Sonic Debate Club

As long as you're reasonable, you can debate anything here

[sonic-debate-club]

Askbox: ON, ANON ON

Mod: @maplethedarkshine

This is the blog to start debates and discussions. You can start a debate in asks, the mod will normally give an argument back as well, and then everyone in comments and reblogs is welcomed to give their point of view.

Do you really REALLY hate IDW? Is there a popular character or ship you despise? Do you want to defend an over hated game? Drop your argument in asks!

Rules

BEHAVE. We won’t police anyone’s language. You can say a game fucking sucked, or that the writing of a comic is a disgrace. But the moment anyone gets out of line with real people the entire comment section is being locked. You will treat everyone here with basic human decency, that’s to say you can’t insult real people in your arguments, or else they’ll be dismissed. What is “going over the line” will be determined case by case by me

This is strictly a Sonic blog. If your argument doesn’t include anything Sonic related… You’re in the wrong place

About NSFW, nothing straight up explicit will ever be shown here, but NSFW discussion will be allowed within what’s reasonable. What’s reasonable or not will be determined case by case by me

NO BIGOTRY. Get out of here. I would’ve assumed that the “behave” part would have no bigotry implied, but just in case

Other rules

If you go to my dms and just say "hi" without explaining what you want I'll just block you and assume you're a bot. Want to say something? Say it without greetings

Tags

Debate -> For all debates

Archie vs IDW -> If you want to avoid that

Shipping debate -> Anything related to shipping

Writing debate -> Well I guess most of these are self explanatory

Comics debate

Idw Debate

Archie Debate

Fleetway debate

Movies debate

Power scaling debate

Tv series debate

Art style debate

Japan vs USA Sonic

Character specific-> (and next tag will specify the character)

Game specific -> (and the next tag will specify the game)

Fandom culture -> for anything fan made related (fangames, fanart, fanfics, etc)

Character design debate

Debate starter -> for when the ask isn’t giving an argument, and just asking a question to start a debate

Not a debate -> For… well.

Mod debate -> For when the mod is the one starting the debate (will barely happen tbh)

Mod note

Announcement

[sonic-debate-club]

A complain I think only I care about regarding Crossworlds is how little vehicles they allow you to have per type. I love customizing cars I love making a car for every character but for every type you can only have like 5 customer vehicles, what's the point of that? Why can't I have infinite custom speed cars?

They also need to start adding more stickers that aren't illustrations. The drawing arw sick as fuck but please? Just some more graphics to make patterns that I can actually recolor? Or at least make it so I can mirror the character stickers

[sonic-debate-club]

the way people that claims elise kissing sonic just because it's ~symbolic~ of how elise is a princess of a kingdom that worships the sun god and sonic has a round belly as he's the sun or sonic is wind themed and she's breathing life to him honestly so corny to defend a cliched true love's kiss that don't feel earned because sonic's and elise's dynamic is so bland

but the fact that silver suggests that elise can revive sonic because she can sense his soul as iblis vessel and there's how earlier sonic was killed by mephiles means that elise as vessel to one half of solaris so she could sense sonic because mephiles's attack had solaris energy to marked sonic's soul thus allowing how her to sense and then tethered sonic's soul to her to transfer it back to his body then revived him with the chaos emeralds, it wasn't true love's kiss or whatever symbolism that lead to elise to kiss sonic rather if mephiles just used like a gun to kill sonic then sonic would've stay dead more longer instead mephiles caused his own demise as he unintentionally marked sonic's soul with solaris power allow for elise who was a vessel to solaris power to revive him to begin with lol

I have never in my life heard of that defense. I don't have any problem with it being corny, this is Sonic, a little corniness is part of the identity. But like... It's kind of wrong? I me and the sun part, the wind part is admittedly silly it made me chuckle lmao.

Of course, everyone is free to interpret stuff whatever they want to, but I like to kindly remind everyone that Sonic's belly representing the sun is a retroactive thing and not an intended thing for his design. During Sonic 3's development, someone decided that Sonic's belly looked like a sun and out of that made Knuckles' crest look like the moon. The sun symbolism regarding Sonic is only ever brought up in a context where Knuckles is there to be the moon, otherwise him being the sun is meaningless, so to see it being used in 06 is... Well, unexpected.

