup at the beginning, and then a punchline, and the cycle repeats. What's more, the next map presents a completely different worldview, so you can't help but get excited.
What's even more amazing is that while the story focuses on the surrounding characters, it also tells the story of the protagonist moving forward. Luffy's ability to gather people together leads to the discovery of One Piece (the great treasure).
To begin with, manga shouldn't just focus on the main character. It's not interesting if it focuses on anyone other than the main character.
So the more I study this manga, the more amazing it becomes. we can't compete. If we were to compete with it, we would have to surprise people with action. I'm consciously trying to do that. The author himself has said, "I can't write a story more moving than One Piece," so I decided to compete somewhere else.
There's no point competing in the same magazine on the same level. So Naruto went in that direction. And the author's artistic skills were incredible.
Torishima: Yahagi studied One Piece before starting Naruto. When I heard that he'd studied Number One, I was impressed.
In fact, when I thought Dragon Ball was hitting a slump, or rather its popularity was starting to decline and I thought that was a bad thing, I decided to study Fist of the North Star, which I don't like, for the first time (laughs). I didn't want to read it at the editorial office, so I read the comics at home (laughs).
It's the number one manga, so it's where the elements that readers like most are. So analyzing the number one manga is like analyzing the tastes and preferences of readers. Therein lies the meaning.
When I was researching Fist of the North Star, I thought, "Wow, this first chapter is well done," and was impressed. It makes good use of the strengths of Hara Tetsuo's drawings.
To put it another way, it's made in a way that doesn't show Hara's weaknesses.
Hara is great at single images, but he can't draw action. He draws with that full-body, gekiga style, so he can't draw action.
What I mean is, because it's drawn as a series of still images, the only way to show the before and after is to hit the pressure points.
Torishima: So the form of striking a pressure point is a form that extracts only the best parts of Hara's drawings. What's more, it borrows from Mad Max and Bruce Lee, so he's good at capturing those images.
How can we pull this off in Dragon Ball? Ah, that's easy.
Toriyama can draw from any angle. Hara can only draw from a certain direction. So we decided to make Dragon Ball a form that allows for free action from above, below, left, right, front to back.
The development of the Tenkaichi Budokai is exactly that. So we tried to more thoroughly and intentionally recreate the Jackie Chan action that originally inspired Dragon Ball in the manga.
Also, because Fist of the North Star is a dramatic story, the development is long, of course. That's because it's determined by the dialogue. We aimed for a younger demographic, and took a speedy approach to presenting the series, changing the plot every four weeks.
I've said this in several interviews, but if the training arc had been longer, it would have been even less popular, so we shortened the training. We dropped all the supporting characters except for Master Roshi and Krillin, and showed the results of their training at the Tenkaichi Budokai.
The Tenkaichi Budokai is a tournament, so each battle is over in one or two weeks. Also, what makes a tournament interesting is that readers can predict where and who they'll meet. We kept readers interested by surprising them with how we subverted those predictions.
Then, about halfway through, when I was hoping to surpass Fist of the North Star, we surpassed it with the episode featuring the fight against Bacterian, who wasn't even a significant character (laughs).
Matsuyama: And that's where it all started. Wow.
Torishima: So in that sense, it's easy to see why Naruto studied One Piece.
Yahagi: We couldn't get past One Piece, though (laughs).
The meeting took two hours just to decide whether to start serializing "One Piece"
──Going back to the serialization meeting we were talking about, which manga had the longest meeting?
Torishima: It had to be "One Piece." "One Piece" took two hours.
Yahagi: There were three storyboards in total that went to the serialization meeting, and I think "One Piece" was the second or third storyboard I submitted. In the end, it didn't pass the serialization meeting, but the storyboard featured a character guarding treasure on an island. The story was really interesting. And really tear-jerking.
──But it didn't pass the meeting?
Yahagi: No. At the time, I was wondering why it didn't pass, even though it was so interesting.
Torishima: The reason why you prepare storyboards for up to three chapters at the serialization meeting is because the basic length is 10 weeks, so three chapters covers one-third of the story. In that case, I want them to show who the main character is and what the story is about over the course of those three episodes.
A manga that can't show that has a poor structure. In that sense, "One Piece" had a poor structure.
Yahagi: Yes. Thinking about it now, I understand why it didn't pass. The story in that draft wasn't about the main character growing or the story moving forward. In manga, the main character absolutely has to move forward, even if it's just a little at a time. For example, it's okay to have an episode where the main character doesn't appear, but instead, the reader should always be aware that the main character is doing something.
Yahagi: Looking at it from that perspective, the draft at that time certainly had an interesting story, but the main character wasn't moving forward. That's why it didn't pass. Yeah, thinking about it now, I understand. But at the time, I wondered why something so interesting hadn't started serialization. I watched it thinking, "They must have had the luxury of not doing it!" (laughs).
Torishima: I didn't have the luxury of not doing it. I was the editor-in-chief though (laughs).
Matsuyama: I guess that's why Kakashi didn't appear in "Naruto" until the third chapter.
Yahagi: No, that's not the reason. But when I was working on "Naruto," I studied other manga a lot.
The first chapter is about how the adults around Naruto view him, and the second chapter is about whether children will accept Naruto. The reason is that in "Fist of the North Star," the first chapter is about that, and in the second chapter he saves the grandfather. In the end, it's about how various people view and accept Naruto. When the main character is accepted by others, they are seen as having grown.
