#abagools

[geenawrites]

Speed Running 'The Old Guard' Fanficion (while Job Hunting) - RE:RE

abagools replied to your post: "Speed Running 'the Old Guard' Fanfiction While Job..."

"Great read. I agree with a lot of your observations as they’re things I’ve noticed too, over the years. Especially wrt Nile and the fandom’s general dismissal of her. I always think trying is better than nothing (in terms of cultural markers and context for Nile as a black woman) but most people either don’t want to get it wrong or just don’t see her as worth the effort. Looking at both fandom interactions on here and at fics it’s mainly the latter. Like not even a month ago there was a post in the main tag where the user was asked about her and they admitted that they didn’t write her often and when they did, wrote her like a white American/didn’t bother with racial-cultural markers and also made her asexual (the go-to for black women in fandoms people pretend to care for but don’t or BW who get in the way of their usually white m/m ships) and I found the lack of self awareness by that user incredibly fascinating lol. Like a super on the nose encapsulation of everything wrong with fandom."

Note: Written 9/12/2025 - 9/26/25 (this was written as replies were being posted, and refined over a span of two weeks to clarify text.)

1. Blackness, Femslash, and Patriarchy

(Thank you so much, I'm thrilled you enjoyed the piece.) I feel like, since the landscape of Tumblr has shifted considerably post-2016 and Black users have become decidedly less visible or present (voluntarily or by way of harassment campaigns, account purges), esp. since 2020, a certain level of comfort to dismiss Black characters or media has resettled.

When The Old Guard came out, I was preoccupied with a film called Fast Color. It, alongside two other films (Captive State, Kin), had struck me as fairly intentional with their stories about Black characters. Fast Color's narrative about a Midwestern Black woman with seizures and the power to manipulate matter ended up being a gorgeous film about Black families, motherhood, and self-determination.

Fast Color had all the hallmarks of a word-of-mouth-sleeper hit under any other circumstances. But it fell to the wayside, and the director (Julia Hart) expressed discontent with the studio (Lionsgate), which refused to push and market the film specifically because (she believed) of its cast and narrative.

So soon after seeing Fast Color and jumping into The Old Guard, I couldn't help but feel like the film itself was at odds with putting Nile at the heart of the story versus Charlize Theron's Andy. And knowing Gina Prince-Bythewood had to advocate for Kiki Layne's role in the film just reaffirmed that feeling. It seemed easier for folks to feign love for Nile when she, as the sole central Black character in the movie, was surrounded by everyone else, whereas that was not possible with Fast Color, which gave non-Black and white audiences nothing to hide behind (unless you were a die-hard David Strathairn fan), if you follow me.

Fast Color going unilaterally ignored in movie fanspaces (outside of Black bloggers) and seeing the wildfire TOG got and still seeing, within that microcosm, how fans of Nile already had to shore up some kind of presence for her on this site/AO3 (even as people were saying it was an excellent film for "female representation"), reinforced that (as far as this website is concerned) folks saying one thing and doing another is par for the course.

At a certain point, it becomes exhausting to exist in a space that's designed to be intentionally hostile and drive you out by acting as if your observations of unconscious or intentional racism/biases are an unreasonable thing to bring to the front (or worse, advocating for state censorship).

There's a point where "being afraid of getting it wrong" becomes a permission structure for ignoring the character altogether. It's like concern trolling. I don't feel Nile is such an oblique (or "boring") character that she'd be any more challenging to render in fanfiction than Joe or Quynh, two pre-20th-century characters who require as much, if not more, regional research and a level of cultural sensitivity that TOG fandom clearly isn't incapable of. If anything, Nile should be the easiest character to write for bc she's American.

There's also a lot about the statement that reaffirms how whiteness "otherizes" Black folks and their culture. It's as if we're not human, we're not American, and we're incapable of being understood.

So, many people have simply given themselves permission to ignore her. I felt that not a week after the sequel debuted, browsing the tag casually. Everyone was making fairly astute - if not obvious - observations about the issues with the writing (certainly from a more informed place than me if I'm considering all the BTS talk I've seen). However, one thing that was consistently overlooked was the first thing that stood out to me during the initial viewing. That Nile was entirely reactionary and secondary in the film itself. The two moments, where she watches J/N fight and the bitter A/Q reunion, are such succinct examples of what happened to her character. She became what a lot of fics turn her into: An observer of characters most consider more interesting than her.

It wasn't until I visited Nile-centric TOG blogs that I even saw Nile-focused complaints about the film or any media featuring Kiki Layne. Outside of that, the most anyone was saying about her was, "shame there wasn't enough Nile in it" as if it was an episode of a show instead of a feature-length film where she stopped being the protagonist. There was a distinct lack of energy about how people noticed how small she became in the sequel compared to, say, how less explicit J/N's relationship became, how airbrushed Theron's face was, dropping a bridge on Booker, or how dirty A/Q had been done. So the lack of self-awareness regarding Nile belies a comfort with not considering her with the same weight as the rest of the cast.

[...]"And as someone who mainly started reading fic in the fandom a year or two after the movie came out it—thought it was mid and didn’t care for how Andy treated Nile but eventually thawed upon rewatches with friends and wanted to see how people were expanding on Nile and by extension Nile/Andy—going into the ao3 tag and seeing that it was a joenicky love fest was deeply disappointing. But not surprising. Having a canon m/m ship in a fandom, especially one with a yt guy in it, means everything else will take a backseat. And here it especially stinks because while everyone can do whatever they want, the historical papers and tomes and films people are taking in to write their nth crusade fic could be put to use expanding on the fandom as a whole. And yet. It all goes to worshipping at the alter of the white man and joe, sometimes, if the person happens to prefer him in the couple or wants to look #notracist. Not that I’m bitter lol But yeah once I noticed that I started filtering j/n out because even outside of the worship I’m one of the few who finds nicky painfully dull and the couple only okay. And of the two canon couples I find the women to be more interesting, despite Andy/Quynh being shafted in both movies. There’s enough chemistry, history, and tragedy to give it depth imo. Or that’s jsut my lesbian bias lol but I also just care more about women in this fandom and in general. Which is apparently novel in this fandom and many."