The idea of Mephiles just shooting at Sonic with a gun is hilarious ngl LMAO. Your interpretation is interesting. I see the vision. To me it really was just meant to be a Snowhite type shit about "reminding his soul about his connection to thw physical world" or smth like that. Like, his body was physically fine, his soul was still around, it was only a matter of putting that soul back where it belonged, at reminding it of the good life he had to come to back to

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Yeah, I don't like how Cream and Charmy were restricted than Tails eventhough they only have a short age gap and that is one of the downsides of TMOSTH due to limited characters used. Like Cream would love to attend Amy's birthday and Charmy is a junior detective and has faced danger as much as them. Yet they gave a reason of 'being too young' is a terrible excuse when Tails is there. Like I am sure Classic Tails is as young as them and has faced many danger.

Cream and Charmy are capable of handling dangerous missions well. In the Metal Virus arc, Gemerl wouldn't able to defeat one of Deadly Six without Cream around. Also Charmy, clearly has shown to handle himself in Phantom Riders arc especially when Clutch almost shot him even the one to send the harddrive to Nite. They are young but can handle much danger.

And I want to add that in the DC crossover, Tails has team up with the Teen Titans and has faced dangerous foes. Not to mentioned, Cream will end up teaming with Supergirl and she will likely faced dangerous foe and Charmy has seen with Brother Blood. Eventhough he didnt know HIVE is a terrorist group, he still able to defend himself.

I would've appreciated more if they just said "look we had no space for Cream and Charmy in the game ok?"

I'll tell myself that Cream WAS invited but got there too late and the train was on a schedule so they couldn't wait for her, and Charmy just happened to be sick that day. It would've been such an easy fix too, just add a couple extra dialog lines and boom, problem solved

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The sad thing about Metal Sonic is that he has many potential to be a rival, threat, enemy, villain, and many more. Yet as time passed on, he isn't even in same league as some of the Sonic villains, loss to many characters especially from Surge and Kit, and his rivalry lessened as the media focus more on the Shadow rivalry. Like the Metal Sonic rivalry make sense to be frequent than the Shadow rivalry because it is basically just Sonic and Shadow being stubborn instead of talking things out that resulted of why they loss and distracted.

I mean if you think about it, I rather have Metal Sonic in the Lunar arc than Shadow because that would make Eggman's inclusion better as to steal the chaos emeralds for Eggman and chances that he was stolen by the mysterious villain in the end of the Lunar arc before the Sage arc.

Metal Sonic has potential to be powerful than most of his foes, has a clear motive to be the better Sonic than Sonic, and has a chance to be a better. They could have make Metal Sonic a villain of his own arc. Maybe finding out about Scrapnik Island and decided to be destroy them.

Sonic 4 better be their last chance to give Metal Sonic a better characterization than before.

Sonic 4 is my last chance as a Metal Sonic fan to get anything good from him and if they flop I'm loosing faith on the character. Sega doesn't seem to take him as an individual with the ability of deep thought anymore, to them he's just a more powerful motobug at this point and that REALLY sucks.

I miss when he was allowed to be a character and not just an enemy. Sonic’s 4 save me...

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If IDW is planning to add humans in the comics, I hope they used characters like Professor Pickles because I felt some humans in the Sonic main canon are either GUN or Robotnik or both that it is no longer entertaining to see more, especially when Unleashed showcase how caring the humans are to Sonic and everyone else.

What I like about Professor Pickles that he isn't GUN nor a Robotnik to make Sonic world more bigger. I like Tori but felt she is replacing Professor Pickles and if theory about Tori is true, then I hope they do well with that characterization.

I also want to see Spagonia and other location like Windmill island because the atmosphere is beautiful.

That one moment where Blaze and Sonic went to Spagonia and it was all suspiciously empty as to not show any humans was so odd. The humans make the world feel so much alive, and if thw few humans we're allowed to have are all either relatives to Eggman or G.U.N agents it makes the world feel so much smaller.

Give us aide character humans. Give us NPC humans. Bring Professor Pickles back cowards

[sonic-debate-club]

I am not sure what Surge and Kit's fate will be in future issues, but I honestly think one day they might get separated. As a dynamic duo, those two work together well and even have a genuine bond with one another. But the problem is their views and mindset, especially how they still couldn't escape from Starline, whether it is psychological or physical (if the mysterious villain is who I think it is)

They are also co-dependent on each other, given their trust issues with others and only trust themselves, which is the major problem, especially with Kit, who is made to sabotage every incident to make Surge the hero, and it will backfire soon. Surge has shown to have a caring side, but doesn't truly understand the true meaning of heroism. Imagine her accomplishments only came from Kit, which will end up getting a trust issue. Surge is already upset that Starline used her and Kit, and it will be worst that even the most trusted friend lied and used her.