So my original concept was to make it a story about being accepted by various people. That way, even though the second chapter is about a guest character, it seems like the story is progressing.
But in "One Piece," the main character doesn't move forward at all in the second chapter. It's just the story of a man who was saved. I understand that very well now.
Torishima: We probably only discussed "Naruto" for about five minutes at the serialization meeting. "One Piece" took two hours. That's the difference.
Yahagi: "HUNTER x HUNTER" also took about five minutes. It didn't even take five minutes.
In Naruto's training, he thought of things that kids would want to try for themselves.
Yahagi: I studied not only One Piece, but Dragon Ball as well. I wondered why their training scenes were so well done. If you don't show the characters training, you can't explain why they become stronger. But Dragon Ball makes training fun. Isn't it a bit unfair to have them train multiple times the gravity? (laughs)
Naruto also has to train to get stronger, but the training takes a long time. Long training is annoying, isn't it? As Torishima said earlier, it would mean losing votes in surveys. But you also don't want him to suddenly come home saying, "I've been training," right? That would be cheating.
Matsuyama: That pattern was common in Bleach (laughs).
Yahagi: I'm not familiar with that (laughs). There are a lot of other mangas like that. Characters coming out of the cave feeling stronger is something you absolutely shouldn't do. Even kids know that.
I really want to know what kind of effort they put in and what areas they trained to become strong.
Dragon Ball was fun in that way, but I thought it would be impossible to do the same with the atmosphere of Naruto. So I looked at a lot of different manga and wondered what it would take to make a manga that's good at training. I also thought about lessons that kids would actually want to try. I thought about things like moving water inside water balloons and balls at festivals with the Rasengan, and I came to that conclusion after thinking about it a lot. But it's long, so I don't know if it was successful or not.
Matsuyama: When Naruto mastered the Rasengan, the Fourth Hokage made it with one hand, but in Naruto he used both hands because his chakra control was poor. In the end, he made clones to make up for the lack of hands, but that was before he even started training…
Yahagi: It hadn't been decided yet!
Matsuyama: You're kidding me! (laughs) I thought that was so amazing! The way you came up with that answer!
Yahagi: It might have been decided in Kishimoto-sensei's mind. Not at all in my mind (laughs). He'd suggest, "What do you think about this?" For example, he'd say, "Place a balloon and move the chakra inside it." But what happens after that is ultimately up to him…
Yahagi: That's right. There were lots of those.
Torishima: Matsuyama, it's boring if we have too many meetings. We first look at the storyboards that the manga artist sends us from the reader's perspective. The surprise we feel at that time is the reader's surprise. But if you already know the story ahead…
Matsuyama: Ah, that's what I mean!
Torishima: So I create the big picture, but I don't have any detailed meetings.
Yahagi: Torishima really does say, "Don't have long meetings." My meetings were pretty long.
Matsuyama: I heard he was very thorough.
Yahagi: I'd spend four or five hours at a family restaurant, decide everything, and then come home. Then Torishima would get mad at me and say, "Stop that, it's a nuisance for the writer." (laughs)
Torishima: My meetings are over in 30 minutes.
Torishima: I look at the storyboard twice and that's it.
Yahagi: I can't do anything.
Matsuyama: So we just talk about the manuscript and that's it. But aren't you worried?
Yahagi: The general outline is decided, right? They're saying they'll go this far. So how will it end?
Torishima: That's right. There was a game called "Spartan X" [※6] a long time ago. When it came out, I thought, "This is great!" But if I turned it horizontally it would be obvious, so I decided to turn it vertically. That's the Muscle Tower from "Dragon Ball."
※6 "Spartan X" is an arcade game developed and released by Irem in 1984. It was ported to the Famicom by Nintendo in 1985. It is based on the film of the same name starring Jackie Chan, but the game's plot is completely different from the film, and is more reminiscent of the battle at the five-story pagoda that appears at the climax of the Bruce Lee film "Game of Death."
Yahagi: Readers won't like it if the end isn't in sight. Even in dramas, there's that "I'd watch it if I knew how many episodes there were left," right? That's why you want to show them the end beforehand. The five-story pagoda system is useful for that.
Matsuyama: It's the same with the Tenkaichi Budokai.
Yahagi: That's right. Like, if you get this far, you win.
Torishima: If you tell them beforehand that the higher you go, the stronger opponents you'll meet, they'll be able to predict what kind of opponents will appear next. That imagination is a plus.
Yahagi: The same goes for the zodiac signs. In Saint Seiya.
Matsuyama: I thought 12 was a bit too many, though (laughs). So right from the start, it started with Aries Mu repairing his Cloth, and the battle essentially began with the second one.
Torishima: Kids love counting and collecting things.
Yahagi: There are several methodologies like that. But future manga will likely adopt new methodologies, or change because kids today like this, so it'll be exciting to see that.
Today's children read comic books, but they don't read the magazine "Jump."
Matsuyama: What I find strange right now is that in "Demon Slayer: Kimetsu no Yaiba," there are 12 enemies called the "Twelve Kizuki," and among them, there are six upper ranks and six lower ranks, so there's a fun element of numbers. But with "My Hero Academia" and "Jujutsu Kaisen," it's hard to see where they're headed. The number of enemies isn't even decided.
Yahagi: If it were me, I'd say, "Let's make that clear." They have to show the goal for now.
