#a03 discourse

[lastoneout]

I never thought I’d see the rebirth of the banned books movement about a fanfiction website but here we are.

As wiser blogs have said before me, when you start deciding that it’s ok to censor content, that power will inevitably end up in the hands of people who want to censor you.

That’s why people read and celebrate banned books. That’s why A03 exists. I cannot believe we have to have this conversation again.

[lastoneout]

oor-bellamyspace

replied to your post

“I never thought I’d see the rebirth of the banned books movement about...”

Exploring dark themes: good Literal pedoporn for the sake of porn: bad

people want the pedo porn and rape for the sake of rape porn on a03 to be taken down.

So I feel like this is where there is going to be a lot of disagreement because there isn’t an answer that everyone is gonna like.

But here’s the thing. By us laws child porn only counts as child porn when its about an actual living child. So you can personally object to the existence of porn involving fictional minors, but there is nothing illegal about it.

And I’m gonna tag @cgf-kat because you asked what was going on and I’m gonna cover that here. 

So essentially A03 was created in response to the purges of explicit content on fanfiction.net and of fan content on livejournal. These were two big turning points in proving that even sites catering to fandom really had no idea what they were doing, and that the only real answer was to find a place where fans could ensure that other fans had a place where they could go and share their works. Thus, Archive of Our Own was founded, and it had the strict policy that any and all content was allowed. As long as it wasn’t targeting or harassing a real person or people, and that it was tagged properly, anything was allowed. 

And that’s because they understand that when we suddenly decide to police fan content, or any content, we very quickly slide down a very slippery slope. Censorship is always a touchy topic, and that’s kind of why things like Banned Book Week exist, to show us that no one should be able to dictate what we are allowed to read. I doesn’t matter the content, it should be there for us to engage with and talk about. Because when we give someone the power to censor things, we end up losing everything. As blogs wiser than me have said, when you give someone the power to censor things, eventually they are going to start censoring you. No one deserves that power. 

The real issue here is that censorship doesn’t really work, especially when it comes to fandom issues. 

So say we decide first to ban sexual content, what is the definition of sexual? Is it strictly sex? Or do things like sensual making out and cuddling count? Those things can be sexual. So then, should we ban all relationship based content entirely, as most relationships lead to sex? And if so, who gets to decide what counts as sexual and what doesn’t? What are their biases? Are they going to say that all lgbtqa+ relationships are wrong but straight ones are good? Must all romantic content be strictly vanilla and fluff to avoid offending anyone? 

What about so-called abusive ships? What do we do when one person says its abusive and another says it isn’t? Who gets to decide? What if cannon isn’t so clear, do we ban it all just to be safe? Do we refuse any content regarding villains? Are all Villain/Protag ships always problematic? Can people write redemption stories or AUs? Or do those romanticize violence? Must all villains be written as such, and do all stories involving them have to explicitly state that said characters are bad? Can we trust people to understand that? Or must we point it out? 

Can we write angst? Can we write about violence and death? Must it only be canon typical violence? Or can we expand on it? Can we write about characters dying? Which characters are we allowed to kill? Just adults? What about minorities? Can we only write stories about violence happening to cis straight white men? Or should we just get rid of all violent content entirely? What about arguments? Disagreements? Can we only write about everyone getting along and having fun? Is anything else problematic? 

And then of course there are people who write about violence and rape to cope. Are they not allowed either? And if we allow them how do we find out who is writing to heal and who just enjoys dark things? Should everyone have to share intimate personal details so they can post their works without judgement? What about teens writing about fictional teens being sexual? Is that allowed? Can adults write about teens or is that wrong? And how to we confirm that the writers are teens? Is that even possible? 

In the end, the question is, how can we be objective in a fandom space where things are constantly subjective? 

And since fandom is so subjective, do we only allow works that are based entirely on cannon? That kinda defeats the purpose of fan works entirely. Once we start censoring things, its only a matter of time until we are down to such strict guidelines that the whole purpose of fandom is stripped away and no one can have any fun so they leave. Censorship does not work. 

So instead of dealing with all that, A03 has its extensive tagging system. Instead of putting it in the hands of a few random people to decide what is allowed, we put it in the hands of the people engaging in the fiction to decide what they want to see. You can exclude almost any tag in your searches on their site. Explicit content is marked as such, it even gives you an extra warning just to make sure that you know what you are getting into. Rape fics, abuse fics, incest fics, they are all tagged. If you find them and you read them then any emotional distress you feel is YOUR FAULT. You were warned. You read it anyway. Your reaction is your responsibility. 

