An Archive of Our Own, a project of the Organization for Transformative Works
Chapters: 5/9
Fandom: Black Panther (Marvel Movies), Marvel Cinematic Universe
Rating: Mature
Warnings: Graphic Depictions Of Violence, No Archive Warnings Apply
Relationships: Namor of Talokan/Shuri (Marvel)
Characters: Shuri (Marvel), Namor of Talokan (Marvel), Ayo (Marvel), Namora of Talokan (Marvel), M'Baku (Marvel), Victor von Doom, Original Characters
Additional Tags: Fluff and Angst, Mystery, Political Alliances, Romance, Amnesia, Forced Proximity, Enemies to Lovers, Hurt/Comfort, Social Commentary, sensitive social issues, Slow Burn, Out of Character, Post-Canon
Summary:
When Shuri learns of Namorās passing, her world is plunged into chaos. Unable to tell friends from foes, she seeks out new alliances with new players on the global stage.
But, when Shuri becomes the target of an assassination attempt, she finds herself courting the ally she believed she lost, the only one she ever really trusted- Namor. However, everything has changed. He has no memory of who he is or where he belongs. These strange circumstances all point to a larger plot to remove her allies from the chessboard. She is determined to keep his return a secret from those who plot against them until they are ready to face their enemies together.
Check out these amazing nashuri fics! Please make sure to read the tags/rating before doing so! And remember to leave the authros some love!Ā
Crowns Lost and Gained by neonal
Summary:Ā When the avengers successfully brought back the missing half of the universe, Shuri felt happier than she had in years. Her umama and ubhuti had returned. The two people she loved and cared about the most in the world - the two people she had lost all those years ago - had finally returned to her, unharmed and healthy. She was so thankful she even spared a prayer to Bast, the goddess she had long since turned her back on. But now, barely two weeks later, they seek to uproot her life and take her throne.
When Shuri loses her crown, she finds sheās willing to do just about anything to get it back. Even if that means going against her own family.
Sunglasses by tacotime
Summary:Ā Ixchel, the Mayan goddess of love, fertility, and childbirth, is desperate for an offering. Upon Bastās advice, they plot a positively devious plan.Worried about the goddessā displeasure, Namor visits Ixchelās temple on the surface world. Shuri volunteers to help him - only to regret it when they find themselves trapped, as Ixchel requires more than a simple prayer for her to release themā¦
You Belong To Me by DaisyBuchanan143
Summary:Ā Namor is Talkonās youngest head scientist at age 25 and heir to his motherās billion-dollar vibranium mining company. Heās sent to study under Dr. Shuri Udaku, the most decorated scientist in the world. What could go wrong?
Aqueous Incandescence by La_Maripoza
Summary:Ā A subtle spark in his obsidian orbs, Shuri blinked, and it was gone. The Water Kingās fingers gripped her chin, nudging it upwards. Shuriās skin tingled mercilessly at his touch.
āSacrificial lamb stuck in an underwater kingdom.ā He tilted her head up further, boring into her eyes. āWakandaās only saving grace from my wrath is the maiden fighting for her life upstairs.āJerking away her chin from his grasp, she took a painful step back.Ā
āI am no sacrificial lamb. Do not demean me.ā
He mimicked her action and also stepped back. Shuri let out a breath, her heart beating against her chest like that of a talking drum. From what? Fear? Closeness? Or the understated threats? The Water Serpentās eyes raked over her form, painfully slow.
ā
After a failed rescue attempt in Talokan, only one hostage is returned to Wakanda, resulting in Namor only trusting the youngest member of the Royal family. Old and new enemies emerge as the Feathered Serpent Godsā desire grows for the Princess. With a tenuous agreement, the two Kingdoms must work together under the eventual threat of the US governmentās insatiable search for vibranium. Takes place during Wakanda Forever and will follow major canon events.
to show you the whole sky by A_Spark_Of_Hope
Summary:Ā Shuri agrees a political marriage to Namor is the best option for their two kingdoms, even though every time she sees him, she is torn between budding feelings and the knowledge that heās responsible for her motherās death.
Namor is eager to make his new marriage work. But how can he do that when every time his wife looks at him, her eyes are filled with confusion and pain?
**
Or: a marriage of convenience where everyone catches feelings at different speeds
The Promise by Toonmili
Summary:Ā After the intense battle with the Princess of Wakanda, Namor finds himself in the throes of an all-consuming obsession that is believed to be tearing him away from his people. He recruits Princess Shuri, the object of his preoccupation, to help him execute a dangerous plan that will reaffirm or slowly dismantle their complex relationship in the eyes of the Talokanil.
Yueadu by Nocturne1980
Summary:Ā Shuri turns to Namor to save Wakanda just as he predicted she would. But can she honor what he demands in exchange?The one where Shuri flakes out on her promise and Namor is Namor.
An Archive of Our Own, a project of the Organization for Transformative Works
I'm back with a little one shot. Just something I wrote quickly.Ā
Chapters: 1/1
Fandom: Black Panther (Marvel Movies)
Rating: Teen And Up Audiences
Warnings: No Archive Warnings Apply
Relationships: Namor of Talokan & Shuri (Marvel), Namor of Talokan/Shuri (Marvel)
Characters: Namor of Talokan (Marvel), Shuri (Marvel), Original Male Character(s)
Additional Tags: Enemies to Lovers, Enemies to Friends, Espionage, Fake/Pretend Relationship, Hurt/Comfort, Angst, Jealousy, Post-Canon, Canon Compliant, Big Bad Wolf - Freeform
Summary:
During her stay in Haiti, Shuri finds herself alone for a week. Left to grapple with her thoughts on her own for the first time, she seeks a distraction to pass the time.
All is going as planned until Namor decides to interrupt.
Re: Namor x Shuri working from a storytelling standpoint
I stumbled on a post trying to give an analysis of how Namor and Shuri "don't work" from a storytelling standpoint. After reading several of the objectionable points made and realizing I've seen them all before, I felt like trying my own hand to exemplify why these kinds of criticisms against "Nashuri" don't actually work. I didn't directly reblog to avoid being convoluted or dogpiling, but I'll be responding to specific points throughout.
Direct quotes are in orange
Linked sources and further information are in green
Warning: This article has many layers, musings, and points. After all, it's essentially a master collection of material. If you just want to jump to a certain point, you can. There are subtitles for every point.
The Oxymoron of Improbable and "Non-Sensical" Story Writing
In the context of specifically Wakanda Forever's story and nothing else, yes: as of now, Namor and Shuri being a romantic couple does not make "sense."
However, there is no such thing as a ship that doesn't make sense from a story-writing perspective.