Torishima: From what you've just said, I think those two manga are aimed at an older audience. They should make an effort to attract a younger audience, like Yahagi just said. The manga in "Weekly Shonen Jump" these days are too difficult. Manga needs to be easy to understand, so that anyone can understand it. I've criticized this several times, but the "boys" in "Weekly Shonen Jump" doesn't make sense these days. Boys range from the lower grades of elementary school to middle school. Is Jump currently able to capture this target audience?
Matsuyama: I heard the average person in the survey was in their late 20s.
Yahagi: Younger kids are reading it too, and older kids are following suit. But now… Matsuyama and I are about the same age, aren't we? Did you know that the number of children today is just over 60% of what it was when we were young?
Matsuyama: No, it's less than half. When we were born, 2.5 million children were born per year. Now it's 800,000. It's below 1 million.
Yahagi: There are a few more middle school students, aren't there? I looked it up the other day and was shocked. If it's dropped that much, it definitely can't sell to kids.
Torishima: But Yahagi, even now, CoroCoro Comic is still printing 500,000 to 600,000 copies per month. That being said, I think Jump could do better. When I look at Nintendo and Bandai's Anpanman, I think it's amazing how they never evolve. They're such classic characters. I think we should never forget that character business and how we create works must always target this audience.
Yahagi: I think Jump has always been aimed at fourth graders through junior high school. Nowadays, about 70% of junior high school students have smartphones. In that sense, it tends to retreat a little. I think that's where it's a little different from CoroCoro. CoroCoro is for a generation that doesn't yet have smartphones. We need to think about where the kids who read CoroCoro will go next.
Torishima: It's not in Jump, is it?
Yahagi: But it's not in Sunday, which is also published by Shogakukan, is it?
Matsuyama: Suddenly it's become smartphones. Everyone's on YouTube.
Torishima: Is that because of YouTube and smartphones? Or is it because there aren't any manga that they're willing to read? I think that's an issue that needs to be carefully considered.
Yahagi: I think if there was a manga that was more interesting than watching YouTube, they'd read it.
Matsuyama: When I look at the children of our staff members, they all read CoroCoro. But when they reached the upper grades of elementary school, no matter how many times I asked them, "Don't you read Jump?" they said they wouldn't. They didn't read it, but one day, one of their children was holding a volume of The Disastrous Life of Saiki K.
I thought, "Oh! He's finally reading Jump!" but it turns out he doesn't read the Jump magazine. He's only read the Saiki K. volume.
When I asked them, "How did you find out about Saiki K. without reading Jump?" they said, "The anime." They knew about the series through the anime, but they didn't read it through Jump. Even when I asked them, "Don't you want to read Jump because it has Saiki Kusuo in it?", they said the tankobon was enough for them.
Yahagi: My kids don't read Jump either, not the magazine.
Torishima: What grade are they in?
Yahagi: A boy in his first year of junior high school and a girl in her second year of high school.
Torishima: I'd hate for them to not read it even though they're in their first year of junior high.
Yahagi: But they do love My Hero Academia and Haikyu!!, too.
Matsuyama: They read those in tankobon. And the anime, too.
──Why do you think some people read the tankobon but not the magazine?
Yahagi: I think it's because they can't buy the magazine.
Matsuyama: If they skip a week, they can't buy it, so they get discouraged easily. Whenever I go to a bookstore, the previous volume is always for sale.
Torishima: I don't think that's right. It's okay if I skip a week or don't buy it, so I don't buy it.
Matsuyama: Are you saying that there's a lack of passion in the first place?
Torishima: Or rather, it's because the 19-page chapters aren't written in a way that makes you want to read the next week. To put it more simply, the magazine lacks a lively feel.
Yahagi: You're right about it lacking a lively feel. I don't think readers are reading it that way. It's how they enjoy reading comics. In short, I think it's not being enjoyed weekly.
Torishima: For example, we were talking about CoroCoro earlier, and I think CoroCoro properly incorporates information about YouTube and things like that into the magazine. I wonder if Weekly Shonen Jump is able to incorporate that kind of information that is close to children, and how that information is perceived, into its manga.
If you think about it, isn't Jump created based on a certain preconceived notion that "Jump is like this" or "Jump is like this."
As we've been saying, Jump was supposed to be something new and unprecedented, something that made you wonder, "What is this?" But now, there's no such thing.
Yahagi: That's true. But we can't create that. Kids today are all different from us in their upbringing, lifestyle, outlook on life, friends, and relationships. They don't even get together after school. They don't have experiences like losing their grandparents to death.
Speaking of which, Torishima's generation and my generation were actually different, strictly speaking. The sense of poverty is different too. But when kids today think about poverty, they think, "I don't have a smartphone, but that guy does," so I think there's a gap between them.
Conversely, if 70% of junior high school students have smartphones and 30% don't, I think that's a huge difference. Back when we were kids, the difference wasn't that big.
Torishima: Are you saying there's a capital gap?
Yahagi: It's not like we can't afford to eat or anything like that. When we were kids, for example, we would read Osamu Tezuka's manga at the children's center, or Barefoot Gen in the class library. Kids today don't have those experiences, and there's no place for them. It's completely different. If you ask what kids these days play, they'll play Fortnite together on their smartphones (laughs). It's not us, but today's kids who can create the manga that kids like that read.
Manga these days won't be new unless we consider what kids today are feeling, the challenges they face in life, and so on. I think it's the height of stupidity for a bunch of old guys like us to get together and discuss what kind of manga we should make (laughs).