And who are we censoring this for anyway? Kids? A03 the rest of the goddamn internet are NOT safe spaces for children. So for the adults? Why do we care if adults see adult content? Adults are expected to have a healthy relationship with fiction. They are supposed to know the difference between fiction and reality. And if you can’t? Well, you shouldn't be engaging with fiction at all, let alone adult fiction. 

And listen. You aren’t protecting children by removing said content. The internet is FULL of porn, kids are gonna find it. In fact, fan-fiction offers a rather safe environment for teens to explore their sexuality. I know it did for me. Teens should be allowed to explore that side of themselves. To stand against that basically just plays into the anti-sex ed side where we cannot ever tell teens and pre-teen about sex because oh no what if they do the sex!! And that’s a tired ass argument that only ends up harming children in the end. 

And hey, explicit content is flagged as such. If kids find it and read it it isn’t the author’s fault, it the fault of the kid for lying and their parent for not monitoring their child’s online activity. 

So you can find said content disturbing and not want to read it or engage with people who read and write it, but you don’t get to say it isn’t allowed. These authors aren’t breaking any laws, they aren’t hurting anyone and if you engage with things you know will upset you that is your fault. And if kids find it, that the the parent’s fault. 

That’s why A03 exists. That why we celebrate banned books. Because you don’t get to decide what people are allowed to think and feel and do. As long as its legal and they aren’t hurting anyone, which they aren’t, then you have no fucking say in what they do. 

(And I mean, how can we decide how we feel about things and have meaningful discussions regarding them if we don’t know they exist?) 

[scavengerssuccotash]

Not to be like a reddit bro, but the A03 subreddit is fucking wild and I love it. Lots of laughs, lots of discourse and cheers

[gay-jewish-bucky]

all this ao3 discourse is reminding me of a few things

that a month or so ago i was "exposed as a groomer", why? on a mutual's post that quoted chris evans call the people aggressively opposing the queer rep in lightyear "idiots" someone reacted really angrilly and stated that this was their last straw and they could no longer support him. i pointed their account out in the replies so other people could block them like i had. they took a screenshot of my blog and posted it stating i was a groomer/supported grooming bc i supported queer rep in a kids movie

being very newly out to myself over a decade ago, and reading youtube comments from people claiming that gay people were doing unimaginable shit around children and saying that it was just part of our nature and we were dangerous predators

the first queer book i ever read was Annie on My Mind, a sweet story about two young girls who fall in love, it was the first YA book that portrayed queer characters positively and that is one of the most challenged books in U.S. history (being actually burned at least once), one case even making it to federal court

homophobes think children being aware that queer people exist at all is inherently predatory and that we're all groomers, look more recently at the right wing response to drag queen story hour and the repugnant things said

queer content is not safe, they will come for it under the guise of "protecting the children" and you all need to understand that, this isn't paranoia, this is our reality

as Rabbi Steven Greenberg, an openly gay orthodox rabbi and major advocate for LGBT+ acceptance in the Jewish community says in “Wrestling with G-d and Men: Homosexuality in the Jewish Tradition”,

“Gay sex life, unlike straight sex life, is never a private matter. When a man and a woman walk hand in hand, it is their love that they make public. When two men walk hand in hand, it is their sex life that they make public… Our words are acts; our privacy is public. This reality stems from the nature of homophobia.”

Update: Election Results posted August 15th at 9:10pm EDT

Tiffany G has NOT been elected to the board

[bad-writer]

The vast majority of people on ao3 aren't into paedophilia though.

The underage tag (which includes works such as 2 teenagers having sex that would be legal where they are and also works that are actively showing that thing as fucked up) isn't exactly well used iirc, making up only around 1% of the fics.

Rape fantasies are the most prevalent sexual fantasy in the general population also, iirc, which is why it's popular.

I believe you that pedophilia isn’t the most common tag on a03 but I stumble across so much of it on there that it does seem to be a significant interest. I have nothing against adults writing teenagers having sex; I mean teenagers do have sex, there’s nothing weird about that, but when an adult writes porn featuring teenagers, it is disturbing. As for rape being a common fantasy... yeah that certainly checks out, idk, call me a prude but when I see that sort of thing pop up so much on the archive I do kind of fine myself.... wondering....

