i don't think i'll ever stop telling people to read moench's pre-Crisis work, like i really just cannot recommend it enough.
moench wrote most of 90s batman and made references to his 80s run all the time, so—even if you're not interested in 80s shenanigans, extra jaybin stories, bronze age characterization, etc—i truly believe the experience of reading his 90s run is substantially improved by being able to recognize and understand those references. at the very least, you get to catch a throwback, which is always fun, but sometimes moench used his callbacks to enhance the narrative in this really cool, subtle way that just adds so much weight to his writing.
it's actually one of my favorite parts of his work in knightsaga because in prelude, while bruce is spiraling, moench repeatedly references parts of his 80s run that were specifically related to jason, but avoids ever directly mentioning or referencing jason until that famous scene with the joker right before knightfall's climax.
one of the best examples of moench doing this was the way bruce was repeatedly forced by the narrative to recount old cases in which jason played a significant role—most notably the story that introduced black mask, a character who, iirc, had not been used since—which bruce did in unusually perfect detail, except for the parts jason was in.
bruce completely skipped over any parts of cases that could not be retold without mentioning jason—and not in a "jason was retconned out of this" kind of way, but in a "bruce was retelling the story totally linearly until this specific part, and it is very clear he is leaving things out" kind of way.
it's genuinely so interesting to me because, as a reader, you can tell bruce's escalating self-destructiveness is related to jason, and you can also tell bruce is attempting to avoid going anywhere near that subject.
jason's name is never once uttered, not even in thought. he is never truly referenced in any way because bruce cannot withstand it. he refuses to take cognizance of jason because any acknowledgement—who jason was, what jason did—is reflexively identified as past tense. it forces bruce to confront a reality in which jason is dead, and bruce cannot take it; he cannot bear it, and so he doesn't.
thus, neither does the narrative—jason is denied any presence within it. yet somehow, as the reader, you can still tell! you can still tell that bruce's "obsession" is really avoidance. you can still tell that his inability to tolerate his grief is what's fueling this endless spiral. moench manages to make all of this clear without ever making any actual references to jason himself.
jason is effectively excluded; he's not present within the story, and moench uses that. the narrative emphasizes the presence of things that were related to jason, which, in turn, draws the reader's attention to his blatant lack of presence. you can tell because there is nothing where you know jason should be, and you can feel the edges of that nothing, and they're sharp and jagged and undeniably something. jason's absence is made tangible, and he is everywhere.
by the time knightfall approaches it's climax, your palms are raw from feeling along the jagged edges of every jason-shaped hole moench has led you to. every one of moench's callbacks becomes a reminder of not just jason, but the distinct life jason lived: the cases he solved, the people he helped, the rogues he fought. moench doesn't incessantly press us against the edge of jason's absence to remind us of how he died, he does it to remind us of how jason lived.
everything is reminiscent of jason's life, which makes that moment when bruce is pummeling the joker—when all he can think to himself is that jason will never "breathe, speak, or move again", that jason will never live again—pack an even bigger punch because we've continually been confronted with the proof that he once did.
in my opinion, it is one of the best depictions of bruce's grief. moench lets bruce be an unreliable narrator which makes him really great at writing bruce's avoidance of vulnerability. this is a strength of moench's writing in general, but is particularly well-executed in knightsaga. i imagine this may be partly because he essentially created jason, and knightfall seems to reflect some of his personal thoughts on the death of a character he invested so much time into.
there's just this, like, raw pathos in moench's issues of prelude and knightfall that builds up and up and up, and regardless of whether you've read his 80s run, you will feel that tension, and it will pay off. it's not like moench's subtle references are the only things that contribute to that. i just think understanding those references makes that eventual culmination hit that much harder, and the fact he manages to add so much depth through his use of negative space is really cool to me, especially for a character like bruce.
anyway, everyone should go read moench's 80s run because being pre-Crisis doesn't automatically mean it's irrelevant, and even if it was, it's a fun read; who cares whether it's perfectly aligned with modern canon?
so tired of seeing ppl use the way jason's drawn in ADITF to say he was ~15. like that’s just how jim aparo drew children, idk what to tell you 😭, but also it's not necessarily true that aparo drew jason as older than 12–13 years old.
