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Mike Thornton MP: My part in his BBC Radio Solent appearance.
After I blogged about our first year of bedroom tax, I was asked to appear on BBC Radio Solent to talk a little bit about our experience of it, our exemption, the fact that there might still be people who don't realise that there are a number of reasons why they might not have to pay, and a little bit about the policy itself.
The show will be on the iPlayer until Sunday 13th April, or thereabouts, and you can listen to it here. My section starts at 41m30s, and Mike Thornton's around 1h41m15s.
In the course of the discussion the host, Julian Clegg, and political correspondent Jessica Parker, talked a bit about the recent BBC report that found the policy was not meeting its aims for reducing under-occupation or overcrowding, and a rise in the number of people now in rent arrears for the first time.
We also discussed the Work and Pensions Committee report into housing costs under welfare reform. which was released on the 2nd April 2014. I've been over the recommendations of the policy in slightly more detail in my translation into human of the recommendations pertinent to the social sector size criteria. The key points of the committee report were outlined by Mike Thornton himself, who appeared later on BBC Radio Solent to answer my points:
He explains it like this: " The Committee feels we should widen the area for exempt people to those in receipt of DLA - not just someone who someone to look after them, but who needs extra help... also for people who are willing to move but can't find anywhere 'suitable' to move ".
The Committee also recommended exemptions for people with adapted properties, and that because the bedroom tax doesn't measure rooms, a proper study of room sizes should be done before people are deemed to be under-occupying. These failings have been at the heart of the policy since before it was introduced on the 1st April 2013, and the vulnerable people the Committee wants to exempt have already had to pay for a year, or worse still have already been forced to move from their homes.
Recommending change isn't good enough, and a commitment needs to be made that people who have been forced to pay throughout 2013-14 will have their arrears nullified, and any money they have been made to pay in rent, returned. In Mike Thornton's own words " To make the whole policy fairer, because the Committee feels it isn't fair. "
Julian Clegg asked Mike Thornton about DHPs, which Mr Thornton inaccurately called "Direct Housing Payments". There have been many problems with DHPs, as the MP pointed out: " a) you don't know if you're going to get it, and b) different councils apply [the rules] differently to others, some will take into account DLA "
Mr Thornton is correct to mention that DLA is often taken into account, the DWP is facing another Judicial Review over bedroom tax, because DLA is a benefit intended to meet the additional costs of having a disability, not the additional costs of retrospective and unfair government policy. Sadly, Lord Freud and the ministerial team don't understand this, as I've blogged about before.
Mr Thornton briefly mentioned the issue of overcrowding, stating of his MP's surgery that " People come every week because they need more space for their family but there's just nowhere to move to. ", but he failed to mention that the room size standards he talked about implementing for the rooms affected by bedroom tax in calculating overcrowding. When room sizes are counted differently between under- and over-occupancy, it makes it impossible in practice to compare the two things.
Then, Mr Thornton said what everyone else has been saying all along; he declared that the;
" Policy should be fair, properly administered and not treat people with genuine problems and genuine difficulties the way they have been treated - this was the view of the whole committee ".
Yes, Mike - everyone involved around the policy already knows this - most of us have known this all along, but despite repeated representations, the government hasn't listened.
Click Here for a list of all the votes in Parliament where MPs had a chance to do something about the unfairness of the policy. That is a list of 9 separate House of Commons votes. It is only fair to say that Mike has only been an MP since 2013, so would have only been available to vote in the most recent 4 votes, but his record shows he wasn't present for three of them, and voted against tenants in the one he did manage to attend.
Bafflingly in his interview, Mike Thornton claims not to be a member of the government, claiming he's " Not actually a member of the government, I'm a backbencher ". It's easy to see how he might think that he couldn't influence the outcome. However, the truth is that he had a number of opportunities to protect the vulnerable groups that he claims the policy is unfair towards, and he chose not to take them. By being absent from the votes, Mike ensured that disabled people, people unable to move and other vulnerable groups like victims of domestic violence and people whose needs mean they must live in supported accommodation have been forced to pay or move, or throw themselves at the mercy of the postcode lottery of Discretionary Housing Payments.
In every Commons debate, the only reason that vulnerable groups went on being persecuted were that the Liberal Democrats voted with the government to ensure this unfairness.
This seems completely at odds with Mike's understanding. Perhaps because he didn't turn up for the votes, he believes
" I think the thing to look at is that a coalition government is made up of two different parties, we came third, we can't get through everything we want, but the interesting thing about the committee is that this was universally agreed - Labour, the single lib dem on there, myself, and the conservative members on the committee all agreed that this was the right thing to do. Now I think when you have a cross-party agreement I think the pressure on the government to do the right thing will be pretty strong ".
This simply isn't true, and whilst he correctly identifies that the party membership of the Liberal Democrats does support repeal or heavy modification of the policy, and has done for a long time, this view has not been represented in parliament by the majority of Liberal Democrat MPs, who are collectively responsible for the policy being passed, and for being as punitive as it currently is.
Mike also seemed confused about how the policy is intended to work " We're probably moving away from the idea that the country can provide everyone with everything that we once felt was right, and I think that when public funds - your and my taxes - are helping to pay someone's rent, perhaps that person should only have as much rent as they need to live properly... and I do mean properly, I think the way the policy has been implemented and has caused hardship is unnecessary, but I do think that if I'm paying towards someone's rent then perhaps they should be paying the rent or living in the house that is necessary for them to live comfortably, not more than they need "
This argument restates the political rhetoric of the Tory party, that Housing Benefit recipients are somehow responsible for the makeup of UK Housing, His assertion that the policy allows social tenants to live 'properly' is ignorant of the very improper treatment that tenants have had to face since its implementation a year ago.
In response to my On-Air pledge never to vote LibDem again, Mike said: " We came third [laughter], we sometimes have to make compromises that perhaps we find uncomfortable, but we didn't win the majority of the votes, therefore we don't have the democratic right to put through the majority of our policies "
As I hope I've shown above, in Hansard evidence of Libdem votes, Mike's party has had a much bigger effect on this policy than he thinks - ensuring that it has been implemented, that it disproportionately affects disabled people, that it takes no account of forcing people from their homes of many years. None of this would have been possible without the Libdems, however modest Mike appears to be about their contribution to this pernicious policy.
Finally, seeking to absolve the government he is a part of, of some responsibility, Mike pipes up about a scheme where bungalows were built to allow pensioners to downsize: " When we've built a bunch of bungalows for elderly people and pensioners where people say they won't want to move out of the house they've moved in all their life, they've jumped at it - they were desperate to get into these smaller houses that suited them better, so if you build the right houses for people, then people are happy to move "
Pensioners are, of course, exempt from bedroom tax, and housing associations and local authorities have not been given this option to incentivise downsizing by building new properties for those working-age tenants who actually are affected. Again, Mike seems a little unclear about the scope of the policy, and it's a particular cruelty to use this example of jolly pensioners, when the reality for those affected has been fuel poverty, being forced into foodbanks, or into the hands of payday lenders to pay for the very bare essentials of their existence.
As I wasn't previously able to get a right to reply to the things Mike said, this blog will have to do.
Interview with BBC Radio Solent!!
Tune in to BBC Radio Solent to hear our resident artists Viktor and Amber's interview on realism 3D tattoos!!