With your pen, reality can be shaped according to your whim, or elements can be bent to fit the mold of a given reality. Story-writing-wise, anything can happen, and anything can work with the proper execution. A good writer knows how to suspend the reader's disbelief and make the seemingly improbable, seem probable.
Namor and Shuri already have the ingredients for chemistry and compatibility as characters, which are the two essential requirements in relationships. The media they're in gives you the room to potentially address their circumstance, like reviving Ramonda (coming back to life is no foreign concept to Marvel) or building off of the concepts already there (e.g., the Ancestral Plane or "dead not meaning gone"). There are also AUs.
Saying otherwise is simply putting a cap on your creativity and demonstrates a sheer lack of imagination.
Why Do People Ship Namor And Shuri?
To answer this question, Namor and Shuri:
Have undeniably strong chemistry. That was the first thing that had people question what their relationship would be. You don't have to register this as inherently romantic, but they have chemistry nevertheless.
Deeply connected with and paralleled-equaled one another. Shuri opened up to only Namor about her true grief. With Ramonda, Shuri closed herself off. When her mask cracked, she lamented that if she sat and merely thought of T'Challa, she'd burn the world and everyone in it. The ancestral plane, tethered to her subconscious and emotional state, lit up on fire the moment N'Jadaka mentioned T'Challa. Yet... Shuri felt that she could be emotionally vulnerable to Namor, seeking solace and answers within him. She could not only think of but also talk about T'Challa with Namor. This is after Namor was, in exchange, completely vulnerable and honest to her, showing her his scars and his cherished nation. Both characters did things they wouldn't do with anyone else. They felt seen and heard by the other. That is a beautiful testament to the bond they were forging before uh, yeah.
Shuri was healing in Talokan. It is directly said in the script Shuri was better than she was before she left, but the movie let it be a "show, don't tell." We already established she was finally unveiling her grief to Namor, but Talokan was also an escape for her. Her behavior and attitude were a sheer contrast to how she was earlier in the movie. Shuri was shown beaming, marveling at, and practically glowing as Namor showed her his world. Approximately, she genuinely smiled 11 times in under 3 minutes. She forgot her worries. The tension rolled off of her and let herself go "with the breeze". Her admiration and sense of wonder made him smile too. She was taken care of, a shame that her reason of stay wasn't preferable.
Shared several purposefully intimate moments.
Look hot and are hot together. Argue with a wall.
Can be the strongest, most unstoppable MCU power couple to date.
Create a rich, ethnic, and main poc ship and representation between a black African woman and a brown-skinned indigenous man. That's not common at all, and the thought of their cultures being connected, becoming one through their union is hair-twirling inducing. The idea of them creating a new era filled to the brim with their respective cultures and identities together, with them learning from one another, is very interesting.
They have many, many classic romantic-fantastical tropes poured into the batter that is their dynamic. You may have heard the comparisons to Beauty and The Beast (say thank you, Riri!), Aladdin ("I Can Show You The World"), Peter Pan and Wendy (Namor is deemed of a "Peter Pan" archetype. "Peter Pan" lost his Wendy, who is Shuri in this case. See Inframundo.) and Hades-Persephone.
The only reason why they're on opposite ends is due to outer forces and unfavorable circumstances at work. There's something interesting about their nuanced tragedy. There's a fun intrigue to find a way to "fix" what seems broken beyond repair, through understanding, love, character development, and healing.
Have a romantic anthem: Con La Brisa is a tender love song specifically created based on the underwater scene between Namor and Shuri. Foudequesh revealed that the meaning of the song was showing someone the sun for the first time.
Additionally, Namor and Shuri having romantic chemistry is not baseless. It was initially toyed with. Though they decided to characterize their relationship a bit differently and focus on grief-shared trauma, elements were still left in to give their relationship complexity. The way they relate and the things they did gave romantic undertones you can't just pluck out. Micheal P. Shawver, a colleague of Ryan Coogler and an editor of Wakanda Forever, said this much when asked about the possibility of Namor and Shuri having romance in their cards.
Note how Ryan Coogler, a writer and director of both Black Panther, even apparently thinks that Namor and Shuri are not unsuited for one another even then.
You can also view the original script where Namor is described as "charmed" and "smitten" with Shuri. It's only natural people pick up the pieces purposefully left behind.
Clarification Notes
Before we jump into this, there are things you need to know.
Note 1: None of this is bashing or permission to bash Ramonda, Riri, Shuri, or Nakia. They were justified and operating under grief and dramatic irony if you look at it from every perspective. Currently, this is just clearing up Namor and Talokan's perspectives because that is what's being targetted and unceremoniously characterized, but everyone has a case for them.
Note 2: This doesn't mean you need to ship Shuri and Namor. It's explaining why some do and clearing up misconceptions about their dynamic as well as individual characters. Your takeaway should be this and valueable information on Black Panther, not a decree of what you should or shouldn't ship.
Positive and Negative Chemistry
"Positive" and "negative" chemistry is confusing terminology at best and doesn't exist at worse. It's either you have or lack chemistry. There are also two different kinds of chemistry: platonic and romantic.
When describing how characters wouldn't be compatible in a given relationship, you may be looking for the term, "compatibility".
Chemistry: magnetism, attraction, and natural connection. Compatibility: a more "logical" component: your degree of harmony and cohesiveness.
You can have chemistry without compatibility, and compatibility without chemistry. Healthy and long-lasting relationships have both.
Namor's view of Shuri
Namor does not view Shuri as an equal, despite their similarities.
Pause. Namor does view Shuri as an equal. Shuri is arguably the person he respects the most.
The idea That Namor-Talokan does not relate, respect, connect with, or even view Shuri-Wakanda as human directly goes against the meta-pillar theme of Wakanda Forever.
You said it yourself:
"these are fictional characters (who represent real-world dynamics)"
āWe talked to so many experts and really made relationships with them, because there was a lot to go through,ā says Beachler. āThere are a lot of parallels between Africans and Latin Americans as far as the colonization of their communities and cities, the enslavement of their people, the lies that were told about their culture, the misinterpretation of their words, and the ways they were made out to look demonized in order to elevate a European country.ā
Besides honoring Chadwick Boseman, motherhood, and the dead not being gone, grief, trauma, the effects of colonialism, and the connectivity between African-Mesoamerican indigenous culture are central points of the film. Namor and Shuri and by extension Talokan and Wakanda are explicitly supposed to relate and be equal to one another for this reason. You are supposed to struggle with choosing a side, and Namor is a complex antagonist or even anti-hero rather than an actual villain (An antagonist just opposes or challenges the protagonist in the context of the story, they're not inherently good or evil. Villians are inherently evil and with malice.) Their fight is supposed to feel wrong, intimate, and emotionally charged, unlike most generic action hero fights. They are natural allies, and therefore unnatural enemies.