Those two do need to be separated if they want to be a healthy dynamic as Kit focuses too much on Surge to realize what he did is wrong. It is also important them being seperated would be interacting with others without the other one. Like we barely see Kit interacting with children his age besides Tails and Surge has seen interacting with Blaze and Amy that could be potential friends to her.

They're 100% setting up a whole thing where Surge finds out what Kit is doing and they end up getting separated and I can't wait to see how that ends up 🙌

[sonic-debate-club]

The thing about people going "But the one time Metal had freedom he tried killing people" when you try to analyze Metal's character and this IDW scene is that Sonic doesn't care about that. That's not what he's criticizing Metal for, he's criticizing him for going back to Eggman, Aka the one action Metal had no choice in

[maplethedarkshine]

also that blurb makes the crossworlds metal sonic interactions with others ragging at metal sonic with some of them are mad that he's being rebellious means the sonic cast are getting mad at metal sonic regaining back his autonomy like yes metal sonic done bad as a bad person but it's very bad look on sonic cast especially the good guys in sonic and his friends being angry that someone who is trying to get back their autonomy and prefer said someone in lobotomized state, LIKE WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU GUYS

This is the moment when I want all of you to take me seriously when I say "Metal Sonic is an abuse victim" without coming after me with the "He's a killing machine" thing to properly have this conversation.

He is quite literally a slave to Eggman. The one time he got autonomy yes, he used it to try to take over the world, but he was also so painfully clearly going through a mental breakdown and, dare I say, psychosis and I mean that in the literal, clinical sense of the word. And for it, he got punished further from what was actually deserved considering what he actually did.

In Sonic Rivals 2, he seems to trust Shadow enough to be willing to destroy himself to give Shadow a chaos emerald to escape the Ifrit dimension. Eggman didn't commanded him to do that. There was no tactical advantage to do that and he could've just left Shadow to his luck. And what did Shadow do to gain his trust? Literally just treat him with basic decency. You may call Metal unredeamable but it takes the bare minimum for him to show that he can, indeed, be a good person as well anf show empathy to others.

So, why was that the only time he did anything good out of his own will? Because it was the only time he got treated with basic decency by anyone. He's either getting treated like a mindless machine at best and actively abused at worse.

He has no voice, no autonomy, no free will, and yet, even when successfully turned into an empty shell it isn't enough because apparently in universe people will still be mad at his "rebelliousness" and will want to further "correct his behavior." So I ask, when will it be enough? When will he be obedient enough, quiet enough, empty enough to stop being punished for existing?

Yes, you can call Metal irredeemable all the time. But what chance has he ever gotten to get better? To grow as a person? To get to even BE a person at all? Not to pull the "poor uwu baby that has done nothing wrong" but I find it hard to even call him "evil" when most of his evil actions are commanded by someone that he can't escape.

[sonic-debate-club]

I suppose this also goes here

[maplethedarkshine]

the fact that metal sonic's latest bio have that him being lobotomized is treated as a good, heroic thing by sonic and his friends goes to show that sonic is a franchise as done by corporation despite how sonic series and its mc preaches about freedom, the very fact they have that a character stripped of his autonomy under someone that has great authority over him to suit his preferences is treated as good thing pairs with how corporate will limits freedom and strip away stuff to suit their preferences

I... I just said this on Twitter. I just send this as an ask to the cursed sonic opinions blog. Am I going insane? What is this double deja vu?

Outside of that!

The wording of this is just nonsensical to me it makes me think whoever wrote it never played sonic heroes and was just given a quick summary before even if you ignore the blatant disregard of Metal's character and the themes of the franchise, this is just... Incorrect information. Like, factually incorrect. Type of shit I'd post on the Incorrect Sonic lore blog. Maybe I'm bad English stupid and I'm misinterpreting the text, but the wording makes it seem like Sonic defeating Metal is what made him loose sentience when...

No, Sonic didn't do that. He defeated him, THEN Eggman reprogrammed Metal. You could argue that they defeating Metal is what allowed Eggman to get back control of him, but the wording isn't saying that, the wording is saying that it was all thanks to Sonic and friends actions.