first, look at how aparo drew jason confronting bruce abt two face murdering his father, compared to the OG scene:
Batman (1940) #411 & #428
he just drew little kids weird guys, idk. i think what’s more important are the heights jason's drawn at, cause you’ll notice he drew jason as being up to bruce’s waist/chest in the flashbacks of ADITF, which is also how he was drawn in the actual issues:
Batman (1940) #408, #409, #410, #411, #428 (x2)
we all know aparo drew jason similarly older-looking in the present of ADITF, however, if, again, you focus on the height jason was drawn as, you'll notice he's around shoulder height on bruce throughout ADITF:
Batman (1940) #426 (x3) & #427 (x2)
this matches how he was drawn in TDS, in which he was canonically in 7th grade—as i explain in this post—and, more importantly, didn’t look like he paid alimony:
Batman (1940) #424 (x5)
what i think is particularly interesting, is that pre-crisis jason, who we’re explicitly told multiple times was 12 years old and was, famously, very adorable, was also about shoulder height on bruce:
what's more, tim says he’s 13 in his first appearance, and he was drawn roughly up to bruce’s shoulders at the time as well:
Batman (1940) #441, #442, #444, #467, #468
if pre-crisis jason (who we know was 12 at his introduction) was drawn as around shoulder height on bruce, and tim (who we know was 13 at his introduction) was also drawn as around shoulder height on bruce, then i think it’s fair to say that “roughly up to bruce’s shoulder” was 12–13-year-old height in Batman comics at the time. jason was drawn at that same height throughout starlin’s run, specifically ADITF, which lines up with all the timeline tracking i did in this post that places starlin’s entire run—Batman (1940) #414–430—in jason’s 7th-grade year.
in other words, even the art supports the interpretation that jason was originally a 7th-grader (12–13 years old) in ADITF!!!
I see a lot of confusion about Jason's age in the fandom, which totally makes sense. I mean, DC timelines are infamously difficult to follow, and Jason, specifically, is a very old character; his continuity can be pretty hard to track unless you're deliberately trying to. Conveniently—or perniciously, at least for my personal well-being—I'm really into tracking timelines in comic books, and I deliberately try to track Jason Todd’s continuity within them. Yay.
Anyway, Jason's one of my favorite characters, so there's a ton of information in my brain about where he fits into DC’s overall timeline and his general continuity. I’ve been wanting to make a mega-post recounting everything I know in excruciating detail for a while now, so I figured I’d start off by providing a sort of walkthrough of how Jason’s age changes throughout canon.
Also, this post is really long, like absurdly so. Whatever length you just imagined based on that description, try doubling it—maybe tripling—and, unless you’re a freak like me who gets excited about this stuff, you’ll probably still be dragging your feet by the end of a full read-through. So…anticipate accordingly? I dunno. I warned you though!
Notes on Structure
Okay so, evidently, there’s a lot going on in this post, and—assuming everyone wasn’t just scared off by that last bit—it’s probably best if I supply a quick roadmap so you have some sort of idea of what you’re getting yourself into.
I’ll be focusing on post-Crisis on Infinite Earths (1985) (COIE) continuity. Personally speaking, it’s the era of DC continuity I know the most about, and the only one I feel comfortable enough to write something this exhaustive for. Moreover, modern DC continuity has mostly been restored to what it was post-Crisis, meaning pre-New 52 comics and events are generally safe to analyze through the lens of the timeline as it was pre-boot. Not to mention, the fandom tends to use post-Crisis continuity for character ages and timelines over post-New 52 retcons, and, at the end of the day, this is a fandom post, and I’m going to cater it to fandom discourse; it’s only natural.
Additionally, I’ll be separating post-Crisis continuity into pre- and post-Zero Hour: Crisis in Time! (1994); this is because Zero Hour was a time crisis. If you’re unfamiliar with the effects of DC’s various crises, Zero Hour reorganized the overall DC timeline to squeeze what was then the modern age into roughly ten years, which naturally affected Batman’s overall continuity—and thus Jason’s—pretty significantly.