Torishima: But Yahagi, I'm sorry to butt in, but the media environment children find themselves in today is different from ours. However, compared to adults, each child is under their parents' control and lacks freedom. The fact that children are placed in restricted situations, such as being lonely and unable to play with friends, or having to find time to play Fortnite, is not the same now as it was in the past. It's just that the things around them and what they interact with are different.
Torishima: To put it another way, we should be looking carefully at how manga can help these children.
Yahagi: That's right. That's why I have high expectations for the young editors joining us now. I tell them you know more than I do. "What are your challenges?" After all, everyone has their own challenges, their worries and suffering, and it's precisely because reading manga helps to resolve them. "Being poor" or "not having money" - I think the challenges we faced back then are different from the challenges we face now. So I want to see what kind of manga can solve those problems.
Jump is the only magazine that can do that. There are always two new employees, and then new teenage writers around their age or younger come in to pitch their work. These kids have seen older Jump works like "Demon Slayer: Kimetsu no Yaiba" or "The Promised Neverland," and come back saying, "This is interesting!" I really want to see what this combination of editor and manga artist will create.
Is "Shonen Jump" really the only manga app that "boys" can't read?
Torishima: That's right, when you look at the new employees, do you think they can create something?
Yahagi: I still don't know that. Even I was told many times to quit the company (laughs). Torishima never told me that. Torishima was kind. He wasn't directly involved (laughs).
Torishima: What I'd like to ask Yahagi is, can people who join the company after reading manga really create manga? Shueisha has the brand "Jump," right?
I'd also like to ask Unozawa. It's the same with Bandai Namco, but there's definitely a difference in quality between people who joined the company in the past when it wasn't particularly well-known and people who joined after it has become well-known. So I wonder, can people who join now because they know the company's brand really create something?
Unozawa: I'm 62 years old now, but when I joined Bandai, it wasn't even publicly listed yet. I worked part-time at a toy store during my university days. So I knew a lot about toys, but I didn't know much about toy companies. I joined Bandai because I thought it was a company that seemed casual and would let me do anything (laughs). I thought I'd quit after three years and start my own business. I was that casual. It was around the time anime and games started to take off. It was 1981.
The Famicom hadn't even come out yet. It was works like Yamato, Gundam, and Urusei Yatsura that came to be called anime, and the culture of anime was just starting to take shape around the time I joined Bandai. VCRs also came out around that time. I later got the job of creating anime for video cassettes[※7] as a new business venture within Bandai.
No one else was doing it, so it was a real opportunity. After all, I met director Yoshiyuki Tomino when I was still a new employee. Gundam had been a hit, so we had a meeting to discuss what we should do about the next program. Two other new employees, myself and Miyakawa Yasuo, who joined the company at the same time as me and is now the president of Bandai Namco Entertainment, attended.
The Gundam boom came suddenly, so the senior employees at the company didn't even know the word "anime." Of course they didn't, they thought anime was something kids watched. But we were new employees, and our sensibilities were still young. I hadn't watched Gundam when I was a student, but once I watched it, I realized it was interesting after all. And so, it's scary to think about it now, but the new employees were in a meeting with Director Tomino and saying, "I'd like this kind of mecha to appear in the next Xabungle" (laughs).
We were young and didn't know what to fear, and conversely, there was no one at Bandai, our sponsor, who would say something like that.
We were pioneers in new businesses where no one else had been before. In that sense, there was no one above us, so we had to do everything ourselves. Everyone in their 20s and 30s today always has a senior colleague at work. It came down to having a senior colleague who knew a lot about the work they were doing, who knew everything about games, manga, anime, etc.
※7 The job of creating animation for video cassettes…In 1983, Unozawa was transferred to the Frontier Division, which was in charge of the video software business at what was then Bandai Co., Ltd. This division planned and produced "Dallos," the world's first original video animation (OVA).
Torishima: Listening to Unozawa-san's story, I realized that I didn't read manga either, and I didn't know about Jump. That's why I was able to create manga because I kept asking myself, "Why is manga interesting?" My approach was different from that of previous editors.
Yahagi said earlier that he deconstructed One Piece, but I think it might be a good idea to deconstruct manga again and think about it again. I think we're all too preconceived about what Jump and manga are.
I'd like to ask Yahagi what he thinks about it. Shonen Jump+ started online, and it eventually had an age restriction [※8]. It's no longer "boys." But it's still called "Shonen (boys)." How does that situation look from the perspective of those on the ground?
※8 Shonen Jump+ Age Restrictions: The iOS version of the Shonen Jump+ app is intended for users 17 years of age and older. The Android version is recommended for users 12 years of age and older, and there is no age restriction for the browser version.
Yahagi: That's true… I think there are a lot of difficult aspects to Jump+. Now, including the web, when you think about what sells, you start to think, "We have to carry this kind of stuff," and it's inevitable that there will be restrictions. So I think the question is what to do with it.
Matsuyama: To begin with, Jump+ itself has never been aimed at boys at all, from the start. That includes erotic content and violence.
Yahagi: I mean, it's really quite broad. So, to put it another way, there's no competition between this work and this one, or that this one is more popular than the other. If you just go ahead and think that it's fine as long as this many people are reading it, then editors and writers will receive royalties, they'll have a number of titles they're responsible for, and they'll feel like they're doing their job. So the issue isn't age restrictions or anything like that, the biggest issue is whether we're actually making something that's interesting and will sell.
