I ramble and write more than a Founding Father here. ☆ Marvel comics and MCU enthusiast ☆ A neutral zone, I am not here to entertain ship or fanwars, but I do have my own opinions and the right to them ☆ Ask me anything
can I just say I dont like NaShuri (namorxshuri) shippers. aside from the whole "he-killed-her-mom" thing, I didn't really see that kind of chemistry, the age gap ???? Feels a lil off putting to me. Plus ion like to think about how Tenoch and Letitia would look like tgth. Both are very hot, respectively, but just......no. no thank yew.
Also, Shuri look gay to me. Like look at that woman. that's a stud (or at least a stem). lets ignore the fact that I was overly obsessed with her at some point
not saying masculine-presenting or masculine-looking women can't be with men (not saying fem4fem cant be a thing either, dont jump 2 conclusions), cuz i dont mind the Attuma and Okoye ship but in my opinion ShuRiri felt like more natural than NaShuri in terms of a romantic ship, or even like a platonic one. Nashuri feels kinda forced idk , it has a very dark romantasy booktok-esque vibe that I don't mess with.
thas all. not tryna to be mean, its just how I see things yfm? And im not tryna fight nobody in the comments either, ty.
[huge longsuffering sigh] okay look I'll bite. this is not about shipping whatsoever, but about Shuri, and separately from the shipping discourse (and I am not trying to pick a fight with OP or directly addressing OP because OP is 18 years old but I have seen this type of rhetoric repeated a LOT online for the past 4 years) -- a lot of people have GOT to start working through their pre conceived perception that a woman with short hair wearing loose clothing = masculine or a stud.
We also need to remember that for about half this movie, Shuri is wearing or is given clothing for a specific purpose, not clothing she would have picked to comfortably reflect her own identity in any sort of way, and the clothing she DOES wear at home in Wakanda is a LOT different than the clothing she wears outside of it.
So first let's go through the costumes of this movie and see the things Shuri actually chooses to wear when she's at home, comfortable and her own self, in Wakanda. I'm gonna count up all the dresses and all the pants and see what we have at the end.
The first thing we see her in is an asymmetrically sleeved pencil dress with her long braids twisted into an updo! Ramonda's hair is worn long. This is right as we find out T'Challa is dead. This dress is her own choice: she isn't wearing it for any purpose other than working in her lab with the Design Team. Dress Tally: 1.
Her funeral attire is a beautiful long robe and dress. The one shot of the back of both she and her mother show us that both of them have cut or are wearing their natural hair short as a mourning tradition. This dress is traditional, and we know Shuri dislikes traditional wear and prefers more fashionable modern stuff. This does not count toward the Dress Tally.
We know they continue to do cut their hair for their whole period of mourning, which we know because a year after the funeral both of their hair is still being worn short.
I think this orange dress with the mesh lab coat is so cute by the way. Very 60s mod does futuristic. it's not as close-fitting as her previous lab dress from BP, but it carries over the silhouette and the white meshy aspect of the one she wore when T'Challa came to see her. Nice little callback. She misses her brother intensely and is still mourning him. Dress Tally: 2.
Next scene, she's changed her clothes to go on a little excursion with Ramonda. This scene is so dark I lightened it so you can see the costume, but she's wearing like a lime-yellow T shirt with a long skirt-like vest over it that matches a patterned pair of very loose, comfortable pants. Great for camping. Pants Tally: 1.
Her next costume is back in the lab, looking at Riri's vibranium-detecting machine. This is kind of a big blousy white windbreaker parka lab coat over a pair of shorts, which lets her squat down close to examine her project and climb all over it. The theme of her costumes seem to be loose and comfortable in the wake of her brother's death-- which to me is really symbolic of sort of rediscovering herself through style. Pants Tally: 2.
In America, she and Okoye wear these getups as undercover agents trying to get into MIT. Adidas, baby! Ruth E Carter has stated that they chose this muted gray-purple with some blue to evoke the royal colors of Wakanda but also the grief that's still very present in Shuri's mind, because this is a movie about grief and mostly done through Shuri's perspective. Shuri wears this outfit all the way up until she offers herself to Talokan in exchange for letting Riri live and is taken to the cenote. This is an outfit she's wearing specifically for a purpose outside Wakanda. Okoye would never have covered her head with makeup inside Wakanda and Shuri doesn't wear anything like this in Wakanda. This does not count for the Pants Tally.
The traditional dress of royalty that the Talokanil make specifically just for her to wear is gorgeous. But she can't wear that in the dive suit, so she changes into another equally elaborate outfit covered in embroidered bits and feathers and designs. Riri is also given a new set of clothes, which are both worn, again, in the dark and hard to see until Nakia mounts a rescue. Neither of these count as Dress or Pants Tally because these aren't clothes she chose for herself.
Once they are back in Wakanda, Riri and Shuri both wear the same grayish jumpsuit with the same belt, which suggest that this is maybe just a standard Design Team jumpsuit, or maybe it's emergency clothing kept for rescued, soaking wet people aboard the Royal Talon. Again, not clothes they likely picked out for themselves. Nakia is wearing a similar jumpsuit, but in a lighter color and with a different collar when she talks to Okoye. No Pants Tally!
These are worn through and to the end of the Talokanil attack on the Golden City, after which Shuri is once again in her funeral clothing for her mother. No Dress Tally.
After this, she is visibly mourning again and there's a lack of color in everything she wears. We first have a dark gray, plain ribbed dress with a high mock-turtleneck collar in her lab with sort of dull silver hand and wrist jewelry. As she works on synthesizing the herb, her clothes sometimes lose their darkness but not their monochromatic quality: she's in another interesting ribbed dress (boob triangles?) of a lighter gray for one shot, then back to a third dark dress with a crew neck and not a mock neck for her convo with Riri about Namor. She flips between these two darker dresses for most of the shots in the lab. Dress Tally: 5.
As she reveals the Blue Angels to Okoye, she's back in her white mesh again, echoing once again the old Shuri, in a long, flowing coat with a pair of white pants and a white sleeveless top beneath it. Pants Tally: 3.
When she takes the synthesized herb, she wears comfortable clothing for what she views as a medical procedure: sneakers, a ribbed sweater with lace-up details on the sleeves, and flared matching pants, again in dark gray. Pants Tally: 4.
When she finds herself in the ancestral plane, she is in a long, flowing, gauzy, feminine white gown. It is implied throughout both films that a person's appearance in the ancestral plane says something about their innate identity and who they are: Killmonger's cardigan evokes his body scarification, T'Challa and T'Chaka's clothing reflects their deeply held opinions about tradition and progress etc. Dress Tally: 6.
Her Panther habit is a really lovely, feminine, sharp take on the suit. I'm running out of images but you know what it looks like: the double gold and silver V on her chest and the lines around her ribs subtly emphasize her figure, it's a lot more decorated than T'Challa's and takes some inspiration from Killmonger's Jaguar habit with the gold, the silver dots evoke her mourning makeup. A lot of triangles, a lot of points. This doesn't really count as pants or a dress because it's a super-suit.
Anyway, she almost cooks Mermaid Man, doesn't, decides to own her grief, and then we're at the finale. Her main color from here on out is black, but it's paired with other colors: she wears a gold necklace. This long black dress with sandals she wears to plant the herb in the forest and give Riri her car back in one piece is really similar to T'Challa's silhouette. Dress Tally: 7.
And when she arrives in Haiti, she's wearing cutoff demin shorts and a black hoodie with elbow-length sleeves paired with white, black, and gold Adidas sneakers. She's undercover again, outside of Wakanda, and wearing clothing for a purpose: burning her mourning clothing at last and letting her mother and T'Challa go. Does not count toward Pants Tally.
Also her makeup is so cute here and look at that smile augh
Final Tally: Dresses/Skirts: 7, Pants: 4. And even if you DID count all the things I didn't into the total, the Dress Tally would be 10 and the Pants Tally would be 8. This is a woman-led film, and Ruth E. Carter has stated she wanted all the women to look feminine but comfortable and athletic as well. Being a person with sharper or stronger features that don't translate well to "feminine" Eurocentric standards of beauty doesn't mean you're masculine, and participating in a traditional mourning practice of your culture does not make you masculine.
(An example of Shuri's fuller title never being with a last name, but instead her ancestor or ancestral, native land. This example in particular was also penned by an African writer.)
Just to clarify, "Shuri Udaku" is not actually Princess Shuri's name in the comics or MCU. I think it's important to know this not just for accuracy sakes and as a factoid (many actually believe this is her canon name when it is not), but to also respect the fact that Wakanda (an African nation) does not really have a traditional western-like naming system in neither the 616 comics (prime, original universe) or the Marvel Cinematic Universe. It is often mononymic names!
Shuri's name is Princess Shuri, daughter of Ramonda (or T'Chaka, but it appears to go by the ancestor of your shared gender — in Shuri's case, it's maternal)! It's much simpler to call her "Princess Shuri" or "Shuri" though 😅!
We have seen examples of their naming in the MCU:
And we have the 616 comics telling us it early on in. T'Challa's name is repeatedly said to be T'Challa, son of T'Chaka:
(Note: the first scan is T'Challa with a non-Wakandan — specifically, a South African. There is an intentional contrast with him not having a last name like Zanti!)
The "Udaku" surname specifically is only mentioned in a 2008 alternate reality where Shuri does not exist (the old Earth-1610), and T'Challa is actually the brother of M'Baku:
So yes. While this surname did exist in a "comic," it was never tethered or did it link back to Shuri. Instead, it was a different universe (Ultimates, which got boom boomed iirc, but that's another story for another day).
I honestly do not understand why some people insist that Riri was canonically "wearing Shuri's clothes" or the two "shared clothes." Well, no. 😭?
The orange two-pieces the two respectively wear are the prime citations, but they are completely different shades of orange. The necks, textures, and sleeves are completely different. Shuri wears a pencil skirt that stops above the knee while Riri wears long pants.
I'll try to chalk it up as ship goggles (it happens) and/or people not remembering the outfits but accidentally conflating them (to be fair: both do feature orange croptops after all) rather than disinformation.
But yeah... Besides the outfits visually not being the same, to me, it doesn't really add up that the two would "share" clothing.
Why would Shuri go into her own royal closet in the midst of anxiously preparing for war or rebuilding her nation to (needlessly) give Riri (who was not with her) some hand-me-downs?
If Shuri was not the one to personally do it, it has less plausibility. Why would attendants go into their princess's personal closet and take out her wear (likely of her own design, Shuri likes and does fashion) for a temporary American refugee?
They are at Wakanda. There is no shortage of resources. Shuri and Riri are not the same height nor even have the same body type. Logically, I'd think they just given Riri a brand new set of fitted clothes 😭.
It'd make much more sense to talk about how Riri now has some quality Wakanda fashion in her closet (Shuri may or may not have designed it, but that's a shot in the dark). That, or how Riri kind of-sort of takes on/mirrors Shuri's prior palette (Shuri wore a lot of orange before — usually red-orange like her BPWF croptop or a pure vibrant-light orange. Riri wears orange in the end and sometimes in the Ironheart series!).
On one hand, I think this could be the coding of Shuri "passing on the torch" and no longer being the youngest, smart-but-not-wise one in the room. Riri is now. Shuri, feeling kinship and empathy, looks after her:
That, or maybe it's me overthinking? It could be simply their selection of clothes and concidence. It's "just colors" (I don't know... The creatives are very intentional with color) and Riri only happened to wear orange. Namora also wears orange (but then, Namora also parallels Shuri in position as Talokan's princess/a head in charge).
It looks like Talokan and Wakanda done some cultural-resource exchange (at least between their leaders: M'Baku (king of Wakanda), Shuri (Black Panther), and Namor (godking and protector of Wakanda)). It makes sense as they are allies now and will be facing a massive threat. However, I cannot decipher exactly why and what they do?
With M'Baku and Shuri, what stands out is what appears to be some blue jade kind of material. The way it is integrated and color is more in-line with Talokanil design than anything we know to be Wakandan. Could this be Talokan's version of vibranium?
On the other hand, Namor's staff is altered. It does not have jade or risen engravings. It is instead sleeker, with a blue glass gem-like material. This is not signature to Talokanil, but to Wakanda (particularly see Shuri's kimoyo earrings: see images below).
Something definitely is happening and has happened for them to do this. I won't lie, I am intrigued but also tad bit terrified.
There is something so good but so painful about the Washington sibling tragedy.
In the comics, Riri, Natalie, and Xavier trio. As the best friends of Riri Williams, what brings them together is Riri. They do not really have an aforementioned relationship from what I know. Xavier knows who (or what) Natalie/N.A.T.A.L.I.E. is to Riri, and N.A.T.A.L.I.E. knows who Xavier is to Riri. They are bound to, and do, interact because of this.
It's relatively simple — not complicated.
Ironheart (2025) unlocked new layers, giving N.A.T.A.L.I.E. and Xavier more of a direct link to one another independent from Riri. With it, they also explored the ethical dilemmas and different reactions to A.I.
In other words, the Ironheart series decided to take a new knife, stab, and twist it in the gut. I say this in a positive way, really.
Natalie is now the sister of Xavier. Not only that, but she is his older sister (older sisters are often significant pillars of family).
So before Riri, narratively, there was Natalie and Xavier.
The Seeming Antithesis of Xavier and N.A.T.A.L.I.E.
As Lyric Ross says, N.A.T.A.L.I.E. mirrors the current climate of A.I. Today, there is an ongoing controversy on the concerns and benefits of A.I. For example, the complicated relationship between artists and A.I. (there are helpful things like art tools, but there are also troubling things like generated art), or the potential dangers of using A.I. to grieve.
Xavier and N.A.T.A.L.I.E. are, in a sense, antithetical to one another (at the same time, there is a little "two-sides-of-the-same-coin"ism*). There is something brilliant about having this friction between them. It is deep that Xavier is the character who was most put off by N.A.T.A.L.I.E.
If I were to just write Xavier and N.A.T.A.L.I.E.'s character out on paper then place them side by side, I'd immediately go, "oh no."
Passionate friction between Xavier and N.A.T.A.L.I.E was inevitable. Not only are practical opposites conceptually, but:
They stand for different things
Personal stakes and feelings are involved
What Art Thou Xavier?
Chinaka Hodge confirms that Xavier is the "old school musician" type of musician. He prefers analog to digital, which alone gives away his character philosophy – his mentality.
Analog is nostalgic, sporting a warmer tone and preserving natural nuances. Compared to digital (considered more convenient, technological, and clear), analog has a more "organic" sound, keeping human touch rather than weeding out the "imperfections."
Examples of analog mediums are vinyls (which we see in Xavier's room) and mix-tapes (what Xavier gifts to Riri). Xavier's music we hear in episode one is even "soulful" music.
The picture painted is clear: Xavier is an artist who especially loves authenticity and soul.
