#loyalist primary

[mysticalenthusiastvoid]

Is it a charred Idealist primary thing to feel guilty about not meeting certain moral standards about acting in a more Loyalist primary value system?

[misku-nimfa]

I know this is boring but my fantasy is to be able to buy a house on the same cul de sac as our friends and get together with everyone and host parties and just share more of our lives. We're in a small apartment with only 3 dining chairs and a small couch so I almost never have anyone over and I only know one of our neighbors :/

No shame in having a grounded fantasy. I've literally drafted out multiple versions of a dream home and done tax calculations for what I could buy if I suddenly won the lottery. What matters is that this is something that brings you joy.

As for your sorting, I am very tentatively going to say loyalist primary. Because your ask focused on community with your friends it could go either way. All in all a very sweet fantasy.

[reds-burrow]

would you say snake primaries have more personal traditions instead of the cultural ones that badgers follow?

Keep in mind that Snakes can have very large circles and Badgers can have very small communities. As a Badger Primary, I find myself placing importance in family traditions or even the inside joke between friends that has transformed into a tradition. That inside joke is only shared between three people, but it connects us and that's what's important.

In a similar vein, you can have Snake Primaries who have large circles with hundreds or thousands of people. If I recall correctly, Roy Mustang from Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood is the original example of this, with the entire country of Amestris being a circle his Snake was attached to. In sci-fi (or space operas) you can go even bigger, with Ezra Bridger (Double Snake) from Star Wars: Rebels prioritizing his home planet of Lothal or Kira Nerys (Snake/Lion) prioritizing her home planet of Bajor. Kira is really the only one we see practicing cultural traditions, but I'd be shocked if the other two didn't hold an affinity for their home's cultural traditions too.

[sevilemar]

I was wondering if I was an idealist or loyalist house. Loyalists can “pick up” morals from their people right? I was thinking about how, even with my people in my inter circle, I would have to come to my own conclusion on an issue- and it would feel pretty immoral to just take someone’s ideas because you like them. Another note, I would feel like total crap weather I abandoned my closest people or my greater cause. That’s what was tripping me up with idealist vs loyalist. :/ thanks! :)

It's not much to go on, but I get idealist vibes of this. In general, I find that I don't think much about morality in broader terms, and I've never had a cause I would consider mine. There was never any need, it's never been as important as the people around me. Generally speaking, that's more of an idealist thing to be concerned about. Maybe you are a lion with loyalist values, or a bird with a loyalist system. Only you can decide that, nonny.

[sevilemar]

Can you explain more what it's like to bond to groups vs individuals? I value being part of my community a lot but when I think about having to move away, I feel worse about leaving specific people than about leaving the group as a whole or people in the group I don't know well. Does that make me a Snake instead of a Badger or is that normal?

I have never felt like I belong in any group since kindergarten. I am always the odd one, I always stay at the fringes, I hate gossip and inane chatter just to be polite. I just don't care about your day, or your life, or who said what to whom, not really. I do not like parties, and I only do group activities if I am interested in the actual thing we're doing. I would gladly go on an archery trip because I always wanted to try, but I would bail on having a drink after because it's just boring.

But if I think you're interesting, if we get talking and I get to hone in on you, we will probably be talking for a while. It will be intimate and intense, and I can make you forget everything else for a while. It's addictive, at least to me, and I will want to meet you again because this kind of connection makes me feel alive. It's how I made all my friends as an adult: go places where I might meet interesting people (most of the time some group thing with a theme or a friend's birthday party), single them out, and just talk to them all night.

I don't know how much of that is me being snakey and how much is me being an introvert; it might be different for extroverted snakes. I just know that all the courtier badgers I know at work are very connected to the grapevine, they always chat with people about everything and nothing, they are genuinely interested in the minutiae of your life, and they know a lot about everyone because of it. They are organising your team events, they care about your birthday, they remember when your dog is sick or what kind of motivation works best for you. They identify conflicts in the group and know how to solve them, and you always know that you can come to them with legitimate concerns and they will always hear you out.

I don't know how badgers feel when they leave a group. I know that even my double badger colleague has friends among our group, people they would miss a lot more if they changed their job. The fact that you even ask is a good indicator that you are, in fact, a badger and not a snake. Because for me, this wouldn't even be an issue.