I've less of a problem with the abundance of J/N stories, versus what that abundance, repetition of Crusade fics, is actually saying about the fandom (who likes them) as a whole. Of the characters in the dynamic, I prefer Joe the most - primarily because he has more to offer as a character (specifically as the more emotionally verbose personality). Nicky, as a static/less interesting character, isn't necessarily a negative (for me) but, again, the preoccupation of whiteness that drives so much of the creation of J/N media in fandom elevates him to a point where it's hard to see the fervor for their relationship as something about both characters and not just a sexual obsession with Luca Marinelli.

(Fanficion focused on his other roles reflects this, where they disappear his romantic/platonic relationships with women and make his characters gay to pair them with Marwan Kenzari's characters, but still somehow make these stories about his characters and Kenzari's mere receptacles for their sexual fantasies for Marinelli.)

This is also something present in Andy/Quynh stories - or the stories where Quynh is just a character motivated by revenge, and those stories are typically preoccupied with torturing the male character(s) - as well. It becomes more about how Andy feels and less about Quynh as an individual or her perspective on her relationship with Andy. Is it worth saving? Can she live knowing that someone she loved abandoned her, etc?

I'm relatively late to the femslash scene (I've been here for ten years now). The f/f fanspace being a reflection of broader issues within fandom is something I'm either numb to or just see as something most female-dominated fandoms are unwilling to take accountability for. There is something to be said in that, even when the structure of femslash provides the foundation wherein stories are not just about women but a specific culture of romance or expression of love between women, patriarchal norms rear their head to regulate it to the background of what's usually their own narratives, which is deeply depressing.

And when criticisms of this bias arise, not unlike antiblackness, persons feeling personally attacked will shift from listening to behaving as if they're being persecuted at the Witch Trials. To that end, the common refrain that male-slash is more (favorably) transgressive or audience-friendly than femslash is so weird. Because it leans into this narrative where, if looked at without nuance, femslash in mainstream media is framed as uniquely fetishized for the gaze of men, which establishes this trap that male-slash is the more feminist venture for fandom, and however little you hear their voices, actual gay men tend to argue and feel otherwise.

(I'm toward the end of the J/N tag; the things I previously highlighted have simply become sharper in terms of who the fandom preferred or was preoccupied with. Another thing I've noticed is how Joe is often characterized as not caring that he was harmed during their captivity (a lack of self-worth). Or his anger toward Booker is all about Nicky, rather than his and Booker's relationship. It's very much like going through the Finnpoe tag and seeing all the 'Finn, who had his back sliced open, comforts Poe after [blank]' again lmao.)

To reiterate, the abundance of J/N stories reinforces the problem that remains unresolved or unacknowledged due to gender inequality and reactionary sentiment. And that's, "Why is f/f media seen as less than in fanspaces, even when it's the driving force of the material?" And part of me wants to blame the original film for not being as explicit with their relationship as they were J/N.

I definitely overestimated the fandom's preoccupation with their relationship vs. J/N based on my own preference for it, even when taking sexism and lesophobia and biphobia into account. Quality over quantity, but I was expecting Swan Queen or SuperCorp numbers, tbh. However, I suppose the advantage of those ships was a lack of competition and the presence of white or white-passing characters (Regina Mills).

Addendum (3/19/26): I don't think it's lesbian bias, I think there is a major problem within fanspaces where the preoccupation the gay relationships (canon or non-canon) versus lesbian is a real problem. One that argues that misogyny still drives a lot of the decision making in what becomes popular, and what is treated like an afterthought. Right now, in 2026, folks are trying to have the conversation about why [cis] women think projecting patriarchy and bioessentialism onto men via slash culture is somehow more revolutionary than confronting sexism of the media they read/watch with the women present in those stories. Why is erasing or minimizing women in favor of male-slash considered "a powerful way to deconstruct internalized misogyny just by the sheer shocking lack of gender norms", versus elevating those women and doing that deconstruction work through them and their stories?

2. Romancing the Nile

Romantic Nile/Andy never struck me as a possibility, partly because of how she initially treated Nile, and how adversarial their relationship is in the comic books. Nile in the comics is working with Andy and the others, her inexperience with immortality doesn't make her subordinate to Andy, and she has no real qualms with killing and violence unless its with how the Immortals rationalize it or treat each other (Booker and Andy shooting each other, Andy slaughtering Noriko's henchmen, Andy's past as a slaver so-to-speak).

It's very different from the film after it established a "life experience" gap between the two and makes Nile more reticent about killing and being broken to kill people in the army, and Andy being less dubious than her comic counterpart, setting the tone of what their relationship would be.

(I'm also personally less inclined to romantically ship someone if the relationship is portrayed as a mentor-mentee/paternal one (for example, Obi-Wan and Anakin), but that's me).

Other romantic connections for Nile, on the other hand? Nile is the "gender flipped" immortal warrior that features regularly in most fantasy stories. She has the allure and the mystery that should mean more than a few Nile/OFC or Nile/OMC-centered fics; I see it happening for Booker. But asexuality as a form of misogynoir is such an insidious form of antiblackness.

I'd argue that Nile being seen as a asexual or sexual person without specific attraction isn't entirely a majority position. More people don't write about her, and thus don't consider her sexuality or interpersonal relationships. She's just a reactionary tag-along. And if they're challenged on it, if they feel they need to provide an answer, most would likely react the same way that person you mentioned did. "I headcanon Nile as asexual" or "aro/ace". For those who do consider her sexuality, the limits are bound by (1) who the writer is interested in from the main cast (sans J/N), (2) an ability to consider Nile's sexuality or sexual gratification with, say, original characters.