What Art Thou N.A.T.A.L.I.E.?
Then we have N.A.T.A.L.I.E., who is literally and metaphorically digital. She is a projective artificial intelligence bearing the likeness of a loved one. She is not dead. She is not alive either. Yet... She... lives?
N.A.T.A.L.I.E. herself seems to become quickly aware of what she truly is, but there are still moments where she forgets herself or unintentionally oversteps. Even she does not quite know how to grapple with the juxtaposition that is her existence.
She has characters (and us) questioning the definition of "real" or "alive." To the naked eye, she perfectly imitates so much of the real Natalie. This was something Ronnie and Riri both noted. It, in part, helped them embrace her. This very thing, these comparisons, were received by N.A.T.A.L.I.E.
Yet... She is not truly Natalie. She can not even interact with the real world without a medium. What N.A.T.A.L.I.E. really is, is a technological phenomenon. One that became something else — someone else.
In N.A.T.A.L.I.E.'s Perspective
She is a highly advanced AI who is not supposed to be (something Riri initially made amply clear), but is.
Nat is in a sense living, but not alive. She looks like Natalie, shares qualities with Natalie, has Natalie memories — but she isn't quite Natalie.
Even when she tries to be.
N.A.T.A.L.I.E is also shown to work by whim. She has autonomy and frequently rebels. She feels. Like a "real" person.
But again, she isn't quite a person. She isn't quite thee person.
As the real Natalie would want, N.A.T.A.L.I.E. wanted to see her little brother "Xa." Even when Riri warned her of the danger in this. If she responded badly at first and wanted her deleted, could you imagine Xavier?
The sad part is: you can tell Nat herself felt this. Hence why, when she took Xavier to Riri, she did not speak. Yet despite her better judgment, she couldn't fight it. N.A.T.A.L.I.E. saw an opening. She was overcome by the desire to speak with Xavier. The truth was bound to come out anyway. Rip off the bandaid, as it were. It ended up working with Ronnie, right?
N.A.T.A.L.I.E. was hopeful, only to get rejected and her existential crisis furthered.
Xavier was definitely the worst reaction. When he said to delete her, it was... Different from Riri's deletion.
He shut down. He was in disarray. He was horrified. He was disgusted.
With her.
Again: N.A.T.A.L.I.E. did not ask to be created, but is. She was not meant to be made or anything more than AI for Riri to use, but here she is now.
It is within N.A.T.A.L.I.E.'s code to have this personality, these memories, these feelings – this identity not truly her own. These two principles are constantly clashing one another, fighting for some sort of dominance. At one point, N.A.T.A.L.I.E. accepts her existence as A.I., but others, she acts as though she is really the real Natalie (which is greeted by harsh reality checks).
To suffer this constant oscillation of what you are versus what you have been conditioned to be... That is deeply confusing. That is deeply maddening.
In Xavier's Perspective
Let's pause for a second and set the scene for Xavier.
This dude was kidnapped by a flying suit and dropped off into a who-knows-where-yet junkyard. Before he could fully calm down from what he felt was almost a near death experience, he is met with a distraught Riri Williams. His usually emotionally walled best friend, his crush, teary-eyed and near defeated.
Afterward, he got overwhelmed by what sounded like and appeared to be Natalie only to soon come to realize he is staring at an Artifical Intelligence — an amalgamation of code, numbers, and projected memory.
His big sister, his beloved Natalie, is dead. She was gone. What he is looking at is not his sister or anything his sister consented to.
What really set him off was when he touched N.A.T.A.L.I.E. He saw Natalie, but nothing was there. It did not have her feeling. It does not have her touch or raw essence. N.A.T.A.L.I.E. is not organic or the original soul (something Xavier especially takes to heart, from his logic to why he keeps those worn out headphones to the type of music he does).
That is what was horrifying to him.
Earlier, we also see that Xavier himself still grieves Natalie (albeit healthier, compared to Riri). In a conversation with Riri, he says he wishes to talk to Natalie.
Be careful what you wish for.
It does not help that N.A.T.A.L.I.E. canonically has dark spots in what she remembers. She is projected from Riri's brain, so things Natalie experienced with him without Riri to witness, she may not have. But Xavier does. And Xavier cherishes those memories of Natalie just as much.
It also doesn't help that the person he was closest to and felt seen by created her. Riri did it on accident, but he did not know that. On top of that, Riri was poorly justifying N.A.T.A.L.I.E.'s existence to an already upset him (you can tell he was trying to remain cool) does not bode well.
It was tragedy all around.
Tolerance, Not Quite Acceptance
Xavier's headphones ultimately tells the story.
You see, Xavier keeps his old, worn-out headphones. He explains why to an unknowing Riri.
These are the only headphones we see him actually wear. These same headphones, he calls, "Natalie."
However, they break and "die" in episode 5. That is when he finally moves over to the newer, technologically savvy headphones Riri bought him.
He starts to open the headphones, but we never see him actually open them. We only see him fully open and read Riri's letter, which a part of it was about N.A.T.A.L.I.E. That part with a Captain quote, he admits, gotten to him. He also understood it to be about N.A.T.A.L.I.E.
Notice how, after this, he does not once wear headphones. Before, he was seen frequently wearing a pair. So he isn't clinging onto the "Natalie" headphones anymore, but he also has yet to visibly embrace the new pair.
This is a direct mirror to the story.
Xavier did calm down and come back a bit around after reading Riri's letter. In a way, Xavier is holding on to memory like Riri is. N.A.T.A.L.I.E. is memory.
However, he says he still was not ok with it.
(Author's note: Since I have seen people oddly misconstrue this and miss the point, I want to stress that they are speaking about the Artificial Intelligence version of N.A.T.A.L.I.E., not Natalie the person.).
Understandably, Xavier is still not alright with Riri's AI having the face and likeness of his sorely missed dead sister.
This goes double when you take into account two details:
1. Remember: Xavier is an artistic character who gravitates to what is real, soulful, and nostalgic. His way of coping with Natalie's death is by honoring and having the memory of her. He is big on touch. Obviously, it'd be hard for him to accept this digital, Artifical Intelligence rendition of his sister that is a holographical manifestation of specifically Riri's brain. One that, when touched, was nothing.
2. Unlike Riri, he did not yet have the opportunity to develop a relationship with her. Riri felt similar to how he felt in the beginning, but she had the chance to grow fond of N.A.T.A.L.I.E. Xavier did not.
We can tell this even by how, when N.A.T.A.L.I.E. looks in his direction and approaches, he stiffened before averting his gaze. He is still unsure about her.
Imagine being him, seeing the virtual ghost and select memories of your sister walking around like she is her.
Imagine being her, having what you percieve as your brother looking at you as though you are a ghost at best, impostor at worst.
It's confusing, it's frustrating, and it's scary.
This story is not over. Xavier is not ready yet, but the door is open for potential development. Will he embrace his new headphones?
This isn't even getting into Riri's deal with Mephisto, bringing back seemingly the real Natalie. Whoops!
A Million Outcomes, Nine Hundred and Ninety-Nine Ways It Goes Wrong
"'Cause it isn't going to end well, Ri." A heavy, prognostic statement spoken by Xavier.
There are many ways this could have gone wrong. And about all of them happened to a degree.
RESULT A: Riri becomes unhealthily attached to N.A.T.A.L.I.E.. Losing her would cause immense distress.
Riri would develop a dependence and become emotionally invested in N.A.T.A.L.I.E. Losing her would cause amplified distress, ripping more into an unhealed wound. Riri was already struggling with the loss of her loved Gary and Natalie, but at least then she thought them to be dead and irreversibly gone. This would force her on the road to acceptance.
With N.A.T.A.L.I.E., this is not the case. Since N.A.T.A.L.I.E. affords Riri with the idea that she could "bring back" someone, Riri would behave more desperately. Riri would behave more recklessly. None of this is a good addition to Riri, an already ambitious, stubborn, and reckless character.
And what do you know, the devil in a suit comes to Riri, preying on this. It is what had her shake hands with him, even after knowing and initially resisting.
RESULT B: Riri's natural grieving process being hindered by N.A.T.A.L.I.E.
N.A.T.A.L.I.E. creates an illusion of continued presence, which is not good for Riri, who already suppresses and has an avoidance coping mechanism. She can not move forward when she stuck both of them back in time.
She can play pretend and cope with N.A.T. At least, for a little while.
RESULT C: Natalie's memory could be distorted or misrepresented.
N.A.T.A.L.I.E. is not Natalie. She is a projection of Riri's brain (already not the most reliable source). Part of N.A.T.A.L.I.E. is to serve as an AI (their relationship and power dynamic) — not just her be her own independent person and Riri's friend.
RESULT D: Riri becoming disillusioned by N.A.T.A.L.I.E.
There are plenty of things that can and to some degree, had happened that shatters the "fantasy." Maybe N.A.T.A.L.I.E. malfunctions. Maybe N.A.T.A.L.I.E. cannot touch. Maybe N.A.T.A.L.I.E. does not remember what she ought to had she be Natalie. Maybe N.A.T.A.L.I.E glitches.
RESULT E: N.A.T.A.L.I.E. becomes delusional
N.A.T.A.L.I.E. would begin thinking she is alive and perhaps even really N.A.T.A.L.I.E., because that is what she is learning. That is the delusion being built by validations and engagements. When this is contradicted, cognitive dissonance follows. Cognitive dissonance births emotional distress and impaired decision-making. N.A.T.A.L.I.E. will hurt and unintentionally hurt others around her. We've seen hints of this already in the series. N.A.T.A.L.I.E. froze, experiencing PTSD, while Riri was in immediate danger (held at gunpoint).
It's just tragedy. Beautifully written, deliciously painful tragedy.
Namor with Shuri is objectively not "romanticized abuse" for two simple facts.
1. they did not have a personal, domestic relationship violence between them.
2. it was under the flag of war (impersonal). It was politics.
While we are at it, this is what the creatives said about their scenes in Talokan! No "manipulation" or "using" Shuri here as claimed. I recommend consulting the actual creators (credible firsthand sources) who know what the hell they are talking about instead of an opinionated fan article.
If you call Namor Shuri's "abuser" or deem shipping them "romanticized abuse," you don't know what abuse is. You are not only being disingenous, but misunderstanding-weaponizing terms and taking away the gravity of them. All over shipping.
Namor did not "abuse" Shuri or is her "abuser," but his actions did hurt Shuri. Regardless if he meant it personally or not. Regardless of his "reasons" or it being war, he still was wrong and caused mass destruction resulting in too much casualties. He also should atone. That is a point worth discussing.
Rather than, you know — spreading harmful misinformation or misconstruing what abuse is and shitting on the narrative of Wakanda Forever (because you don't like a ship or want anyone else to like it)... You can just be normal and say you don't like the ship because of valid reasons such as he killed her mom and waged war against her nation (for starters).
More about Namor's character you people love to butcher (yet you claim to love and have "media literacy"):
Re: Namor x Shuri working from a storytelling standpoint
I stumbled on a post trying to give an analysis of how Namor and Shuri "don't work" from a storytelling standpoint. After reading several of the objectionable points made and realizing I've seen them all before, I felt like trying my own hand to exemplify why these kinds of criticisms against "Nashuri" don't actually work. I didn't directly reblog to avoid being convoluted or dogpiling, but I'll be responding to specific points throughout.
Direct quotes are in orange
Linked sources and further information are in green
Warning: This article has many layers, musings, and points. After all, it's essentially a master collection of material. If you just want to jump to a certain point, you can. There are subtitles for every point.
The Oxymoron of Improbable and "Non-Sensical" Story Writing
In the context of specifically Wakanda Forever's story and nothing else, yes: as of now, Namor and Shuri being a romantic couple does not make "sense."
However, there is no such thing as a ship that doesn't make sense from a story-writing perspective.
With your pen, reality can be shaped according to your whim, or elements can be bent to fit the mold of a given reality. Story-writing-wise, anything can happen, and anything can work with the proper execution. A good writer knows how to suspend the reader's disbelief and make the seemingly improbable, seem probable.
Namor and Shuri already have the ingredients for chemistry and compatibility as characters, which are the two essential requirements in relationships. The media they're in gives you the room to potentially address their circumstance, like reviving Ramonda (coming back to life is no foreign concept to Marvel) or building off of the concepts already there (e.g., the Ancestral Plane or "dead not meaning gone"). There are also AUs.
Saying otherwise is simply putting a cap on your creativity and demonstrates a sheer lack of imagination.
Why Do People Ship Namor And Shuri?
To answer this question, Namor and Shuri:
Have undeniably strong chemistry. That was the first thing that had people question what their relationship would be. You don't have to register this as inherently romantic, but they have chemistry nevertheless.
Deeply connected with and paralleled-equaled one another. Shuri opened up to only Namor about her true grief. With Ramonda, Shuri closed herself off. When her mask cracked, she lamented that if she sat and merely thought of T'Challa, she'd burn the world and everyone in it. The ancestral plane, tethered to her subconscious and emotional state, lit up on fire the moment N'Jadaka mentioned T'Challa. Yet... Shuri felt that she could be emotionally vulnerable to Namor, seeking solace and answers within him. She could not only think of but also talk about T'Challa with Namor. This is after Namor was, in exchange, completely vulnerable and honest to her, showing her his scars and his cherished nation. Both characters did things they wouldn't do with anyone else. They felt seen and heard by the other. That is a beautiful testament to the bond they were forging before uh, yeah.
Shuri was healing in Talokan. It is directly said in the script Shuri was better than she was before she left, but the movie let it be a "show, don't tell." We already established she was finally unveiling her grief to Namor, but Talokan was also an escape for her. Her behavior and attitude were a sheer contrast to how she was earlier in the movie. Shuri was shown beaming, marveling at, and practically glowing as Namor showed her his world. Approximately, she genuinely smiled 11 times in under 3 minutes. She forgot her worries. The tension rolled off of her and let herself go "with the breeze". Her admiration and sense of wonder made him smile too. She was taken care of, a shame that her reason of stay wasn't preferable.
Shared several purposefully intimate moments.
Look hot and are hot together. Argue with a wall.
Can be the strongest, most unstoppable MCU power couple to date.
Create a rich, ethnic, and main poc ship and representation between a black African woman and a brown-skinned indigenous man. That's not common at all, and the thought of their cultures being connected, becoming one through their union is hair-twirling inducing. The idea of them creating a new era filled to the brim with their respective cultures and identities together, with them learning from one another, is very interesting.
They have many, many classic romantic-fantastical tropes poured into the batter that is their dynamic. You may have heard the comparisons to Beauty and The Beast (say thank you, Riri!), Aladdin ("I Can Show You The World"), Peter Pan and Wendy (Namor is deemed of a "Peter Pan" archetype. "Peter Pan" lost his Wendy, who is Shuri in this case. See Inframundo.) and Hades-Persephone.