Namor bent in ways he wouldn't have with anyone else.
"If you see cats, jaguars or panthers when they go hunting they wag their tails because it is a way of hypnotizing the prey, then that image is what happened to Namor, that someone did like that with the tail."
Namor virtually said he was hypnotized, but the Spanish and English translations didn't quite convey that cat-involved metaphor (although keeping the crux of his lament.).
Namor could have killed Riri the moment she touched Talokan grounds, but he showed temporary "mercy" because of Shuri and Shuri alone. He didn't need Shuri's permission nor did he have to communicate with Shuri. Riri was in his domain, Shuri did not really have much power there, yet he treated her as if she did.
"It goes back to the point of him never seeing Shuri as human or recognizing her feelings as valid."
Two of Namor's quotes in the movie alone prove this wrong:
"I know you wanted me to spare the life of the scientist (recognizing and acknowledging what she wants), but now you see what I have to protect."
"So you can understand why I need to kill the scientist."
He didn't need to seek her approval or give her the ability to negotiate with him, yet he did and on top of that dressed her in the finest silks fit for royalty, consistently trying to convince Shuri like her opinion mattered, and that he wanted her on his side. It wasn't that he didn't "recognize her feelings as valid," he just felt that, based on how many of their lives are at stake, he couldn't risk it (Movie quote: "I cannot risk that, princess...").
He was absolutely gobsmacked when she said, "Take me instead." He wouldn't speak then, uncharacteristically breaking eye contact. When he could finally speak, he couldn't answer her directly, his voice awkwardly raised an interval and suddenly, unnecessarily, speaking with his hands.
Shuri wanted to see Talokan, and Namor, the pessimistic isolationist who never let a surfacer step foot in Talokan, immediately caved into her desire. There was no reason for him to do that and it demonstrates an immense level of trust. He also, quite literally, showed her the keys to his kingdom. He waited until she was beside him, looked to see if she was watching him, and then did his hand sign in the rock to open the "doors" to Talokan.
As writer Joe Cole said in The Movie Report panel interview, Shuri demands him to make the right choice that was yielding, and he does yield to her, which wasn't something he'd ever consider in his hundreds of years of being alive.
Namor gives his beloved mother's bracelet to Shuri
Fen was Namor's beloved mother. Her memory is something he held dear to him. The bracelet he gave not only was the last piece of her left with him, but it directly signified his birthright as king, was a priceless national object, and was made with their sacred plant's fibers.
He gives it to Shuri twice. One immediately to hold when he sees she's attracted to it, two he ties on her (after receiving her non-verbal permission, another sign of respect) for her keeping as a "gift of gratitude."
Namor saw his mother in Shuri
Namor saw his mother in her highest state, induced by Shuri. She was unchanged, young, and in their homes, outstretching a hand to him as Shuri metaphorically did.
Namor paints the mural of their fight
in his personal hut no less, where he preserves their history and culture. He paints them entangled in a battle with neither side besting the other. She is the Jaguar-Black Panther, a revered, highly respected animal in Maya culture with connections to godhood, and he is a mere human, humbling himself in a sense. That speaks volumes, and it's furthered when he tells Namora that Shuri had every single reason to kill him. He also speaks very highly of her, stating she's the strongest person on the surface, of the strongest nation.
None of this makes sense AT ALL if he supposedly did not view Shuri as a respected equal, let alone "human." If he somehow doesn't see her as a "human", then he sees her as higher than.
Talokan's "Violence" to Wakanda's "Pacifism"
"Namor and the Talokanil, immediately resort to violence and war when they feel a threat from the surface world. But since no one knows they exist, this threat is hypothetical for now."
This is not true. Talokan has constantly been evasive with relocating being their immediate resort. In the film, Namor says, "Talokan will not move, again" for a reason. They didn't "feel" a threat, there was a threat. People found the Vibranium within their domain and were drilling to seize it. War was a later development after Shuri took killing Riri off the table, which is what Namor initially wanted to do (in the script, this is furthered, with him saying he'd prefer picking off one person to outright war.).
"A direct contrast to Ramonda and Shuri, who in the face of real eminent threats, resorted to peace and showed their aggressors mercy."
Ignoring the insinuation that Namor was not faced with real eminent threats when he was, there is a reason for that contrast. Remember that while Wakanda was being threatened, they have never been conquered or forced to move. They're confirmed less vulnerable than Talokan, who does not have shields and lives in the ocean. They can afford to reveal themselves. Talokan cannot, and they're collateral damage to Wakanda's choice of revealing themselves and the power of Vibranium to the world.
The beginning village of Talokan has been conquered and mass murdered before the rebirth into the blue people we see now, with their ancestral lands plundered and made into slave houses. Namor almost died and was sick in the womb because the conquistadors brought smallpox. His father who he never met died due to their disease. He witnessed countless treacheries, betrayals, and wars from the surface lands. Namor spent his entire childhood watching his mother grieve due to them. As a result, Talokan has a more pessimistic perspective compared to Wakanda's privileged optimistic one.
So yeah, Talokan isn't going to play patty cake with their active aggressors who are trying to plunder them. Nor should they, because Namor is proven right with America actively seeking to destabilize Wakanda under the guise of retrieving Riri (see the meeting Ross has with government officials), and the ending with Val.
Wakanda wants to delay inevitable war and minimize the loss across the board but will go to war if pushed, which is fair. Talokan is tired and ready to give the smoke, striking fast and hard to merely end what threatens them once and for all after centuries of patience and displacement. That is also fair.
"Namor, despite wanting Wakandaās help with his mission, ultimately doesnāt view Wakanda with anymore sympathy than he does the rest of the world. He has made it clear that he hates the surface world and everyone in it, which includes the Wakandans."
You're right, he doesn't sympathize with Wakanda. There's nothing to sympathize with. He empathizes with them, a stronger feeling and sense of connection than sympathy. He admires Wakanda and feels a sense of kinship, maybe a bit of jealousy (Joe Cole). To him, Wakanda was a threat if they weren't on his side. Why?
A) Wakanda (unintentionally) compromised them by revealing themselves to the world and the power of Vibranium. Now everyone else, armed with that dangerous knowledge, is looking for it to wield it. Wakanda can more or less protect their Vibranium, claiming ownership of it when it's on their lands, they have the power to, and they're the ones who revealed it. But what can Talokan do? They'd be forcefully revealed in some way and be subjected to attacks just because they dared to also have Vibranium.
B) Wakanda is compromising them again by harboring Riri, who is the one source capable of the machine the FBI is currently chasing down. There is no guarantee Riri would stay with them (Riri is not their citizen, and America can easily use her as a means to undercut Wakanda and force them to either give vibranium or fork Riri over, so she can build the machine, and they'll get vibranium anyway through Talokan) or wouldn't rebuild her machine. The solutions Namor could fathom were either taking Riri out of the equation for sure (a case of killing one person and saving everyone else) or taking out the threat of those who seek to exploit her.