The changes made to the timeline by Zero Hour are particularly relevant to Jason’s specific continuity, especially regarding his age. Given these discrepancies, I’ll be interpreting pre- and post-Zero Hour continuity independently, and this post will be divided into three parts. In Parts One and Two, I’ll cover any material and corresponding analysis related to pre- and post-Zero Hour continuity respectively. Subsequently, in Part Three, I’ll cover where these two continuities contradict one another, a few different ways these contradictions can be reconciled, and summarized versions of any timelines established in this post for quick reference.
Sources will be weighed roughly by their canonical and probative value: on-panel comic evidence first, then contemporary editorial statements, then contemporary external material, and finally later external publications. Also—before anyone else brings it up—I’d like to establish that I'm not going to use the death certificate from The Batman Files (2011), as, per the criteria I just outlined, it carries no real weight as a source. I'll come back to this at the end and provide a full explanation of this decision, but for right now I'm going to move on.
PART ONE: Pre-Zero Hour (1986–1994)
NOTE: If you're seeing this, then this post is still a WIP; only pre-Zero Hour continuity has been covered so far.
Age at Death + Starlin's Run
Out of everything, I think Jason’s age and the overall timeline of Jim Starlin's entire run on Batman (Batman #414–430) are the most important, but also most butchered, areas of Jason’s pre-Zero Hour continuity. Like, seriously guys, I don’t know how it got this bad; we’ve all been really off base. This section is the longest, and I’m going to ask you to bear with me through some pretty granular timeline stuff, but I promise it all goes somewhere, and you’ll come out of this as baffled as I am regarding the fandom’s perception of Jason’s age in these comics.
SOURCE ONE: Batman Annual (1940) #12
In The Back-Up, which was included in Batman Annual (1940) #12, Jason is explicitly stated to be a 7th grader. On that same page I linked, Jason references KGBeast—a character who did not exist until the storyline Batman: Ten Nights of the Beast (Batman #417–420)—meaning Batman Annual #12 must take place after Batman #417–420. From there, Jason runs away in Batman #426, and is dead by Batman #428. It's obvious that multiple years didn't pass from Batman #420 to Batman #426; neither the comics nor editorial give any reason to believe otherwise...but I promised a full walk-through, so here we go.
The in-universe timeline of Jim Starlin's entire run on Batman (Batman #414–430) can be tracked pretty easily. The goal of tracking Starlin's run is to demonstrate why it cannot take place over multiple years; if Jason is a 7th grader after the KGBeast arc, he cannot plausibly have aged into another grade by ADITF. Batman #414 begins Starlin's run as well as the "Dumpster Slasher" trilogy, which then continues in Batman #421 and concludes in Batman #422. On page two of Batman #421, we’re told that since Batman #414, the total number of victims has increased to ten, and that the killer has since developed a pattern of killing once a week, skipping the third. Subsequently, on page three of Batman #421, we're told that Kate Babcock was Victim #5. As we were shown another victim after Kate in Batman #414, we can derive that the pattern started with Victim #6 at the end of Batman #414, and we can simply follow the pattern therefrom:
Week 1: Victim #6 (end of Batman #414)
Week 2: Victim #7
Week 3: Skipped
Week 4: Victim #8
Week 5: Victim #9
Week 6: Skipped
Week 7: Victim #10
Week 8: Victim #11 (beginning of Batman #421)
As you may have noticed, I included a “Victim #11” despite earlier stating there were ten victims. This is because on page two of Batman #421, Bruce says to Gordon that there should have been an eleventh victim that week and is then informed that they haven’t found a body, yet. Read the issue if you want to know what I mean by that "yet", as it's not relevant for timeline stuff, but this tells us that everything from Batman #414–421 happens within two months, including Batman: Ten Nights of the Beast, which, as the name suggests, takes place over ten nights. Furthermore, the end of Batman #421 flows directly into the beginning of Batman #422, and in the middle of Batman #422, there's a 3-month time skip. Therefore, everything from the end of Batman #414 through the end of Batman #422 happens within ~5 months.