The only reason why they're on opposite ends is due to outer forces and unfavorable circumstances at work. There's something interesting about their nuanced tragedy. There's a fun intrigue to find a way to "fix" what seems broken beyond repair, through understanding, love, character development, and healing.
Have a romantic anthem: Con La Brisa is a tender love song specifically created based on the underwater scene between Namor and Shuri. Foudequesh revealed that the meaning of the song was showing someone the sun for the first time.
Additionally, Namor and Shuri having romantic chemistry is not baseless. It was initially toyed with. Though they decided to characterize their relationship a bit differently and focus on grief-shared trauma, elements were still left in to give their relationship complexity. The way they relate and the things they did gave romantic undertones you can't just pluck out. Micheal P. Shawver, a colleague of Ryan Coogler and an editor of Wakanda Forever, said this much when asked about the possibility of Namor and Shuri having romance in their cards.
Note how Ryan Coogler, a writer and director of both Black Panther, even apparently thinks that Namor and Shuri are not unsuited for one another even then.
You can also view the original script where Namor is described as "charmed" and "smitten" with Shuri. It's only natural people pick up the pieces purposefully left behind.
Clarification Notes
Before we jump into this, there are things you need to know.
Note 1: None of this is bashing or permission to bash Ramonda, Riri, Shuri, or Nakia. They were justified and operating under grief and dramatic irony if you look at it from every perspective. Currently, this is just clearing up Namor and Talokan's perspectives because that is what's being targetted and unceremoniously characterized, but everyone has a case for them.
Note 2: This doesn't mean you need to ship Shuri and Namor. It's explaining why some do and clearing up misconceptions about their dynamic as well as individual characters. Your takeaway should be this and valueable information on Black Panther, not a decree of what you should or shouldn't ship.
Positive and Negative Chemistry
"Positive" and "negative" chemistry is confusing terminology at best and doesn't exist at worse. It's either you have or lack chemistry. There are also two different kinds of chemistry: platonic and romantic.
When describing how characters wouldn't be compatible in a given relationship, you may be looking for the term, "compatibility".
Chemistry: magnetism, attraction, and natural connection. Compatibility: a more "logical" component: your degree of harmony and cohesiveness.
You can have chemistry without compatibility, and compatibility without chemistry. Healthy and long-lasting relationships have both.
Namor's view of Shuri
Namor does not view Shuri as an equal, despite their similarities.
Pause. Namor does view Shuri as an equal. Shuri is arguably the person he respects the most.
The idea That Namor-Talokan does not relate, respect, connect with, or even view Shuri-Wakanda as human directly goes against the meta-pillar theme of Wakanda Forever.
You said it yourself:
"these are fictional characters (who represent real-world dynamics)"
“We talked to so many experts and really made relationships with them, because there was a lot to go through,” says Beachler. “There are a lot of parallels between Africans and Latin Americans as far as the colonization of their communities and cities, the enslavement of their people, the lies that were told about their culture, the misinterpretation of their words, and the ways they were made out to look demonized in order to elevate a European country.”
Besides honoring Chadwick Boseman, motherhood, and the dead not being gone, grief, trauma, the effects of colonialism, and the connectivity between African-Mesoamerican indigenous culture are central points of the film. Namor and Shuri and by extension Talokan and Wakanda are explicitly supposed to relate and be equal to one another for this reason. You are supposed to struggle with choosing a side, and Namor is a complex antagonist or even anti-hero rather than an actual villain (An antagonist just opposes or challenges the protagonist in the context of the story, they're not inherently good or evil. Villians are inherently evil and with malice.) Their fight is supposed to feel wrong, intimate, and emotionally charged, unlike most generic action hero fights. They are natural allies, and therefore unnatural enemies.
Namor bent in ways he wouldn't have with anyone else.
This is why it's an in-fandom joke that he was whipped or smitten. What he says on his throne when waging "war", was "Máansa'ab u nej miis tin wich." Josué Maychi confirms that this means, "They passed the cat's tail in front of my face with the hope of an alliance."
"If you see cats, jaguars or panthers when they go hunting they wag their tails because it is a way of hypnotizing the prey, then that image is what happened to Namor, that someone did like that with the tail."
Namor virtually said he was hypnotized, but the Spanish and English translations didn't quite convey that cat-involved metaphor (although keeping the crux of his lament.).
Namor could have killed Riri the moment she touched Talokan grounds, but he showed temporary "mercy" because of Shuri and Shuri alone. He didn't need Shuri's permission nor did he have to communicate with Shuri. Riri was in his domain, Shuri did not really have much power there, yet he treated her as if she did.
"It goes back to the point of him never seeing Shuri as human or recognizing her feelings as valid."
Two of Namor's quotes in the movie alone prove this wrong:
"I know you wanted me to spare the life of the scientist (recognizing and acknowledging what she wants), but now you see what I have to protect."
"So you can understand why I need to kill the scientist."
He didn't need to seek her approval or give her the ability to negotiate with him, yet he did and on top of that dressed her in the finest silks fit for royalty, consistently trying to convince Shuri like her opinion mattered, and that he wanted her on his side. It wasn't that he didn't "recognize her feelings as valid," he just felt that, based on how many of their lives are at stake, he couldn't risk it (Movie quote: "I cannot risk that, princess...").
He was absolutely gobsmacked when she said, "Take me instead." He wouldn't speak then, uncharacteristically breaking eye contact. When he could finally speak, he couldn't answer her directly, his voice awkwardly raised an interval and suddenly, unnecessarily, speaking with his hands.
Shuri wanted to see Talokan, and Namor, the pessimistic isolationist who never let a surfacer step foot in Talokan, immediately caved into her desire. There was no reason for him to do that and it demonstrates an immense level of trust. He also, quite literally, showed her the keys to his kingdom. He waited until she was beside him, looked to see if she was watching him, and then did his hand sign in the rock to open the "doors" to Talokan.
As writer Joe Cole said in The Movie Report panel interview, Shuri demands him to make the right choice that was yielding, and he does yield to her, which wasn't something he'd ever consider in his hundreds of years of being alive.
Namor gives his beloved mother's bracelet to Shuri
Fen was Namor's beloved mother. Her memory is something he held dear to him. The bracelet he gave not only was the last piece of her left with him, but it directly signified his birthright as king, was a priceless national object, and was made with their sacred plant's fibers.
He gives it to Shuri twice. One immediately to hold when he sees she's attracted to it, two he ties on her (after receiving her non-verbal permission, another sign of respect) for her keeping as a "gift of gratitude."
Namor saw his mother in Shuri
Namor saw his mother in her highest state, induced by Shuri. She was unchanged, young, and in their homes, outstretching a hand to him as Shuri metaphorically did.
Namor paints the mural of their fight
in his personal hut no less, where he preserves their history and culture. He paints them entangled in a battle with neither side besting the other. She is the Jaguar-Black Panther, a revered, highly respected animal in Maya culture with connections to godhood, and he is a mere human, humbling himself in a sense. That speaks volumes, and it's furthered when he tells Namora that Shuri had every single reason to kill him. He also speaks very highly of her, stating she's the strongest person on the surface, of the strongest nation.
None of this makes sense AT ALL if he supposedly did not view Shuri as a respected equal, let alone "human." If he somehow doesn't see her as a "human", then he sees her as higher than.
Talokan's "Violence" to Wakanda's "Pacifism"
"Namor and the Talokanil, immediately resort to violence and war when they feel a threat from the surface world. But since no one knows they exist, this threat is hypothetical for now."
This is not true. Talokan has constantly been evasive with relocating being their immediate resort. In the film, Namor says, "Talokan will not move, again" for a reason. They didn't "feel" a threat, there was a threat. People found the Vibranium within their domain and were drilling to seize it. War was a later development after Shuri took killing Riri off the table, which is what Namor initially wanted to do (in the script, this is furthered, with him saying he'd prefer picking off one person to outright war.).
"A direct contrast to Ramonda and Shuri, who in the face of real eminent threats, resorted to peace and showed their aggressors mercy."
Ignoring the insinuation that Namor was not faced with real eminent threats when he was, there is a reason for that contrast. Remember that while Wakanda was being threatened, they have never been conquered or forced to move. They're confirmed less vulnerable than Talokan, who does not have shields and lives in the ocean. They can afford to reveal themselves. Talokan cannot, and they're collateral damage to Wakanda's choice of revealing themselves and the power of Vibranium to the world.
The beginning village of Talokan has been conquered and mass murdered before the rebirth into the blue people we see now, with their ancestral lands plundered and made into slave houses. Namor almost died and was sick in the womb because the conquistadors brought smallpox. His father who he never met died due to their disease. He witnessed countless treacheries, betrayals, and wars from the surface lands. Namor spent his entire childhood watching his mother grieve due to them. As a result, Talokan has a more pessimistic perspective compared to Wakanda's privileged optimistic one.
So yeah, Talokan isn't going to play patty cake with their active aggressors who are trying to plunder them. Nor should they, because Namor is proven right with America actively seeking to destabilize Wakanda under the guise of retrieving Riri (see the meeting Ross has with government officials), and the ending with Val.
Wakanda wants to delay inevitable war and minimize the loss across the board but will go to war if pushed, which is fair. Talokan is tired and ready to give the smoke, striking fast and hard to merely end what threatens them once and for all after centuries of patience and displacement. That is also fair.
"Namor, despite wanting Wakanda’s help with his mission, ultimately doesn’t view Wakanda with anymore sympathy than he does the rest of the world. He has made it clear that he hates the surface world and everyone in it, which includes the Wakandans."
You're right, he doesn't sympathize with Wakanda. There's nothing to sympathize with. He empathizes with them, a stronger feeling and sense of connection than sympathy. He admires Wakanda and feels a sense of kinship, maybe a bit of jealousy (Joe Cole). To him, Wakanda was a threat if they weren't on his side. Why?
A) Wakanda (unintentionally) compromised them by revealing themselves to the world and the power of Vibranium. Now everyone else, armed with that dangerous knowledge, is looking for it to wield it. Wakanda can more or less protect their Vibranium, claiming ownership of it when it's on their lands, they have the power to, and they're the ones who revealed it. But what can Talokan do? They'd be forcefully revealed in some way and be subjected to attacks just because they dared to also have Vibranium.
B) Wakanda is compromising them again by harboring Riri, who is the one source capable of the machine the FBI is currently chasing down. There is no guarantee Riri would stay with them (Riri is not their citizen, and America can easily use her as a means to undercut Wakanda and force them to either give vibranium or fork Riri over, so she can build the machine, and they'll get vibranium anyway through Talokan) or wouldn't rebuild her machine. The solutions Namor could fathom were either taking Riri out of the equation for sure (a case of killing one person and saving everyone else) or taking out the threat of those who seek to exploit her.
C) Wakanda was already shaking hands with nations that wanted to destabilize and plunder them, and will want to do the same with Talokan.
D) Wakanda is the only nation that can rival them that now also knows of their existence. If they're not allies with that information, that's dangerous and makes Talokan vulnerable.
With all things considered and understandably from Namor's perspective, there's no "in-between" here. You can't be "neutral." You either are with them or facilitate your own and their destruction.
This doesn't mean he hates Wakanda or Shuri. It is nothing he wants, but something he perceives he has to do for his people, as their protector, father, god, and king. In the script, this is only further exemplified, by his, "I don’t want it to come to this. But I will not hesitate."
Namor Killing Ramonda
His line of "You are queen now" showed that he was never willing to conduct business with Ramonda likely because she was the only person on the surface world who bested him when she lured him out of Talokan(...). He was simply looking for an excuse to get her out of the picture."
At that point, Ramonda threatened to reveal Talokan. Ramonda purposefully played decoy with him and sent in a war dog to infiltrate their nation and retrieve not only their national threat but the princess who has all of their secrets without a sense of closure. The result of this act was the death of two of his "children". Did you just gloss over that fact, because Ramonda didn't just "lure" him away? He wasn't throwing a fit because he was bested. People literally died? He was cradling a dying child in his arms?
Namor was "willing" to conduct business with Ramonda, proven by the simple fact that he approached Ramonda and gave her the shell to contact him. Namor went out to answer Ramonda's call in the first place when he could've just ignored it when he had what he wanted and more in Talokan.
Namor saying "You're queen now" doesn't at all connect to him not seeing Shuri as an equal. That doesn't make any sense. If anything that undermines your point, because before Shuri is officially crowned, he immediately sees her as the sovereign leader, much like himself.
He says "you're queen now" because Shuri is likely the queen now. It's simple math: Shuri is the heir apparent. There's no royal before her now that is leading.
"It's also another reason why he killed Ramonda with no hesitation despite knowing what he knew about Shuri"
Again, Namor did what he did with no hesitation or care if Ramonda is collateral damage because in his eyes, Ramonda betrayed him, he was acting as a vehicle of vengeance for two souls, and he was defending Talokan. When she stepped in front of Riri glaring him down, that was his final nail in the coffin (no pun intended, please, no pun intended.). It was never personal to him nor did he look at it as him killing Shuri's mom. He was playing the role of a protector and king in conflict with another royal, but of course, it's inherently personal to Shuri because that royal happens to be her mother.
Ryan Coogler confirmed it was not personal for him in the Disney+ movie commentary, Tenoch Huerta says killing the queen was never in his initial plans, and Namor says this himself in the script, explaining he did what he did because the queen "betrayed" him with not only a guard, but a child dying as a result when Shuri was never in danger ("you were safe in my care").
Recklessness With Grief
No, Shuri did not have a better handle on how she externalizes her grief until the final of the movie.
"She recognizes that even though she is angry at T’Challa’s death, the rest of the world doesn’t deserve to feel the extent of her wrath."
That's not at all what she recognized at any point. "It will not be these clothes, I'll burn. It will be the world. And everyone in it."
"Even when Namor does kill her mother, she rightfully directs her anger at him."
At the expense of her people's safety and risk of eternal war. She tells M'Baku straight up that nothing else matters except what she wants, and she wants Namor dead. She threateningly pointed a finger, giving M'Baku no choice and leaving him with the command to help her in her endeavors, even if it meant sending them all to their watery graves.
Nakia: "If you go to war for vengeance, it will not fill the hole left from your loss. It will only grow larger, and it will consume you!"
Shuri: "It already has."
With every blow she landed and exchanged with Namor, we cut back to Wakanda receiving blows and being backed up into a corner.
Namor and Shuri were on collision courses where they were destroying themselves, each other, and their people by not handling their grief properly, being consumed by their vengeance, and committing destructive actions ignited by their pain.
Shuri just later had the strength to break that cycle by recognizing what he said to her back in Talokan ("broken leaders"), their connectivity, and shared traumas. She saved them both and quietened Namor's own flames in the process.
