Red's Burrow

A sortinghatchats blog run by a Badger/Snake + Badger and Bird models. Welcome to my burrow!

[reds-burrow]

Most common disconnect between my Badger Secondary Mom and my Bird Secondary Dad: My dad likes to know things for the sake of knowing them. My mom prefers to know things that she can apply to real life and finds other tidbits extraneous.

Another disconnect: My mom prefers to dive into working on projects. My dad likes to research things first to make sure he's using the most efficient method.

Another difference (but not really a disconnect): When my dad tells stories, it's often based on facts he's learned. When my mom tells stories, it's mostly based on her experiences and anecdotes she's heard from others.

[reds-burrow]

If it's not too personal, what's it like being a Badger Primary with social anxiety?

It's not as bad as you might be thinking. Because here's the thing: it's still easy to bond with groups without having to deal with the social anxiety of bonding with individuals, especially with this magical thing we call the internet. All I have to do is lurk on a discord, subreddit, or other discussion forum dedicated to a group. Simply reading that other people care about the same things, share similar goals, and feel the same emotions in the same situations that I do is enough to fulfill my need for community. And offline, it's easy to sign up for a club or class and find a group to bond with. Volunteer work especially is good for this since it's a group with common values and a common goal. Not to mention, there is a sense of security and safety I get from being another face in a like-minded crowd, something that actively soothes my social anxiety.

Does this fully fulfill my social needs? No. I get lonely if I don't interact with my friends or family just like anybody else. But if you're talking specifically about the Badger Primary need for community, I've always found that easy to satisfy.

[reds-burrow]

i get a sense that a lot of heroes think they are villains too tho lol

Agreed, and I would argue that this supports my argument, that kindness is separate from morality. There are many "heroes" who do unkind things for the "greater good." To bring this back to SHC, how we decide who is a hero or a villain is more telling than whether or not kindness is a keystone of our morality system.

[sevilemar]

What about people who do kind things and don't have a morality or greater good attached to it, just a lot of empathy? People who are kind because human interactions feel better that way, not because they try to do the right thing? Do they exist, you think, and who are they if they do?

[reds-burrow]

Interesting thought... This is a bit difficult to answer since Primaries are all about what we consider right or wrong, but I do recognize the thought pattern you're describing. So, first off, yes, these people exist.

My first thought is that this could describe Loyalists, the people who naturally act to help those right in front of them before they get caught up in some abstract right or wrong. But then, of course, if you ask the Loyalist if their acts of kindness was right, I think a vast majority would agree. That's what I mean when I say it's tricky to separate out Primaries from morals.

So, if I'm going to take this question strictly, I'd argue that what you're describing is simply acting on empathy. And if that's the case, then this could describe anyone with high empathy, regardless of sorting. As you've described, acting on empathy feels good to people with high empathy, or conversely, not acting with empathy can infect these people with guilt and regret. (Years after the incident, I still vividly remember walking past a woman who was crying. Yes, I was in a rush, but I wish I had stopped to check on her or offered her a tissue or something. But I didn't. And when I look back on the incident I don't think about how wrong I was so much as I feel a pit in my stomach of regret.) I suppose you could argue Felt Primaries are used to following their feelings, so Felt Primaries with high empathy will naturally want to act on it. Or Constructed Primaries could have it built into their system to act on what makes them feel good. Or, since it feels good, anybody who has self-care somewhere in their system, whether built in or as an instinct, may find themselves acting on empathy. But again, this all starts edging back into "doing what's right" territory...

[reds-burrow]

I've actually been in a situation recently where my Mom expressed a differing opinion about someone online. It just felt like she were assuming alot based off what little she knew about this person online. I tried to cut holes in her assumptions but was dismissed. I couldn't let it go because I kept thinking how the same assumptions that she made about this person could be used against her. I thought of several examples both in real life and in the media where someone similar to the person online proved the assumptions wrong. Plus the media examples were from movies that SHE frequently watched. I just couldn't fathom why my Mom couldn't seem to have any empathy towards this person who in a lot of ways is similar to her. It bothered me a lot and I HAD to come back to make at least try to make her see what I saw.