It's fine to have an age restriction, that's all. As I said earlier, 30% of junior high school students don't have smartphones, so they can't read manga apps. We're making manga for apps that those 30% can't read. When you think about that, you wonder where to publish the manga.
Torishima: I guess that's what it comes down to. So, let me ask a bit of a mean question. Ultimately, what is the motivation for continuing to make magazines? While you're concerned about the magazine's theme and philosophy, you have to keep thinking about things like, "What is manga? Who is it for?" Otherwise your work will become unstable.
New manga artists absolutely need an editor to hone their talents.
Torishima: Actually, I went to Comitia the other day and saw doujinshi for the first time in 30 years. I looked at the submissions. Newcomers are always looking to see where they can make their debut and where they should draw. So you have to keep that in mind as well.
We always have to think about where the readers are, where the artists are, and how to connect these two. The reason I went back after 30 years was because I wanted to see what kind of mindset the people who submit their works these days have, and what kind of people they are. In reality, they're not much different from 30 years ago. They're very serious. In fact, a little too serious. I wish they'd shown a little more ambition, like "Let's hit it big!"
Matsuyama: Does Hakusensha itself have submissions?
Torishima: Hakusensha has it in the form of "Manga Labo!". At Comitia, Hakusensha barely came in third place.
Yahagi: They said, "The number increased because of Torishima."
Torishima: I haven't heard much about it (laughs).
Yahagi: But it's easy to see why people are flocking to digital. I think everyone thinks it's easier to make their debut.
Torishima: This is a homework assignment from Taira (Editor-in-Chief of Dengeki PlayStation Gamer), but there's been a lot of discussion online for a while now about whether editors are necessary. What do you think, Yahagi?
Yahagi: For example, if you have a work and can't make it better, then there's no need for an editor. Also, if you can't produce the work together with the author, then there's probably no need for one. But when it comes to newcomers, and this is just my opinion, editors are necessary. I've seen plenty of them myself. There are tons of veteran writers who are truly amazing. I'm sure you know Mr. Torishima, but honestly, some writers are so good they could just work alone. There are writers who just say “This is interesting, thank you” every single time.
Torishima: I don't think there are any writerss like that.
Yahagi: There are some, but I won't say their names (laughs). But I think editors are absolutely necessary for new authors. I feel sorry for them and it's a shame when they think, "If I have an editor, I won't be able to draw what I want," or, "I'd be happy if I could draw it on my own and get a serialization, so I'll go somewhere that makes it easier."
You often hear the phrase "pitcher and catcher," right? The pitcher is, of course, the author, and the catcher is the editor. The person catching the ball can tell what kind of ball the pitcher is throwing, or if they're not in good form today. Maybe I'm not in good form this week, so I'll stop here.
Torishima was saying earlier that even if a manga isn't interesting every time, as long as the characters are good, it can get votes in surveys. People can be patient if it's just the first or second week. In that case, it's fine to say, "Let's bring it to its maximum in the third week." The catcher is the one to make that decision. It's okay to give up runs here. It's okay to let them hit a home run here. That's what the editor does, and without the editing skills, a writer won't improve.
Without an editor, no one will say mean things. If there's no editor to tell you, "This is crap," and you're surrounded by only fans, it's like a pitcher hitting something against a wall. Even if it's not good, people will just say, "He threw a great ball today."
I don't think there's any athlete who doesn't have a trainer. Because without someone to objectively look at it and say, "This isn't good" or "This is good right now," it's not rewarding, and you wouldn't know what to fix. In that sense, I don't think you need an editor who can't do it. If that's the case, it's better to write it yourself. If you're confident, you can draw it alone, and I'm sure there are some who will be successful that way. But because an editor believes in and loves the artist's talent, what they say is very important.
Another thing is that you can never create an artist. You can't create talent. It's there. So the job of an editor is to hone that talent. I think it's whether you can do that or not. There are the occasional person who's not good at it (laughs). Speaking specifically about Shueisha's editors, this is advertising, but I think it's possible.
Torishima: If I were to take issue with what Yahagi just said, it would be how accurately you can say "NO" in the first place. As we said earlier, the more experienced you are, the easier it is to create something on your own. But if you doubt whether it's really interesting, you'll keep awake at night. The question is how accurately you can express that in the form of evaluation.
When an artist wants to express and communicate, they want to "sell" it to as many people as possible. If that's the case, then the editor is the person who needs to communicate this, knowing where the readers are and how to express it in a way that will resonate with them.
That's the role of an editor. As Yahagi said earlier, talent itself can't be created. But talent can be shaped and transported somewhere. That's the role of an editor.
Yahagi: I talk a lot, so meetings take four hours (laughs). By comparison, Torishima can finish in 30 minutes. I guess I'm wasting the writer's time (laughs).
The talent of a writer is the ability to listen to others and make corrections.
──Is it the case at Jump that even if the editor is terrible, a work can become a hit through the author's efforts alone?
Yahagi: That definitely happens.
Torishima: On the other hand, there have been cases where a struggling manga has bounced back thanks to the efforts of the editor. When Kinnikuman was struggling, a junior colleague of mine was put in charge of it. He was knowledgeable about martial arts, so when he took Kinnikuman on a pro wrestling route, it immediately took off.
So that kind of thing happens. An author's fate can change depending on which editor they have.