[wisteria-lodge]

Hey there! I'm a little confused about the idealist versus loyalist aspect of primaries. I 100% think I'm a loyalist, probably more Snake than Badger, but something still doesn't feel right. It's mostly that one question in the quiz that goes "would you love someone less if you disagreed on something important". I've definitely felt that many times. I don't really give a damn for most things, but questions like queerphobia, racism, etc., that's a major deal breaker. In cases where it felt like they could easily change their minds and it was just about not knowing or an idea being very new to them, it felt a bit disappointing but it didn't affect my love for them, because I felt confident it wouldn't last. But in cases where the Bad Thing felt too engrained in them, I could definitely feel my love for them diminish, even in relationships that were important to me. I would feel bad about it because it feels wrong to let my love for someone go knowingly, but I wouldn't feel bad about it specifically in regards to the person, because those feelings would be gone already, if that makes any sense.

I think that's more an idealist thing, but that's really the only trait I relate to. Prioritizing ideals over individuals still feels incompatible with my worldview. I also have a history of disregarding principles when it comes to people I care about and not feeling bad about it one bit, which is one of the things that strongly pointed me towards Snake. Is this because the example in question is too extreme? Could it be because of a model? This question has been bothering me for a while, but I'm not sure I'm explaining it right. Anyway, I'd appreciate any bit of help you might give. 🙏🏼 Have a good day!

You sound like a Loyalist to me. Probably all that's happened is you've got caught up in using extreme examples. "Would I love my Person less if I realized they were Jack the Ripper." That kind of thing. The problem of using examples like that is ... if the behavior and the beliefs are bad enough that they're affecting other people, that's going to come back around and ping some other part of the Loyalist's system. A Badger primary who realizes the beliefs of one member of the community are hurting another member of the community? Ouch. Or a Snake who realizes that the beliefs of one of their People are hurting another one of their People (or even just hurting their own reputation or social standing?) I had an interesting conversation with a Snake primary, who said that if she realized a good friend of hers was homophobic, she wouldn't *cut them off* but she wouldn't want to be tagged in the same photos as them anymore. And if that person made a long homophobic video, or started donating to homophobic organizations... then continuing to associate with them is going to be way more trouble than it's worth. Sakes are practical, remember, and good at taking care of themselves. Like this bit right here is very loyalist:

In cases where it felt like they could easily change their minds and it was just about not knowing or an idea being very new to them, it felt a bit disappointing but it didn't affect my love for them, because I felt confident it wouldn't last.

Maybe it's cold, but the Idealist perspective (my perspective) is - I'm here if you want to talk, but. Figure yourself out, come back when you've changed your mind.

[sevilemar]

The day I finally understood idealistic primaries

I feel like I need to memorialise today in some fashion, because I finally understand a fundamental truth of idealistic primaries. As a proud double snake who discovered shc only recently, I am still struggling to reframe a lot of things in the new terms. One of my biggest problem was that I did not understand why anyone would choose ideals over people.

Two of my friends took the time today to explain that it's not either/or for them, but both. That by choosing their ideal, they ALSO choose people. By deciding to leave a loved one who supports an inherently abusive ideology, they choose to protect the people that would be hurt by that ideology. That could be themselves, their friends, or strangers. It wouldn't feel right to keep on hurting them by supporting that person. Idealistic primaries also choose people, only on a bigger scale. Please correct me if I got it wrong, and I mean that.

At the same time, when loyalist primaries are forced to choose between two persons, they do so because of whatever their ideology says is right. If I was a doctor and I had to choose between what is good for my patient and what is convenient for my colleagues, I hope I'd have the strength to choose my patient. Why? Because it's the right thing to do according to my ideals.

So my big revelation might have been obvious all along: Idealistic primaries are also loyal to people, only on a bigger scale. Loyalistic primaries also have ideals when forced to choose between people. None of it is a model, it's just part of being a complex human being.

And obviously, my friends are the best 😚

[misku-nimfa]

I'm the pirate anon! If you don't mind I would like to add that I would provide a different perspective to the crew when issues come up. I would be very protective of them and they of me especially the captain. I get kidnapped and held for ransom the captain wants to immediately rescue me, but the crew forces her to plan. They get one of the crew to distract while she goes onto the ship in secret to rescue me. As we escape the crew makes sure the other crew is incapacitated so they can't follow

Still some flavor of Loyalist Primary, but definitely leaning into a Badger Secondary now. Thank you for choosing to follow up with me 😊