"Sure, she has some outbursts at Nakia and M’baku, but she never really alienates them."
Do not downplay the fact that Shuri is dangerous and was not healthily dealing with her grief, but instead was on a path of destruction. Ryan explicitly states that Namor shares this with Shuri: they're both trying to process and similarly struggle grappling with their grief.
Why else do you think Ramonda took Shuri outside to touch grass and do a ritual? Shuri was not ok. From the moment her beloved brother died, she was not ok. She was not magnanimous to the world. She was angry at it. She thought that there was no point in the Black Panther mantle or herb when T'Challa isn't there. As M'Baku even pointed out, she buried herself in her technology as a coping mechanism, which she ought to stop.
Shuri does alienate Nakia. Not only does she snap several times and harshly shove Nakia off of her after she took the herb, but it's also shown at the beginning of the movie she's ignoring all of her calls. In the script, she explicitly considers Nakia dead, immensely angry she missed T'Challa's funeral.
She doesn't listen to M'baku, but consistently tries to push him and his wisdom away during Ramonda's funeral. She even pushed away and tried closing herself off with Ramonda in the lab and river scene.
Namor's Desire
"All he wanted to do was push her to the extremes of grief so she would become reckless as she was."
Namor's true desire was safety for his people. He didn't want to move again or have to change who they are to survive. Namor later had a genuine desire for an alliance with Wakanda, a nation he canonically admires. Namor didn't want to "push her to the extremes of grief to become like him" because she already was like him. He just wanted to channel their shared feelings of reaping "destruction" to the common enemy.
“I think that a lot of the emotion that I was trying to put into it [Talokan] was this idea that Namor is not wanting to move his people again,” says Beachler. “So there is also, this sense of grieving, even there, of this idea of being encroached upon by humans, who are somewhat inconsiderate of them.”
"Instead you see a mutant emerging not out of genetics, but out of the crucible of oppression. Whereas mutants in the comics are born, in Wakanda Forever, they are made. And that history isn't the side story, it's the entire story. It explains Namor's rage, his desperation, and the path he takes which eventually leads to a collision with Wakanda."
It was never a case of Namor only loving and can love his people while hating everyone else, seeing them as inhuman. Namor was prioritizing what he loved the most above what he may also like, admire, or empathize with. He was fulfilling the role given to him he was forced to take from the moment he was born.
"I mean, “no love” is literally his name."
Let's slow down a bit and mayhaps rethink a little on using the meaning of his alias "Namor" as a point about him being loveless, no? That was a "name" given to him by a racist, slave-owning Conquistador priest who also called him, "son of satan" all the while he was burying his mother, the only and last immediate family he had. Namor took that alias to empower himself and take away the sting. He clearly does have love when all of his life he has been a selfless agent for his people. He thought a single or two lives were worth war over. Yes, he explicitly said it was to convey he had "no love" for the surface, but there is context to that.
"Wanting to destroy the whole world, funny enough, including other Mayan descendants who were enslaved or colonized"
When Namor burned down the Hacienda, slaves ran free. Only the Consquisdators were killed. The village elder relayed that they know of Namor's existence and were able to live with that knowledge. The only ones who died were the ones who sought him out with ill intent. The script also featured the factoid of Namor saving the elder and her husband from drowning on their wedding night, if that's worth anything. In the movie, he doesn't want to include Wakanda in the mix of the nations they're at war with either.
Clearly, he is discriminatory with who he'd kill. Who said he'd include Mayan descendants that were enslaved and colonized? The last time I checked, the only person who said anything about burning everyone was Shuri.
Namor: "It is no longer about the scientist. For centuries, the surface nations have conquered and enslaved people like us. Over resources. Since the day I buried my mother, I have prepared my people for the time they would come for us. And that machine? Is the sign that the time is now. I need to know if Wakanda is an ally, or an enemy. There is no in-between."
Shuri: "So you plan to wage war on the entire world, and want Wakanda to help you?"
Namor: [leans in and nods slightly]
Shuri: "That's madness!"
Namor: "There isn't a nation that wouldn't plunder Wakanda if given a chance. If we make an alliance, we can protect each other by striking them first. Then, when the threat of these nations have been eliminated, the scientist will be returned to Wakanda."
Namor wanting to remove the teeth from the lion's mouth and hitting first isn't the same thing as destroying everything and anything. Mind you, he is being chaotic, but he clearly has a concentrated target. Don't get it twisted.
Namor's Regret
It is suggested that Namor in particular felt regret and dislike for the situation in interviews, script, and in-film.
A) Namor is seen pensively on his throne, touching and cradling the shell phone as he awaits contact.
B) Namor's, "It could've been different."
C) Interestingly, Ryan and Joe Cole corroborated in The Movie Report panel interview, more regret was in every blow exchanged. Namor in particular did not want to exchange a fatal blow until he was pushed to impale Shuri on the rock in a desperate attempt to his life.
Equaling and Relating
Relating to someone is different from equalling someone. Out of all who were listed, whether it was Peter Parker, Riri Williams, or Namor, Namor is the only one out of those that is explicitly and purposefully depicted as equalling and relating to Shuri.
Namor And Shuri
The reasoning given for how Shuri works paired with Peter Parker or Riri Williams strongly applies to Shuri with Namor, so operating under the same logic, they largely work too.
"What makes both of these pairings work to a degree is the idea of them being equal in some regard(...) They clearly see each other as equal. They more or less agree on a common enemy and how to deal with said enemy, with morals and values that more or less align."
They do agree on a common enemy. That's literally half of the premise for Namor proposing an alliance where they protect one another. The problem just was how they go about handling things. Tragedy, trauma, and dramatic irony unfavorably played factors.
Otherwise, they're practically the same, and are now on the "same page". Their morals and values aren't far off either. Wakanda and Talokan are eerily similar, whether it be in having spying channels, an isolationistic approach, finding jurisdiction wherever they feel it (aka, if it regards and threatens them), only wanting to protect what they love, embracing-involving their culture-traditions, being environmentalists, and using defensive-offensive means if provoked by a perceived threat.
In visuals alone, they took great care to portray Shuri and Namor as Parallel Characters.
The "boy without love" and the "child who scoffs at tradition." They do have a few healthy differences (I'll save that for another article), but they are equal and deeply relate.
As said on The Movie Report panel interview, Shuri became the Panther god (the Black Panther is canonically Bast's avatar), while he is the god of his civilization. They're both royals and leaders of their own nations. Said nations are sister nations, both having the power of vibranium and the highest levels of advancement. They are both broken and with a shared trauma etched deep in their hearts. They both have a righteous, divine fire and an acute sense of avenging. They both were haunted by similar grief and pain that pushed them to seek solace in one another.
Namor is described as lonely and with loneliness by Ryan Coogler, and that's exactly how Shuri felt in the beginning as well (see her Interlude), and unfortunately, later in the movie after Ramonda "dies" (but in the end, it's revealed that Ramonda, like T'Challa, is not gone.). They brought innovative technology and a new era of living to their people. They share the same love languages: acts of service and gifts.
There was an entire montage near the end of the film showcasing this.
Riri Williams
Riri Williams relates to Shuri in a sense of being young black women whose intelligence and talents aren't always respected by their elders. They can also relate to their fathers being murdered (if they take a page out of comics for Riri, see Ironheart #9) or the loved ones that taught them what they know being ripped away from them. Maybe they also know about diffusion too as geeks, but it stops there.
Riri, like Peter, is a teenager (19 years old) new to college (the same college Okoye states is the equivalent of a Wakandan elementary school), trying to grapple with her emerging life and school. Shuri is a princess of the most powerful nation and head of Wakandan Technology. She completed the journey of school and became a college assistant at the age of 13. Wakanda Forever was Riri's debut and entry into the game. Wakanda Forever was Shuri, who is already a non-teenaged adult at this point, journeying through her womanhood and immense grief. Shuri is not new to the game, having been in countless wars and accumulated countless experiences Riri has yet to touch.
Throughout the film, Shuri acted as the voice Riri didn't have that Namor would hear, largely due to T'Challa's influence. At the end of the film, Riri invites Shuri to a basketball game. Shuri says no, prioritizing her duties and having a full plate compared to Riri's less uncomplicated, lighthearted one. This alone highlights their differences in placement and mental space.
Big sisters do not "equal" their younger siblings. They guide and protect, having some level of authority and experience over them.
And That's Perfectly By Design
Riri and Shuri are not equals and have noticeable divergences where one cannot ever relate to or feel what the other does. Shuri won't know how Riri feels the need to prove herself as a black woman in a society where black people, black women, are given the shorter end of the stick. Shuri doesn't know anything about how it is for African Americans and law enforcement. Riri won't know the privileges or how it feels like to carry the burdens Shuri does to the extent she does. Riri does not entirely relate to Shuri's grief either. Riri was a fish out of water who constantly wanted to go home despite the beauty and safety in Wakanda. They belong to two different worlds.
It is great that they have these differences because, in the words of Dominque Thorne, they can learn from each other. Their relationship in the film is contextualized as Shuri perceiving Riri as her reflection and then taking on a mentor role. Riri is, in Letitia's words, a reflection of T'Challa's choice. There are several parallels between Riri-Shuri and T'Challa-Shuri. It gives Shuri more of a personal incentive and investment in the outreach program her brother enacted. T'Challa had the connection, learning experience, and realization of the Lost Tribe and their struggles through N'Jadaka. Shuri now has that with Riri, but positively! Riri also can offer a breath of fresh air every now and again, fulfilling the chemistry she had (bubbly, plucky younger one) with T'Challa (the more composed, older, responsible one).
Whether you want to mold and configure this into a romantic dynamic, is up to you. The point is that yes they relate, yes they do have chemistry, but no, Riri and Shuri aren't equals.
Peter Parker
Hypothetically, Peter relates to Shuri in their intelligence (although I'd argue Shuri is smarter, Shuri's probably smarter than everyone), but that doesn't at all suggest they'd have the same interests. It doesn't work like that.
Peter (2001 baby) is younger than Shuri (1997-1998). He is just starting college. Shuri is around 22, 23 years old due to the snap. She was 19, 20 in Infinity War. Peter was 16. It's not a big age gap, but I wouldn't say they're peers. Age proximity doesn't indicate relatability either, especially if the maturity levels and experiences differ.
However, I will say, I think Peter and Shuri can relate to being orphans that do feel lonely (although Shuri lost and later gained family, Peter is left off completely alone), going through personal dark arcs, and suffering immense pain that changes the trajectory of their lives. They used to be more lighthearted, but now were forced to grow up and their perspectives darkened.
That's about it though. They aren't on the same wavelength or of the same caliber when it comes to their types of threats, challenges, and predicaments. Namor could entirely relate with her being another nation of vibranium of a culture the other nations seek to destabilize, destroy, or conquer, as well as someone with a similar depth and sense of grief. Riri could relate as a black woman living in America (lost tribe) who'd know a thing or two about persecution and was thrown into the mix between the Talokan-Wakanda conflict. Peter?
This isn't factoring in their standings either, with Shuri being an heir apparent and leader of the strongest nation on the surface with Peter being "your friendly (and now depressed) neighborhood Spiderman" that occasionally gets thrown outside his payroll.
Peter and Shuri can probably relate and it's easy to assume they'd have chemistry and may do a little chemistry together. But they do not equal either.
In Conclusion
Yes, ship and let ship. These are all great fictional characters with compelling dynamics. Shipping is largely for fun and often depends on the person's taste.
Looking at this from a perspective of a writer and storyteller, there's no such thing as it "not" working or "making sense" unless you have, excuse my language, shit and uninspiring writing.
I don't normally wade into this type of thing, (in fact Tumblr recommended this post to me like a dozen times before I finally read it) but I have to say, I love a well written argument, that cites sources to support said argument, especially outside of the original media in question. And doubly so when the cited supporting sources are direct quotes from the creators and architects of said media in question. It speaks to intention vs execution.
Shipping is not important. At all.
Well intentioned, well executed character and story is very important. Imperfect media is usually the result, despite intention, because there is no such thing as perfection. But here I find the intention closely matches the execution and the resultant film is, IMO, near-perfect. And that's a testament to Coogler and the skilled creators/artisans he had help him build this world and shape these characters with very specific intention. When people argue about things like "shipping" it seems to me that they often forgo a good faith argument based on something you can reasonably prove, and just go with feelings and perceptions. Which is fine. But let's call a thing a thing.
From this argument, made with supporting evidence cited from such credible sources of information, one thing makes a little more sense than several others. And I feel it's important to acknowledge that.
Sorry, had to nerd out all over this post. This is just a good argument.
Re: Namor x Shuri working from a storytelling standpoint
I stumbled on a post trying to give an analysis of how Namor and Shuri "don't work" from a storytelling standpoint. After reading several of the objectionable points made and realizing I've seen them all before, I felt like trying my own hand to exemplify why these kinds of criticisms against "Nashuri" don't actually work. I didn't directly reblog to avoid being convoluted or dogpiling, but I'll be responding to specific points throughout.
Direct quotes are in orange
Linked sources and further information are in green
Warning: This article has many layers, musings, and points. After all, it's essentially a master collection of material. If you just want to jump to a certain point, you can. There are subtitles for every point.
The Oxymoron of Improbable and "Non-Sensical" Story Writing
In the context of specifically Wakanda Forever's story and nothing else, yes: as of now, Namor and Shuri being a romantic couple does not make "sense."
However, there is no such thing as a ship that doesn't make sense from a story-writing perspective.
With your pen, reality can be shaped according to your whim, or elements can be bent to fit the mold of a given reality. Story-writing-wise, anything can happen, and anything can work with the proper execution. A good writer knows how to suspend the reader's disbelief and make the seemingly improbable, seem probable.
Namor and Shuri already have the ingredients for chemistry and compatibility as characters, which are the two essential requirements in relationships. The media they're in gives you the room to potentially address their circumstance, like reviving Ramonda (coming back to life is no foreign concept to Marvel) or building off of the concepts already there (e.g., the Ancestral Plane or "dead not meaning gone"). There are also AUs.
Saying otherwise is simply putting a cap on your creativity and demonstrates a sheer lack of imagination.
Why Do People Ship Namor And Shuri?
To answer this question, Namor and Shuri:
Have undeniably strong chemistry. That was the first thing that had people question what their relationship would be. You don't have to register this as inherently romantic, but they have chemistry nevertheless.
Deeply connected with and paralleled-equaled one another. Shuri opened up to only Namor about her true grief. With Ramonda, Shuri closed herself off. When her mask cracked, she lamented that if she sat and merely thought of T'Challa, she'd burn the world and everyone in it. The ancestral plane, tethered to her subconscious and emotional state, lit up on fire the moment N'Jadaka mentioned T'Challa. Yet... Shuri felt that she could be emotionally vulnerable to Namor, seeking solace and answers within him. She could not only think of but also talk about T'Challa with Namor. This is after Namor was, in exchange, completely vulnerable and honest to her, showing her his scars and his cherished nation. Both characters did things they wouldn't do with anyone else. They felt seen and heard by the other. That is a beautiful testament to the bond they were forging before uh, yeah.