Based off this story and nothing else, I'm going to guess you have some Bird in your Primary. The assumption that you could change your mom's mind with logical evidence and the great discomfort with the obvious (to you at least) hypocrisy look like a Bird to me.

Also, the fact that you were able to come up with a list of examples to present to her sounds like a Built Secondary, but then again you could simply have a good memory for these types of things. What would be more telling would be how you presented your argument and how you dealt with things if she started arguing back.

[reds-burrow]

I just want to express gratitude to you for how you handled your latest ask. The question of what our real self is, the version of us that we are when we are in crisis or the version of us when we are at our best is what I've been thinking about for years. And it caused me real harm. Let me explain. I belong to a 'tough' country where you are constantly probed for stress resistance, any personality trait is only considered 'yours' if you don't allow it to be changed by anxiety/stress/fear at all. People will say things like 'Yeah no, if you were logical/smart/ you'd perfectly logical during a *insert stressful situation here*. But the thing is, everyone is irrational during stress, it's human nature. Also, the factors of stress are often decided not by personality but by our role in society. That's why women/disabled people/minorities are considered overemotional - there are just more stress factors in their environment but more privileged people don't see them and dismiss them as 'emotion'. And it brought real harm to my understanding of self and other people too. Think of it that way - when all trees stand with cut branches, you no longer can tall the differences between trees. So don't type yourself by negatives - stress, depression and etc. Type yourself by what you do best. It's actually more logical too because the world only cares about you bring to the table, not living up to some kind of ideal. We all are cogs, in a good sense of word. A cog is defined by its function, not malfunction. And even if it's malfunction you should be determined what it is for and it's important for the whole mechanism.

(This is in response to this post.)

Thanks for sharing your take on this! You make some very good points.

In fact, you've reminded me of a conversation I recently had with someone who I had guided through the sorting process. They were having a very Burnt Secondary day, the type of day where they would say they don't feel like they have any function, a cog without spokes to follow your metaphor. They were trying to ask if I was sure that they were a Badger Secondary and not a Snake because of all the shortcuts they had been taking in their schoolwork, so I had to remind them that they were using up all their energy fighting their depression. Of course, they didn't have energy to do the hard work that they usually would have wanted to do. I pointed to what they did on good days and the activities they do for fun or for relaxation. And then I pointed to their regrets, to the way all these shortcuts stressed them out. It was understandable that they didn't feel like they were living up to a Badger Secondary, but when they're feeling healthy, it's clear that that is what they use.

Idioms that claim you see people's true natures when they're cornered have always sat wrong with me. The truth is, when you corner someone, all you get is cornered behavior. That is never the whole picture of who someone is.

[reds-burrow]

i get a sense that a lot of heroes think they are villains too tho lol

Agreed, and I would argue that this supports my argument, that kindness is separate from morality. There are many "heroes" who do unkind things for the "greater good." To bring this back to SHC, how we decide who is a hero or a villain is more telling than whether or not kindness is a keystone of our morality system.

[reds-burrow]

I'm 90% sure I'm a Bird Secondary, except that I'm sort of a panicky person and sometimes I have moments whenn I can't think and act on my gut instead. Would this be a Lion Secondary model? Or maybe the Bird is the model?

Oh, no! Please don't sort yourself based on what happens when you're being controlled by emotion! Unless you're getting a feeling of security from these moments, like listening to your gut is your back up to your Bird, I wouldn't even count it as a part of your sorting. What people do when they're panicked, angry, afraid, or desperate only tells you how they act when emotion is the one in the driver's seat. You might be able to identify someone's Primary in this state (people usually make moves to protect or fight for what they value most when pressured), but this is not helpful in revealing Secondaries. I'd argue tdesperate people will look like Burnt Secondaries, trying anything and everything they can to get out of that situation, even if that burning doesn't last once the pressure lifts.