Unfortunately, after Batman #422, I've been unable to find anything that tells us how much time passes within Starlin's run, but I can estimate from looking at the art and the pacing of the actual story. I don’t think any significant amount of time passes from Batman #422–426, and then Batman #426–430 seems to take place over a few weeks, so, to err on the side of caution, I’m going to call it roughly 1–3 months. This means that Starlin's entire Batman run, excluding the last few issues where Jason is dead, takes place over roughly 6–8 months, but that's not all—I can also tell you what time of year it takes place.
Detective Comics (1937) #581 takes place around the 200th anniversary of the U.S. Constitution, which was signed on September 17th, 1787. The following issue, Detective Comics #582, is a direct tie-in to Batman #415, meaning we can reasonably assume Starlin's run begins in early fall; add 6–8 months, and we end up in the spring for ADITF (well, isn't that a satisfying coincidence?). From there, we can reason that Starlin's run takes place within one school year. Ergo, if Jason was in 7th grade in Batman Annual #12, which, as I've already established, takes place after Batman #420, then he must also have been a 7th grader when he died.
Jason didn't have a birthday in the 80's, so we can't pinpoint an exact age just off pre-Zero Hour continuity, but 7th graders are 12–13 years old, which means Jason was 12–13 years old when he died. This is an absurd level of detail to track a comic book timeline down to, but I didn't want to leave room for anyone to be like "Wait, but a summer could have passed, which would put him in 8th grade". So...there you go.
SOURCE TWO: Letter Columns of Batman (1940) #413
NOTE: Transcribed this one in case the links break, since I know finding letter columns can be a pain.
In the letter columns of Batman #413, a reader wrote in, asking about Jason’s age:
My one complaint about this otherwise excellent two-part story concerns the ambiguity of Jason’s age. The way Chris Warner drew him in #408, he looks to be about ten years old, which would be right if, as Denny O’Neil says, the story occurs about three years ago. But in #409, Jason looks like he could be thirteen. Tom Mandrake had him looking about fifteen or sixteen (see the portrait in WHO’S WHO). Klaus Janson did the same in DETECTIVE #568. And in BATMAN #402 he could be about eighteen or twenty. However, according to the tombstone at the end of DETECTIVE #571, he is twelve!
Let’s have a ruling. Once and for all, how old is Jason Todd?
I think a lot of people read the first couple of sentences of this question, skip straight to the answer, and then end up confused—cough, DC wiki—but the reader explicitly mentions that Batman #408 happens in the past, and then goes on to discuss comics that, at the time, were taking place in present continuity. It is pretty clear, at least to me, that what they’re confused about is the fact that Jason seemed to have multiple present-continuity-ages, and they couldn’t even estimate his then-current age based on what he looked like in Batman #408–409. In other words, it is more reasonable to assume the letter is asking “How old is Jason in present continuity?” rather than “How old is Jason meant to be in Batman #408–409?”. The response to the reader's question makes this interpretation difficult to dispute:
OK, I’m going to go right to the sensei on this one:
“Oh great Denny-lama, just how old is Jason Todd?”
“Ah, weed-hopper, he is 12. Now quit bowing to me and take that silly turban off your head!”
Whether or not you interpreted the reader's question as “How old is Jason in present continuity?”, I think it’s pretty clear the editors did. I don’t see a case for arguing that this is not an explicit answer for how old Jason was in present continuity at the time.
Alternatively, if that's not a good enough reason for you, we've established that Jason is a 7th grader in Batman Annual #12, which takes place after Batman #420, and that Batman #414–422 take place over ~5 months. In addition, we know that Batman #408–409 take place about 3 years before then-present continuity (see sources five and six for details). Therefore, to claim this response is stating that Jason was 12 in Batman #408 instead of present continuity, you must also claim that Batman #414–422 happened about 3 years in the past, which would be...untruthful.
Batman #413 directly precedes Batman #414, which means Jason was ~12 at the beginning of Starlin's run—the beginning of the school year—reaffirming Jason being in 7th grade throughout.
NOTE: I’m still busy and haven’t been able to add this source to the post, but the letter columns of Batman #420 also state that Jason is 12!