Metal never lost his sentience. Ambition and autonomy? Sure, but sentience? Have we not played sonic Rivals 2 where he, out of his own free will, destroyed himself to give Shadow a chaos emerald so they can escape the ifrit dimension? Have we forgotten that the heroes plot happened again in free riders? Have we not read the comics where Metal, out of his own will, tries to get himself infected by the Metal virus? He never lost his consciousness, he just lost the means to express and communicate it.

Like, they give you the worst summary ever of the heroes plot line and they manage to get every single detail wrong, this is almost impressive.

And (AND) it's fucked up that they treat this like a good thing? Gemerl gets to at least be reprogrammed, when Emerl's programming went nuts it was treated like a tragedy, when Shadow lost his memory and free will in 05 it was treated as a tragedy, Chaos caused a genocide and a half and he still gets to be a tragedy, they treat Eggman as more of a tragedy than Metal (specifically in frontiers and pre metal virus stuff) when that man split the earth on half and blew up the moon. You may say "but Metal is a bad person/a killing machine!" but realistically, what uniquely bad thing has he ever done in canon that makes him worse than the people listed before and deserving similar to Mephiles and Erazor Djinn aka the "I'm going to destroy the entire universe" guys? What has Metal done to deserve this that make him more irredeemable than, let's say, Chaos and Eggman? Why is it, in a franchise about freedom and autonomy, that this one guy HAS to be imprisoned forever? It seems like an overblown punishment.

I'm not asking for Metal to get redeemed, I'm just asking for the logic to be, well, logical, and it makes the supposed morals of the franchise seem hypocritical. Sonic mr "I won't kill Eggman because everyone deserves the right of freedom, and if they use it to do bad things I'll just stop them!" the hedgehog while the franchise is lobotomizing a robot because it got too free for one game. Give me a break.

[sonic-debate-club]

I suppose this goes here

[sonic-debate-club]

I don't know if they'll announce a new mainline game this anniversary, but even if they don't I'm ok with it, actually. I'd rather us not get another 06 situation for the sake of getting out a tittle on the anniversary year.

Regardless, happy birthday Sonic!!!

[sonic-debate-club]

The fact that Ian Flynn was gonna make another Zeti character but didn’t because people hated the Deadly Six so much is heartbreaking man 💔

You’re telling me we could’ve had another Zeti character??? CMON MAN JUST BECAUSE SOME PEOPLE HATE EM DOESNT MEAN EVERYBODY DOES

they really should expand on the Deadly Sixes lore more, but atleast that’s something I can do in my free time

Sorry if this sounded mean, I’m just tired of seeing the Deadly Six get so hated when there is so much potential only some see

Personally I don't really care all that much about the Zeti tbh, I'm sorry... Ian Flynn seems to write them pretty well so I wouldn't complain with a Zeti character coming from him specifically. That'd be interesting to see at least, and I'd trust him to do them justice. It seems we're not getting that though, so that's a shame

[sonic-debate-club]

https://www.tumblr.com/sonic-debate-club/813967697733959680/i-know-theres-other-problems-with-rouges-current?source=share

OMG I was wondering why her current model's face looked off to me, I just assumed it was just lighting (which imo is the main reason the current models "look bad" if SEGA gave them cooler pose's and lit them better I think they'd get less hate online) but no it's mostly because the eyeliner no longer frames her eyes!

Reminds me of how Sonic used to have a black eye line (to imply eyelashes) when SEGA made his eyelids blue (e.g. SA1 DX and Hero's model), but now he doesn't have that and it looks weird (plus they're kinda puffy at the end for some reason?)

also curious about what you think of shadow's eyelids being black? I think it suits him best but have seen many wish they were red so they stood out more when he blinks or has eyes shut.

Oh! I have thoughts about this! The thing is, it depend and it kind of depends on art style and medium. The eyelids are there to make it the expression visible, that's why the blue eyelids look bad when there's no eyelashes: with Sonic's fur color being a darker blue, the shape gets lost. It's also why Rouge look bad when the eyelashes aren't framing her eyes: the white of the fur and rhe white of the eyes gets blended and the shape gets lost.