From the sound of it, your panic is typically Lion flavored, but ask yourself: is that panic you? Wouldn't you rather sort yourself based on what you do when you are feeling healthy and safe? It's up to you, ultimately, but as someone who struggles with anxiety, I personally don't consider my anxiety-induced reactions to be the true core of who I am. Instead, I look to what brings me out of that anxiety, back to a healthier headspace. For me, it's usually practicing something stressful beforehand (Badger) or it's looking around and realizing I can adapt to my situation, no matter how bad it gets (Snake). For you, it may be collecting knowledge or tools to help you face something you know will put you in a panic (Bird), or it very well could be trusting your gut and pushing through whatever is stressing you out (Lion). Either way, only you can answer which Secondary gives you comfort and security when things get rough.

[reds-burrow]

it's interesting that you think of badger as "dog" and snake as "cat", because to me, my snake loyalty to my people manifests itself as very dog-like loyalty. I'm not disagreeing with you, I genuinely think it's interesting!

(This ask is in response to this post.)

Is there a difference in loyalty? I guess cats are generally more independent and subtle in their attachment than dogs. But as far as actual loyalty and devotion, perhaps I’ve simply met different cats than you, but once they devote themselves to someone, I’ve seen cats be as intensely loyal as dogs (and science supports this). When I said Dog and Cat are good alternatives for Badger and Snake respectively, I wasn’t talking about just loyalty, but other behaviors. My apologies for the confusion; I never fully explained my thoughts.

The first part of it has to do with how dogs live in packs, while cats do not. In a sense, dogs are naturally community minded. So, like how the well-being of the community comes before personal wants for Badgers, most dogs can learn to take commands and do what their humans expect from them even if they'd rather jump on the dinner table and eat everything. Cats, however, will do what pleases them before they’ll listen to their human, like how Snakes will prioritize their personal wants. Oftentimes those wants are to take care of their people, just as you can have incredibly friendly, cuddly cats. But it's difficult to get a healthy Snake or a cat to do something that they don't want to without an alternative incentive.

There’s also the fact that many cats are pickier about who they get close to, which I see as reflective of Snake Primaries and their vetting process. You have to earn a cat’s affection, just as you do with Snake Primaries. There’s a reason being chosen by a cat feels similar to being chosen by a Snake. On the other hand, for Badgers, there is already a base sense of loyalty to others, even strangers, simply because they are people, which I find is more similar to how dogs latch onto people. A recent study has suggested that the friendliness that dogs exhibit, a key part of their domestication, came from a similar genetic mutation as what causes Williams syndrome in humans, a disease that (to oversimplify) causes people to look at everyone as a friend. Meanwhile, cats domesticated themselves because they recognized that being around humans gave them an advantage: humans store grain, grain attracts rodents, and rodents make a good meal.

And… It’s not what your ask is about, but if you'll indulge me, I'd like to explain my thoughts on the Secondaries. Yes, Snake and Badger were selected as the HP mascots specifically with the Secondaries in mind, but I think I can make a decent argument for Cat and Dog.

Dogs are pack hunters and display alloparenting. That means they work together, specifically that they invest in each other, taking care of each other’s pups and sharing food resources. I’d argue this is similar to how Badger Secondaries invest in people. Also, most dogs exhibit joy in being given a job to do. Their hard work can vary from actual jobs (service dogs, search and rescue, livestock guardian, etc.) to performing the tricks their humans ask of them.

Cats, however, will do what is easiest to get what they want. A study showed that when given the choice between performing a task to get a treat and simply taking the treat, cats chose the latter. This might sound like the obvious choice, but many animals, including canines, prefer performing a task to get their food, a behavior called contrafeeloading. But cats? They are happy to freeload, even if they’re active and intelligent enough to solve the presented food puzzle.

Then there’s the fact that both cats and dogs have shaped their behavior to better communicate with humans. For dogs, these are mainly instinctual behaviors or literal changes to their form, built into their species over thousands of years, like understanding human pointing from birth and evolving expressive eyebrows to better communicate their feelings to humans. Meanwhile, cats learn to continue meowing past kittenhood, depending on their situation, by reading their humans' reactions. Feral cats don’t meow at the same rate as house cats because adult cats generally communicate through smells instead of sounds. Meowing is something cats developed for humans.