SOURCE THREE: Detective Comics (1937) #571
NOTE: I’ve actually managed to work this into the timeline and make it more useful! I don’t have the time to write out a super detailed explanation at the moment, but if you’re curious you can read a non-polished version here.
In Detective Comics #571, we're shown Jason's birth year (1974) and the current year (1986), which would put Detective Comics #571 in the year Jason turns 12. You might be wondering why I didn't list this source earlier, and that's because it's more difficult to place in overall continuity than Batman Annual #12. Mike W. Barr's run on Detective Comics ('TEC) was essentially responsible for reestablishing the dynamic duo in post-Crisis continuity. It was released alongside Batman: Year One (Batman #404–407) as well as Jason's origin retelling (Batman #408–411), and had a flashback story of its own, making those first few issues comparatively self-contained, given that they were the primary source for Batman and Robin's present continuity at the time.
They're still fully canon, but they're difficult to decisively place in Jason's overall post-Crisis timeline, so I think 'TEC #571 is best used as secondary, rather than primary, evidence to strengthen the claim made with the first and second sources.
SOURCE FOUR: DC TTRPG Card From 1989
This is a DC TTRPG card from 1989—right after Jason’s death—which lists Jason as 13 years old and deceased. 7th graders are usually 13 by the spring, so this card placing him at 13 makes sense and lines up with everything we've established so far. It should be noted that this is licensed by DC, rather than being from an actual comic, creator, or some other form of official material; thus, I wouldn't use it as a standalone source. However, since the card matches up with every other source from the time pretty nicely, I think it's useful as additional proof, much like the third source, as it makes the claim feel a bit more solid.
TL;DR
Every source I've found for this era points to the same conclusion: Jason was 12–13 years old when he died in aDitF. The primary evidence for this interpretation appears in Batman Annual #12, which establishes that Starlin's entire Batman run takes place within Jason’s 7th-grade year, thus making Jason a 7th-grader when he died. This evidence is corroborated by the letter columns of Batman #413—which place Jason at 12 at the beginning of Starlin’s run—as well as ‘TEC #571 and the DC TTRPG Card, which place Jason at 12 and 13 years old respectively.
Since we don't have a canonical birthday for Jason in pre-Zero Hour continuity, I can't claim with complete certainty whether his 13th birthday occurred before he died. I know that’s lame, but “vaguely 7th-grader shaped” is pretty clean in terms of comic book timelines, so I suggest we just count our blessings and be grateful that every source seems to support the same conclusion.
Meeting Bruce + Debuting as Robin
I’d love to tell you that you’ve made it through the hard part and that this next section is easier, but that’d be a lie. Jason was aged down with his reimagined origin story following CoIE, which meant his age at meeting Bruce and his debut as Robin were established entirely through retcons in pre-Zero Hour continuity. This, in some ways, makes this age more straightforward, as editorial was able to cement his introduction and then-present age simultaneously while they were restructuring panoptic continuity, meaning Jason’s ages fit very easily into DC’s initial post-Crisis timelines where other characters’ get muddied or contradicted. However, since they were technically retcons, we do not see these ages reflected in the actual pre-Crisis material that was affected, making them somewhat self-contained and difficult to confirm when compared externally.
This is why I established Jason’s age following CoIE first: it gives us an anchor to tether these retcons to and, hopefully, makes them easier for you guys to interpret—though that may be wishful thinking on my part. Nonetheless, pre-Zero Hour continuity remains relatively consistent on this figure, and I promise the method to pinning it down isn’t that convoluted so long as you’re capable of some basic subtraction.
SOURCE FIVE: Batman (1940) #416
Batman #416 is a flashback set one year in the past from present continuity, which, as I just established in my explanation of source one, would at this point be the fall of Jason's 7th grade year—meaning he'd be ~12 in the "present", and ~11 in this flashback. This issue is a retelling of Dick and Jason's first meeting, as Jason's revised post-crisis origin story rendered the original story obsolete. On page ten of Batman #416, Bruce says to Dick that he hasn't heard from him in eighteen months, which we can assume is referencing when Dick was fired in Batman #408.