C) Wakanda was already shaking hands with nations that wanted to destabilize and plunder them, and will want to do the same with Talokan.
D) Wakanda is the only nation that can rival them that now also knows of their existence. If they're not allies with that information, that's dangerous and makes Talokan vulnerable.
With all things considered and understandably from Namor's perspective, there's no "in-between" here. You can't be "neutral." You either are with them or facilitate your own and their destruction.
This doesn't mean he hates Wakanda or Shuri. It is nothing he wants, but something he perceives he has to do for his people, as their protector, father, god, and king. In the script, this is only further exemplified, by his, "I donāt want it to come to this. But I will not hesitate."
Namor Killing Ramonda
His line of "You are queen now" showed that he was never willing to conduct business with Ramonda likely because she was the only person on the surface world who bested him when she lured him out of Talokan(...). He was simply looking for an excuse to get her out of the picture."
At that point, Ramonda threatened to reveal Talokan. Ramonda purposefully played decoy with him and sent in a war dog to infiltrate their nation and retrieve not only their national threat but the princess who has all of their secrets without a sense of closure. The result of this act was the death of two of his "children". Did you just gloss over that fact, because Ramonda didn't just "lure" him away? He wasn't throwing a fit because he was bested. People literally died? He was cradling a dying child in his arms?
Namor was "willing" to conduct business with Ramonda, proven by the simple fact that he approached Ramonda and gave her the shell to contact him. Namor went out to answer Ramonda's call in the first place when he could've just ignored it when he had what he wanted and more in Talokan.
Namor saying "You're queen now" doesn't at all connect to him not seeing Shuri as an equal. That doesn't make any sense. If anything that undermines your point, because before Shuri is officially crowned, he immediately sees her as the sovereign leader, much like himself.
He says "you're queen now" because Shuri is likely the queen now. It's simple math: Shuri is the heir apparent. There's no royal before her now that is leading.
"It's also another reason why he killed Ramonda with no hesitation despite knowing what he knew about Shuri"
Again, Namor did what he did with no hesitation or care if Ramonda is collateral damage because in his eyes, Ramonda betrayed him, he was acting as a vehicle of vengeance for two souls, and he was defending Talokan. When she stepped in front of Riri glaring him down, that was his final nail in the coffin (no pun intended, please, no pun intended.). It was never personal to him nor did he look at it as him killing Shuri's mom. He was playing the role of a protector and king in conflict with another royal, but of course, it's inherently personal to Shuri because that royal happens to be her mother.
Ryan Coogler confirmed it was not personal for him in the Disney+ movie commentary, Tenoch Huerta says killing the queen was never in his initial plans, and Namor says this himself in the script, explaining he did what he did because the queen "betrayed" him with not only a guard, but a child dying as a result when Shuri was never in danger ("you were safe in my care").
Recklessness With Grief
No, Shuri did not have a better handle on how she externalizes her grief until the final of the movie.
"She recognizes that even though she is angry at TāChallaās death, the rest of the world doesnāt deserve to feel the extent of her wrath."
That's not at all what she recognized at any point. "It will not be these clothes, I'll burn. It will be the world. And everyone in it."
"Even when Namor does kill her mother, she rightfully directs her anger at him."
At the expense of her people's safety and risk of eternal war. She tells M'Baku straight up that nothing else matters except what she wants, and she wants Namor dead. She threateningly pointed a finger, giving M'Baku no choice and leaving him with the command to help her in her endeavors, even if it meant sending them all to their watery graves.
Nakia: "If you go to war for vengeance, it will not fill the hole left from your loss. It will only grow larger, and it will consume you!"
Shuri: "It already has."
With every blow she landed and exchanged with Namor, we cut back to Wakanda receiving blows and being backed up into a corner.
Namor and Shuri were on collision courses where they were destroying themselves, each other, and their people by not handling their grief properly, being consumed by their vengeance, and committing destructive actions ignited by their pain.
Shuri just later had the strength to break that cycle by recognizing what he said to her back in Talokan ("broken leaders"), their connectivity, and shared traumas. She saved them both and quietened Namor's own flames in the process.
"Sure, she has some outbursts at Nakia and Mābaku, but she never really alienates them."
Do not downplay the fact that Shuri is dangerous and was not healthily dealing with her grief, but instead was on a path of destruction. Ryan explicitly states that Namor shares this with Shuri: they're both trying to process and similarly struggle grappling with their grief.
Why else do you think Ramonda took Shuri outside to touch grass and do a ritual? Shuri was not ok. From the moment her beloved brother died, she was not ok. She was not magnanimous to the world. She was angry at it. She thought that there was no point in the Black Panther mantle or herb when T'Challa isn't there. As M'Baku even pointed out, she buried herself in her technology as a coping mechanism, which she ought to stop.
Shuri does alienate Nakia. Not only does she snap several times and harshly shove Nakia off of her after she took the herb, but it's also shown at the beginning of the movie she's ignoring all of her calls. In the script, she explicitly considers Nakia dead, immensely angry she missed T'Challa's funeral.
She doesn't listen to M'baku, but consistently tries to push him and his wisdom away during Ramonda's funeral. She even pushed away and tried closing herself off with Ramonda in the lab and river scene.
Namor's Desire
"All he wanted to do was push her to the extremes of grief so she would become reckless as she was."
Namor's true desire was safety for his people. He didn't want to move again or have to change who they are to survive. Namor later had a genuine desire for an alliance with Wakanda, a nation he canonically admires. Namor didn't want to "push her to the extremes of grief to become like him" because she already was like him. He just wanted to channel their shared feelings of reaping "destruction" to the common enemy.
āI think that a lot of the emotion that I was trying to put into it [Talokan] was this idea that Namor is not wanting to move his people again,ā says Beachler. āSo there is also, this sense of grieving, even there, of this idea of being encroached upon by humans, who are somewhat inconsiderate of them.ā
"Instead you see a mutant emerging not out of genetics, but out of the crucible of oppression. Whereas mutants in the comics are born, in Wakanda Forever, they are made. And that history isn't the side story, it's the entire story. It explains Namor's rage, his desperation, and the path he takes which eventually leads to a collision with Wakanda."
It was never a case of Namor only loving and can love his people while hating everyone else, seeing them as inhuman. Namor was prioritizing what he loved the most above what he may also like, admire, or empathize with. He was fulfilling the role given to him he was forced to take from the moment he was born.
"I mean, āno loveā is literally his name."