Anyway, I understand if you still consider your loyalty to look more dog-like. Perhaps the subtle affections of cats aren't your style. But I hope you enjoy this alternative way of thinking about things!

[reds-burrow]

I've heard about some badger primaries including animals in their definition of people, but what about snake primaries? I'm questioning snake primary, and this might just be because I grew up having caring about animals drilled into me, and it could just be woven into the moral system I wear on top of my loyalist system, but I care A LOT about animals and I believe my two cats would probably be included in my people.

A dream of mine is to become a kitten foster parent; I know it's a lot of hard work, and that I'd have to not get attached and go through a lot of heartache, but I believe it would be worth it if I can just help some creatures that are suffering. But, Me and mine first is ultimately The thing that matters most, though being attached to cats for personal reasons could be included under "me"; I am incredibly stubborn about things I think I'm right about, which are usually things I have opinions on because they are incredibly personal to me, rather than because I am passionate about specific ideals or causes. Actually, do you think there's a difference between morals and kindness? I don't think helping kittens is a moral thing for me, I think it's more something I want to do just to be kind.

Anyway, I'm rambling but I wanted to know your thoughts, sorry about that. I thought I was a bird primary for several months, but now questioning snake primary and doing a lot of thinking, haha.

Oh, absolutely. A lot of people, no matter their Primary, consider pets and other intelligent animals to be non-human people. There’s a reason people refer to cats and dogs as their “fur babies.” The fact that your cats are included in your people doesn’t surprise me at all.

I am incredibly stubborn about things I think I'm right about, which are usually things I have opinions on because they are incredibly personal to me

Well, you certainly sound like a Snake Primary in this post. As you pointed out, taking care of kittens or being kind could be a part of the morality system you’ve constructed to deal with situations that don’t directly affect your people. But it is entirely possible that the pleasure you get from these kind acts is, in fact, a way of taking care of yourself, which naturally is something a Snake would be attracted to. Never underestimate a Snake's sympathy and how far that sympathy can drive them. In a sense, your sympathy for a kitten's plight does affect someone in your circle: you.

Actually, do you think there's a difference between morals and kindness?

Short answer: yes, morality is subjective. Long answer: kindness can certainly be a part of a moral system, and I’d argue it is a key part of most popular moral systems. But it isn’t a necessary part. As a Badger Primary, my morality is inseparable from kindness towards others, but I recognize not everybody thinks or feels this way. There are plenty of people in the world who lack kindness or are even cruel, but still believe that they do what is “right” and moral. Are you familiar with the phrase “Every villain thinks they are the hero?” It’s the same idea here. In fact, some of these people may be self-aware enough to recognize that they're being mean or cruel but will sacrifice their reputation as a "good person" because they feel that their cruelty is necessary to make things "right."

[reds-burrow]

So I am trying to figure out my primary now (I am that rash Bird primary we talked about before.) I am not only torn between Lion and Snake as my secondaries but also between the possibility of being a burned Bird secondary and an improvisational secondary. I had a difficult life where I had to pretend to survive pretty much instantly and I am not sure whether me pretending is something I like or don't like to do or whether it is a natural part of me or not. Since my 'self' is a Bird, so it is more of a system than a 'person' to be absolutely honest, it is even harder to figure out. So, some questions:

1. What is being authentic like? What is meant when being authentic? For me it's just being relaxed but is there something else? If we are talking about 'speaking honestly' then I am not sure I am speaking honestly. Wait, what is honesty at all? Things change so much in my mind based on reality...

2. Can you be a Lion secondary who doesn't mind lying to get their way? Can you be a Lion secondary who thinks diplomacy is better sometimes but being straightforward is better at other times?