Sapphic Nile's dynamics, where she is a physically and emotionally sexual character, are minimally with Andy (or, more rarely, Quynh, Celeste, Jay, and Dizzy). Heterosexual Nile has Booker or Copley, the former is the biggest ship to her name, and while that's problematized by the "Jerk Woobie Booker" phenomenon, that's typically where I've seen the most Nile-centric romance/smut narratives.

This is part of what I liked about Nile’s subplot with Mustafar King in Force Multiplied. It would’ve been easy to treat Nile just as an audience surrogate in the first volume and let her fade into the background of Andromache and her gang’s particular angst in the second volume. Instead, Nile has a life that’s loosely connected to the one she’s adopted, and everyone, except Andy, is content about not being included. Andy's projection of her own trauma with mortal romances (Achilles) rides the line of controlling and genuine fear for someone she considers essential to her. In that she exposes a lack of trust in Nile's decision-making (much like a mother who believes her experience trumps her daughter's agency).

Nile isn’t attached to the group's hip, she’s out there experiencing a re-contextualized life, and in this instance, she’s started a situationship with a man who isn’t far from her original lot in life (as an actor of the State), who is genuinely interested in her outside of information gathering. It’s not especially unique or star-crossed lovers, but it’s Nile living. All of it eventually leads to her ousting Andy and taking the lead of the group to continue the mission.

Andy/Quynh, as you said, carried so much of what makes the immortal angst what it is outside of Andromache's personal exhaustion with fighting, and not being able to find/save Quynh. Isolation, loneliness, and companionship. Most people are aware of the viability of their romantic angst, especially if J/N Iron Maiden AUs exist. It could be the Xena/Gabrielle of the 21st century, but that's me.

Going into the tag, I expected A/Q would at least match the output of J/N, who, as a couple, truly feel like a counterbalance (in the film) to the romantic angst of A/Q (esp. if you see Andy's determination to rescue both from Merrick as a form of amends for not being able to do the same for Quynh).

I was not expecting 70-to-30 pages vs J/N's 400+. Much of my perception of A/Q was shaped by who I was following at the time. I honestly assumed, without taking into consideration the norms of fandom (patriarchy, racism, and internalized misogyny) outside of the space I made for my dashboard, that it ultimately meant the opposite.

3. Perception and Depiction

"[...]With TOG fandom, some older fics do genuinely seem to care about Nile’s pov (like you I’ve only found one or two where she goes back to her family and a handful that have her reconnect with her family but don’t really explore why she decides to stay-I’ve written my own for Nile week this year, one of my first in the fandom and found that trying to untangle all that as well as her military involvement was complicated but I did try and difficult isn’t a barrier as people have literally learned Italian for ship fics lol) though a lot of it is her as an audience insert or a naive newbie who the others baby or ignore."

There's a definite distinction in POVs for Nile-centric stories. You can tell them apart based on what Nile's internal monologue is, or what's driving Nile as a character. The stories that compare and contrast her life before what she's potentially learning from others or doing on her own are (usually) a good rule of thumb. Stories where she's the last living immortal guiding a non-descript group of newbie immortals touch on this as well.

The opposite tends to have her simply observing the actions of Andy, Joe, or Nicky like a witness writing a secondhand biography. There's also a paternalistic streak to some stories, where Nile constantly introduces the immortals to things like "bath bombs" or other modern concepts that they've likely witnessed the debut of. (And it's like, they're immortal, not Dragonball-era Son Goku.) It's not (usually) that the quality of the stories is lacking, but to repeat: What/who gets attention and what doesn't is clear.

4. Two Immortals and Accountability

"Or, it’s book of Nile (a great if misleading name for a ship that I unfortunately don’t see the draw for) stuff that is sometimes Nile focused but often uses her as booker’s therapist while slamming the others for abandoning him, which always puzzled me because nothing in their on screen interactions ever gave instant love or loyalty on either side? And also he’s clearly in the wrong and doesn’t even apologize ever? Ship and let ship but HM lol. But using a character of color, especially a black woman to validate a yt one, especially a ‘bad’ character, is par for the course in fandom."

(Book of Nile is an OUAT-tier level ship name, and I'm kinda mad about it lmao.) In principle, I get the allure of Booker/Nile, but primarily from the standpoint of friendship. It's a dynamic that couldn't be possible unless she was the outperson of the immortal group. (Booker clearly sees himself as an outsider to some degree, self-pityingly so.) Both characters identify a relatability in each other that isn't available with Joe, Nicky, or Andy. However, the team's baggage isn't hers, and so I can see her communication with Booker (if she pursued it, as the sequel suggests she doesn't, likely out of respect for the others) as far less harried, but not out of ignorance, because of that.

But the collective idea that she'd be 100% "Team Booker" to the point where she'd not understand their decision is just an odd takeaway from "Nile wanted to let you off with an apology". Because it's so clearly borne from the desire to argue that what he did by double-crossing everyone wasn't that bad. "Nile isn't strung out about it, so why should everyone else be?" I think that undermines an interesting conflict that could arise between them, esp as Nile's relationship with the others develops.

I can also argue that stems from the constant, if not socialized, refrain of "forgiveness is divine" or "forgive and forget", that is encouraged in the same way as establishing boundaries and holding people accountable is considered harsh or cruel to the offending party. And I forget that people who go "no contact" with family members aren't exactly viewed as sympathetic people in a society prone to victim-blaming.

The sequel, having Booker treat what he did so cavalierly (then using Nile to facilitate his suicide), only compounds the idea that he wasn't all that remorseful for his actions. But before TOG2, I feel like not enough writers asked, "Why would Nile go to bat for, or start a romantic relationship with, someone like that?" Especially when you consider it took seeing Copley's wall of history for Nile to really put her trust in Andy and the group's manifesto.

To that end, Nile adopting the role of "forgive Booker" in N/B stories becomes less about a position she could potentially adopt based on her character, and more about how the writer uses Nile to argue their point.

These are adults, and Nile is not their babysitter. The refrain that holding Booker accountable is immature—that Nile is the "adult" in the situation who makes everyone get along or accept Booker—or endangering him further is odd. (It's like he said, "It's not like they can kill me." Booker can't harm [physically] himself any more than the others can, and it's on him to right his ship.)