Let's slow down a bit and mayhaps rethink a little on using the meaning of his alias "Namor" as a point about him being loveless, no? That was a "name" given to him by a racist, slave-owning Conquistador priest who also called him, "son of satan" all the while he was burying his mother, the only and last immediate family he had. Namor took that alias to empower himself and take away the sting. He clearly does have love when all of his life he has been a selfless agent for his people. He thought a single or two lives were worth war over. Yes, he explicitly said it was to convey he had "no love" for the surface, but there is context to that.
"Wanting to destroy the whole world, funny enough, including other Mayan descendants who were enslaved or colonized"
When Namor burned down the Hacienda, slaves ran free. Only the Consquisdators were killed. The village elder relayed that they know of Namor's existence and were able to live with that knowledge. The only ones who died were the ones who sought him out with ill intent. The script also featured the factoid of Namor saving the elder and her husband from drowning on their wedding night, if that's worth anything. In the movie, he doesn't want to include Wakanda in the mix of the nations they're at war with either.
Clearly, he is discriminatory with who he'd kill. Who said he'd include Mayan descendants that were enslaved and colonized? The last time I checked, the only person who said anything about burning everyone was Shuri.
Namor: "It is no longer about the scientist. For centuries, the surface nations have conquered and enslaved people like us. Over resources. Since the day I buried my mother, I have prepared my people for the time they would come for us. And that machine? Is the sign that the time is now. I need to know if Wakanda is an ally, or an enemy. There is no in-between."
Shuri: "So you plan to wage war on the entire world, and want Wakanda to help you?"
Namor: [leans in and nods slightly]
Shuri: "That's madness!"
Namor: "There isn't a nation that wouldn't plunder Wakanda if given a chance. If we make an alliance, we can protect each other by striking them first. Then, when the threat of these nations have been eliminated, the scientist will be returned to Wakanda."
Namor wanting to remove the teeth from the lion's mouth and hitting first isn't the same thing as destroying everything and anything. Mind you, he is being chaotic, but he clearly has a concentrated target. Don't get it twisted.
Namor's Regret
It is suggested that Namor in particular felt regret and dislike for the situation in interviews, script, and in-film.
A) Namor is seen pensively on his throne, touching and cradling the shell phone as he awaits contact.
B) Namor's, "It could've been different."
C) Interestingly, Ryan and Joe Cole corroborated in The Movie Report panel interview, more regret was in every blow exchanged. Namor in particular did not want to exchange a fatal blow until he was pushed to impale Shuri on the rock in a desperate attempt to his life.
Equaling and Relating
Relating to someone is different from equalling someone. Out of all who were listed, whether it was Peter Parker, Riri Williams, or Namor, Namor is the only one out of those that is explicitly and purposefully depicted as equalling and relating to Shuri.
Namor And Shuri
The reasoning given for how Shuri works paired with Peter Parker or Riri Williams strongly applies to Shuri with Namor, so operating under the same logic, they largely work too.
"What makes both of these pairings work to a degree is the idea of them being equal in some regard(...) They clearly see each other as equal. They more or less agree on a common enemy and how to deal with said enemy, with morals and values that more or less align."
They do agree on a common enemy. That's literally half of the premise for Namor proposing an alliance where they protect one another. The problem just was how they go about handling things. Tragedy, trauma, and dramatic irony unfavorably played factors.
Otherwise, they're practically the same, and are now on the "same page". Their morals and values aren't far off either. Wakanda and Talokan are eerily similar, whether it be in having spying channels, an isolationistic approach, finding jurisdiction wherever they feel it (aka, if it regards and threatens them), only wanting to protect what they love, embracing-involving their culture-traditions, being environmentalists, and using defensive-offensive means if provoked by a perceived threat.
In visuals alone, they took great care to portray Shuri and Namor as Parallel Characters.
The "boy without love" and the "child who scoffs at tradition." They do have a few healthy differences (I'll save that for another article), but they are equal and deeply relate.
As said on The Movie Report panel interview, Shuri became the Panther god (the Black Panther is canonically Bast's avatar), while he is the god of his civilization. They're both royals and leaders of their own nations. Said nations are sister nations, both having the power of vibranium and the highest levels of advancement. They are both broken and with a shared trauma etched deep in their hearts. They both have a righteous, divine fire and an acute sense of avenging. They both were haunted by similar grief and pain that pushed them to seek solace in one another.
Namor is described as lonely and with loneliness by Ryan Coogler, and that's exactly how Shuri felt in the beginning as well (see her Interlude), and unfortunately, later in the movie after Ramonda "dies" (but in the end, it's revealed that Ramonda, like T'Challa, is not gone.). They brought innovative technology and a new era of living to their people. They share the same love languages: acts of service and gifts.
There was an entire montage near the end of the film showcasing this.
Riri Williams
Riri Williams relates to Shuri in a sense of being young black women whose intelligence and talents aren't always respected by their elders. They can also relate to their fathers being murdered (if they take a page out of comics for Riri, see Ironheart #9) or the loved ones that taught them what they know being ripped away from them. Maybe they also know about diffusion too as geeks, but it stops there.
Riri, like Peter, is a teenager (19 years old) new to college (the same college Okoye states is the equivalent of a Wakandan elementary school), trying to grapple with her emerging life and school. Shuri is a princess of the most powerful nation and head of Wakandan Technology. She completed the journey of school and became a college assistant at the age of 13. Wakanda Forever was Riri's debut and entry into the game. Wakanda Forever was Shuri, who is already a non-teenaged adult at this point, journeying through her womanhood and immense grief. Shuri is not new to the game, having been in countless wars and accumulated countless experiences Riri has yet to touch.
Throughout the film, Shuri acted as the voice Riri didn't have that Namor would hear, largely due to T'Challa's influence. At the end of the film, Riri invites Shuri to a basketball game. Shuri says no, prioritizing her duties and having a full plate compared to Riri's less uncomplicated, lighthearted one. This alone highlights their differences in placement and mental space.
Big sisters do not "equal" their younger siblings. They guide and protect, having some level of authority and experience over them.
And That's Perfectly By Design
Riri and Shuri are not equals and have noticeable divergences where one cannot ever relate to or feel what the other does. Shuri won't know how Riri feels the need to prove herself as a black woman in a society where black people, black women, are given the shorter end of the stick. Shuri doesn't know anything about how it is for African Americans and law enforcement. Riri won't know the privileges or how it feels like to carry the burdens Shuri does to the extent she does. Riri does not entirely relate to Shuri's grief either. Riri was a fish out of water who constantly wanted to go home despite the beauty and safety in Wakanda. They belong to two different worlds.