Bruce meets Jason in Batman #408 weeks after Dick leaves; since there's only "weeks" between Dick leaving and Jason popping up, I think it's acceptable to use ~18 months for how long it's been since Bruce met Jason as well. I mean, it's a comic book timeline, we're lucky if we can get it down to a specific season, let alone specific weeks.
Anyway, that means that, according to Batman #416, about ~2.5 years pass from when Jason meets Bruce in Batman #408 to the present of Batman #416, or the fall of Jason's 7th grade year. Therefore, if Jason is ~12 in the fall of his 7th grade year, we can derive Jason is about 9–10 years old when he meets Bruce in Batman #408.
SOURCE SIX: Letter Columns of Batman (1940) #412
NOTE: Again, transcribed this one in case the link breaks, since I know finding letter columns can be annoying.
In the letter columns of Batman #412, a reader wrote in, asking why Jason was getting an origin story when he already had one and had been Robin for years. An editor, Johnathan Peterson, replied:
The reason Jason Todd’s origin is being reintroduced, David, is because DC’s hit mini-series CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS completely wiped out his earlier origin, namely the one in BATMAN #368. Actually, a few people wrote in expressing their similar confusion over the situation. So, let’s set the record straight. The events in BATMAN #408-409 chronicle the one, true, post-CRISIS origin of Jason Todd in Batman continuity. Also, this story takes place about 3 years ago. Thus, we are not denying Dick Grayson quit Robin to become Nightwing. It's just that we're not chronicling in depth Dick's decision to leave and his subsequent solo adventures in our current run of stories.
This one kind of speaks for itself. I mean Peterson literally explicitly states that Batman #408–409 took place ~3 years ago, ergo, if Jason was ~12 in what was then present continuity, then Jason was ~9 when he met Bruce in Batman #408. I would've included this source first because it's so easy to follow, but it's from the letter columns so I figured I'd prioritize the comic-based evidence.
SOURCE SEVEN: Robert Greenberger's Guidebooks
NOTE: You guessed it. Transcribed for your convenience. Also, if you're wondering why I'm including a post-Zero Hour source in this section, it's because the book seems to use Jason's pre-Zero Hour timeline. I can elaborate on what I mean by this in the replies, but basically, it's a guide, not a comic, meaning it goes in the same section as the material it's based on.
In his book The Essential Batman Encyclopedia (2008), Robert Greenberger explicitly claims that Jason was 9 years old when he met Bruce:
In the wake of CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS, Batman was once again a loner after Dick Grayson moved out of the manor. While visiting CRIME ALLEY, he discovered nine-year-old Jason Todd in the process of stealing the BATMOBILE's tires. Batman was impressed by the youth's moxie and took him to MA GUNN's School for Boys. The facility, though, was a front for a criminal operation that used the boys as thieves. Once Batman and Jason helped put an end to the scheme, the Dark Knight realized that he could mold the impetuous boy and decided the time had come to take on a new partner.
Furthermore, in another of his books, Batman: 100 Greatest Moments: Highlights from the History of The Dark Knight (2019), Greenberger repeats this detail:
After the events of Crisis on Infinite Earths, it was decided to revamp Jason. Incoming writer Max Allan Collins made him a nine-year-old street urchin, first found in Crime Alley trying to rip off the Batmobile's tires. He explained that his criminal father was dead and he believed his mother was as well, so he had learned to fend for himself.
It should be noted that these excerpts are from guidebooks, meaning they aren't necessarily canon material or direct contemporary statements from the creators, and they serve best as secondary, rather than primary, evidence. For this very reason, I usually avoid guidebooks for continuity research; compiling decades of comic book history into one coherent narrative inevitably leads to errors. This is especially true for comic book timelines, which are infamously difficult to track, let alone when trying to balance multiple characters across various titles. However, it's important to look at evidence from every angle before you disregard it, and I think Greenberger has the history to make his word on this topic worth further consideration.
In 1984, Robert Greenberger was hired as an assistant editor to help Len Wein and Marv Wolfman. In case you're not particularly well-versed on the internal bureaucracy at DC, a core part of an editor's job description is maintaining continuity—it is literally their job to track the timelines, histories, and ages of characters across multiple titles.
