hiii gg! (i still don't know ur name 😔) what's the difference between sidereal and tropical? im a libra rising 6° sidereal and scorpio rising 1° in tropical.
Hey there (tis Nita but gg is fine too!! skdnfj) 💕💕💕 I’ve been saving this ask for a while and I finally have time to talk about it now!! 💕💕💕💕
[Side-real v Tropical ?? Whats that and What do?? ]
🚫long post 🚫
This is really really stripped down and basic but lemme jus explain a really quick zip up of some stuff
I’m going to skim over alot of details, and by no means am I an expert on this. So please read with your discretion
I’m jus gonna give you a real quick run down of the basics oki 💕
Hmm how to do this.. ok so let’s start for beginner beginner and go forward ok?
Beginners, hello! 💕 Today we’re gonna talk about 2 sets of zodiac (same signs just… how should we categorize/where does the start actually start) – that you might or might not know about yet! 💕
When I say ‘sets of zodiac’— today we’re going to consider the 12 signs. Just the 12 signs. And where it starts. Simple yes?
Questions we might be asking today: how do we have 12 signs?? (and consequently: Is there more?) and also ‘what do you consider to be the ‘real’ zodiac?’
For most people who started learning western/modern astrology, you’ll probably start off with using the Tropical system– which is the default nowadays and what astro sites usually use!
Let’s learn a little about the Tropical system then?? What about it?? What it do??
Tropical Astrology
Tropical Astrology is probably the one most beginners tend to start out using, most people don’t realize maybe because it’s automated on most astro sites and generators nowadays. But there is an option where you can ‘check’ what kind of Zodiac set you’re using:
Like here, you can see on the left it says ‘zodiac’ and it’s usually set at ‘tropical’.
In our really long history of astrology through the eras, we’ve transformed and evolve, shift and made things as we’ve come along. It’s still happening today too, but Tropical zodiac we align our Aries (the start of the Tropical zodiac) to when Spring begins (transform/shifts and ‘begins’ or carries through into spring from Pisces -> Aries).
We might’ve heard how cardinal signs are the ‘start’ of each astronomical seasons (Aries- Spring, Capricorn- Winter, Cancer - Summer, Libra- Fall) carrying the solstice and equinox of each one. The year (12 months) can be split into 3 months, 3 months of which we’re supposed to be in ‘each season’💕
Thus the 12 signs are also split into 3 modes, with the elements of each sign falling onto different modes as each other. Creating a certain hierarchy and dynamic, falling into place. The ‘start’, the ‘fixed’ and the ‘end/transformation’ (self, social, transcendent) of each reaction/behaviour in our signs.
(Taurus/Leo/Aquarius/Scorpio are smack dab in the middle of their ‘season’ before they shift/transform into the mutable signs, that adapts and changes.. getting ready for the new season again)
With the tropical, because Aries is always aligned with the Spring Equinox whenever the Spring Equinox is-- that’s when Aries is supposed to start. It changes, so it’s nice to consider how the person who considers themselves a ‘sun cusps’ of something can figure out which sign they’re were born in according to their specific year (y know, not really a fixed date since we got Aquarius early this year as well)
And ok, that’s fair and good. But what about the stars? And this is where the mayham begins.
The Mayham
The thing about it is, the idea that the first degree of Aries also coincides with the beginning of spring can be like, yeah ok that’s good and true bc it’s seasonal and not ecliptical (aka like, we don’t have to consider the foot of Orpheus being in the way of our ecliptic plane and thus complications over that. But also i’d like to remind us that astrology wise: tropical or side-real are both equally relevant and important and shouldn’t be dismissed)
We can feel the affect of how that might not always be the case though (ugh climate change and global warming but that’s human factor and I’m picking fights with the wrong thing here).
Climate wise, some sides are having longer winter, longer summers than what was preceded 1000 years ago. Astronomical season vs Meteorological seasons. So should we go with season?? or Stars?? What is the truth?
(also for those of you who are curious about meteorological seasons, it’s like how the start of the season should be at the first day of the month. So the start of spring is essentially March 1st… running to May 31st. Clean, easy, cut and set.)