People joke about putting everyone in the "get along shirt," but the stories often feel too infantilizing or abusive, for lack of a better word.

5. Nile the Once and Future Leader

"[...]I also see it with the Nile/andy fics which were my first foray into shipping fics in the fandom. Unless they’re just straight up smut there are few that don’t lean into the ‘ Andy is amazing and Nile can’t get enough of her ancient ass’ angle in the vein of joenicky 🙄. There’s actually the idea in most fics that aren’t ship focused, and it annoys the hell out of me. Especially when they start priming Nile as a successor after like a month with a team. Gives strong black women to me and I hate it, especially because she’s the youngest and the men are literally ancient warriors who would know better. The prevalence of that dynamic (how how obvious it was that Andy saw Nile as a baby in upon rewatch) actually made me ship andynile less, because it’s so rarely about her as a person and more what she means as Andy’s legacy. The few ones from Nile’s pov are pretty solid though."

I think the film's narrative is implicitly running with the idea that Nile is her successor, in a way that the comic book doesn't necessarily concern itself with, but still finds its way around to by virtue of Nile challenging Andy's previous actions (as instigated by Noriko) and taking control, and the others following her lead. Even the sequel originally toyed with the idea of Andy retiring and letting Nile take lead of the team now that she was mortal (see: queen-of-badomens post on early screenings).

I'm not necessarily against stories that frame Nile as Andy's apprentice, but that other aspect - where she's too new and in the company with two other immortals willing to carry on the mission without Andy - isn't given enough credence in stories. The "mission" isn't just Andy's, after all, and Nile at that point would still be finding her footing. And Andy isn't dying anytime soon, either, lol. That'd actually be an interesting story to read, honestly (Nile challenging Andy treating her like an heir before they've really developed a relationship.)

6. Explicit Romance vs. Subtext

"[...]As are the Andy/Quỳnh fics. In your review of the film you noted the lack of exploration of their dynamic in the second film and I agree. I started reading their fics about a month before the movie came out and there aren’t many—out of 13000 fics they have 1600 to jn’s 9000, and only 500 that are them as the sole romantic tag compared to jn’s 6000. Which again isn’t surprising as m/m ships take over and even in comic canon their relationship is underdeveloped but it does mean there’s a dire lack in terms of story variation and imagination—but there are a solid handful that explore Quỳnh’s anger and Andy’s betrayal in super nuanced, thoughtful ways. Which are my lifeblood as that ship, and mainly quỳnh herself have taken over a significant portion of my brain. I knew the second movie wasn’t going to give once they replaced Gina who reigned in the worst of rucka’s impulses, but it was truly dogshit."

Yeah, to some degree, I think the scarcity of A/Q stories means there are authors more focused on ideas or stories they feel probably wouldn't come to fruition outside their own purview. There's less of an inclination to flood their tag with constant fluff or retreads if you follow me. In the case of Quynh, a lot of stories (that aren't A/Q focused) are so focused on the "revenge" aspect of her arc that they often undersell or treat her heartbreak/pain as an afterthought.

Underdeveloped as Andy/Noriko is in the comics, there's no arguing what and whose the centerpiece is in the story by virtue of how Rucka positions both characters in Force Multiplied. There's no real competition outside of the Nile/Andy and Nile/Moose conflict on top of that (Booker is the damsel, Joe and Nicky handle the exposition bits of the story with Copley). If you remove the romantic element of Noriko and Andy, the story is less for it (at least I think so).

Compare that to the films, where Quynh and Andromache's relationship was originally just a friendship. Quynh had been romantically tied to Lykon in earlier versions of the story before they eventually exercised him from the narrative entirely.

Without the knowledge of the comics, you'd be hard-pressed to call Andy and Quynh's relationship subtext. On top of femslash being at a [gendered] disadvantage, newcomers wouldn't think to ask, "Are they together, or just friends?" I found myself asking that question when I first watched the film and then rewatched it.

And it's hard not to feel that Netflix's guard change and the growing re-ostracization of homosexuality is the driving force behind the lack of clarity, the lack of an explicitly romantic narrative that was afforded to J/N (because GPB and Rucka were in their corner. I do feel like if I pull on the string of this argument, I'll end up asking why the same fervor wasn't shown for A/Q.).

Because when you consider how explicitly queer Netflix's famously canceled (or short-lived) media was from 2020 to 2024, subtextualizing their relationship to the extent that they did is fairly criminal and a portent of bad times on the way.

7. The Devils You Know vs. the Devils You Don't

"Because how are they going to hijack Quynh’s story, give it to an yt woman (who slinks around smizing smugly and doing little else lmao) also the dismiss Nile as a character in her own right and not even make it good? Foul! Like you said, they could’ve done something interesting with Discord and Nile or even Discord herself as a selfish immortal but they just didn’t. Still, even with the shitty writing for andyquynh the relationship dynamic and chemistry worked for me ship and character wise. So I’m stuck here lol."

And that's the rub of it, isn't it? There's no salient reason, outside of poor writing/story management (studio whims/regime change mucking up the works), that Uma Thurman's role as Discord should've disrupted Quynh's narrative, Andy/Quynh, or meant that Nile took a backseat to... pretty much everyone. These are not diametrically opposed concepts or characters, especially when you consider Thurman's role (in the final product) is functionally "the devil you [don't] know."

What could be the story sets up a solid conflict. Discord does what Andromache couldn't: She finds Quynh's coffin and sets her free. If the point is that someone has to find Quynh vs. Quynh escaping on her own (like she did in the original script), what is the story trying to say about where this person succeeded and Andromache didn't? Did she look longer, or did she have better resources? The script could've easily established a transactional relationship between the two. Discord's pre-established loathing for humanity stokes Quynh's newfound resentment for it. And under the pretense of caring about her (and it could be up in the air on whether she does or doesn't). The time she doesn't seek out Andromache sharpens the pain and anger she feels from being left behind.