I'd like to emphasize the fact that he worked alongside Len Wein and Marv Wolfman of all people, who were almost entirely responsible for coordinating and establishing post-Crisis continuity in the 80's. What's more, he's credited as both an editor and a writer for COIE and Who's Who, two projects that served as the foundation for post-Crisis continuity and characterization; his work during this period was so vital that he was promoted to editor only a year later in 1985. This guy is more than qualified to speak on continuity details from the mid-80's, especially for a character as integral to the DC mythos as Robin.
If that weren't enough, Greenberger wrote The Back-Up, which, in case you forgot, is literally the story in Batman Annual #12 that establishes Jason as a 7th grader. So he isn't just an accredited writer and editor who worked around the time Jason was Robin, he was directly involved with writing Jason Todd and the creator of one of the most straightforward sources for gauging Jason's age I've personally come across. If that doesn't make him worth listening to, then I don't know what else would.
Personally, I actually think it's really interesting that he claims Jason was 9 of all ages, since that's not necessarily the most intuitive option just going off the comics. From Batman #416 alone, you could easily argue that Jason was 10, while 9 only becomes the sole option if you exclusively go off Peterson's claim of "about 3 years" from source six. The fact that after twenty years, he included this age in his Batman encyclopedia, and then reaffirmed the detail ten years later in a second guidebook, makes me think it's an age for Jason editorial actually had written down somewhere and he personally remembered, rather than being something he independently pieced together years down the line.
Ultimately, I'm not going to claim these statements should be used as definitive sources, as, in any case, they're statements from guidebooks, rather than comic books, but I think they can tenably be used as additional evidence. Given that Greenberger's assertion fits perfectly within that 9–10-year-old range the previous two sources established, I think placing Jason at 9–10 years old when he met Bruce is more than reasonable when discussing pre-Zero Hour continuity.
SOURCE EIGHT: Batman (1940) #410
Batman #410—the first part of a two-part retelling of Jason's first outing as Robin—tells us on page one that it's been six months since Bruce took Jason in, ergo, six months pass between Jason meeting Bruce and his first Robin outing. Since, again, we didn't have a birthday for Jason in pre-Zero Hour continuity, there's no way for us to know if his birthday passed within those six months. Therefore, if Jason was 9–10 years old when he met Bruce, he was also 9–10 years old when he made his post-Crisis Robin debut.
On page two of Batman #410, we're told by the narration that Jason is a "fifth-grade dropout"; considering fifth-graders are 10–11 years old, this would expand the 9–10-year-old range the previous three sources established, making Jason 10–11 years old when he met Bruce in Batman #408. However, I think this source can reasonably be labeled as an outlier, as three sources (a comic, a contemporary editorial statement, and a repeated claim from a credible writer), should probably be taken over one source (a comic).
Moreover, I think it's important to remember the context in which these comics were being written. Batman #408–411 were released as countless changes were being made to the overall DC continuity, and they may not have yet fully established an internal Batman timeline for the new post-Crisis continuity; notably, this age lines up suspiciously well with the pre-Crisis Batman timeline, which makes me think this may have actually been the case.
Also, the actual phrasing of "fifth-grade dropout" is kind of vague. You could argue this phrasing implies he dropped out of fifth grade, but it could also be interpreted as Jason currently being a fifth grader, as well as a dropout, placing him much closer to 10, or even 9 years old, six months earlier when he met Bruce. I'm not saying either of these reasons are enough to completely disregard this source; what's most important is that there are more sources it contradicts than it affirms, but, like I said earlier, it's best to look at a source from every angle before deciding it should be disregarded.
Regardless of the contradictions, it's there in the text, and I feel the need to include it here so you guys get the full picture. Even so, when tracking comic book timelines, there are going to be places where you just have to choose something to use and something to lose. So, as much as I hate disregarding on-panel evidence, one piece of evidence isn't enough to outweigh the broader evidentiary pattern that's been established through the other three sources. Therefore, for the purpose of this post, I'm going to set this source aside and keep the cleaner 9–10-year-old range.