Shuri was healing in Talokan. It is directly said in the script Shuri was better than she was before she left, but the movie let it be a "show, don't tell." We already established she was finally unveiling her grief to Namor, but Talokan was also an escape for her. Her behavior and attitude were a sheer contrast to how she was earlier in the movie. Shuri was shown beaming, marveling at, and practically glowing as Namor showed her his world. Approximately, she genuinely smiled 11 times in under 3 minutes. She forgot her worries. The tension rolled off of her and let herself go "with the breeze". Her admiration and sense of wonder made him smile too. She was taken care of, a shame that her reason of stay wasn't preferable.
Shared several purposefully intimate moments.
Look hot and are hot together. Argue with a wall.
Can be the strongest, most unstoppable MCU power couple to date.
Create a rich, ethnic, and main poc ship and representation between a black African woman and a brown-skinned indigenous man. That's not common at all, and the thought of their cultures being connected, becoming one through their union is hair-twirling inducing. The idea of them creating a new era filled to the brim with their respective cultures and identities together, with them learning from one another, is very interesting.
They have many, many classic romantic-fantastical tropes poured into the batter that is their dynamic. You may have heard the comparisons to Beauty and The Beast (say thank you, Riri!), Aladdin ("I Can Show You The World"), Peter Pan and Wendy (Namor is deemed of a "Peter Pan" archetype. "Peter Pan" lost his Wendy, who is Shuri in this case. See Inframundo.) and Hades-Persephone.
The only reason why they're on opposite ends is due to outer forces and unfavorable circumstances at work. There's something interesting about their nuanced tragedy. There's a fun intrigue to find a way to "fix" what seems broken beyond repair, through understanding, love, character development, and healing.
Have a romantic anthem: Con La Brisa is a tender love song specifically created based on the underwater scene between Namor and Shuri. Foudequesh revealed that the meaning of the song was showing someone the sun for the first time.
Additionally, Namor and Shuri having romantic chemistry is not baseless. It was initially toyed with. Though they decided to characterize their relationship a bit differently and focus on grief-shared trauma, elements were still left in to give their relationship complexity. The way they relate and the things they did gave romantic undertones you can't just pluck out. Micheal P. Shawver, a colleague of Ryan Coogler and an editor of Wakanda Forever, said this much when asked about the possibility of Namor and Shuri having romance in their cards.
Note how Ryan Coogler, a writer and director of both Black Panther, even apparently thinks that Namor and Shuri are not unsuited for one another even then.
You can also view the original script where Namor is described as "charmed" and "smitten" with Shuri. It's only natural people pick up the pieces purposefully left behind.
Clarification Notes
Before we jump into this, there are things you need to know.
Note 1: None of this is bashing or permission to bash Ramonda, Riri, Shuri, or Nakia. They were justified and operating under grief and dramatic irony if you look at it from every perspective. Currently, this is just clearing up Namor and Talokan's perspectives because that is what's being targetted and unceremoniously characterized, but everyone has a case for them.
Note 2: This doesn't mean you need to ship Shuri and Namor. It's explaining why some do and clearing up misconceptions about their dynamic as well as individual characters. Your takeaway should be this and valueable information on Black Panther, not a decree of what you should or shouldn't ship.
Positive and Negative Chemistry
"Positive" and "negative" chemistry is confusing terminology at best and doesn't exist at worse. It's either you have or lack chemistry. There are also two different kinds of chemistry: platonic and romantic.
When describing how characters wouldn't be compatible in a given relationship, you may be looking for the term, "compatibility".
Chemistry: magnetism, attraction, and natural connection. Compatibility: a more "logical" component: your degree of harmony and cohesiveness.
You can have chemistry without compatibility, and compatibility without chemistry. Healthy and long-lasting relationships have both.
Namor's view of Shuri
Namor does not view Shuri as an equal, despite their similarities.
Pause. Namor does view Shuri as an equal. Shuri is arguably the person he respects the most.
The idea That Namor-Talokan does not relate, respect, connect with, or even view Shuri-Wakanda as human directly goes against the meta-pillar theme of Wakanda Forever.
You said it yourself:
"these are fictional characters (who represent real-world dynamics)"
“We talked to so many experts and really made relationships with them, because there was a lot to go through,” says Beachler. “There are a lot of parallels between Africans and Latin Americans as far as the colonization of their communities and cities, the enslavement of their people, the lies that were told about their culture, the misinterpretation of their words, and the ways they were made out to look demonized in order to elevate a European country.”
Besides honoring Chadwick Boseman, motherhood, and the dead not being gone, grief, trauma, the effects of colonialism, and the connectivity between African-Mesoamerican indigenous culture are central points of the film. Namor and Shuri and by extension Talokan and Wakanda are explicitly supposed to relate and be equal to one another for this reason. You are supposed to struggle with choosing a side, and Namor is a complex antagonist or even anti-hero rather than an actual villain (An antagonist just opposes or challenges the protagonist in the context of the story, they're not inherently good or evil. Villians are inherently evil and with malice.) Their fight is supposed to feel wrong, intimate, and emotionally charged, unlike most generic action hero fights. They are natural allies, and therefore unnatural enemies.
Namor bent in ways he wouldn't have with anyone else.
This is why it's an in-fandom joke that he was whipped or smitten. What he says on his throne when waging "war", was "Máansa'ab u nej miis tin wich." Josué Maychi confirms that this means, "They passed the cat's tail in front of my face with the hope of an alliance."
"If you see cats, jaguars or panthers when they go hunting they wag their tails because it is a way of hypnotizing the prey, then that image is what happened to Namor, that someone did like that with the tail."
Namor virtually said he was hypnotized, but the Spanish and English translations didn't quite convey that cat-involved metaphor (although keeping the crux of his lament.).
Namor could have killed Riri the moment she touched Talokan grounds, but he showed temporary "mercy" because of Shuri and Shuri alone. He didn't need Shuri's permission nor did he have to communicate with Shuri. Riri was in his domain, Shuri did not really have much power there, yet he treated her as if she did.
"It goes back to the point of him never seeing Shuri as human or recognizing her feelings as valid."
Two of Namor's quotes in the movie alone prove this wrong:
"I know you wanted me to spare the life of the scientist (recognizing and acknowledging what she wants), but now you see what I have to protect."
"So you can understand why I need to kill the scientist."
He didn't need to seek her approval or give her the ability to negotiate with him, yet he did and on top of that dressed her in the finest silks fit for royalty, consistently trying to convince Shuri like her opinion mattered, and that he wanted her on his side. It wasn't that he didn't "recognize her feelings as valid," he just felt that, based on how many of their lives are at stake, he couldn't risk it (Movie quote: "I cannot risk that, princess...").
He was absolutely gobsmacked when she said, "Take me instead." He wouldn't speak then, uncharacteristically breaking eye contact. When he could finally speak, he couldn't answer her directly, his voice awkwardly raised an interval and suddenly, unnecessarily, speaking with his hands.
Shuri wanted to see Talokan, and Namor, the pessimistic isolationist who never let a surfacer step foot in Talokan, immediately caved into her desire. There was no reason for him to do that and it demonstrates an immense level of trust. He also, quite literally, showed her the keys to his kingdom. He waited until she was beside him, looked to see if she was watching him, and then did his hand sign in the rock to open the "doors" to Talokan.
As writer Joe Cole said in The Movie Report panel interview, Shuri demands him to make the right choice that was yielding, and he does yield to her, which wasn't something he'd ever consider in his hundreds of years of being alive.
Namor gives his beloved mother's bracelet to Shuri
Fen was Namor's beloved mother. Her memory is something he held dear to him. The bracelet he gave not only was the last piece of her left with him, but it directly signified his birthright as king, was a priceless national object, and was made with their sacred plant's fibers.
He gives it to Shuri twice. One immediately to hold when he sees she's attracted to it, two he ties on her (after receiving her non-verbal permission, another sign of respect) for her keeping as a "gift of gratitude."
Namor saw his mother in Shuri
Namor saw his mother in her highest state, induced by Shuri. She was unchanged, young, and in their homes, outstretching a hand to him as Shuri metaphorically did.
Namor paints the mural of their fight
in his personal hut no less, where he preserves their history and culture. He paints them entangled in a battle with neither side besting the other. She is the Jaguar-Black Panther, a revered, highly respected animal in Maya culture with connections to godhood, and he is a mere human, humbling himself in a sense. That speaks volumes, and it's furthered when he tells Namora that Shuri had every single reason to kill him. He also speaks very highly of her, stating she's the strongest person on the surface, of the strongest nation.
None of this makes sense AT ALL if he supposedly did not view Shuri as a respected equal, let alone "human." If he somehow doesn't see her as a "human", then he sees her as higher than.
Talokan's "Violence" to Wakanda's "Pacifism"
"Namor and the Talokanil, immediately resort to violence and war when they feel a threat from the surface world. But since no one knows they exist, this threat is hypothetical for now."
This is not true. Talokan has constantly been evasive with relocating being their immediate resort. In the film, Namor says, "Talokan will not move, again" for a reason. They didn't "feel" a threat, there was a threat. People found the Vibranium within their domain and were drilling to seize it. War was a later development after Shuri took killing Riri off the table, which is what Namor initially wanted to do (in the script, this is furthered, with him saying he'd prefer picking off one person to outright war.).
"A direct contrast to Ramonda and Shuri, who in the face of real eminent threats, resorted to peace and showed their aggressors mercy."
Ignoring the insinuation that Namor was not faced with real eminent threats when he was, there is a reason for that contrast. Remember that while Wakanda was being threatened, they have never been conquered or forced to move. They're confirmed less vulnerable than Talokan, who does not have shields and lives in the ocean. They can afford to reveal themselves. Talokan cannot, and they're collateral damage to Wakanda's choice of revealing themselves and the power of Vibranium to the world.
The beginning village of Talokan has been conquered and mass murdered before the rebirth into the blue people we see now, with their ancestral lands plundered and made into slave houses. Namor almost died and was sick in the womb because the conquistadors brought smallpox. His father who he never met died due to their disease. He witnessed countless treacheries, betrayals, and wars from the surface lands. Namor spent his entire childhood watching his mother grieve due to them. As a result, Talokan has a more pessimistic perspective compared to Wakanda's privileged optimistic one.
So yeah, Talokan isn't going to play patty cake with their active aggressors who are trying to plunder them. Nor should they, because Namor is proven right with America actively seeking to destabilize Wakanda under the guise of retrieving Riri (see the meeting Ross has with government officials), and the ending with Val.
Wakanda wants to delay inevitable war and minimize the loss across the board but will go to war if pushed, which is fair. Talokan is tired and ready to give the smoke, striking fast and hard to merely end what threatens them once and for all after centuries of patience and displacement. That is also fair.
"Namor, despite wanting Wakanda’s help with his mission, ultimately doesn’t view Wakanda with anymore sympathy than he does the rest of the world. He has made it clear that he hates the surface world and everyone in it, which includes the Wakandans."
You're right, he doesn't sympathize with Wakanda. There's nothing to sympathize with. He empathizes with them, a stronger feeling and sense of connection than sympathy. He admires Wakanda and feels a sense of kinship, maybe a bit of jealousy (Joe Cole). To him, Wakanda was a threat if they weren't on his side. Why?
A) Wakanda (unintentionally) compromised them by revealing themselves to the world and the power of Vibranium. Now everyone else, armed with that dangerous knowledge, is looking for it to wield it. Wakanda can more or less protect their Vibranium, claiming ownership of it when it's on their lands, they have the power to, and they're the ones who revealed it. But what can Talokan do? They'd be forcefully revealed in some way and be subjected to attacks just because they dared to also have Vibranium.
B) Wakanda is compromising them again by harboring Riri, who is the one source capable of the machine the FBI is currently chasing down. There is no guarantee Riri would stay with them (Riri is not their citizen, and America can easily use her as a means to undercut Wakanda and force them to either give vibranium or fork Riri over, so she can build the machine, and they'll get vibranium anyway through Talokan) or wouldn't rebuild her machine. The solutions Namor could fathom were either taking Riri out of the equation for sure (a case of killing one person and saving everyone else) or taking out the threat of those who seek to exploit her.
C) Wakanda was already shaking hands with nations that wanted to destabilize and plunder them, and will want to do the same with Talokan.
D) Wakanda is the only nation that can rival them that now also knows of their existence. If they're not allies with that information, that's dangerous and makes Talokan vulnerable.
With all things considered and understandably from Namor's perspective, there's no "in-between" here. You can't be "neutral." You either are with them or facilitate your own and their destruction.
This doesn't mean he hates Wakanda or Shuri. It is nothing he wants, but something he perceives he has to do for his people, as their protector, father, god, and king. In the script, this is only further exemplified, by his, "I don’t want it to come to this. But I will not hesitate."
Namor Killing Ramonda
His line of "You are queen now" showed that he was never willing to conduct business with Ramonda likely because she was the only person on the surface world who bested him when she lured him out of Talokan(...). He was simply looking for an excuse to get her out of the picture."
At that point, Ramonda threatened to reveal Talokan. Ramonda purposefully played decoy with him and sent in a war dog to infiltrate their nation and retrieve not only their national threat but the princess who has all of their secrets without a sense of closure. The result of this act was the death of two of his "children". Did you just gloss over that fact, because Ramonda didn't just "lure" him away? He wasn't throwing a fit because he was bested. People literally died? He was cradling a dying child in his arms?
Namor was "willing" to conduct business with Ramonda, proven by the simple fact that he approached Ramonda and gave her the shell to contact him. Namor went out to answer Ramonda's call in the first place when he could've just ignored it when he had what he wanted and more in Talokan.
Namor saying "You're queen now" doesn't at all connect to him not seeing Shuri as an equal. That doesn't make any sense. If anything that undermines your point, because before Shuri is officially crowned, he immediately sees her as the sovereign leader, much like himself.
He says "you're queen now" because Shuri is likely the queen now. It's simple math: Shuri is the heir apparent. There's no royal before her now that is leading.
"It's also another reason why he killed Ramonda with no hesitation despite knowing what he knew about Shuri"
Again, Namor did what he did with no hesitation or care if Ramonda is collateral damage because in his eyes, Ramonda betrayed him, he was acting as a vehicle of vengeance for two souls, and he was defending Talokan. When she stepped in front of Riri glaring him down, that was his final nail in the coffin (no pun intended, please, no pun intended.). It was never personal to him nor did he look at it as him killing Shuri's mom. He was playing the role of a protector and king in conflict with another royal, but of course, it's inherently personal to Shuri because that royal happens to be her mother.