What kind of story does the film become in that case? How does that reshape Andy/Quynh, or Quynh's want to hurt the others, since the film makes Discord the international criminal instead of her? Because the most pressing question would be, "Why would Quynh help or ask Discord to help her at all?" It would have to be to her particular benefit and because of Discord's access to power.

In the film proper, what has Discord told her about Nile that gets her to say, "Just go with Discord. Give her what she wants"? Well, what does she want, Quynh? Because it clearly wasn't, 'she's mortal and you're the one who can change that'. If that were the case, I feel like Quynh and Discord would be opposed on Nile's fate (Discord sees her as a tool, Quynh sees her as a threat to Andromache).

When Quynh and Andy finally reunite, whatever Discord has done for Quynh never factors into how she contextualizes her pain. Discord's "aid" is never thrown in Andy's face, and Andy never counters with what Tuah warns her about. It's never mentioned at all. Quynh disparages the idea of fighting for humanity, but Andy doesn't do anything to make her case, just says, "You don't know what's changed, I can't leave them" (humanity or the other immortals?).

Her mortality never becomes a part of their conflict, never something that could tie her and Discord together. That kind of story shift alone is vital enough to wonder, "Would Quynh, angry as she is, care? Or would she see Andy's mortality as her becoming part of what she doesn't think is worth saving?"

Quynh doesn't even suspect that Discord has ulterior motives until she's been injured by Nile and left behind. And reasonably, Discord has no story reason to abandon her that's not external (telling the audience she's the final boss, not Quynh).

I don't think there's a version of TOG2 where Nile was ever the protagonist without GPB. But, again, taking Discord into account, does an actual story arc for Nile work? In the absence of Nile's comic arc (where Rucka means for her not to be the audience surrogate), whether as a literal adaptation or a reworked narrative to suit the original film, how does Rucka's idea (allegedly) of Nile being an immortal "destroyer" that can rob people of their immortality (ugh 🙄) work?

If TOG was always going to try and answer the "Immortal" can of worms, and TOG2's answer was an outside force vs interpersonal, how is that question answered with Discord as the antagonist? What would it be trying to say about the previous themes of the film?

Discord's intent/story has to be clear. She's (1) old enough, the "first", by proxy of remembering how it began (for her), who gave her the gift/curse. Because she thinks she's the only one, she narrativizes her own story and the story of the "destroyer". She meets Tuah, a recently immortalized stenographer from the 15th century. She tells him some version of her history, which sets him on the path to trying to answer the "why?" of immortality, while she feigns ignorance about it. Already disillusioned with humanity, what happens to Quynh and Andromache is the straw that breaks the camel's back. In the film proper, her goal is to turn Nile against the group (and support Quynh's vendetta against them) by distorting the truth.

Or (2) she's a mortal who wants her gift restored and learns, through Tuah, of some old wives' tale about an immortal who can give and take immortality (which could coincide with her dreams of Nile, who is dreaming of her), all to avoid the terror of death. Quynh's vendetta against Andromache, in this case, is a distraction she can use to separate the team from Nile.

Option (2) If the film plays it straight, Discord admits to Nile that she wants to be immortal again (bc, as one fic suggests, she's sick/dying). The character is a manipulator, so how does Discord make her case to Nile in a way that plays on her want to do good, but also benefits her? Does she use her family (surrender your immortality, return to your family), or the wears of immortality to do it? How does this reaffirm or shake Nile's belief that she and the other immortals are doing what's right? It's the inverse of Andy's story from TOG, effectively. An immortal who can't cope with being mortal/doesn't want to die vs. the newborn immortal (give or take a few years) who sees its effects as long-term change in the world, even if she doesn't necessarily think it's required to do it.

Option (1) Discord's spiel wasn't a farce. She's the oldest of this particular group of immortals and was given immortality by the "destroyer" ("the first" immortal as far as she knows). Before they die, the "destroyer" tells her, "it's always the last", and Discord doesn't understand what that means. The enormity of the gift becomes a curse. She feels she was never given a choice, and to that end, the others that followed weren't either. In observation, Discord truly believes Andromache is leading immortals all astray by "meddling in human affairs" and to certain death (exposure). Quynh is the capstone.

Discord doesn't help Andromache, splits from Tuah when he does. She looks for Quynh, convinced that if she finds her, she can turn her against Andy and the others. She loses her immortality a year before Andromache, and without it, Discord feels she cannot carry out her mission. Humanity isn't redeemable. Quynh's desire for revenge lays the groundwork to act on it, and she needs Nile to lose faith in the mission.

There is so much you can do with a 9,000-year-old immortal who claims to have met the Prophet Isa (Jesus), lost her faith in people when she learned of the injustice in his death. Uses that broken faith to challenge Nile ("The Good Christian Girl") with a contradiction of his mission. That Andromache's meddling in "human affairs" will do more harm (for them) than good. All while endorsing the mindset that killed him, and perpetuating harm (amassing weapons, working with organized crime, and other imperialist ventures) to end humanity.

Secret Third Thing (3) - something I was playing around with - Discord is an immortal from Crimea who suffered captivity and enslavement under Andromache's people, and all of her actions are about tearing down the idea that Andromache is good, or can do good, given her history. That random flashback where she's choking the dude out is maybe one [failed] attempt Discord tried to make on Andromache's life, Callisto style, but Andy doesn't learn that until the end of the movie. Discord recalls the law of the Scythians/Kurgans followed, and informs Nile about "Law 282". Regardless of whether Andy was a participant (or too young to know), it rattles Nile's faith in Andy/the mission. Ultimately, all of this culminates in a message that "past suffering does not justify another's harm in the future" (a concept that will also inform Booker and Quynh's narrative).

Anything of the above could've sold Discord as a solid antagonist. Instead, on top of a rudderless plot, the revelation that Nile and a 9,000-year-old immortal share an "Adam and Eve" connection, down to the "spare rib" birthmark, means nothing.