3. Can you be a Snake secondary who does not derive joy from changing? It doesn't make you suffer but you aren't overjoyed either. Thank you

Before I get to your questions and since you bring up the possibility of being a Burnt Secondary, it is important to recognize what this means for your sorting process. Burnt Secondaries tend to latch onto whatever methods they can, meaning they can wind up borrowing from up to all four Secondaries if need be. This can get quickly get confusing, which is why I suggest you concentrate on recognizing what skills make you feel comfortable, safe, or strong. Secondaries that aren't a natural or learned part of you will feel stressful or uncomfortable to use.

Now then, your questions:

(1) Relaxed is a good word for it. I had a theory a little while back that part of what differentiated Lion and Badger Secondaries from Snake and Bird, was that Lions and Badgers largely rely on their subconscious mind to guide them during social interactions, while Birds and Snakes will have the conscious thought of “Oh, they expect/need me to act this way.” So, Lions and Badgers or Neutral Snakes and Neutral Birds are relaxed in the sense that they don’t have to consciously think about adjusting how they present themselves in social interactions.

(A quick note: I realize you’re getting the term “authentic” from some of the earlier writing on SHC, but as Snakes and Birds explain it, they’re still being themselves. It’s simply a different piece or form of who they are.)

(2) Well, it’s not like Lions don’t understand what tact is. They can adjust according to the social interaction, although it’s been described like a dimmer switch. They can adjust their intensity, but they can’t change into something new on the spot. And yes, Lions can lie when need be (not to be confused with the morality of lying—that’s decided by your Primary), however, Lions tend to find repetitive or long-term lying stressful and uncomfortable. To go back to the idea that Lions are led by their subconscious in social interactions, lying is a skill that requires conscious thought. The liar has to keep track of what the lies are and who knows what in order to not get caught, so intricate or repeated lying will get exhausting for Lions. If it’s a one-off lie, however, like a bit of trolling, that’s more comfortable for Lions, especially if they know the truth will quickly be revealed.

(3) It’s possible, yes. Snakes generally change because it’s the easiest way to get what they need out of a social interaction. Sometimes it’s protection from the other person, sometimes it’s a need that the other person can fulfill. Occasionally, that need can be joy-inducing. Otherwise, I’ve heard Snakes describe their changing as something that makes them feel secure or strong.

Even though my social skills are largely Badger based, when I change, it’s just… something I do. I don’t get much emotionally from the act itself, only from the reaction I get out of the people I shape myself to. I suspect it’s much the same for Snakes.

[sevilemar]

My two cents:

(1) I am a little bit undecided about how much of my social interactions are conscious or subconscious. Yes, I have thoughts mid-conversation that go like: 'don't talk, just wait them out, they need to get this out on their own' or 'ah, you need to rant now, got it' or 'which direction to go, earnest and heartfelt, or friendly teasing? Ok, friendly teasing it is.' or 'unfold your arms and turn to them more, you want to look friendly', or 'you need to nip this in the butt or he will ruin it for the whole group', or 'uh oh, that earnest tone fell flat, try being more jovial next time'. It's not as verbal as that, but that's what I would translate it to.

Things like that are very conscious. I looked into autistic masking for a while, because what they described resonated a lot with how I do things, but from what I understand it's quite different.

But there are also a lot of times where I fly on instinct and just react. I never consciously choose to be kind or polite, because especially at work, that's my first reaction anyway, which sometimes causes problems. I'm not usually very authoritative or jovial, but I found myself being both just two days ago when my group tried to talk me into giving them leeway on something that needed a hard no. I don't consider myself dramatic or funny, but sometimes I find myself being both with friends or colleagues. I thoroughly surprised myself with how rude I was to a colleague yesterday, now that I have more financial freedom.

Both approaches can lead to successful conversations and moments I'll remember fondly, but the success rate when it just happens is a lot higher. It feels easier, less like work. Some instances of the subconscious reactions might be neutral, but not all, while I'm very unsure if the conscious thing can happen in neutral or not. I don't consider it shifting when I give my friends space to rant, or try and figure out if they need a sympathetic ear or a distraction, but it might be? It's quite confusing, to be honest.