Ryan Coogler confirmed it was not personal for him in the Disney+ movie commentary, Tenoch Huerta says killing the queen was never in his initial plans, and Namor says this himself in the script, explaining he did what he did because the queen "betrayed" him with not only a guard, but a child dying as a result when Shuri was never in danger ("you were safe in my care").
Recklessness With Grief
No, Shuri did not have a better handle on how she externalizes her grief until the final of the movie.
"She recognizes that even though she is angry at T’Challa’s death, the rest of the world doesn’t deserve to feel the extent of her wrath."
That's not at all what she recognized at any point. "It will not be these clothes, I'll burn. It will be the world. And everyone in it."
"Even when Namor does kill her mother, she rightfully directs her anger at him."
At the expense of her people's safety and risk of eternal war. She tells M'Baku straight up that nothing else matters except what she wants, and she wants Namor dead. She threateningly pointed a finger, giving M'Baku no choice and leaving him with the command to help her in her endeavors, even if it meant sending them all to their watery graves.
Nakia: "If you go to war for vengeance, it will not fill the hole left from your loss. It will only grow larger, and it will consume you!"
Shuri: "It already has."
With every blow she landed and exchanged with Namor, we cut back to Wakanda receiving blows and being backed up into a corner.
Namor and Shuri were on collision courses where they were destroying themselves, each other, and their people by not handling their grief properly, being consumed by their vengeance, and committing destructive actions ignited by their pain.
Shuri just later had the strength to break that cycle by recognizing what he said to her back in Talokan ("broken leaders"), their connectivity, and shared traumas. She saved them both and quietened Namor's own flames in the process.
"Sure, she has some outbursts at Nakia and M’baku, but she never really alienates them."
Do not downplay the fact that Shuri is dangerous and was not healthily dealing with her grief, but instead was on a path of destruction. Ryan explicitly states that Namor shares this with Shuri: they're both trying to process and similarly struggle grappling with their grief.
Why else do you think Ramonda took Shuri outside to touch grass and do a ritual? Shuri was not ok. From the moment her beloved brother died, she was not ok. She was not magnanimous to the world. She was angry at it. She thought that there was no point in the Black Panther mantle or herb when T'Challa isn't there. As M'Baku even pointed out, she buried herself in her technology as a coping mechanism, which she ought to stop.
Shuri does alienate Nakia. Not only does she snap several times and harshly shove Nakia off of her after she took the herb, but it's also shown at the beginning of the movie she's ignoring all of her calls. In the script, she explicitly considers Nakia dead, immensely angry she missed T'Challa's funeral.
She doesn't listen to M'baku, but consistently tries to push him and his wisdom away during Ramonda's funeral. She even pushed away and tried closing herself off with Ramonda in the lab and river scene.
Namor's Desire
"All he wanted to do was push her to the extremes of grief so she would become reckless as she was."
Namor's true desire was safety for his people. He didn't want to move again or have to change who they are to survive. Namor later had a genuine desire for an alliance with Wakanda, a nation he canonically admires. Namor didn't want to "push her to the extremes of grief to become like him" because she already was like him. He just wanted to channel their shared feelings of reaping "destruction" to the common enemy.
“I think that a lot of the emotion that I was trying to put into it [Talokan] was this idea that Namor is not wanting to move his people again,” says Beachler. “So there is also, this sense of grieving, even there, of this idea of being encroached upon by humans, who are somewhat inconsiderate of them.”
"Instead you see a mutant emerging not out of genetics, but out of the crucible of oppression. Whereas mutants in the comics are born, in Wakanda Forever, they are made. And that history isn't the side story, it's the entire story. It explains Namor's rage, his desperation, and the path he takes which eventually leads to a collision with Wakanda."
It was never a case of Namor only loving and can love his people while hating everyone else, seeing them as inhuman. Namor was prioritizing what he loved the most above what he may also like, admire, or empathize with. He was fulfilling the role given to him he was forced to take from the moment he was born.
"I mean, “no love” is literally his name."
Let's slow down a bit and mayhaps rethink a little on using the meaning of his alias "Namor" as a point about him being loveless, no? That was a "name" given to him by a racist, slave-owning Conquistador priest who also called him, "son of satan" all the while he was burying his mother, the only and last immediate family he had. Namor took that alias to empower himself and take away the sting. He clearly does have love when all of his life he has been a selfless agent for his people. He thought a single or two lives were worth war over. Yes, he explicitly said it was to convey he had "no love" for the surface, but there is context to that.
"Wanting to destroy the whole world, funny enough, including other Mayan descendants who were enslaved or colonized"
When Namor burned down the Hacienda, slaves ran free. Only the Consquisdators were killed. The village elder relayed that they know of Namor's existence and were able to live with that knowledge. The only ones who died were the ones who sought him out with ill intent. The script also featured the factoid of Namor saving the elder and her husband from drowning on their wedding night, if that's worth anything. In the movie, he doesn't want to include Wakanda in the mix of the nations they're at war with either.
Clearly, he is discriminatory with who he'd kill. Who said he'd include Mayan descendants that were enslaved and colonized? The last time I checked, the only person who said anything about burning everyone was Shuri.
Namor: "It is no longer about the scientist. For centuries, the surface nations have conquered and enslaved people like us. Over resources. Since the day I buried my mother, I have prepared my people for the time they would come for us. And that machine? Is the sign that the time is now. I need to know if Wakanda is an ally, or an enemy. There is no in-between."
Shuri: "So you plan to wage war on the entire world, and want Wakanda to help you?"
Namor: [leans in and nods slightly]
Shuri: "That's madness!"
Namor: "There isn't a nation that wouldn't plunder Wakanda if given a chance. If we make an alliance, we can protect each other by striking them first. Then, when the threat of these nations have been eliminated, the scientist will be returned to Wakanda."
Namor wanting to remove the teeth from the lion's mouth and hitting first isn't the same thing as destroying everything and anything. Mind you, he is being chaotic, but he clearly has a concentrated target. Don't get it twisted.
Namor's Regret
It is suggested that Namor in particular felt regret and dislike for the situation in interviews, script, and in-film.
A) Namor is seen pensively on his throne, touching and cradling the shell phone as he awaits contact.
B) Namor's, "It could've been different."
C) Interestingly, Ryan and Joe Cole corroborated in The Movie Report panel interview, more regret was in every blow exchanged. Namor in particular did not want to exchange a fatal blow until he was pushed to impale Shuri on the rock in a desperate attempt to his life.
Equaling and Relating
Relating to someone is different from equalling someone. Out of all who were listed, whether it was Peter Parker, Riri Williams, or Namor, Namor is the only one out of those that is explicitly and purposefully depicted as equalling and relating to Shuri.
Namor And Shuri
The reasoning given for how Shuri works paired with Peter Parker or Riri Williams strongly applies to Shuri with Namor, so operating under the same logic, they largely work too.
"What makes both of these pairings work to a degree is the idea of them being equal in some regard(...) They clearly see each other as equal. They more or less agree on a common enemy and how to deal with said enemy, with morals and values that more or less align."
They do agree on a common enemy. That's literally half of the premise for Namor proposing an alliance where they protect one another. The problem just was how they go about handling things. Tragedy, trauma, and dramatic irony unfavorably played factors.
Otherwise, they're practically the same, and are now on the "same page". Their morals and values aren't far off either. Wakanda and Talokan are eerily similar, whether it be in having spying channels, an isolationistic approach, finding jurisdiction wherever they feel it (aka, if it regards and threatens them), only wanting to protect what they love, embracing-involving their culture-traditions, being environmentalists, and using defensive-offensive means if provoked by a perceived threat.
In visuals alone, they took great care to portray Shuri and Namor as Parallel Characters.
The "boy without love" and the "child who scoffs at tradition." They do have a few healthy differences (I'll save that for another article), but they are equal and deeply relate.
As said on The Movie Report panel interview, Shuri became the Panther god (the Black Panther is canonically Bast's avatar), while he is the god of his civilization. They're both royals and leaders of their own nations. Said nations are sister nations, both having the power of vibranium and the highest levels of advancement. They are both broken and with a shared trauma etched deep in their hearts. They both have a righteous, divine fire and an acute sense of avenging. They both were haunted by similar grief and pain that pushed them to seek solace in one another.
Namor is described as lonely and with loneliness by Ryan Coogler, and that's exactly how Shuri felt in the beginning as well (see her Interlude), and unfortunately, later in the movie after Ramonda "dies" (but in the end, it's revealed that Ramonda, like T'Challa, is not gone.). They brought innovative technology and a new era of living to their people. They share the same love languages: acts of service and gifts.
There was an entire montage near the end of the film showcasing this.
Riri Williams
Riri Williams relates to Shuri in a sense of being young black women whose intelligence and talents aren't always respected by their elders. They can also relate to their fathers being murdered (if they take a page out of comics for Riri, see Ironheart #9) or the loved ones that taught them what they know being ripped away from them. Maybe they also know about diffusion too as geeks, but it stops there.
Riri, like Peter, is a teenager (19 years old) new to college (the same college Okoye states is the equivalent of a Wakandan elementary school), trying to grapple with her emerging life and school. Shuri is a princess of the most powerful nation and head of Wakandan Technology. She completed the journey of school and became a college assistant at the age of 13. Wakanda Forever was Riri's debut and entry into the game. Wakanda Forever was Shuri, who is already a non-teenaged adult at this point, journeying through her womanhood and immense grief. Shuri is not new to the game, having been in countless wars and accumulated countless experiences Riri has yet to touch.
Throughout the film, Shuri acted as the voice Riri didn't have that Namor would hear, largely due to T'Challa's influence. At the end of the film, Riri invites Shuri to a basketball game. Shuri says no, prioritizing her duties and having a full plate compared to Riri's less uncomplicated, lighthearted one. This alone highlights their differences in placement and mental space.
Big sisters do not "equal" their younger siblings. They guide and protect, having some level of authority and experience over them.
And That's Perfectly By Design
Riri and Shuri are not equals and have noticeable divergences where one cannot ever relate to or feel what the other does. Shuri won't know how Riri feels the need to prove herself as a black woman in a society where black people, black women, are given the shorter end of the stick. Shuri doesn't know anything about how it is for African Americans and law enforcement. Riri won't know the privileges or how it feels like to carry the burdens Shuri does to the extent she does. Riri does not entirely relate to Shuri's grief either. Riri was a fish out of water who constantly wanted to go home despite the beauty and safety in Wakanda. They belong to two different worlds.
It is great that they have these differences because, in the words of Dominque Thorne, they can learn from each other. Their relationship in the film is contextualized as Shuri perceiving Riri as her reflection and then taking on a mentor role. Riri is, in Letitia's words, a reflection of T'Challa's choice. There are several parallels between Riri-Shuri and T'Challa-Shuri. It gives Shuri more of a personal incentive and investment in the outreach program her brother enacted. T'Challa had the connection, learning experience, and realization of the Lost Tribe and their struggles through N'Jadaka. Shuri now has that with Riri, but positively! Riri also can offer a breath of fresh air every now and again, fulfilling the chemistry she had (bubbly, plucky younger one) with T'Challa (the more composed, older, responsible one).
Whether you want to mold and configure this into a romantic dynamic, is up to you. The point is that yes they relate, yes they do have chemistry, but no, Riri and Shuri aren't equals.
Peter Parker
Hypothetically, Peter relates to Shuri in their intelligence (although I'd argue Shuri is smarter, Shuri's probably smarter than everyone), but that doesn't at all suggest they'd have the same interests. It doesn't work like that.
Peter (2001 baby) is younger than Shuri (1997-1998). He is just starting college. Shuri is around 22, 23 years old due to the snap. She was 19, 20 in Infinity War. Peter was 16. It's not a big age gap, but I wouldn't say they're peers. Age proximity doesn't indicate relatability either, especially if the maturity levels and experiences differ.
However, I will say, I think Peter and Shuri can relate to being orphans that do feel lonely (although Shuri lost and later gained family, Peter is left off completely alone), going through personal dark arcs, and suffering immense pain that changes the trajectory of their lives. They used to be more lighthearted, but now were forced to grow up and their perspectives darkened.
That's about it though. They aren't on the same wavelength or of the same caliber when it comes to their types of threats, challenges, and predicaments. Namor could entirely relate with her being another nation of vibranium of a culture the other nations seek to destabilize, destroy, or conquer, as well as someone with a similar depth and sense of grief. Riri could relate as a black woman living in America (lost tribe) who'd know a thing or two about persecution and was thrown into the mix between the Talokan-Wakanda conflict. Peter?
This isn't factoring in their standings either, with Shuri being an heir apparent and leader of the strongest nation on the surface with Peter being "your friendly (and now depressed) neighborhood Spiderman" that occasionally gets thrown outside his payroll.
Peter and Shuri can probably relate and it's easy to assume they'd have chemistry and may do a little chemistry together. But they do not equal either.
In Conclusion
Yes, ship and let ship. These are all great fictional characters with compelling dynamics. Shipping is largely for fun and often depends on the person's taste.
Looking at this from a perspective of a writer and storyteller, there's no such thing as it "not" working or "making sense" unless you have, excuse my language, shit and uninspiring writing.
I don't normally wade into this type of thing, (in fact Tumblr recommended this post to me like a dozen times before I finally read it) but I have to say, I love a well written argument, that cites sources to support said argument, especially outside of the original media in question. And doubly so when the cited supporting sources are direct quotes from the creators and architects of said media in question. It speaks to intention vs execution.
Shipping is not important. At all.
Well intentioned, well executed character and story is very important. Imperfect media is usually the result, despite intention, because there is no such thing as perfection. But here I find the intention closely matches the execution and the resultant film is, IMO, near-perfect. And that's a testament to Coogler and the skilled creators/artisans he had help him build this world and shape these characters with very specific intention. When people argue about things like "shipping" it seems to me that they often forgo a good faith argument based on something you can reasonably prove, and just go with feelings and perceptions. Which is fine. But let's call a thing a thing.
From this argument, made with supporting evidence cited from such credible sources of information, one thing makes a little more sense than several others. And I feel it's important to acknowledge that.
Sorry, had to nerd out all over this post. This is just a good argument.
Re: Namor x Shuri working from a storytelling standpoint
I stumbled on a post trying to give an analysis of how Namor and Shuri "don't work" from a storytelling standpoint. After reading several of the objectionable points made and realizing I've seen them all before, I felt like trying my own hand to exemplify why these kinds of criticisms against "Nashuri" don't actually work. I didn't directly reblog to avoid being convoluted or dogpiling, but I'll be responding to specific points throughout.
Direct quotes are in orange
Linked sources and further information are in green
Warning: This article has many layers, musings, and points. After all, it's essentially a master collection of material. If you just want to jump to a certain point, you can. There are subtitles for every point.