If it had to be six months after the first film, something as simple as "Nile finding her place/purpose in the mission" (maybe it's not through violent means exclusively, but something else) could've been the driver of the film, alongside "Quynh seeks retribution against her comrades for being abandoned." Discord, as the person who means to pit these two women against Andromache, is the intersection where those two roads would naturally meet.

It makes even less sense that Discord is immediately hostile and threatening Nile's group if she's trying to get her to come to her side, or finagle her way back to immortal status. What could've been interpersonal veers to an external crisis instead. Discord's potential dynamic with Quynh, Andy, and Nile takes a backseat.

And with Tuah, he could've been a fantastic commentary on immortal isolationism. Perhaps, because of the violence expressed by humanity and even Discord herself, he was wary of people. Still, he expressed it through withdrawal and preoccupation with the written history of humanity's romanticization of immortals (and Andromache's exploits as seen through dreams/contact, but not necessarily tracking the cause/effect like Copley), rather than violence.

I know Tuah saving Andy, and dreaming of the others, but not vice versa, and Andy keeping him a secret irked some. But I liked the idea that the "dreams" are not universally shared (Rucka suggests as much with Lykon claiming not to dream of Noriko in the comics).

I like that there'd be immortals disinterested in being with their contemporaries. Instead of a walking Wikipedia that demystifies the premise, Tuah's relationship with Discord, and even his relationship with history, could've easily been a segue for using the Copley character where he was best suited, and another reflection of what immortality does to a person's morals and beliefs (for good or ill).

The entire movie is a patchwork of ideas and creative decisions that leave almost every character in a limbo where they have no presence, journey, or personality. They are truly in service of things that happen from moment to moment, versus driving the action or the narrative.

Addendum (12/13/25): I recently came across a post by queen-of-badomens, who claims to have been to multiple early screenings of the sequel, and it's not great.

Discord was originally a woman named Cordelia De Briger, an immortal from the 1500s (same as Tuah). She was a midwife who was the ye olden equivalent of a feminist. She protected or helped women and children, and was close friends with Tuah, who (as I guessed) is a natural recluse or introvert. Depending on the version, she goes to meet with him and says she plans on visiting "The New World" (Turtle Island).

Somewhere down the line, she learns a child she helped bring into the world aided in the genocide of the Native Americans, and is an immortal like her. The film apparently never comments on what happens to this guy. But, stricken with grief, Discord throws herself into a volcano (like Tom Hanks in Joe vs. the Volcano).

She's completely destroyed, but a single surviving cell allows her entire body to regenerate. Consumed by rage, she makes it her life's mission to find a way to kill Immortals, and destroy humanity. Along the way, she forms her own cadre of immortals (one of whom stalks the group, and eventually comes to blows with Nile). In most of these versions, she's still an immortal and that impacts her fight with a re-immortalized Andromache, which was a bit bloodier. That's fine, her being mortal doesn't make sense as a plot point unless the story planned to keep Andromache that way as well (imho).

None of the versions QOBO talks about does anything with her relationship with Nile or Quynh. With Quynh, their working together seems largely undefined, nothing to do with shared ideology or even a possible relationship. Discord talks about how much Quynh suffered in one version, but that's as far as their interaction goes. With Nile, there's always a conversation between them (once outside a church and in the rest of the versions inside the church), and in at least one of them, Discord asks Nile to join her group.

In one version of a post-credits ending, Nile wakes in Discord's headquarters, and Discord asks her to come and "meet the others". In another, they somehow end up at Nile's family house, and Discord has somehow wormed her way into their good graces, and may intend to use them as leverage against Nile.

Her character is ultimately meant to represent the opposite of Andromache's group. Where their good deeds create a positive ripple effect, Discord's good deeds (midwifery, protecting women and children) seem to do the opposite. Basically, everything she touches turns to shit. No rhyme or reason, bad outcomes just seem to happen from her actions specifically.

Part of me wouldn't be bothered by this if it didn't feel like a value judgement was being made, versus a commentary on the unpredictability of life and your place in cause-and-effect. Especially when you consider she was doing community work and helping people through non-violent means vs. Andy's state sponsored guns-for-hire.

But, as with the rest of the film, Discord and Tuah were butchered into nothing characters. If they kept the original intentions with the character, it would've bumped the film up to just passable. But as a character, Discord's presence still hinges on the "Nile can take away immortality" subplot. Still demands the script answer for that nonsense, and in no version that this person watched did they even bother.

8. Noriko and Quynh vs. the Dragon Lady

"But yeah andyquynh are often background in the fics that centre the men and Quỳnh’s return is handwaved so they’re either blandly happy or they’re constantly contentious (especially in au’s) and Quỳnh is cold, a fandom characterization that I don’t doubt is steeped in anti Asian racism but still irritates me because nothing we saw of her of the first movie gave ice queen. She was always laughing with Andy and even joked about burning alive but exploring her would require the fandom to care about the women and they simply don’t."

If we're being honest, on one hand, I do think it's a genuine effort to explore how a human might be after dying repeatedly in the ocean. I can't imagine someone emerging from that emotionally or mentally stable, or entirely rational beyond their own wants.

On the other hand, the "cold and calculated" characterization of Quynh in many fanfics, primarily J/N or Booker-centric stories, is almost certainly derived from the comic books rather than the film(s). Rucka's own biases concerning East Asian women, unfortunately, encourage the use of harmful stereotypes in the fandom.

Noriko (Japanese), like Ada Wong (Chinese American, Resident Evil), is a flat-out Dragon Lady stereotype. As a character, she isn't dissimilar to Lady Shiva (Cassandra Cain's mother) and Talia al'Ghul (Grant Morrison's run) from the Batman comics. Cold, calculating, manipulative, violent, and hypersexual. To top it all off, Noriko is also a crime boss connected to multiple syndicates and an advocate of the genocide of humanity (like Ras al'Ghul in Batman Begins). Common Dragon Lady characteristics.