Who even came up with the idea of 0/1st degree of Aries = Spring? It’s mr. Claudius Ptolemy (1 BCE). Our favourite Greek astronomer who saw that Aries Vernal Equinox coincide with the Spring back then.
What we didn’t know however, is that back then the side-real and tropical coincides together. The earth ‘wobbles’ a little through the century (although Mr Ptolemy did apparently know that— but the 21st century will have to deal with it and figure out what we wanna use now, instead of him sdkfjn)
The ‘start’ of Aries shifts. Not coinciding with the ecliptic. At first it was aligned, so no problemo. But after people started dying and years have passed (centuries) we start to notice that the ‘start’ of the Tropical zodiac is now 25 degrees later than the Side-real zodiac (what the sky says/what the season says)
(So to answer your question: if you look at your side-real you’ll probably find that you might’ve moved back one sign. In all aspect, so with a Tropical Scorpio ASC you’re now a Side-real Libra ASC)
The degrees gets added a little more bc of the wobble (or ‘precession of equinox’)… so let’s say its 25 degrees now… 1 (or 1.4) degree is added every 72 years or so (the ‘precession/wobble’) until it becomes 26 degrees different later (and so on)
Equinox?? Tf??
For those who wanna know what that feels like… The Spring Equinox is essentially– for those who lives around the tropics, This is the time we all begin to suffer from heat (which will get worse and maybe we’ll be lucky for chances of rain). And for those who are upper/lower begins to have better weather. Congrats.
The wobble that the Earth goes through (I think it’s called the ‘Axial Precession’ and ‘precession of equinox’) causes deviation in our we measure the ecliptic. Instead of looking at the ‘declination’ of the Sun in accordance to Earth (our earthling ego is so big) we now base it around the Sun’s ‘ecliptic/celestrial longitude’ instead.
(— also on that topic you can also check ‘Chandler’s Wobble’ as well!)
The ‘precession’ gets longer, to skip the details and not confuse you, let’s just say because the Earth wobbles – our Tropical system and Side-real system starts to differ.
How? Why? What is a side-real?? We defined tropical as the 1st degree of Aries coinciding with the start of Spring. So what is side-real?
Side-real
Is a little more based on Constellation Zodiac. Think of us learning how to read constellations. Basically, our ancestors have noticed that our Earth, the Sun, Moon and 5 other planets are moving through the sky with a very specific routes in their travels.
The observable stars and planets that we see scattered across our night skies makes up the visible ‘constellations’. The ones that coincides with the planets– the ones that the planet moves through, are the ones that we ‘count’. Whilst the ones that are just visible/there– are the ones that we don’t.
So technically, imagine if you were looking up at the sky. And you can see Mars travelling into this bish of a star again. You go ‘oh its Taurus season, it’s happening again ugh’. That’s what it’s like to live with fixed stars skjnksn
That’s a little off, but to help you out a little the path that these stars/planets travels to (the specific path) is called the ecliptic. It’s like how our sun has an ecliptic and sees the paths in which these constellation/stars move above in our sky. A little trippy, kinda weird. But also really really cool huh (think of the gif above of things just rotating along it’s axis and spinning, a little trippy huh)?
The side-real zodiac is based more on the constellations, these sets of ‘fixed stars’ that travels through our ecliptic and what we can see/observed. Because it’s not based on the equinox– the seasons, our environment and how it affects us as humans– the side-real is often regarded as the more ‘astronomical’ or the two.
Around the 5BCE (i think) the Mesopotamia starts to create a ‘standardized’ zodiac for side-real (or jus the zodiac since the hellanistic era is when things really starts to boom up and shift around) — technically some stars are smaller than others. But they decided that they’re gonna give each stars equal segments and make them look like they’re the symbolic representation of the heavens instead (poetic and also really cool, y know like why everything looks like a circle on the chart anyways– also the start of decans, which is really neat too!)
So let’s… regroup a little.. That was a lot. Let’s give you a little tl;dr summary to work with:
Side-real zodiac would mean Aries ‘starts’ (1st degree of Aries) 25 days before the Equinox (currently)
Tropical isn’t based on the constellations/fixed stars (like side-real) but rather the Equinox and Solstice themselves (Aries ‘starts’ on the Spring Equinox)
Side-real is based on the constellations, and the celestial ecliptic. Whilst Tropical is based on the seasons, how it influences us.