It is great that they have these differences because, in the words of Dominque Thorne, they can learn from each other. Their relationship in the film is contextualized as Shuri perceiving Riri as her reflection and then taking on a mentor role. Riri is, in Letitia's words, a reflection of T'Challa's choice. There are several parallels between Riri-Shuri and T'Challa-Shuri. It gives Shuri more of a personal incentive and investment in the outreach program her brother enacted. T'Challa had the connection, learning experience, and realization of the Lost Tribe and their struggles through N'Jadaka. Shuri now has that with Riri, but positively! Riri also can offer a breath of fresh air every now and again, fulfilling the chemistry she had (bubbly, plucky younger one) with T'Challa (the more composed, older, responsible one).
Whether you want to mold and configure this into a romantic dynamic, is up to you. The point is that yes they relate, yes they do have chemistry, but no, Riri and Shuri aren't equals.
Peter Parker
Hypothetically, Peter relates to Shuri in their intelligence (although I'd argue Shuri is smarter, Shuri's probably smarter than everyone), but that doesn't at all suggest they'd have the same interests. It doesn't work like that.
Peter (2001 baby) is younger than Shuri (1997-1998). He is just starting college. Shuri is around 22, 23 years old due to the snap. She was 19, 20 in Infinity War. Peter was 16. It's not a big age gap, but I wouldn't say they're peers. Age proximity doesn't indicate relatability either, especially if the maturity levels and experiences differ.
However, I will say, I think Peter and Shuri can relate to being orphans that do feel lonely (although Shuri lost and later gained family, Peter is left off completely alone), going through personal dark arcs, and suffering immense pain that changes the trajectory of their lives. They used to be more lighthearted, but now were forced to grow up and their perspectives darkened.
That's about it though. They aren't on the same wavelength or of the same caliber when it comes to their types of threats, challenges, and predicaments. Namor could entirely relate with her being another nation of vibranium of a culture the other nations seek to destabilize, destroy, or conquer, as well as someone with a similar depth and sense of grief. Riri could relate as a black woman living in America (lost tribe) who'd know a thing or two about persecution and was thrown into the mix between the Talokan-Wakanda conflict. Peter?
This isn't factoring in their standings either, with Shuri being an heir apparent and leader of the strongest nation on the surface with Peter being "your friendly (and now depressed) neighborhood Spiderman" that occasionally gets thrown outside his payroll.
Peter and Shuri can probably relate and it's easy to assume they'd have chemistry and may do a little chemistry together. But they do not equal either.
In Conclusion
Yes, ship and let ship. These are all great fictional characters with compelling dynamics. Shipping is largely for fun and often depends on the person's taste.
Looking at this from a perspective of a writer and storyteller, there's no such thing as it "not" working or "making sense" unless you have, excuse my language, shit and uninspiring writing.
can you share with us your references and other findings of the Mayan / African traditions and practices that you incorporated into your fanfic.
(sorry if it comes out rude, its just that the references in English-based sources are difficult to find/verify. and the spanish-based ones are difficult to translate)
Sure. I only have the tabs for the last chapter. Which isn't that much Mayan stuff.
For clothes 25cc410fd0aa6a6606a326f1c90e090b.png (1000Ć1420) (pinimg.com)
Names 52 Mayan Baby Names and Their Meanings | Peanut (peanut-app.io)
Calander The Meaning of the Days in the Maya Sacred Calendar.pdf
But unfortunately a lot of the references I use I look up as I go, If it doesn't feel right
Langauage
bing translate - Search
But you have to be careful with Yucatec Mayan because sometimes you get Spanish mixed in. It's best if you break down the words as much as possible to avoid getting Spanish words.
But basically, it helps to look up things from 1500 Mayan period. because of their history and cultural change. And Talokan was founded in 1500 so their references would be from that time.
For African sources
I look up everything as I go. I can't pull it back up
They use Xhosa as Wakandan.
things like all the stories they told. I made up. lol. I knew I wanted to have 3 stories that Namor hears. But I made the African one more African by looking up pre-colonial names etc. It's basically a lot of researching and planning.
You're not going to find all the information in one place. You really have to piece it together and consider the source and where it's from.
They mayan stuff is very difficult. because a lot of Mayan things have incorporated Spanish culture right now. So you really have to dig to find the pre-colonial things. Like the Weddings. All that stuff is not from 1500s. They would just move in together. A woman can move into a man's family home and they will be considered married, like common law. That's why I found it so funny after I read that. because Shuri basically asked Namor to marry her by asking to stay with him.
An Archive of Our Own, a project of the Organization for Transformative Works
Chapters: 3/3
Fandom: Black Panther (Marvel Movies), Marvel Cinematic Universe
Rating: Mature
Warnings: Graphic Depictions Of Violence
Relationships: Namor of Talokan/Shuri (Marvel), Namor of Talokan & Shuri (Marvel)
Characters: Namor of Talokan (Marvel), Shuri (Marvel), Okoye (Marvel), Namora of Talokan (Marvel), Namor of Talokanās Mother (Marvel), M'Baku (Marvel), Nakia (Black Panther), Toussaint | T'Challa (Marvel Cinematic Universe), Bruce Banner
Additional Tags: Angst, Fluff, Post-Canon, Underworld, Mayan Mythology - Freeform, Aztec Empire, Love, Prophecy, Enemies to Lovers, Star-crossed
Summary:
After the intense battle with the Princess of Wakanda, Namor finds himself in the throes of an all-consuming obsession that is believed to be tearing him away from his people. He recruits Princess Shuri, the object of his preoccupation, to help him execute a dangerous plan that will reaffirm or slowly dismantle their complex relationship in the eyes of the Talokanil.
Don't be discouraged by there only being 2 chapters. They are very long chapters, each with their own story that is complete by the end of the chapter but main story continues.
An Archive of Our Own, a project of the
Organization for Transformative Works
I don't know how far I am from completing it. It's all over the place right now. I need to put it all together to make it cohesive.
It's a Shuri's POV this time.
It's a mix bag. A little political, a little humor, a little intense and a lot of angst.
Plot:
Shuri slowly discovers what its like to be on the receiving end of an intense love and has to come to terms with what she should and more importantly can, do about it.
I'll let you guys know when I post.
You can catch up on the previous chapter here if you haven't read it already.
These stories will remain very small in scope, with few other characters. It's mainly about Shuri and Namor's relationship and how it changes and why. It's very intimate.
An Archive of Our Own, a project of the
Organization for Transformative Works
Guys, I have a question. What's she name of that top thing Namor is wearing in the scene when he asked her to burn the world. It shouldn't be a poncho.. So what's it called?
I don't know how far I am from completing it. It's all over the place right now. I need to put it all together to make it cohesive.
It's a Shuri's POV this time.
It's a mix bag. A little political, a little humor, a little intense and a lot of angst.
Plot:
Shuri slowly discovers what its like to be on the receiving end of an intense love and has to come to terms with what she should and more importantly can, do about it.