Yahagi:
There's also the issue of compatibility. Even if an author has great talent, depending on their editor, they might be crushed, or they might be told that it's not the right fit.
──How, specifically, do you sense an author's talent?
Yahagi: The easiest thing to tell is whether they can listen to others.
Torishima: Exactly. In other words, whether they can make corrections.
Yahagi: On the contrary, that might be the only option. After all, if they won't fix it no matter how much you tell them, it's never going to be interesting.
──So you're talking about the ability to interpret?
Yahagi: Rather than interpretation, it's more about whether they're truly willing to listen.
Torishima: I guess it's about personality?
Yahagi: I guess it's personality. If they're willing to listen, they'll listen even if you spend 10 hours talking to them.
──Are there cases where someone doesn't listen, but their output is amazing?
Yahagi: I think there are smash hits out there. If you focus on the good parts of the author, ignoring everything else, and just depict those. In Jump, you might be able to get 100,000 copies, but you'd never get 1 million copies.
Torishima: That's right. Whether you get 1 million copies or not makes a big difference. There's a big difference between authors who sell over a million copies and those who don't.
Yahagi: You really have a great ear for listening.
──I feel like only the Jump editorial team has the intuition to know the difference between an author who sells 100,000 copies and one who sells a million. To be honest, this kind of talk doesn't really resonate with "ordinary people without that intuition," like myself, no matter what they hear.
Yahagi: I think artistic ability is a big factor, being able to draw convincing pictures. There are lots of people who can do it, but those who are especially good at it. And also people who can hold meetings properly. Those people give off an air of "this could work."
──Manga drawings are completely different from those of an illustrator, aren't they? I interviewed Miura Kentaro a while ago, and one thing I found really interesting was when he talked about the "physicality of drawing." When Guts swings his sword, at what angle does it hit, and how does it fly away? He said he was pursuing a kind of pleasant feeling when looking at an illustration, something that can't be explained in words. When asked where he learned that pleasant feeling, he said it was the depiction of the fist flying towards the reader in "Fist of the North Star." That's different from a punch seen from the side, he said it has a sense of physicality. More specifically, he said it's a way of drawing it as if it's coming towards the reader.
When he saw it, he said he had a "ah!" feeling. I think the "expression of movement" that goes so far as to evoke physical sensations is the crucial difference between manga and other illustrations.
Torishima: More importantly, it's about being able to draw facial expressions. Illustrators can't draw facial expressions. Manga artists don't just draw faces, they can also add expression to the fingers of a hand, for example.
Shonen manga should only depict the protagonist's growth
──I think the persuasiveness of a manga isn't just about the story or plot structure, but also the amount of information conveyed in a single panel, or, as you just mentioned, in the depiction of a picture, which makes a huge difference.
Torishima: And then there's the characters. Come to think of it, why was the main character of "NARUTO" named Naruto and given a headband?
Yahagi: As for headbands, ninjas originally wore headbands, right?
Naruto was just a normal name from the beginning. The main character's name, "Uzumaki Naruto," is very "Jump"-like and typical of a shonen manga. We named it that way without thinking at all. We didn't get a single no from him.
Torishima: The sense of the name and the swirl pattern on the headband. When you glance at the character list, you think, "This guy's good." You think he has great talent.
Yahagi: He's just so natural. Kishimoto-sensei is influenced by many authors, but his drawings are a joy to draw.
Torishima: Going deeper into the topic of characters, as Yahagi said earlier, an author who can't draw the main character is no good. They wouldn't sell over a million copies. When the main character appears, they have to be recognizable as the main character.
Yahagi: Naruto is clearly the main character.
Torishima: That's the main character of a shonen manga. Being able to draw that effortlessly is what talent is all about. Sasuke isn't the main character, y'know.
Yahagi: Actually, I didn't really like Naruto that much at first, or rather, I didn't find any characters I could relate to. If anything, I could relate to Sasuke more. But that's precisely why being able to effortlessly portray a protagonist like Naruto is a talent. How to polish this raw talent is actually quite simple. It's just a matter of talking about what ordinary people like me are looking for.
Torishima: What's more, Sasuke has fewer cracks. As a character, he has few people at his beck and call. So, conversely, when he first appears, his character stands out and is easily defined. On the other hand, the main character needs cracks. If he has lots of people at his beck and call, he can hold hands with different people and do all sorts of things. Whether you can design a character with those cracks is a matter of talent.
Yahagi: Kishimoto himself says that Sasuke is the hardest to draw, such an easy-to-understand character. He kept saying he couldn't understand him.
Matsuyama: In the end, it's because we never really knew what Sasuke was feeling until the very end.
Torishima: We should have killed him off earlier (laughs).
Yahagi: I really understand that. When I was leaving my position, I told him to do something about Sasuke and then we parted ways. So I feel really sorry. In the end, I ran away. I should have taken care of it sooner.
Torishima: Speaking of characters, antagonists tend to be popular. But the protagonist has to appear every time and be kept at the center. Otherwise it won't be a shonen manga. That's the tricky part.
Matsuyama: I also think that the protagonist's growth should be depicted properly. It's absolutely unnecessary to linger on about the antagonist's growth.
Torishima: I don't think the antagonist needs growth either.
Yahagi: You shouldn't just draw the protagonist. I think it's the author's ego to draw other characters because they find them charming. After all, readers are reading because they want to see the protagonist.
Torishima: I completely agree.