(3) I enjoy the fiction that my snake lets me become whoever I want to be, and whenever I find myself briefly occupying a role I never thought I would (like the cool kid, or the funny guy, or the competent expert), I get pleasure out of the new experience. Otherwise, it's just who I am and what I do. I enjoy it not because it's shifting, but because it works for me, and I'm good at it. It's the pleasure of having honed an ability so you can use it successfully most times.

[reds-burrow]

Thank you for your input!

I'm not at all surprised by your description of how you use a mix of subconscious and conscious thoughts in your interactions. I failed to bring it up here, but for anyone interested, if you click the link to my theory, you'll see I expect Snake Secondaries to use a mix. To be more specific, I expect Snakes to consciously reassess the situation, which is exactly as you describe in that first paragraph. In your third paragraph, it sounds more like your first instinct on how to approach things was working just fine, so you didn't need to reassess in those situations.

[reds-burrow]

Is it very Lion for someone to drop a friend for having the wrong opinion? I remember back in college I was getting to know someone in my dorm and she bluntly told me, "If you don't agree with me on [controversial issue] then we can't be friends" and I was very taken aback and offended. I'm friends with plenty of people who I disagree with on various important issues. We just...talk about other stuff. Unless someone is constantly haranguing me about the topic, I don't see the problem. How would the different primaries handle a major disagreement on important values with a friend or loved one?

To be fair, a lot of this is dependent on what the [controversial issue] is. Yes, it’s more common to see Idealists proclaim something as “right” or “wrong” compared to Loyalists, but Loyalists also have morality issues that they will break a friendship over. Snakes, of course, will care about issues that affect themselves and their people, but there are also some Snakes who fill in their morality system with something they’ve constructed to deal with situations that don’t directly affect their people. So, you can have a Snake who feels strongly about issues that their constructed morality system is based on. For Badgers, any issue involving the safety and well-being of the Badger’s communities could be important enough to the Badger that they will avoid people who disagree. Other Badgers may try to avoid connections with people outside of their chosen tribe, so you’ll see Badgers refuse friendship with people of different religious or cultural beliefs—especially if the Badger’s community has deemed these other beliefs immoral.

That said, I agree that the dormmate you met was most likely a Lion. Lions are the most likely to feel something is “wrong” so strongly that they can announce it like she did. They can’t always tell you why it’s “right” or “wrong,” but they know that it is in their bones. They will leave jobs or end friendships over the gross feeling they get by associating with that “wrong.” Nobody else can change their opinion; only the Lion can do that.

Birds, however, would be open to debating the contentious point instead of giving an ultimatum because encountering a differing opinion is a chance to test the Bird’s system. Maybe the debate will bring up a new point they hadn’t considered, something that may sway them into altering their system or something that will reinforce their earlier judgement, supporting their current system.

For Snakes, it depends on how close you are to them. Since you were still getting to know your dormmate, it’s a possibility that you weren’t yet in her circle and this was a part of her vetting process. If you’re outside a Snake’s circle when a controversial issue like this comes up, the Snake can look a lot like an Idealist, either Lion or Bird depending on how they came to believe in what they do. If the belief is a part of their constructed morality system, they’ll look like a Bird and likely want to debate. If the belief is something that has come from the people in their circle, from the Snake’s internal judgement of “I trust my people. What would they do?,” then the Snake will tend to look more like a Lion.

If you are in the Snake’s circle of people and the Snake thinks you’re “wrong” about an issue, they will either avoid the subject with you, connecting with you in other ways, or they will go through the painful process of reassessing whether you still belong in their circle. A lot of this decision is dependent on how much of a threat they think your beliefs are to their people, a sentiment that is also seen in Badgers. Badgers will also simply avoid the subject and continue the friendship if they feel your beliefs pose a low threat to their communities (including the community of “humanity”). If those “wrong” beliefs pose a high threat, then that’s what you become: a threat.