You remember how I mentioned Tropical dates for the Sun sign? How Aries is March 21st - April 20th? With Side-real, it’s completely normal to have a different Sun sign Zodiac. So don’t freak out 💕
Right, that was a lot… so essentially what we’re dealing with here is two sets of zodiac. One that’s based on Season and one that’s based on Constellation/Fixed-stars.
Which one do you choose?
Well… for me, personally, I just go with both? Learning both can be helpful. Plus there’s so much history behind both of them that it’s really good to balance and use both in my studies.
You might’ve heard of the debate with the star Orpheus that popped up. It’s more of an argument with the side-real part, where people say ‘hey if we’re going by the ecliptic then shouldn’t Orpheus that is between Scorpio and Sagittarius be counted? As the 13th sign in the zodiac?’
That’s another topic all together. But anyways. Which one is more accurate which one is wrong– well neither? Just because they’re different instruments, doesn’t mean they won’t end up reaching similar conclusions. It’s just a matter of what you’re using them for, or how you’re utilizing them.
(Also im skimming a lot of the details and debate on stuff, a lot of the argument might center around y know— basing it on stars instead of season. But also what do when feets of stars dangle within our ecliptic. Lotsa argument, debate and stuff on how the earth works in relation to our gravity, space, the Moon as well. Tropical vs Side-real. But y know. Both systems are good and valid it’s the more technical stuff that differs.)
Tropical and Side-real??
Some people feel more at ease and comfortable with side-real, and that’s cool. Some people prefers tropical, and that’s cool too. None of these sets of instruments are ‘wrong’ because the dance of the seasons that Tropical brings and the constellation star-path that Side-real brings are both valuable and of importance???
One thing to remember for those is that Vedic astrology might not always be the same as side-real. Whilst Vedic astrologers may use side-real zodiac, the set of instrument themselves depends from people to people (vice versa with Western astrology with Tropical, you can use side-real. But it’s not Vedic astrology. Does that make sense?)
These zodiac sets are tools, zodiac instruments. How you play them differ from people to people (Vedic astrologers and Western astrologers) whether you’re a traditional astrologer, or a modern one. Whether you’re a Brazilian Vedic astrologer, or an Indian Vedic astrologer. How you play these instruments differ. So that’s a little something on… that.
Ayanamshas
One last thing about side-real astrology I think…. is that the ‘start’ of something in the Ayanamshas.
When you clicky the ‘side-real’ zodiac option it shows you a drop down list of ayanamshas to choose from (astro.com) The most popular one is ‘Fagen/Bradley’ and ‘Hindu/Lahiri’ – doing a lil bit more research on this might be good for you, since y know. People disagree on a lot of things
(also you can use whole signs for this, since y know. it makes your life a little easier.)
I think that’s?? All I have to say for now?? For further research y know the Thema Mundi and learning about the Dendara, History of Astrology in general might be nice to get to know too. I’ll link my sources now:
Ayanamshas - Astro.com
Side-real and Tropical: What is Real? - Real Astrology
Tropical, Side-real and Tropical Zodiac - Horoscopic Astrology Blog
The Thema Mundi - Horoscopic Astrology Blog
The Western Tropical, Vedic Sidereal or Nakshatras? - Star Wheel Astrology
The Different Zodiacs used in Astrology - Star Wheel Astrology
Western Side-real Astrology - This ones more Fagan/Bradley based.
Podcast: Tropical vs Sidereal | Kenneth Browner | Vic DiCara Dendera (YT video)
Babylonian Star Lore - Gaven White (*change the end of the url link to the different signs)
Wikis: Chandler Wobble | Axial Precession | Equinox | Declination of the Sun | Axial Tilt | Ecliptic Co-ordinate System |
Astronomical Season and Meteorological Seasons
Oh right I forgot to actually answer!! Aaaaahmmm if you count back 25 degrees currently from your Tropical placements, you’ll get your Side-real placements. So to answer why your Scorpio shifted to Libra, it’s like that bc it’s currently 25 degrees apart right now. 💕 But yeah again, the technicalities of it depends on what ayanamshas you use! 💕