Where are you from? And what’s your first memories linked to hip hop?
I’ve lived all over - Belgium, Germany, Ohio, Missouri, the Virgin Islands, San Francisco, and now Los Angeles. But I spent the most years, including high school and college, in Missouri, so I feel like that’s where “I’m from.” I first remember hearing hip hop while living on St. Thomas (in the Virgin Islands) and the three songs that started me on this journey were “I Need Love,” by LL Cool J, “You Be Illin’” by Run-DMC and “Fight For Your Right To Party” by the Beastie Boys. I must have heard them on the radio, so that would have been 1987 - the year of my hip hop birth. In 1988, I moved back to Missouri and a neighbor of mine had a ton of rap tapes so I’d borrow his tapes all the time or listen to them in his car on the drive to school. I believe that the first tape I ever bought was Schooly D’s “Smoke Some Kill” (1988).
What got you started with Atak Distribution, how and when did it begin?
Fast forward to 1994 - I had graduated from college, where I had been the Hip Hop Director at the school’s radio station, and moved to San Francisco where I began an internship at Gavin, a music magazine that curated Top 40 lists for radio programmers. Somehow through that job, I met DJ Stef (editor of the Vinyl Exchange) and started writing record reviews for her. And on one fateful day, I received a copy of Sacred Hoop’s “Demo” tape for review and I thought it was the freshest thing in the world and in 1996 I officially became an underground hip hop junkie.
Were you a hardcore music collector before you started Atak?
Before Atak, I had a decent cd and record collection, full of ‘90s “golden era” major label releases, but hardly any tapes and barely anything considered “indie” or “underground.” Back then I wasn’t a collector, just a music fan, because all this incredible music was just sitting at the record stores for $12.99. I shopped a lot at Amoeba and Rasputin’s and a few other smaller stores in the Bay area, plus a few record labels and artists would send me promos for review.
How did you choose what would be in your catalog? How did you make contacts with the artists?
Starting with Sacred Hoop, I was certain that this amazing group wasn’t getting the exposure it deserved, so the seeds of Atak were first planted. I then started soliciting for more submissions through the Vinyl Exchange and some other Bay area rap magazines, such as 4080. I think that the Hoop started spreading the word, too, because I soon started getting tapes from the likes of FTA, Megabusive, San Francisco Street Music, Jedi Knights Circle, 99th Demention and others from the South Bay and SF. Somewhere in there, I met up with the Mystic Journeymen, bought some tapes from them, and was eventually exposed to Berkeley and Oakland artists such as the Living Legends, Hobo Junction, Zion-I and Illa Dapted. If I liked your tape, it would get in the Atak catalog. The first printed mail-order catalog had 12 tapes in it and the very first tape sold was Mystik Journeymen’s “Escape Forever” on August 10th, 1996.
Was the mail-order a full time job or did you have other occupations (studies, other job?)?
During the first few years I had several jobs: the Gavin internship became a paid job, I worked at a grocery store and then later at a vegetarian cafe. Eventually, since my rent was cheap and I was starting to sell more music, I was able to do Atak full-time. All the storage and shipping was done out of my bedroom.
Did you have many overseas/international customers and what role did that play in the business?
It looks like I started getting my first international orders (from Finland!) in 1997. I don’t know how they found out about Atak, but they were serious fans of West Coast underground so word spreads fast amongst those folks. Fans in Finland, Australia, Canada and Japan were my strongest supporters, with a few folks in France and Germany, too. This was before I started selling online, so these folks were trusting me with their cash and money orders and I will be forever indebted to them. Through these customers, I was exposed to international hip hop and eventually started selling music from the likes of Ceebrolistics, the Sebutones, mcenroe, Mary Joy Recordings, Muphin and the Hilltop Hoods.
What was the « peak » year in terms of sales and in terms of quality of music?
After a year or so of mailing out catalogs and setting up tables of merchandise at shows, Atak finally got online with the help of one of my earliest customers, Todd (aka Vic aka Celph Titled), who was extremely active on hip hop message boards, and he really helped spread the word around the U.S. and the world, so Atak started getting more non-Bay area music in the catalog and I started getting orders from everywhere. I think that the music quality was strong start to finish. I was listening to everything before I put it in the catalog, and if it wasn’t dope, it didn’t get in.
Did you ever wanted to make Atak a bigger thing, like UGHH or such?
There was a time in which I would have loved for Atak to get really big, because it was all so much fun - all the shows, meeting the artists, hearing a ton of new music, even the packing and shipping was fun for me. But in hindsight, it is clear that I was better at being a huge fan of the music rather than being a savvy businessperson. At the point in which digital music started taking off, I didn’t have the technical knowhow to adjust accordingly, and a big part of me still simply loved selling physical copies. As a fan, I didn’t want everything to go digital, but as a businessperson I should have dived in headfirst to keep up with the other big websites. I admired what the other sites were doing, and what friends like Shane (aka Kegs) was doing with Below the Surface - putting out records, putting on shows, opening a brick-and-mortar storefront. But part of me liked keeping things small and simple, but that clearly pushed me into smaller and more obscure corner of the online hip hop biz and eventually bumped me out of it altogether.
You did some cd-r reissues as well as a couple of mix-cds. Any temptation of launching a proper record label (as in: « new release, no reissue ») at some point?