It's not necessarily a puzzling choice that the fandom has collectively agreed this also suits Quynh, considering the source (Rucka). The five-year gap and Force Multiplied likely fomented the characterization in fandom. It does, however, run counter to the portrayal of Quynh (Vietnamese) in the film(s).

Quynh and Noriko aren't the same character. The only thing they have in common is that (1) they know/love Andromache, (2) they drowned at some point in the past, and aren't happy about being abandoned (though I feel Noriko doesn't have a leg to stand on in that regard). Outside of that, how Ngo's background (nationality and ethnicity) influenced Quynh's story in both films makes her distinct enough that AO3 conflating the two with a tag is tone-deaf imho, but not unsurprising (given the site's history of anti-Asian bias).

Fics characterizing Quynh the way Noriko was in Force Multiplied tends to lead the author(s) to retroactively rewrite who Quynh was before her imprisonment into an exceptionally violent person (an overemphasis of the "viper" comment that Joe makes about her fighting skills). And, you're right. Most of the time, this version of Quynh never seems to be written with Andromache in mind, but rather how much the author can use her to harm Nicky (especially), Booker, or Joe as a sort of punishment for being at odds with each other. Nile and Andy are often relegated to supporting or reactionary characters in these narratives. Compare that to A/Q stories that prioritize the emotionality of these women —and sometimes Nile —over harming the male characters. The goals and aims are very different.

(Another thing I've noticed is that in "Iron Maiden" AUs where Joe or Nicky are the ones accused of witchcraft, one or the other explicitly condemns Quynh and Andy for not continuing the search and or exile themselves from the group. Their anger toward their family is a huge feature, whereas it seems to be a given that, when Andy stops searching for Quynh, she'll always extend forgiveness to Nicky and Joe, or simply never blame them for not wanting to search for Quynh any longer. A long-winded way of saying J/N are allowed to be angry, and Andy's anger, if it's a focus of the story, is considered cruel or unreasonable.)

I ran into a series that committed wholeheartedly to the bit of making her the vengeful dragon lady of a story where she forces the group to treat her (and Booker) 'like family' (as punishment) after she buries Joe alive and withholds his whereabouts (ransoming the location to make sure she's treated well). At some point, she sexually assaults Nicky somewhere down the line, yet the story ends with them all making amends with each other. Interestingly enough, Andromache is framed as the kind-hearted one in the story to accommodate Quynh's violence and hypersexuality (she was constantly coming on to Joe and Nicky, fetishizing them. Asking Booker if he ever fucked Nicky, bc she wanted to, and had fucked Joe). It was the intersection of previous grievances that left me upset.

Even with how much the sequel minimizes Quynh's role as the central antagonist, the film effectively conveys her anger and pain without portraying her as a Dragon Lady. And it does this by making Discord the embodiment of imperialism. (At least I think so.) The problem is that, like the film itself, Quynh's anger is aimless. She's angry at Andromache, but what does she intend to do about it? The film's answer is to let Discord handle everything without question.

She's heartbroken about being abandoned, over being de-prioritized in favor of humans and the mission. Still, outside their fight in "the place where [Andy] can always find her", Quynh's actions against humanity aren't of her own making. She is very much a pawn in someone else's machinations.

Still, even that could've been salvaged if the point was not about helping Andromache save the others or feeling necessarily remorseful about her intent to harm them, but to put her own machinations on hold to attack Discord and handle her own vengeance another time.

9. Black Men, Exaggeration and Other Storytelling Avenues

"And you’ve said it all with the treatment of black men in the fandom (I actually didn’t realize keane’s actor was black but i have seen tags of fics where he’s a main character that do exactly what you said and actually recently accidentally read one—didn’t check the tags—where he was part of the team but also a sexually vile brute). And now it makes sense as to why he’s characterized that way. Nasty. I also mostly agree about Copley but as someone who doesn’t care for him as a consistent member of the team, I don’t doubt that his dismissal is rooted in racism but I also think he’s exactly where he should be, as in tech support and nothing else. Because the less cia the better and also he is boring to me. And mortal. The second movie bringing him into the fold was baffling because I never once thought ‘Copley should go on missions’ lol like that’s a mortal so a huge liability. Andy too, but at least she’s got 6000 years of experience. And I’m of the same mind about Lykon (the rip one liners in fics makes me laugh) but I’ve never been too sad to see him sidelined because, again, lesbian bias, but the few fics that do centre him literally place him as inthe middle of andyquynh’s relationship and well, no thanks lol. It’s not everyday a man is there and after recent news about the actor I’m not too sad to see him sidelined. Plus I’m a firm lesbian Quỳnh truther so the less male inference there the better for me personally lmao"

Addendum (12/13/2025): Actor Michael Ward, who portrayed Lykon and is best known for his role in Top Boy, was charged with two counts of rape and three counts of sexual assault. But Lykon isn't his actor (and folks can imagine someone else as Lykon). If we're going by those metrics, I'd argue most of the cast is worthy of condemnation just for associating with Netflix, and their characters worth sidelining. (Uma Thurman is a Zionist, Marwan Kanzani starred in Zionist propaganda, Charlize Theron has not spoken out about the genocide in Palestine despite being an explicit benefactor of the South African Apartheid. Those are just the ones I know about).

Keane's actor, Joey Ansah, is of British/Ghanaian descent. I recognized him from the third Bourne film (The Bourne Ultimatum). I didn't expect to see as much of Keane as I did in fics. But, reading TOG material from the last five years, Joe and Nicky's kidnapping has been elevated to a sort of "They Hit the Pentagon!" event, which exaggerated his presence in fic narratives in a way I don't think most Bond henchmen get in that fandom.

But Keane being characterized as a sexual brute, obsessed with violating the white man, is more a commentary on the writer's biases than what the character represented in the film, since he basically becomes an original character. Y'all could've gone in so many direction's with his character, and you decided "rapist" was goal. It's such loser behavior.