I think you know what I’m about to say next. That last paragraph should sound very familiar to you because, while I agree there’s a decent chance your dormmate was a Lion Primary, I’d say the better odds here are in guessing that you are a Loyalist. Your ability to overlook differing values and concentrate on the other connections you share with your friends, that is more commonly a Loyalist quality (one you and I share). This should make some sense. Idealists care first and foremost about living according to their felt or chosen values, while Loyalists care first about protecting their connections to other people.

[reds-burrow]

Does it ever feel like you/your sorting are a walking contradiction? Bird Lion here and sometimes I am so very confused about how my houses work together but can’t imagine being any two other ones.

As a Badger/Snake, I 1000% understand this. But then, Birds and Lions are sort of the opposite sides of the same coin in the same way that Badgers and Snakes are. I can only imagine how confusing it can get for you, to trust your gut feelings when it comes to problem-solving, but to rely on conscious thought for your decision-making. I imagine Lion/Birds have some of the same, if opposite, going on.

It’s actually more difficult for me to explain my own confusing dichotomy even though I’m the one experiencing it. I think it has something to do with how my Badger Primary is focused on others, while my Snake Secondary focuses on myself. So, when decision-making, it’s about doing what is best for the group, but when problem solving, it’s about doing what is easiest for me. Sometimes those two things align, and sometimes they don’t. Yet somehow I’m still a functioning human being.

[reds-burrow]

So I am trying to figure out my primary now (I am that rash Bird primary we talked about before.) I am not only torn between Lion and Snake as my secondaries but also between the possibility of being a burned Bird secondary and an improvisational secondary. I had a difficult life where I had to pretend to survive pretty much instantly and I am not sure whether me pretending is something I like or don't like to do or whether it is a natural part of me or not. Since my 'self' is a Bird, so it is more of a system than a 'person' to be absolutely honest, it is even harder to figure out. So, some questions:

1. What is being authentic like? What is meant when being authentic? For me it's just being relaxed but is there something else? If we are talking about 'speaking honestly' then I am not sure I am speaking honestly. Wait, what is honesty at all? Things change so much in my mind based on reality...

2. Can you be a Lion secondary who doesn't mind lying to get their way? Can you be a Lion secondary who thinks diplomacy is better sometimes but being straightforward is better at other times?

3. Can you be a Snake secondary who does not derive joy from changing? It doesn't make you suffer but you aren't overjoyed either. Thank you

Before I get to your questions and since you bring up the possibility of being a Burnt Secondary, it is important to recognize what this means for your sorting process. Burnt Secondaries tend to latch onto whatever methods they can, meaning they can wind up borrowing from up to all four Secondaries if need be. This can get quickly get confusing, which is why I suggest you concentrate on recognizing what skills make you feel comfortable, safe, or strong. Secondaries that aren't a natural or learned part of you will feel stressful or uncomfortable to use.

Now then, your questions:

(1) Relaxed is a good word for it. I had a theory a little while back that part of what differentiated Lion and Badger Secondaries from Snake and Bird, was that Lions and Badgers largely rely on their subconscious mind to guide them during social interactions, while Birds and Snakes will have the conscious thought of “Oh, they expect/need me to act this way.” So, Lions and Badgers or Neutral Snakes and Neutral Birds are relaxed in the sense that they don’t have to consciously think about adjusting how they present themselves in social interactions.

(A quick note: I realize you’re getting the term “authentic” from some of the earlier writing on SHC, but as Snakes and Birds explain it, they’re still being themselves. It’s simply a different piece or form of who they are.)

(2) Well, it’s not like Lions don’t understand what tact is. They can adjust according to the social interaction, although it’s been described like a dimmer switch. They can adjust their intensity, but they can’t change into something new on the spot. And yes, Lions can lie when need be (not to be confused with the morality of lying—that’s decided by your Primary), however, Lions tend to find repetitive or long-term lying stressful and uncomfortable. To go back to the idea that Lions are led by their subconscious in social interactions, lying is a skill that requires conscious thought. The liar has to keep track of what the lies are and who knows what in order to not get caught, so intricate or repeated lying will get exhausting for Lions. If it’s a one-off lie, however, like a bit of trolling, that’s more comfortable for Lions, especially if they know the truth will quickly be revealed.