I'll let you guys know when I post.
You can catch up on the previous chapter here if you haven't read it already.
These stories will remain very small in scope, with few other characters. It's mainly about Shuri and Namor's relationship and how it changes and why. It's very intimate.
An Archive of Our Own, a project of the
Organization for Transformative Works
An Archive of Our Own, a project of the Organization for Transformative Works
Chapters: 1/1
Fandom: Black Panther (Marvel Movies), Marvel Cinematic Universe
Rating: Teen And Up Audiences
Warnings: Graphic Depictions Of Violence
Relationships: Namor of Talokan/Shuri (Marvel), Namor of Talokan & Shuri (Marvel)
Characters: Namor of Talokan (Marvel), Shuri (Marvel), Okoye (Marvel), Namora of Talokan (Marvel), Namor of Talokanās Mother (Marvel)
Additional Tags: Angst, Fluff, Post-Canon, Underworld, Mayan Mythology - Freeform, Aztec Empire, Love, Prophecy, Enemies to Lovers, Star-crossed
Summary:
After the intense battle with the Princess of Wakanda, Namor finds himself in the throes of an all-consuming obsession that is believed to be tearing him away from his people. He recruits Princess Shuri, the object of his preoccupation, to help him execute a dangerous plan that will reaffirm or slowly dismantle their complex relationship in the eyes of the Talokanil.
I didn't know Ao3 had a waiting list to join. I finally finished my fiction and I have no where to post it. I used to post on fanfiction.net but I feel like no one uses that anymore.
I wrote a little bit of fanfiction that's intended to be one shot. But it ended up being a bit long. Do I go ahead and release it as a one shot or break it up into 3 or 5 chapters.
Fyi: there's no smut, it's very heavy on plot. I don't think ppl will be waiting to read it chapter to chapter. But it's so long and there are some parts where there is no dialogue for about 2k words. I wonder if it will be too much to read in one sitting.
I should say what its about.
Since I believe Namor's obsession with Sue is being transferred to Shuri, I'm exploring this.
It's about how he becomes infatuated and how it manifests and what he is going to do about the big issue.
Shuri's side is her trying to process the grief while having a close alliance with him.
I want to say why I am so aggressively against the Namor/Sue Storm story for the MCU.
So when you ask anyone who is familiar with the comics about Namor they tell you about 5 things, and always included with those things, is his thing with Sue Storm.
I want to start off by saying that I looked at the panels with Namor and Sue and it comes off like something written for a different time.... And it was. But even the more recent depictions of Namor and Sue still give me pause. This will not be viewed gently in the post-me too era. Now, if Namor is a bad guy, we can have him be like that and it would be okay... Because he's bad. But the MCU's Namor is specifically an antihero. Weighing him down with that behaviour would make him unlikeable, especially to women.
Further, the MCU has given Namor a very specific race, ethnicity, origin, moral code and gripe with the surface world.
He is 500 years old( roughly). Slavery only ended in Spanish colonies around 1880s. After which he would have witnessed caste wars in the Yucatan peninsular, then continued social subjugation of his mother's people.
So let's piece on together. In his formative years, when his brain is still developing from baby to young adult in 1500-1750s ( the movie established that he aged very slowly vs. growing up then stopping aging) he witnessed slavery, complete hatred and dehumanising of people who look like him by colonisers. Then he would have seen more oppression as a young adult into a mature adult.
So around 430 of his years he has been seeing complete oppression of mothers people, and then a system developed that placed them on the bottom of the social ladder. Most of his life this is what he is seeing when he interacts with the surface world.
Can you imagine that a man with that long of history of constant trauma would turn around and frivolously fall for an aryan beauty. Degrade himself further, because she is married and she is not interested. Wouldn't that reinforce stereotypes of the lecherous other (black or brown man) hunting chaste white women.
Lord. You all can't think this is what they are doing?
It's gross.
I have no problem with Sue Storm... None. I have no problem with interracial couples... I love it. But in this case, Its a hard pass. It would RUIN the character. If they wanted to to do him with Sue it would have to be she falls in love with him and he has to learn to love her. And it has to be so profound and deep and star crossed that he would just forget his entire 500 years on earth and be with her. But it can never be that because she is already married to Reed and this is the MCU and they can't even write romances properly.
I know an important part of Namor's character is that he ironically falls in love with a surface dweller who doesn't return his feelings. For me, it has to be Shuri in the MCU because it makes the most sense. She has very good reason not to return his feelings and he has very good reasons to find her special. Shuri gets older every year. It's not like she is eternally as we first saw her. If Thor (1000s)is okay with Jane and Bruce and Natasha was okay then who the the hell cares that Shuri would be mid-20s if this happens.
But honestly, I'm fine with it being no one, it doesn't have to be Shuri. But it can't be Sue if she is white. Maybe make Sue Chinese or Indian... Then it won't matter. But if they go comics accurate Sue, and I think they will, it can't happen. It shouldn't happen.
Iām pretty much neutral about nashuri, but ive seen posts about how their age gap is āproblematic as hellā because heād be the predator in this ship. and sheās not even a child or a teenager but a grown 22 year old woman? like this site loves the vampire trope with a juicy young partner but when the same concept is applied to a brown man itās āpredatoryā and ācreepy afā suddenly? I wonder why. hmmmmm
I actually have a question about his aging. We know he looks younger than he is right but is he also mentally young. In the movie his mother had him as a young girl and when he goes to Bury her he looks to be about 9 but she is old. So it's not one of those this where he grew to adulthood normally and then shopped aging.
I think it's more of a Baby Yoda thing. Like he is aging slowly but he is not importal and he is mentally the age he looks.
Because then he would have been mentally a man in 20s-30s but only physically a toddler. I doubt that's it.
I think everything him developed slowly, including his mind.
It's actually funny to imagine. That he would be a child mentally for so long and king but it better than the alternative than child's body and man's mind.
Let me preface this by saying I just saw black panther 2 the Monday after thanksgiving. Usually we see all marvel movies opening night but I didnāt have the money to take my sister and our friend so we waited. I watched the trailers, thought I knew what was happening. I had heard that the villain was hot but from the trailers I donāt remember finding anyone super hot. So let me tell you what a surprise it was for me to walk in unprepared.
Iām only gonna say this ONCE. The power Namor has over me and my obsessions is ridiculous. First of all I should be stronger than this and second of all I am NOT apparently NOT stronger than this. Never before has the fluff tag had me in a chokehold UNTIL THIS MAN resurfaced from the water. Have I written any stories? What noooo (yes I have Iāve written four already) and you know what Iām not even mad.