Yahagi: Writers often find themselves getting attached to the antagonist more. So when they try to create a chapter, I'd ask, "Does it relate protagonist?" I asked them if the episode was related to the protagonist's growth, and if they said it wasn't, I wouldn't let them do it. They would say, "Well, then, let's force it" (laughs). If this character's growth leads to the protagonist's growth, then that's fine.
That's what's so great about Dragon Ball. It only depicts the protagonist. It ends with Goku until the very end. No one can really understand Cell's feelings (laughs).
Matsuyama: I don't even try to (laughs).
"Naruto's toes in the screenshots from the game don't look cool, so redraw them!"
──I'd like to ask if the role of an editor has changed between the past and now. Take Jump alone: it used to sell over 6 million copies, but now it's down to just under 2 million. In the past, if you became popular in Jump, it was clear that you would automatically sell well, but now we're entering a world where this isn't necessarily the case. As this trend continues, what areas do you think editors should cover and what role do they play?
Yahagi: I've been at Jump for so long, so honestly, I don't know. There's a huge gap between Jump and everything else. Magazines other than Jump also need editors who have the ability to produce authors and their works. If you're not careful, there may be talented authors who don't sell, and I think the ability to produce them may be even more important. Especially in times like these.
Matsuyama: In reality, creating and selling interesting manga is just the beginning of the manga business. At a certain point, probably around Torishima's time, creating manga and creating a big IP became equated. The editor's responsibility is to decide when to turn it into an anime, a movie, a game, and other products besides manga. And also, how long it can be sustained. At first, I think the editor is the one who interacts with the manga artist, but from our perspective, it seems like their work becomes almost entirely producing.
Torishima: Well, that may be how it looks, but you can't get the order wrong. After all, without meeting the artist one-on-one and polishing their work, nothing else will happen after that.
Matsuyama: I see, that's certainly true.
Yahagi: I wasn't very good at producing, so in that sense, I don't have a single memory of ever working on it (laughs). I felt like I was just getting in the way (laughs).
Matsuyama: No, no, no (laughs).
Torishima: Hearing what Yahagi just said, I think the episode in Matsuyama's book is very Yahagi-like, and very much like a Jump editor. "The feet aren't made properly," he writes in the book.
Yahagi: He meant the toes (laughs).
Torishima: "Naruto's toes aren't drawn properly." That's something that doesn't matter in the game, right?
Matsuyama: After all, it's a PS2 game (laughs).
Torishima: But that's what manga editors do, they notice and get hung up on.
Yahagi: That's not true. It's fine for it to move in the game, but when they were taking screenshots and publishing them in the magazine, I said, "Make it look cool." It's only natural that something will look a little weird if you stop something moving. Even with a good anime, if you stop the movement halfway through, the image will look ridiculous. But when it's published in the magazine, it has to look really cool, or it'll be a problem. That's why I asked them to redraw it (laughs).
Matsuyama: From our perspective, we were worried that if we took a screenshot and then made changes to it, what would we do if our customers found out? (laughs).
Torishima: So you ended up redrawing all of the legs?
Matsuyama: Yes, we did. I explained to the staff on site that this is what it means to be published in Jump. They asked, "Is it okay to redraw it?" and I replied, "Otherwise it won't be published" (laughs).
Yahagi: I wasn't lying. Because I think it looks cool when you see it moving. But it looks bad when it's stopped, so I asked them to redraw it to make it look cool (laughs). Because if the illustrations aren't cool, people won't want to buy the game, right? It looks cool in the game. So that's not okay?
Matsuyama: In the end, it turned out to be the right decision (laughs).
Torishima: I can totally relate to that. When I was assigned to supervise Dragon Ball, the moment I saw it…
Unosawa: You said, "Throw it away" (laughs) [※9]. It's just because it didn't look like the original. "It doesn't look like the original, so throw it all away."
※9 This "incident" was detailed in a talk given at Unite Tokyo 2019 on October 26, 2019, entitled "Why Do Publishers and Game Companies Misunderstand? The Terrible Experience I Had with the Dragon Ball Game...or rather, the Lessons I Learned," including comments from Torishima and Unozawa.
Torishima: "Throw it all away" (laughs) for something that cost nearly 300 million yen. That's the same as what Yahagi is saying.
Unosawa: All you see is the art. All you can say is "it looks like it" or "it doesn't look like it." But that's the basic principle, isn't it? You're right. Especially since the editorial department would never accept an art that appears in Jump magazine or V-Jump that doesn't look like the original.
Yahagi: So every time, I would give retouching instructions in red ballpoint pen, saying, "Fix it like this."
Matsuyama: I even drew on my fingernails (laughs).
Yahagi: Then Matsuyama looked puzzled, so I wondered what it was (laughs).
Torishima: Was it a shock?
Matsuyama: It was a shock, yeah (laughs).
Torishima: Well, it depends on how much time the editor in charge spends looking at the visuals, from the storyboard, to checking the manuscript, to submission, and even the finished product. That's why they know it's "different" the moment they see it.
It all comes down to what Yahagi said earlier: "I want it to look cool to the readers." The author has spent that much time on it, so they want to show their best.
Yahagi: Also, the game itself is cool when you see it in motion. But I thought it would be bad if it looked this bad when it was stopped (laughs). It would be a waste.
Torishima: Would they stop it?
Matsuyama: If they didn't stop it, they wouldn't be able to take a photo (laughs).
Yahagi: They said they were just going to post the still image as is, so I said, "That would be a waste."