(3) It’s possible, yes. Snakes generally change because it’s the easiest way to get what they need out of a social interaction. Sometimes it’s protection from the other person, sometimes it’s a need that the other person can fulfill. Occasionally, that need can be joy-inducing. Otherwise, I’ve heard Snakes describe their changing as something that makes them feel secure or strong.

Even though my social skills are largely Badger based, when I change, it’s just… something I do. I don’t get much emotionally from the act itself, only from the reaction I get out of the people I shape myself to. I suspect it’s much the same for Snakes.

[reds-burrow]

would you say snake primaries have more personal traditions instead of the cultural ones that badgers follow?

Keep in mind that Snakes can have very large circles and Badgers can have very small communities. As a Badger Primary, I find myself placing importance in family traditions or even the inside joke between friends that has transformed into a tradition. That inside joke is only shared between three people, but it connects us and that's what's important.

In a similar vein, you can have Snake Primaries who have large circles with hundreds or thousands of people. If I recall correctly, Roy Mustang from Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood is the original example of this, with the entire country of Amestris being a circle his Snake was attached to. In sci-fi (or space operas) you can go even bigger, with Ezra Bridger (Double Snake) from Star Wars: Rebels prioritizing his home planet of Lothal or Kira Nerys (Snake/Lion) prioritizing her home planet of Bajor. Kira is really the only one we see practicing cultural traditions, but I'd be shocked if the other two didn't hold an affinity for their home's cultural traditions too.

[reds-burrow]

Do you have examples of characters whose secondary is so intertwined with their secondary model that they seem to have two secondaries please ?

Well… Technically speaking, if a character has a Secondary model, they have two Secondaries. I know what you’re trying to get at though, and I’m not trying to be pedantic. The unfortunate sticking point of this question is that the answer will always be highly subjective. When people say “my Secondary model feels strong enough to be considered another Secondary,” it’s completely their decision. What matters is what feels comfortable and right for them. But obviously, we can’t ask a character how they feel about their various problem-solving skills, and what may look like a model with the strength of a second Secondary to some people, won’t rise to that strength in other people’s eyes.

Despite all of that, I’d like to give you some sort of answer, so let’s pretend for a second that we can make this slightly less subjective. Let’s say the criteria for identifying a character with a second Secondary is as follows:

The character must have more than one Secondary

The character must use the Secondaries in question a roughly even amount

The character must not abandon the Secondaries in question as the story progresses

As I’m sure you’ve realized, even these criteria are subjective, for people can disagree on how many Secondaries a character has at any point in the story and how evenly the character uses those Secondaries.

But with all that out of the way, to finally try and answer your question, I suggest looking at characters with the Bird and Snake Secondary combo. Writers tend to pair these Secondaries together, blending them in a way that I’d say rises closest to what you’re looking for. A few examples include Loki and Scott Lang from the MCU, Doyle’s Sherlock Holmes, Todd from So Help Me Todd, and Quark from DS9.

[reds-burrow]

Preparing for Lunar New Year has me thinking about traditions, and how Badger Primaries have a reputation for insisting on the importance of such things. Some of it sprouted from the idea that traditions (and rules and laws) have kept the community safe and healthy in the past, so these things need to be preserved so they can continue to do so. Another part of it is centered around the idea of cultural or community identity. Traditions are a shared experience. They are something the Badger can point at and say "See? We all do that. We are all connected." These traditions can range from cultural traditions to personal traditions shared by only a few friends. But it's not just Badgers that do this. Even though it's not talked about as often, Snake Primaries also have a tendency to place great importance in their traditions. And this makes sense: Loyalists are all about connections.

[reds-burrow]

my sister, a Lion Primary: y'know how when you're little, you want to be Special

me, a Badger Primary: sure

sister: and then you grow up and realize you aren't The Hero who is going to vanquish the world's evils--

me, thinking Special meant being someone who could help others no matter what the problem, not being the Chosen One, fighting for the soul of humanity: wait what