Namor is the most beautiful hunk Iāve seen in my entire life and I am dying for more fluff. More tropes. More x readers more text post memes. I want more of him on my timeline in my LIFE. On a side note the water queen by tacotime on archive of our own has me also in a choke hold. Itās Shuri and Namor and typically I donāt read fanfics like that with preexisting characters as the main characters (because Iām selfish and I wanna imagine myself in the story) but IT IS THE MOST BEAUTIFULLY WRITTEN STORY IVE READ IN A LONG TIME. And Iām from the era of 2016 WATTPAD where in the marvel stories Clint hid in the vents and Thor would fight anyone for the last pop tart. Which in my opinion is the best era of fanfiction. So when I say run to archive of our own I MEAN RUN.
Anyways uh black panther was like 10/10 totally recommend great movie. And other than Namor who totally ruined me I love how we unpacked apart of Shuri I didnāt know I needed. Beautifully done.
The funny thing about this is some comics fans were complaining about Tenoch's body. They said he didn't look good. One of the illustrators of a Namor comic took a picture of himself and compared it to Tenoch and said even he looks better than him. And that Namor is supposed to sexy.
It just shows how men are clueless about women. I have yet to hear a complain about him, how he looked and is he was sexy. Because yes.... He is very sexy. Men really think women are out here counting back muscles. He looks good. He looks strong he looks masculine. I prefer his type of body than one that's overly ripped. For example Kill Monger did nothing for me, and he arguably has the better body by western standards. But Tenoch is not playing a Westerner. It suits his character. And it's what he exudes that makes him sexy.
So I watched over Wakanda forever and I noticed a few things.
1)I'm sorry but Ramonda was kind of guilty. Even though I understood that she wanted her daughter back she sent in someone that killed two people. One of them a very innocent and almost defenseless girl. Shuri asked to be taken to Talokan. He was treating her well. I felt really bad for Namor when the girl is looking to him to save her because to her, he is a God. Yet he is unable to help her. He calls the girl his child. To him they are all his children. So essentially Ramonda had his child killed. And wouldn't you go crazy if someone killed your chidren and was risking your entire family. Everything Wakanda did continued to put Talokan in danger and Ramonda was totally lacking empathy.
So for me, while it is sad that she died, Namor was not unjustified in killing her.
And to be clear, he told her that he would bring war to Wakanda if they tried to come into Talokan. And Ramonda went ahead. Why didn't Nakia also have non lethal weapons too so at least she wouldn't kill anyone.
2) Shuri was in Talokan longer than I noticed. On the first day she is there he gives her one traditional royal outfit to wear and he wears his more formal traditional clothes. Then the scene happens where he shows her around. The next time we see them her outfit is not the traditional clothes. It's something fancier than what everyone else is wearing but Riri has something made of similar material on. And he is no longer in his formal clothes but something I'm guessing is more casual for his position. At this point he is not talking to her on a diplomatic level, it's more personal. He isn't really trying to look impressive anymore. (probably can't top the sun underwater anyway).
3)Namora is a problem. She was there to instigate and push for more conflict everytime. She didn't see the wisdom in his strategy and she sees Wakanda as enemies and Namor as being weak. If he gets his own movie then this is what they should focus on. I was thinking Atuma would be the problem because he is on the comics but in the movie Namora is the one who always gets him to escalate.
4) so now that I've picked up on these things I didn't see before I feel like they needed more scenes of Shuri in Talocan to show how much time was passing. It will also justify Ramonda more. Also more hints of how Namor's Court (I'll call it that) feels about what he is trying to do. Because as the movie is cut right now it looks like all her conversations with Namor happens in one day into night and at some time in that day they changed clothes. š¤·š¾āāļø That's weird. His is understandable because he removed his extra regal and fancy stuff to show her Talokan but she just pops up in a different outfit. And Riri acts like she was gone all that time. So maybe a conversation with Riri hinting that they were there for a while and Shuri telling her how she trying to get them out of the situation.
PS....
I know everyone will disagree with me about the queen but she was acting like a mother, not a queen and it cost her nation dearly.
I agree with points 1 and 4. Ramonda fucked up...and that's why she had to die. The moment she said "by any means necessary" I knew she was going to die. She was kind of coddling Shuri, which was the first clue that she was going to die. Then the scene with Okoye was clue 2. The scene enlisting Nakia confirmed it. It was obvious Namor's threat would come to pass. It's sad but she completed her character arc by saving Riri.
I don't know how long they were in Talokan for which was a problem. I thought the fruit was the same when it was offered to when Shuri got back to Riri and Nakia arrived. The movie was originally 4 hours apparently and I wish we got to see all the extended scenes in Talokan. It would have made everything- Ramonda, Shuri/Namor- more poignant.
And Namora was a great foil when juxtaposed with M'Baku/Nakia. While Namora kind of instigated Namor into vengeance and war, M'Baku and Nakia tried to be a voice of reason for Shuri to prevent a neverending war. However, Namora's concerns about Namor revealing Talokan were valid even if Shuri isn't the type of person to attack innocent people.
When I say Namora is a problem. I mean it in the best way possible. She is an instigator and makes Namor question his own judgement. I love it. I love that you highlighted the comparison between Namora vs. M'Baku and Nakia. That's a brilliant observation.
I also see your points about Ramonda cuddling Shuri. And this is common with parents who lose children. They become protective of the others. But at no time did she have faith in Shuri's ability to be diplomatic. Namor told Ramonda that Shuri asked to be taken to Talokan. She should have trusted that Shuri had a plan of some kind. When Namor said there was nothing SHE could offer him to release Shuri he is playing with her a bit. Because Shuri is not his captive, Riri is. But Shuri won't leave without Riri... That's what she just told him. So in his mind there really is nothing Ramonda can offer for him to release Shuri.
Ramonda could have asked to speak to Shuri, to get a letter from her to assure she is safe... Something before the most nuclear option that he specifically said would lead to war.
Her cuddling of Shuri makes her forget about her duty as sovereign of a nation.
I'm sorry for everyone who disagrees but she made the worst decision at every turn and caused her own demise. Shuri was the one trying to negotiate with Namor and Ramonda just interrupted it.
And on point 2) that's why I said it was edited weird. I think they changed their mind about something or cut out a scene and tried to stitch it together. Because we can see time is passing through Nakia and Ramonda but we can't tell time is passing Talokan. Shuri's and Namor's conversations has to have taken place on two different days. We can explain why he changes clothes, not not why Shuri changes clothes... And where? Her quarters was with Riri and Riri acted like that was the first time she was seeing Shuri since she first went to meet Namor. She didn't even ask... "why are you wearing different clothes?". So imo that's a continuity error or they just cut a scene between where Shuri sees Riri again after seeing Talocan and when she talks with Namor again, on another day. The cut in the movie is confusing.