The Oxymoron of Improbable and "Non-Sensical" Story Writing
In the context of specifically Wakanda Forever's story and nothing else, yes: as of now, Namor and Shuri being a romantic couple does not make "sense."
However, there is no such thing as a ship that doesn't make sense from a story-writing perspective.
With your pen, reality can be shaped according to your whim, or elements can be bent to fit the mold of a given reality. Story-writing-wise, anything can happen, and anything can work with the proper execution. A good writer knows how to suspend the reader's disbelief and make the seemingly improbable, seem probable.
Namor and Shuri already have the ingredients for chemistry and compatibility as characters, which are the two essential requirements in relationships. The media they're in gives you the room to potentially address their circumstance, like reviving Ramonda (coming back to life is no foreign concept to Marvel) or building off of the concepts already there (e.g., the Ancestral Plane or "dead not meaning gone"). There are also AUs.
Saying otherwise is simply putting a cap on your creativity and demonstrates a sheer lack of imagination.
Why Do People Ship Namor And Shuri?
To answer this question, Namor and Shuri:
Have undeniably strong chemistry. That was the first thing that had people question what their relationship would be. You don't have to register this as inherently romantic, but they have chemistry nevertheless.
Deeply connected with and paralleled-equaled one another. Shuri opened up to only Namor about her true grief. With Ramonda, Shuri closed herself off. When her mask cracked, she lamented that if she sat and merely thought of T'Challa, she'd burn the world and everyone in it. The ancestral plane, tethered to her subconscious and emotional state, lit up on fire the moment N'Jadaka mentioned T'Challa. Yet... Shuri felt that she could be emotionally vulnerable to Namor, seeking solace and answers within him. She could not only think of but also talk about T'Challa with Namor. This is after Namor was, in exchange, completely vulnerable and honest to her, showing her his scars and his cherished nation. Both characters did things they wouldn't do with anyone else. They felt seen and heard by the other. That is a beautiful testament to the bond they were forging before uh, yeah.
Shuri was healing in Talokan. It is directly said in the script Shuri was better than she was before she left, but the movie let it be a "show, don't tell." We already established she was finally unveiling her grief to Namor, but Talokan was also an escape for her. Her behavior and attitude were a sheer contrast to how she was earlier in the movie. Shuri was shown beaming, marveling at, and practically glowing as Namor showed her his world. Approximately, she genuinely smiled 11 times in under 3 minutes. She forgot her worries. The tension rolled off of her and let herself go "with the breeze". Her admiration and sense of wonder made him smile too. She was taken care of, a shame that her reason of stay wasn't preferable.
Shared several purposefully intimate moments.
Look hot and are hot together. Argue with a wall.
Can be the strongest, most unstoppable MCU power couple to date.
Create a rich, ethnic, and main poc ship and representation between a black African woman and a brown-skinned indigenous man. That's not common at all, and the thought of their cultures being connected, becoming one through their union is hair-twirling inducing. The idea of them creating a new era filled to the brim with their respective cultures and identities together, with them learning from one another, is very interesting.
They have many, many classic romantic-fantastical tropes poured into the batter that is their dynamic. You may have heard the comparisons to Beauty and The Beast (say thank you, Riri!), Aladdin ("I Can Show You The World"), Peter Pan and Wendy (Namor is deemed of a "Peter Pan" archetype. "Peter Pan" lost his Wendy, who is Shuri in this case. See Inframundo.) and Hades-Persephone.
The only reason why they're on opposite ends is due to outer forces and unfavorable circumstances at work. There's something interesting about their nuanced tragedy. There's a fun intrigue to find a way to "fix" what seems broken beyond repair, through understanding, love, character development, and healing.
Have a romantic anthem: Con La Brisa is a tender love song specifically created based on the underwater scene between Namor and Shuri. Foudequesh revealed that the meaning of the song was showing someone the sun for the first time.
Additionally, Namor and Shuri having romantic chemistry is not baseless. It was initially toyed with. Though they decided to characterize their relationship a bit differently and focus on grief-shared trauma, elements were still left in to give their relationship complexity. The way they relate and the things they did gave romantic undertones you can't just pluck out. Micheal P. Shawver, a colleague of Ryan Coogler and an editor of Wakanda Forever, said this much when asked about the possibility of Namor and Shuri having romance in their cards.
Note how Ryan Coogler, a writer and director of both Black Panther, even apparently thinks that Namor and Shuri are not unsuited for one another even then.
You can also view the original script where Namor is described as "charmed" and "smitten" with Shuri. It's only natural people pick up the pieces purposefully left behind.
Clarification Notes
Before we jump into this, there are things you need to know.
Note 1: None of this is bashing or permission to bash Ramonda, Riri, Shuri, or Nakia. They were justified and operating under grief and dramatic irony if you look at it from every perspective. Currently, this is just clearing up Namor and Talokan's perspectives because that is what's being targetted and unceremoniously characterized, but everyone has a case for them.
Note 2: This doesn't mean you need to ship Shuri and Namor. It's explaining why some do and clearing up misconceptions about their dynamic as well as individual characters. Your takeaway should be this and valueable information on Black Panther, not a decree of what you should or shouldn't ship.
Positive and Negative Chemistry
"Positive" and "negative" chemistry is confusing terminology at best and doesn't exist at worse. It's either you have or lack chemistry. There are also two different kinds of chemistry: platonic and romantic.
When describing how characters wouldn't be compatible in a given relationship, you may be looking for the term, "compatibility".
Chemistry: magnetism, attraction, and natural connection. Compatibility: a more "logical" component: your degree of harmony and cohesiveness.
You can have chemistry without compatibility, and compatibility without chemistry. Healthy and long-lasting relationships have both.
Namor's view of Shuri
Namor does not view Shuri as an equal, despite their similarities.
Pause. Namor does view Shuri as an equal. Shuri is arguably the person he respects the most.
The idea That Namor-Talokan does not relate, respect, connect with, or even view Shuri-Wakanda as human directly goes against the meta-pillar theme of Wakanda Forever.
You said it yourself:
"these are fictional characters (who represent real-world dynamics)"
“We talked to so many experts and really made relationships with them, because there was a lot to go through,” says Beachler. “There are a lot of parallels between Africans and Latin Americans as far as the colonization of their communities and cities, the enslavement of their people, the lies that were told about their culture, the misinterpretation of their words, and the ways they were made out to look demonized in order to elevate a European country.”
Besides honoring Chadwick Boseman, motherhood, and the dead not being gone, grief, trauma, the effects of colonialism, and the connectivity between African-Mesoamerican indigenous culture are central points of the film. Namor and Shuri and by extension Talokan and Wakanda are explicitly supposed to relate and be equal to one another for this reason. You are supposed to struggle with choosing a side, and Namor is a complex antagonist or even anti-hero rather than an actual villain (An antagonist just opposes or challenges the protagonist in the context of the story, they're not inherently good or evil. Villians are inherently evil and with malice.) Their fight is supposed to feel wrong, intimate, and emotionally charged, unlike most generic action hero fights. They are natural allies, and therefore unnatural enemies.
Namor bent in ways he wouldn't have with anyone else.
This is why it's an in-fandom joke that he was whipped or smitten. What he says on his throne when waging "war", was "Máansa'ab u nej miis tin wich." Josué Maychi confirms that this means, "They passed the cat's tail in front of my face with the hope of an alliance."
"If you see cats, jaguars or panthers when they go hunting they wag their tails because it is a way of hypnotizing the prey, then that image is what happened to Namor, that someone did like that with the tail."
Namor virtually said he was hypnotized, but the Spanish and English translations didn't quite convey that cat-involved metaphor (although keeping the crux of his lament.).
Namor could have killed Riri the moment she touched Talokan grounds, but he showed temporary "mercy" because of Shuri and Shuri alone. He didn't need Shuri's permission nor did he have to communicate with Shuri. Riri was in his domain, Shuri did not really have much power there, yet he treated her as if she did.
"It goes back to the point of him never seeing Shuri as human or recognizing her feelings as valid."
Two of Namor's quotes in the movie alone prove this wrong:
"I know you wanted me to spare the life of the scientist (recognizing and acknowledging what she wants), but now you see what I have to protect."
"So you can understand why I need to kill the scientist."
He didn't need to seek her approval or give her the ability to negotiate with him, yet he did and on top of that dressed her in the finest silks fit for royalty, consistently trying to convince Shuri like her opinion mattered, and that he wanted her on his side. It wasn't that he didn't "recognize her feelings as valid," he just felt that, based on how many of their lives are at stake, he couldn't risk it (Movie quote: "I cannot risk that, princess...").
He was absolutely gobsmacked when she said, "Take me instead." He wouldn't speak then, uncharacteristically breaking eye contact. When he could finally speak, he couldn't answer her directly, his voice awkwardly raised an interval and suddenly, unnecessarily, speaking with his hands.
Shuri wanted to see Talokan, and Namor, the pessimistic isolationist who never let a surfacer step foot in Talokan, immediately caved into her desire. There was no reason for him to do that and it demonstrates an immense level of trust. He also, quite literally, showed her the keys to his kingdom. He waited until she was beside him, looked to see if she was watching him, and then did his hand sign in the rock to open the "doors" to Talokan.
As writer Joe Cole said in The Movie Report panel interview, Shuri demands him to make the right choice that was yielding, and he does yield to her, which wasn't something he'd ever consider in his hundreds of years of being alive.
Namor gives his beloved mother's bracelet to Shuri
Fen was Namor's beloved mother. Her memory is something he held dear to him. The bracelet he gave not only was the last piece of her left with him, but it directly signified his birthright as king, was a priceless national object, and was made with their sacred plant's fibers.
He gives it to Shuri twice. One immediately to hold when he sees she's attracted to it, two he ties on her (after receiving her non-verbal permission, another sign of respect) for her keeping as a "gift of gratitude."
Namor saw his mother in Shuri
Namor saw his mother in her highest state, induced by Shuri. She was unchanged, young, and in their homes, outstretching a hand to him as Shuri metaphorically did.
Namor paints the mural of their fight
in his personal hut no less, where he preserves their history and culture. He paints them entangled in a battle with neither side besting the other. She is the Jaguar-Black Panther, a revered, highly respected animal in Maya culture with connections to godhood, and he is a mere human, humbling himself in a sense. That speaks volumes, and it's furthered when he tells Namora that Shuri had every single reason to kill him. He also speaks very highly of her, stating she's the strongest person on the surface, of the strongest nation.
None of this makes sense AT ALL if he supposedly did not view Shuri as a respected equal, let alone "human." If he somehow doesn't see her as a "human", then he sees her as higher than.
Talokan's "Violence" to Wakanda's "Pacifism"
"Namor and the Talokanil, immediately resort to violence and war when they feel a threat from the surface world. But since no one knows they exist, this threat is hypothetical for now."
This is not true. Talokan has constantly been evasive with relocating being their immediate resort. In the film, Namor says, "Talokan will not move, again" for a reason. They didn't "feel" a threat, there was a threat. People found the Vibranium within their domain and were drilling to seize it. War was a later development after Shuri took killing Riri off the table, which is what Namor initially wanted to do (in the script, this is furthered, with him saying he'd prefer picking off one person to outright war.).
"A direct contrast to Ramonda and Shuri, who in the face of real eminent threats, resorted to peace and showed their aggressors mercy."
Ignoring the insinuation that Namor was not faced with real eminent threats when he was, there is a reason for that contrast. Remember that while Wakanda was being threatened, they have never been conquered or forced to move. They're confirmed less vulnerable than Talokan, who does not have shields and lives in the ocean. They can afford to reveal themselves. Talokan cannot, and they're collateral damage to Wakanda's choice of revealing themselves and the power of Vibranium to the world.
The beginning village of Talokan has been conquered and mass murdered before the rebirth into the blue people we see now, with their ancestral lands plundered and made into slave houses. Namor almost died and was sick in the womb because the conquistadors brought smallpox. His father who he never met died due to their disease. He witnessed countless treacheries, betrayals, and wars from the surface lands. Namor spent his entire childhood watching his mother grieve due to them. As a result, Talokan has a more pessimistic perspective compared to Wakanda's privileged optimistic one.
So yeah, Talokan isn't going to play patty cake with their active aggressors who are trying to plunder them. Nor should they, because Namor is proven right with America actively seeking to destabilize Wakanda under the guise of retrieving Riri (see the meeting Ross has with government officials), and the ending with Val.
Wakanda wants to delay inevitable war and minimize the loss across the board but will go to war if pushed, which is fair. Talokan is tired and ready to give the smoke, striking fast and hard to merely end what threatens them once and for all after centuries of patience and displacement. That is also fair.
"Namor, despite wanting Wakanda’s help with his mission, ultimately doesn’t view Wakanda with anymore sympathy than he does the rest of the world. He has made it clear that he hates the surface world and everyone in it, which includes the Wakandans."
You're right, he doesn't sympathize with Wakanda. There's nothing to sympathize with. He empathizes with them, a stronger feeling and sense of connection than sympathy. He admires Wakanda and feels a sense of kinship, maybe a bit of jealousy (Joe Cole). To him, Wakanda was a threat if they weren't on his side. Why?
A) Wakanda (unintentionally) compromised them by revealing themselves to the world and the power of Vibranium. Now everyone else, armed with that dangerous knowledge, is looking for it to wield it. Wakanda can more or less protect their Vibranium, claiming ownership of it when it's on their lands, they have the power to, and they're the ones who revealed it. But what can Talokan do? They'd be forcefully revealed in some way and be subjected to attacks just because they dared to also have Vibranium.
B) Wakanda is compromising them again by harboring Riri, who is the one source capable of the machine the FBI is currently chasing down. There is no guarantee Riri would stay with them (Riri is not their citizen, and America can easily use her as a means to undercut Wakanda and force them to either give vibranium or fork Riri over, so she can build the machine, and they'll get vibranium anyway through Talokan) or wouldn't rebuild her machine. The solutions Namor could fathom were either taking Riri out of the equation for sure (a case of killing one person and saving everyone else) or taking out the threat of those who seek to exploit her.
C) Wakanda was already shaking hands with nations that wanted to destabilize and plunder them, and will want to do the same with Talokan.
D) Wakanda is the only nation that can rival them that now also knows of their existence. If they're not allies with that information, that's dangerous and makes Talokan vulnerable.
With all things considered and understandably from Namor's perspective, there's no "in-between" here. You can't be "neutral." You either are with them or facilitate your own and their destruction.
This doesn't mean he hates Wakanda or Shuri. It is nothing he wants, but something he perceives he has to do for his people, as their protector, father, god, and king. In the script, this is only further exemplified, by his, "I don’t want it to come to this. But I will not hesitate."
Namor Killing Ramonda
His line of "You are queen now" showed that he was never willing to conduct business with Ramonda likely because she was the only person on the surface world who bested him when she lured him out of Talokan(...). He was simply looking for an excuse to get her out of the picture."