Matsuyama: So they didn't say anything about showing it as a video in a promotional video or something. But since it's going to be published in Jump, they told me to redraw everything (laughs). So I redrawn all of his toes. By the way, I also redrawn his fingers.
Yahagi: I thought there was no way we could publish a Naruto like this in a magazine. That's because I don't know much about games, though.
Matsuyama: PS2 games at the time couldn't depict five fingers. Because fingers only had about three joints. When I say Naruto's fingers, I mean he couldn't even properly make the shadow hand gesture. I thought that at least it would look like he was making a hand gesture, so I used polygons. But they said, "This hand seal is different" (laughs). And of course it's not (laughs).
Yahagi: If he was moving, it would look that way (laughs).
Matsuyama: He said, "I can't tell where the joints are" (laughs).
Yahagi: You're right, sorry (laughs).
Matsuyama: No, no, not at all (laughs).
Torishima: That's a great story, a great story (laughs). But ultimately, that gets across to readers. The reason is that readers waiting for the game stare intently at the screen.
Yahagi: That's the only information they have.
Matsuyama: Jump doesn't waver.
Yahagi: I wanted kids who were wondering whether to buy it or not to think it was cool. At the time, other games were featured in Jump, and they were actually pretty cool. Like, just the faces were cool.
Matsuyama: All the other games had fists clenched. They didn't need joints. All you're doing is punching with a fist in front of you, so it's not a problem at all. In "NARUTO," there was a lot of finger acting. That's because you're making hand gestures.
Torishima: That's true, in "Dragon Ball," there are no hand gestures (laughs).
I think the future of manga is bright.
Torishima: "There's only a little time left."
Matsuyama: How would you sum up? (laughs)
──I found your earlier discussion about manga apps very interesting. When we talk about apps, the conversation often turns to things like download numbers and market-oriented topics, but Yahagi-san really talked about apps from the creator's perspective. The idea that there's no decision to replace manga apps, so there's no environment for truly good works to be polished, is a very fundamental point, and one that's not often discussed.
Yahagi: I think some very talented people are emerging from manga apps. However, isn't the density low? Not that many are emerging.
── I've always wondered why it's so difficult for online media to produce truly hit works. Online media is huge in terms of the number of viewers alone. But I think there must be some reason why we haven't seen truly hit works despite that. It's not a matter of the market or anything like that, but I think one of the causes is probably the system and atmosphere on the part of the creators.
Matsuyama: Nowadays, authors get a response from readers just by posting their work online. I think this is just a misunderstanding that "I don't need an editor, I get tons of likes from readers."
Torishima: When someone with such a good reputation compromises halfway, they're sure they have a lot more to offer, but they're not seeing their hidden potential. I think that's a waste. As Yahagi said earlier, having a catcher means you can see the artist's qualities, not just the speed of the ball, but also things like the sharpness of the ball when they receive it.
Unosawa: There are so many different things on the internet, and even on YouTube, for example, as long as it's entertaining, isn't that enough?
Things worth paying for, like manga volumes and games, have something that represents the artist's creativity or artistic merit. Everyone, even children, understands that if they're moved by something, they should pay money for the creator. Buying it means the serialization or anime will continue. Will you be willing to pay even just 1 yen? I think that's the difference between amateurs and professionals.
But now, amateurs can make money. Whether it's e-sports or YouTubers. People who play and comment on games make more money than the people who create them. That's a bit frustrating, as someone who has created things.
Matsuyama: But that's really only a handful of exceptions, isn't it?
Unosawa: Jump uses surveys, just like social games, but it's by no means just that. That's all there is to the internet. It's all about the number of followers and viewers, how many people came in that day. Nothing authentic will come out of that. It will never remain.
Yahagi: I think so too. I do, but on the other hand, there are kids these days who aspire to be e-sports players. My daughter is always on Instagram, and my son is always watching videos. He watches Fortnite videos too. I read a lot of manga on my smartphone. I read vertical manga too. But my daughter says it's too much trouble. What kind of things will these kids create? Only they themselves know what they'll enjoy next.
In that sense, it's the mission of everyone here to nurture the next generation of players when they come along. Matsuyama, you can't stay a director forever (laughs). It's also good to ask young people, "What do you like?"
Matsuyama: Of course, of course! They're letting young people take on more and more of the work.
Yahagi: I left editing at 38. Jump is a fast magazine. That's why I think that even more.
Torishima: I left at 38 too.
Unosawa: I guess you really can't get past 40.
Yahagi: That's why I thought it was amazing when I heard that Torishima is currently looking at the works of new artists at Comitia. I also look at the serial titles of young artists and give my opinion, but I also feel like, "If young people today say this, does that mean they're right?" It's not like I'm getting old or aging.
So, conversely, I think it's our own strength that allows us to appreciate the works of young people. Because when my parents look at the manga young people create today, they would never say it's interesting (laughs). So I want to be able to feel that, "This is how it is now." But I think the future of manga is bright.
Yahagi: Because even now, manga is the medium that produces the most IP. It rarely comes out anywhere else. Plus, paper still reigns supreme. That's because I work on print magazines (laughs). But for the reason I mentioned earlier, print magazines have a set number of pages, so they have to finish as many as they start, which makes them more equal and allows for a self-cleansing effect.
── That's all for today. I think we've heard a lot of interesting stories. And I think we've gotten quite honest about some of them. Thank you for your hard work! (End)