I've seen the gun-in-mouth moment being called an allusion to rape/sexual assault, and that's just not something I agree with, and am incredibly wary of. Because I saw that kind of talk with the interrogation scene with Poe Dameron in The Force Awakens, a character yt fandom took particular glee in torturing bc "Poe Dameron hurts so prettily" <_<. The Keane/Nicky fight scene is a retread of this, imho.

And, yeah, Copley's a fed, but as a character who is part of the story's catalyst, he's not without merit as someone worth exploring in stories. I'm neutral on whether he should be their tech guy (exclusively) versus someone out on the field. He can do both (but the og film emphasizes that his strength is data collection), and the sequel could've had him alternating roles. However, in fanfiction, he's little more than the help. His story has substance that, if the fandom were invested, could be explored in greater depth regarding, well, history/world building. (I came across a fantastic story that detailed his research and speculation into what he found in the first film. Very fun, esp in terms of creative flair.)

The same can be said of Lykon. He's this character that was completely cut from the film and features in the script as the lover of Quynh, friend of Andromache. He's someone Quynh explicitly grieves over (with Andromache as her rock). But as a result of his no longer being a white Greek man from the time of Alexander, the unlikely chance that there was ever going to be a sequel (a fluke, truly), his Blackness makes him invisible to 'transformative works' in the same way Nile is often made subservient to the non-Black cast and her more aggressive or forward personality from the comics is completely ignored. To that end Quynh/Lykon/Andy is performative recognition of his place in the early version(s) of the script, like most poly ships in fanspaces are when they involve a Black character.

And I can understand being drawn into something for one particular aspect (I'm like that with Highlander. I love Connor and his story, but I don't much care for anything else about the series or other movies, except for his mentor-mentee relationship with Duncan). However, upon re-watching the first film, reading the comics (back-to-front), and seeing the sequel, I'm not entirely attached to one thing or character. Lykon is a story in his own right. Achilles, in the current political climate, has prompted me to refresh my knowledge of the history of what are ostensibly my ancestors. (It certainly has me wanting to write something for TOG about Nile, Lykon, and Achilles.)

Copley and Keane are more restricted by their mortality and their narrative roles, and I genuinely don't feel like I would have much to say about Keane if it weren't for fandom's dogged determination to turn him into a racist stereotype in so many of their stories.

(Bc I find it incredibly odd that in the complaints for TOG2, a lot of people seem to treat the Meta character like she was anything more than a throwaway henchman that got clocked, dismissively so, by Nile, by suggesting she be the next baddie. But that merely reinforces what I was saying earlier: Fandom can and will turn nothingburger characters into something more important than they are through headcanon. The stipulation, of course, is that they have to be white.)

Regarding them, I'm coming from a different direction than you did when you pointed out the dearth of storytelling opportunities that were otherwise ignored in favor of multiple J/N Crusade fics. There are avenues the fandom has open to them to explore the ideas of the film (or the comics) beyond the shipping angle. But their explicit "otherness" as Black men, not dissimilar to Nile, and fandom's proclivity for whiteness keep fandom from engaging with them like the other characters.

I'm speaking primarily as someone more interested in narrative vs. shipping (I don't know how else to word that without sounding disparaging. It's a convo I've had with friends about how fandom tends to approach media like a paper doll to dress up original ideas/characters of their own, but not necessarily being invested in the subject for its own merits, if you follow me.)

10. Riddance to Rubbish

[...]"And to the lack of fix its or canon exploration wrt Discord in of two minds. On the one hand I think the fandom was already dying and the shittiness of the second film only made people scatter instead of re-emerge (esp some jn shippers who were rightfully annoyed at the way they did them but also strangely silent on the way andyquynh got shafted because to me that was the actual tragedy, reducing the heart of their relationship to basically acquaintances while we at least knew jn were together but over all with the current political climate it’s a loss for gays in general) so there isn’t a lot of fic being produced anyway. At least not super intricate ones, which I understand because the whole Discord thing is so stupid that trying to untangle it in a way that makes sense is rough and in trying to write my own fic has made me just go fuck it and handwave the bullshit away. It is just so sloppy and transparent as a way to force uma in there and not to tell any real story that it doesn’t seem worth it to me. Plus Nile questioning Andy’s motives is fascinating but I also think it could be done while keeping in the first movie’s canon. Without making Nile the immortal poison for no reason. So the ‘Discord is a liar and also a mortal that can easily be killed’ rewrites haven’t bothered me too much because imo it’s what she deserves lol"

That much I can understand, especially regarding fandom hemorrhaging. Things peter out, and a bad outing can kill momentum like nothing else. I distinctly remember how it was for me when I was still preoccupied with Pacific Rim and kept up with the production details.

Then, I withdrew the moment the final product came out because it was bad, and I didn't care to try to fix or entertain what-ifs. Loathed the new characters, particularly the girl they cast to replace Mako (though I understand scheduling and etc only allowed them Rinko Kikuchi for a brief time, etc) and Stacker Pentecost's out-of-nowhere lovechild <_<.

At the end of the day, there was a conscious decision on Netflix's part not to put its best foot forward. Uma Thurman and Charlize Theron's professional relationship, or even Theron's level of influence on the sequel as producer, shouldn't have contributed to (part of) this mess.

I could argue, comfortably, that Theron asking Thurman to join was her whiteness prioritizing itself over what attracted people to the original movie. You wanted to work with a contemporary, but then undermined yourself and the other female co-stars (Ngo and Layne). But who knows?

I know I'm in the minority, but I don't think Discord or Tuah are bad characters so much as mismanaged characters in a movie full of mismanaged characters.

"Wow this was a dissertation! Didn’t mean to get so into it but ever since the second movie came out and quỳnh bewitched me lmao I’ve been apparently itching to talk about fandom racism /misogyny and you’re literally the only one who I’ve seen lay it all out so plainly and with interesting opinions to boot!"

No, dissertate away! I really enjoyed reading your thoughts, especially since you are more familiar with the minutiae of the fandom than I am.

Thank you again for your response. This was really engaging.