At that point, Ramonda threatened to reveal Talokan. Ramonda purposefully played decoy with him and sent in a war dog to infiltrate their nation and retrieve not only their national threat but the princess who has all of their secrets without a sense of closure. The result of this act was the death of two of his "children". Did you just gloss over that fact, because Ramonda didn't just "lure" him away? He wasn't throwing a fit because he was bested. People literally died? He was cradling a dying child in his arms?
Namor was "willing" to conduct business with Ramonda, proven by the simple fact that he approached Ramonda and gave her the shell to contact him. Namor went out to answer Ramonda's call in the first place when he could've just ignored it when he had what he wanted and more in Talokan.
Namor saying "You're queen now" doesn't at all connect to him not seeing Shuri as an equal. That doesn't make any sense. If anything that undermines your point, because before Shuri is officially crowned, he immediately sees her as the sovereign leader, much like himself.
He says "you're queen now" because Shuri is likely the queen now. It's simple math: Shuri is the heir apparent. There's no royal before her now that is leading.
"It's also another reason why he killed Ramonda with no hesitation despite knowing what he knew about Shuri"
Again, Namor did what he did with no hesitation or care if Ramonda is collateral damage because in his eyes, Ramonda betrayed him, he was acting as a vehicle of vengeance for two souls, and he was defending Talokan. When she stepped in front of Riri glaring him down, that was his final nail in the coffin (no pun intended, please, no pun intended.). It was never personal to him nor did he look at it as him killing Shuri's mom. He was playing the role of a protector and king in conflict with another royal, but of course, it's inherently personal to Shuri because that royal happens to be her mother.
Ryan Coogler confirmed it was not personal for him in the Disney+ movie commentary, Tenoch Huerta says killing the queen was never in his initial plans, and Namor says this himself in the script, explaining he did what he did because the queen "betrayed" him with not only a guard, but a child dying as a result when Shuri was never in danger ("you were safe in my care").
Recklessness With Grief
No, Shuri did not have a better handle on how she externalizes her grief until the final of the movie.
"She recognizes that even though she is angry at T’Challa’s death, the rest of the world doesn’t deserve to feel the extent of her wrath."
That's not at all what she recognized at any point. "It will not be these clothes, I'll burn. It will be the world. And everyone in it."
"Even when Namor does kill her mother, she rightfully directs her anger at him."
At the expense of her people's safety and risk of eternal war. She tells M'Baku straight up that nothing else matters except what she wants, and she wants Namor dead. She threateningly pointed a finger, giving M'Baku no choice and leaving him with the command to help her in her endeavors, even if it meant sending them all to their watery graves.
Nakia: "If you go to war for vengeance, it will not fill the hole left from your loss. It will only grow larger, and it will consume you!"
Shuri: "It already has."
With every blow she landed and exchanged with Namor, we cut back to Wakanda receiving blows and being backed up into a corner.
Namor and Shuri were on collision courses where they were destroying themselves, each other, and their people by not handling their grief properly, being consumed by their vengeance, and committing destructive actions ignited by their pain.
Shuri just later had the strength to break that cycle by recognizing what he said to her back in Talokan ("broken leaders"), their connectivity, and shared traumas. She saved them both and quietened Namor's own flames in the process.
"Sure, she has some outbursts at Nakia and M’baku, but she never really alienates them."
Do not downplay the fact that Shuri is dangerous and was not healthily dealing with her grief, but instead was on a path of destruction. Ryan explicitly states that Namor shares this with Shuri: they're both trying to process and similarly struggle grappling with their grief.
Why else do you think Ramonda took Shuri outside to touch grass and do a ritual? Shuri was not ok. From the moment her beloved brother died, she was not ok. She was not magnanimous to the world. She was angry at it. She thought that there was no point in the Black Panther mantle or herb when T'Challa isn't there. As M'Baku even pointed out, she buried herself in her technology as a coping mechanism, which she ought to stop.
Shuri does alienate Nakia. Not only does she snap several times and harshly shove Nakia off of her after she took the herb, but it's also shown at the beginning of the movie she's ignoring all of her calls. In the script, she explicitly considers Nakia dead, immensely angry she missed T'Challa's funeral.
She doesn't listen to M'baku, but consistently tries to push him and his wisdom away during Ramonda's funeral. She even pushed away and tried closing herself off with Ramonda in the lab and river scene.
Namor's Desire
"All he wanted to do was push her to the extremes of grief so she would become reckless as she was."
Namor's true desire was safety for his people. He didn't want to move again or have to change who they are to survive. Namor later had a genuine desire for an alliance with Wakanda, a nation he canonically admires. Namor didn't want to "push her to the extremes of grief to become like him" because she already was like him. He just wanted to channel their shared feelings of reaping "destruction" to the common enemy.
“I think that a lot of the emotion that I was trying to put into it [Talokan] was this idea that Namor is not wanting to move his people again,” says Beachler. “So there is also, this sense of grieving, even there, of this idea of being encroached upon by humans, who are somewhat inconsiderate of them.”
"Instead you see a mutant emerging not out of genetics, but out of the crucible of oppression. Whereas mutants in the comics are born, in Wakanda Forever, they are made. And that history isn't the side story, it's the entire story. It explains Namor's rage, his desperation, and the path he takes which eventually leads to a collision with Wakanda."
It was never a case of Namor only loving and can love his people while hating everyone else, seeing them as inhuman. Namor was prioritizing what he loved the most above what he may also like, admire, or empathize with. He was fulfilling the role given to him he was forced to take from the moment he was born.
"I mean, “no love” is literally his name."
Let's slow down a bit and mayhaps rethink a little on using the meaning of his alias "Namor" as a point about him being loveless, no? That was a "name" given to him by a racist, slave-owning Conquistador priest who also called him, "son of satan" all the while he was burying his mother, the only and last immediate family he had. Namor took that alias to empower himself and take away the sting. He clearly does have love when all of his life he has been a selfless agent for his people. He thought a single or two lives were worth war over. Yes, he explicitly said it was to convey he had "no love" for the surface, but there is context to that.
"Wanting to destroy the whole world, funny enough, including other Mayan descendants who were enslaved or colonized"
When Namor burned down the Hacienda, slaves ran free. Only the Consquisdators were killed. The village elder relayed that they know of Namor's existence and were able to live with that knowledge. The only ones who died were the ones who sought him out with ill intent. The script also featured the factoid of Namor saving the elder and her husband from drowning on their wedding night, if that's worth anything. In the movie, he doesn't want to include Wakanda in the mix of the nations they're at war with either.
Clearly, he is discriminatory with who he'd kill. Who said he'd include Mayan descendants that were enslaved and colonized? The last time I checked, the only person who said anything about burning everyone was Shuri.
Namor: "It is no longer about the scientist. For centuries, the surface nations have conquered and enslaved people like us. Over resources. Since the day I buried my mother, I have prepared my people for the time they would come for us. And that machine? Is the sign that the time is now. I need to know if Wakanda is an ally, or an enemy. There is no in-between."
Shuri: "So you plan to wage war on the entire world, and want Wakanda to help you?"
Namor: [leans in and nods slightly]
Shuri: "That's madness!"
Namor: "There isn't a nation that wouldn't plunder Wakanda if given a chance. If we make an alliance, we can protect each other by striking them first. Then, when the threat of these nations have been eliminated, the scientist will be returned to Wakanda."
Namor wanting to remove the teeth from the lion's mouth and hitting first isn't the same thing as destroying everything and anything. Mind you, he is being chaotic, but he clearly has a concentrated target. Don't get it twisted.
Namor's Regret
It is suggested that Namor in particular felt regret and dislike for the situation in interviews, script, and in-film.
A) Namor is seen pensively on his throne, touching and cradling the shell phone as he awaits contact.
B) Namor's, "It could've been different."
C) Interestingly, Ryan and Joe Cole corroborated in The Movie Report panel interview, more regret was in every blow exchanged. Namor in particular did not want to exchange a fatal blow until he was pushed to impale Shuri on the rock in a desperate attempt to his life.
Equaling and Relating
Relating to someone is different from equalling someone. Out of all who were listed, whether it was Peter Parker, Riri Williams, or Namor, Namor is the only one out of those that is explicitly and purposefully depicted as equalling and relating to Shuri.
Namor And Shuri
The reasoning given for how Shuri works paired with Peter Parker or Riri Williams strongly applies to Shuri with Namor, so operating under the same logic, they largely work too.
"What makes both of these pairings work to a degree is the idea of them being equal in some regard(...) They clearly see each other as equal. They more or less agree on a common enemy and how to deal with said enemy, with morals and values that more or less align."
They do agree on a common enemy. That's literally half of the premise for Namor proposing an alliance where they protect one another. The problem just was how they go about handling things. Tragedy, trauma, and dramatic irony unfavorably played factors.
Otherwise, they're practically the same, and are now on the "same page". Their morals and values aren't far off either. Wakanda and Talokan are eerily similar, whether it be in having spying channels, an isolationistic approach, finding jurisdiction wherever they feel it (aka, if it regards and threatens them), only wanting to protect what they love, embracing-involving their culture-traditions, being environmentalists, and using defensive-offensive means if provoked by a perceived threat.
In visuals alone, they took great care to portray Shuri and Namor as Parallel Characters.
The "boy without love" and the "child who scoffs at tradition." They do have a few healthy differences (I'll save that for another article), but they are equal and deeply relate.
As said on The Movie Report panel interview, Shuri became the Panther god (the Black Panther is canonically Bast's avatar), while he is the god of his civilization. They're both royals and leaders of their own nations. Said nations are sister nations, both having the power of vibranium and the highest levels of advancement. They are both broken and with a shared trauma etched deep in their hearts. They both have a righteous, divine fire and an acute sense of avenging. They both were haunted by similar grief and pain that pushed them to seek solace in one another.
Namor is described as lonely and with loneliness by Ryan Coogler, and that's exactly how Shuri felt in the beginning as well (see her Interlude), and unfortunately, later in the movie after Ramonda "dies" (but in the end, it's revealed that Ramonda, like T'Challa, is not gone.). They brought innovative technology and a new era of living to their people. They share the same love languages: acts of service and gifts.
There was an entire montage near the end of the film showcasing this.
Riri Williams
Riri Williams relates to Shuri in a sense of being young black women whose intelligence and talents aren't always respected by their elders. They can also relate to their fathers being murdered (if they take a page out of comics for Riri, see Ironheart #9) or the loved ones that taught them what they know being ripped away from them. Maybe they also know about diffusion too as geeks, but it stops there.
Riri, like Peter, is a teenager (19 years old) new to college (the same college Okoye states is the equivalent of a Wakandan elementary school), trying to grapple with her emerging life and school. Shuri is a princess of the most powerful nation and head of Wakandan Technology. She completed the journey of school and became a college assistant at the age of 13. Wakanda Forever was Riri's debut and entry into the game. Wakanda Forever was Shuri, who is already a non-teenaged adult at this point, journeying through her womanhood and immense grief. Shuri is not new to the game, having been in countless wars and accumulated countless experiences Riri has yet to touch.
Throughout the film, Shuri acted as the voice Riri didn't have that Namor would hear, largely due to T'Challa's influence. At the end of the film, Riri invites Shuri to a basketball game. Shuri says no, prioritizing her duties and having a full plate compared to Riri's less uncomplicated, lighthearted one. This alone highlights their differences in placement and mental space.
Big sisters do not "equal" their younger siblings. They guide and protect, having some level of authority and experience over them.
And That's Perfectly By Design
Riri and Shuri are not equals and have noticeable divergences where one cannot ever relate to or feel what the other does. Shuri won't know how Riri feels the need to prove herself as a black woman in a society where black people, black women, are given the shorter end of the stick. Shuri doesn't know anything about how it is for African Americans and law enforcement. Riri won't know the privileges or how it feels like to carry the burdens Shuri does to the extent she does. Riri does not entirely relate to Shuri's grief either. Riri was a fish out of water who constantly wanted to go home despite the beauty and safety in Wakanda. They belong to two different worlds.
It is great that they have these differences because, in the words of Dominque Thorne, they can learn from each other. Their relationship in the film is contextualized as Shuri perceiving Riri as her reflection and then taking on a mentor role. Riri is, in Letitia's words, a reflection of T'Challa's choice. There are several parallels between Riri-Shuri and T'Challa-Shuri. It gives Shuri more of a personal incentive and investment in the outreach program her brother enacted. T'Challa had the connection, learning experience, and realization of the Lost Tribe and their struggles through N'Jadaka. Shuri now has that with Riri, but positively! Riri also can offer a breath of fresh air every now and again, fulfilling the chemistry she had (bubbly, plucky younger one) with T'Challa (the more composed, older, responsible one).
Whether you want to mold and configure this into a romantic dynamic, is up to you. The point is that yes they relate, yes they do have chemistry, but no, Riri and Shuri aren't equals.
Peter Parker
Hypothetically, Peter relates to Shuri in their intelligence (although I'd argue Shuri is smarter, Shuri's probably smarter than everyone), but that doesn't at all suggest they'd have the same interests. It doesn't work like that.
Peter (2001 baby) is younger than Shuri (1997-1998). He is just starting college. Shuri is around 22, 23 years old due to the snap. She was 19, 20 in Infinity War. Peter was 16. It's not a big age gap, but I wouldn't say they're peers. Age proximity doesn't indicate relatability either, especially if the maturity levels and experiences differ.
However, I will say, I think Peter and Shuri can relate to being orphans that do feel lonely (although Shuri lost and later gained family, Peter is left off completely alone), going through personal dark arcs, and suffering immense pain that changes the trajectory of their lives. They used to be more lighthearted, but now were forced to grow up and their perspectives darkened.
That's about it though. They aren't on the same wavelength or of the same caliber when it comes to their types of threats, challenges, and predicaments. Namor could entirely relate with her being another nation of vibranium of a culture the other nations seek to destabilize, destroy, or conquer, as well as someone with a similar depth and sense of grief. Riri could relate as a black woman living in America (lost tribe) who'd know a thing or two about persecution and was thrown into the mix between the Talokan-Wakanda conflict. Peter?
This isn't factoring in their standings either, with Shuri being an heir apparent and leader of the strongest nation on the surface with Peter being "your friendly (and now depressed) neighborhood Spiderman" that occasionally gets thrown outside his payroll.
Peter and Shuri can probably relate and it's easy to assume they'd have chemistry and may do a little chemistry together. But they do not equal either.
In Conclusion
Yes, ship and let ship. These are all great fictional characters with compelling dynamics. Shipping is largely for fun and often depends on the person's taste.
Looking at this from a perspective of a writer and storyteller, there's no such thing as it "not" working or "making sense" unless you have, excuse my language, shit and uninspiring writing.
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