I’d been wanting FOREVER to start a label and put out records! I made a feeble attempt to put out an Atak compilation in the late ‘90s, full of all the folks that were in my catalog at the time. I was able to get maybe 7-10 crews over to my house one night to talk about it, but since I had no idea how to really put it all together, I ended up getting one original song, from Nitrous Ox, out of that great big idea. More recently, I’ve been hoping to help folks put out releases but nothing has materialized just yet. Nowadays almost everyone is really good at getting this stuff done themselves, so I’m happy that they are taking control of their destinies and getting their music out to the world.
Can you give us your personal Top 5 favorites in your sale catalog? Also one that you think was dope and didn’t have the recognition it deserved?
In no particular order, I’ll list a few of my favorites, but I’m obligated to mention Sacred Hoop’s “Demo” (aka “Sacred Hoop” aka “Runny Poop”) first since that tape inspired everything. I was also thrilled to be able to pick up indie music from the Hieroglyphics (“Hiero Oldies”)and Saafir (Hobo Junction’s “Limited Edition Compilation”) since I was such a fan of their major label stuff. I really liked Red Tide’s “Rogue MCs” tape. Disflex6’s self-titled debut (aka “1984”) was great. The Kracken’s “Abstract & Cognac” left me wanting much more. The Sebutones’ “50/50 Where It Counts” blew my mind! Early stuff Dose One and Why? showed me that hip hop had no boundaries. This is an extremely abbreviated favorites list - as I look back through my old catalogs, I realize that I loved them all. It was all so new and so fresh and I think these artists all deserved more recognition than they got. I’m glad that I could help expose them a bit but I wish I could have done a lot more.
Did you developed friendship with artists/crews over those years and do you have interesting stories/ anecdotes linked to that?
My anecdotal memory is terrible so I’ve sadly forgotten a ton of great stories, fantastic show moments and hilarious conversations. Looking back, I should have kept a journal or taken a million photographs, because we all had so much fun and did so much back then. But, luckily for me, I’ve been able to keep in touch with a few of my very favorite people, emcees Luke Sick (Sacred Hoop/Grand Invincible) and Roughneck Jihad (Third Sight), and producer Deeskee (who has probably produced more songs in the Atak catalog than anyone else). And luckily for everyone else, all three of these guys are still making incredible music, more than 20 years after giving me tapes to review. A few weeks ago I got to hang out with The Grouch for a bit and he gave me a copy of his “F…the Dumb” double vinyl, 20 years after I first sold that tape in the catalog.
Why (and when) did you stopped Atak?
Atak started to slow down around 2004. I had recently moved from the Bay area down to Los Angeles, gotten married, bought a house, and started another job that was able to pay the bills more reliably. I was still getting orders and submissions from new artists, but wasn’t able to give Atak the focus it required to really push new artists and releases. I didn’t have time to go to many shows anymore, and all my hip hop buddies were still up in the Bay. I had ambitions to reboot the website, but then my web host got hacked and I had to shut down the site…and then I never got it back online. I eventually moved my inventory onto some other online platforms and kept selling, but for the most part, Atak was done. I’d like to take this opportunity to apologize to the artists who submitted music around this time. I was getting some great music but just didn’t have juice to do anything with it.
Any thoughts on the evolution of hip hop? What about the the come back of the cassette? Is it possible that Atak would make a comeback in the future, in some form or another?
Tough question, because I don’t keep up with much truly “underground” music anymore, so I really hope that there are a ton of dope kids putting out dope music out there, and I’m sure there are plenty of them. I love 90’s hip hop so much, both major label and my Atak stuff, that that is what I still listen to the most, digging in my records, tapes and cds or bumping music in my car. I agree with most true heads that a lot of today’s hip hop is junk, and though I’m happy to see rappers get big and make money, I’d much rather that it be good, original and compelling hip hop. I’m stoked to see everyone buying and releasing tapes again, because of my love for the physical copy (though I agree that a free or cheap digital download is an essential part of that sale). And in regards to Atak’s great big comeback, I don’t think it will happen - it would require too much time and energy to do it right. But if I can still help out a few people, promote a few records, maybe even sell a few for my old pals, I’m happy to contribute.
A specific question from the homie Age: do you still want to reissue that Hi-State album?
I bugged my man Mr. E about that tape FOREVER and at least he finally put it up on Bandcamp (https://eightarrow.bandcamp.com/album/hi-state-project-demos-n-shit-vol-1) and we chatted about putting out a cassette reissue. I’m sure he wouldn’t have much trouble selling a short run of 100 tapes, so I’ll remind him about it. But I’m happy that fans can at least take a listen or buy it online.
What do you think was the most special in the 90’s underground scene, and do you believe something like that would ever happen again?
I’ve never really tried to analyze that scene, but in retrospect, I bet that a lot of these emcees, producers and deejays were inspired by all the incredible major label releases that kept pouring out in that decade. So much quality hip hop was coming out and it was easy to see on “Yo! MTV Raps” and BET and the good stuff was even getting on the radio! It was everywhere and it was so damn good! I’m sure that these kids just wanted to be a part of that magical time, and a lot of the underground music was super fresh, too, because it wasn’t easy to make beats and put out cds - they had to commit to it and create a whole scene and they had to be dope to do it. Granted, I’m a old nostalgic rap dude now, but I don’t think the major or the underground scene will ever be that saturated with fantastically innovative, powerful, creative and inspired hip hop. Nowadays there isn’t enough inspiration in the scene for there to be an onslaught of great new hip hop like there was for me back in the days. There will always be a lucky few who can inspire themselves to be original and make great music, and hopefully these kids will get a chance to be heard.
Interview conducted by Kaliyuga Pro & Pseudzero with a bonus cameo by Age, february 2019.
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