[bad-writer]

Alright, legitimate question: why is everyone on A03 so into like... incest? And pedophilia and rape?? Like why? Why do you want to read stories like this? Legitimately begging for an explanation

[justmeandmythoughtson]

A relevant post

It's circled around before, but I believe it will only slowly lose relevance.

https://www.theverge.com/2018/11/8/18072622/fanfic-ao3-free-speech-censorship-fandom

[lastoneout]

I think that people who are arguing that A03 should be censored by pointing to libraries and schools as examples of ‘protecting the children from dangerous ideas and stories’ don’t really get the degree of ‘impurity’ in classic lit. And most if not all libraries and schools encourage kids to read classic lit and banned books. 

In my time in school I was either required or encouraged to read books like:

- Of Mice and Men, a book where a young woman is attacked by a mentally ill man, and the man is then killed by his friend. Also a nice splash of racism. 

- Things Fall Apart, a book where a man kills and fights several people, defends his religion which requires that certain babies be killed or left to die, has multiple young wives, and in the end kills himself. 

- It Happened to Nancy, which is about a young woman who is raped and eventually dies of AIDS. 

- The Golden Compass, which has children being abused, killed, mutilated, tortured, and sold. Also contains graphic murder, cannibalism, sexual references, and a bunch of other ‘bad’ stuff. 

- The Secret Life of Bees, which hooo boy lemme tell ya ‘bout racism. 

- The Kite Runner, a book in which a child is raped, graphically depicts war, executions, violent crimes, and death, and prominently features child abuse. 

- The Diary of Anne Frank, a book where a young girl talks about her experiences throughout puberty, her sexual and romantic desires, and is graphically killed at the end. 

-  Romeo and Juliet, a play with an underage relationship that features a girl of 13-15 having sex with a man at least 4-5 years her senior and in the end kills herself 

- The Giver, a book that features a post-apocalyptic society that routinely kills infants and the elderly and describes said deaths in detail. Also medically assisted suicide and gruesome injuries. 

- Memoirs of a Geisha, which outside of being racist as hell, has statutory rape, child abuse, underage girls who are prostitutes, sex, sexual innuendos, sexual assault, implied pedophilia, actual pedophilia, the purposeful injuring of a young girl so she can be seen as a sexual object, abortions, domestic abuse, death, graphic death, cancer, child sex trafficking, regular sex trafficking, sexism, and a whole bucket of other fucked up things. 

- The Lovely Bones, which is about a teenage girl who is kidnapped, raped, and graphically killed. 

- A Series of Unfortunate Events, which hooooooo boy lemme tell you ‘bout child abuse.

- Go Ask Alice....which man where do you even START with that book. Drug abuse, sex, rape, the protag is a 15 year old girl....just damn. 

- To Kill a Mockingbird, which talks about lynching, rape, death,and racism. 

- Lord of the Flies, a book that is legit just about kids graphically murdering each other. 

- Where The Red Fern Grows, which was read to us aloud by our teacher in 4th grade, a book that EXTREMELY GRAPHICALLY depicts two dogs being attacked, dismembered, disemboweled, and dying. 

-  Snowflower and the Secret Fan, a book that describes three young girls being purposely disfigured and one of them dying from it 

For real, check out this list of books that are common required reading in school and tell me if you find a single one that is ‘ideologically pure’. I read all of that before I was 18, most of which, once again, were required or encouraged by my schools. You think a little bit of incest or pedophilia in a fic is really gonna bother or even change the mind of any american teenager? We PREFORMED Oedipus in my sophomore year drama class! We wrote essays about Shakespeare plays! We argued about the morality of murder and the truth of the human condition!!

And those are just the ones I remember, not to mention books like Catch 22, Fahrenheit 451, Hatchet, Slaughterhouse Five, Night, Catcher in the Rye, 1984, Dante’s Inferno, The Pearl, The Great Gatsby, Frankenstein, these books are all read by teenagers and contain way more fucked up shit than your average fanfiction. Honestly fanfics are TAME by comparison. 

And yes you could argue that we did have ample context for those books and teachers and adults who could help us frame them properly, but not for all of them. Most librarians point us to those books and tell us to read them all because people want to stop us from being able to read them. To exercise our right to free thought. Neither my parents or my teachers ever tried to stop me from reading a single book I wanted to read, and I turned out pretty ok.

So like....you can kinda see why a lot of people don’t think that A03 filtering its content is either a good idea or even worth it. Because in the end its all censorship, no matter how you try to put it. 

The road to hell is paved with good intentions. The best laid plans of mice and men oft go awry. And if you give someone the power to censor, they are gonna do way more harm than good, I promise you that.