With Shadow it REALLY depends. Usually the red around his eyes is enough to frame the shape of his expression, that plus his eyebrow bridge being higher, and in 3d with proper lighting it shouldn't be a problem. But (BUT) in 2d styles it's easier to make the shape get lost. I've got ab example here, actually. Look how, unless I add the extra lighter lines, the eye shape gets lost on the left side. On the other hand, it makes the expression more readable in the right side, but perhaps the contrast is too much + it overloads the red when red is an accent color and the black should be the main one. It makes his design more busy than it should. It's a pick your poison kind of thing, and ultimately both can work depending on how you pull it off. However, it's for the better for Sega to keep the black eyelids, as these problems don't exist with the 3D models, so there's not much that needs to be compensating for. I personally keep his eyelids black when I'm doing a rendered drawing where the lighting replicates the volume of the 3d modek and red eyelids when I'm doing a flat/high contrast drawing (or if I just want to make him cuntier)

Just for a test, I also tried with tan eyelids. I don't know what to do of this

[sonic-debate-club]

one of the criticisms that i saw from someone’s review of 06 is “all the character models are so dull and barely makes expressions!” which made me realize that vast majority of 06 cutscenes is characters literally just standing there and not making much expressions beyond like sorta smiling or frowning

i think what hurts the sonic and elise scenes is that for a bold, charming character like sonic, most of the times in those scenes, he’s literally just standing there with a blank expression next to elise?

Saw someone on Twitter say that on the cutscene where Elise and Eggman die and Sonic falls to his knees devastated that Blaze just looked bored and I think that sums up the problems with the models. They mostly look great until they they have to start moving.

Sonic 06 isn't the best written story ever but it certainly would've been better received if the characters could express emotions. The stiff animations only really fit Omega and Mephiles, everyone else looks like a literal puppet.

[sonic-debate-club]

Since I’ve seen a lot of Sonic 06 and Blaze-related posts here, I decided to throw in my “rewrite” or my understanding of the game.

Basically, the game takes place before Rush and Blaze has very weak fire powers; she decides to take Iblis instead of Silver, knowing full well that she’ll die.

And Blaze wakes up in the Sol Dimension. By using the Chaos Emeralds to absorb Iblis, the Chaos Emeralds had briefly connected to the Sol Dimension and it sent her there.

After absorbing Iblis, Blaze now has the fire powers that she currently has, at the same intensity.

(it's ok if I'm here literally 2 months later...?)

I'm not a fan of Blaze being in 06 in general, but at least this makes more sense than whatever they were trying to do in the original 💔 I have no idea why they're trying to say that Rush came first when. Like. How??? Since Blaze is already in 06 and there's nothing to be done about it, something like you're suggesting could fix up the logic at least

[sonic-debate-club]

Seeing the reviews of Mario Galaxy and how they have criticism of Peach and Rosalina, it makes me hope Sonic 4 did well in Amy's characterization especially since besides Maria, she is the first female game characted to debut and I know people will ready their judgement on her characterization.

I read a post before on how no matter what kind of characterization Movie Amy has like being too girlbossed, too sweet, too stalker, too motherly, or so many things, she will be criticize for that and that is a sad way to think so and how true it is knowing not many people will be pleased.

For Movie Amy to work in Sonic 4, I can see her not falling in love with Sonic in the beginning of the movie but ended up did as time passed on. She wouldn't immediately go stalker mode and just learn to love Sonic as a friend. She can be a caring and sweet person to the people she is around while also being a defender and fighter against her enemies. She doesn't have to be a leader type, well I could see her leader level being similar to Team Rose but not resistance type leader like in Forces. While she can fight herself, she also have weaknesses and needing help by anyone but the same time also be the one lend a hand on her friends.

That way it shows that she can handle herself as a hero and fighter but also knows she can't handle everything.

The Mario movie is old news by now (I am SO SO SORRY for answering so late ugh) and somehow I haven't seen it yet so idk how good or bad it actually is

BUT! Honestly everyone will be mad no matter what her characterization is. Mostly all movie characterizations are good so I'm choosing to have faith... Hope her personality is mostly like IDW Amy. SPECIALLY the clean sweepstakes arc. Oh that Amy was peak writing.

And I don't really care a lot about romance in the movies, but they already confirmed that there WILL be romance so, idk I hope Sonic and Amy don't immediately swoon for each other all sappy, that'd be a little lame ngl. Give them time to fall in love at least

[sonic-debate-club]

Dead chat.

Ah fuck I gotta answer to the asks here fuck