TL;DR
Most sources I've found from this era support a relatively consistent conclusion: Jason was 9–10 years old when he met Bruce in Batman #408, and still 9–10 when he debuted as Robin six months later in Batman #410. Batman #416 places his meeting with Bruce about 2.5 years before the beginning of Starlin’s run, and editor Johnathan Peterson states outright in the letter columns of Batman #412 that Batman #408–409 took place "about 3 years ago."
Working backward from Jason’s established then-present age, both land Jason at roughly 9–10 years old when he first crosses paths with Bruce, and since only six months separate that meeting from his first outing in the pixie boots, the same range holds for his official Robin debut story in Batman #410. Bob Greenberger's guidebooks narrow this figure down to nine specifically, which, again—not proof on their own, but a nice bit of reinforcement from someone who was literally referred to as “the Continuity Cop That Walks Like a Man” in DC’s editorial shop.
The one outlier is Batman #410's narration calling Jason a "fifth-grade dropout," which nudges our range toward 10–11 years old instead. As I already explained, I'm treating that as the odd one out rather than the rule, since it's outnumbered by a comic, an editorial statement, and a repeated authorial claim, and may be a holdover from the pre-Crisis timeline that hadn't been fully scrubbed yet. We still don’t have a canonical birthday for Jason in pre-Zero Hour continuity, which means I still can’t pinpoint an exact age within this range, but, as I said in the last section, 9–10 is a pretty clean range in terms of comic book timelines, especially compared to other characters—see: 8–13-year-old Dick Grayson as Robin.
Final Review
From what I can tell, the pre-Zero Hour consensus was that Jason was 9–10 years old when he met Bruce and debuted as Robin, and 12–13 years old when he died.
If there's any piece of evidence relating to this topic and era of continuity that I didn't include, please let me know. There's always a chance I forgot something, didn't write it down, or just haven't personally seen it. Likewise, if there's something you noticed in this post—logic, reasoning, counterarguments, etc—that I didn't account for, tell me, and I'll try my best to adjust or clarify as needed.
Anyway, that's pretty much everything I have to discuss, like I've covered all the relevant material I know of, as well as the analysis attached to it. This era, specifically the 80's, has the most material regarding Jason's age and continuity as Robin, which makes it annoying to go through, but also probably the most comfortable since there are multiple sources to support each claim.
Following Zero Hour and even Flashpoint, the timeline gets compressed, stretched, and so on, changing Jason's ages with it, but these ages are, from what I can tell, what he was originally intended to be read as. Comic books in general don't have completely linear timelines. It's just the nature of the genre; you can't have reasonably paced stories while also keeping characters the ages you want them to be over decades of publishing.
In my opinion, you're better off reading characters as the age intended in whatever comic you're reading, rather than aging them up or down in accordance with later continuities and retcons, meaning you should use these ages for these events in Jason's life. However, I do understand the need to organize it all into one coherent timeline, evidently, which is why I'm going to go through different ways to do that after I go through post-Zero Hour. Still, I think you should at the very least keep these ages in the back of your head when reading material from the era, especially Jason's original Robin run. It's important context for meta-discussion, as well as the actual stories and Jason's characterization within them.
I'm leaving off here for now because I'm still working on the other parts. I was originally going to do one big post/reblog chain all at once, but lowkey, this is taking forever, and I needed the dopamine hit from posting something before I lost interest and "took a break" (gave up). The other parts will be shorter and less intense, cause there's just not as much stuff to go through, so you don't have to worry about this already long post getting that much longer. Ideally, they'll be posted in the next few days, so...yeah.
Next part is post-Zero Hour. Spoiler alert: there are fewer changes than you'd think! Not much else to add from me. I think I've finally out-yapped myself. There's a first time for everything, I guess.
ive been putting off the last issues of knightsend because the way theyre talking to/about jean paul is PISSING ME OFFFF
this man is very clearly having a SEVERE MENTAL HEALTH CRISIS!!! he is in ACTIVE PSYCHOSIS!!!! why are they calling him a vindictive spiteful brute?????
like omg he let a serial killer die, big fucking deal. never mind the fact that bruce has done the EXACT SAME THING (batman: the cult #4, batman #425, etc) and has worked with ppl who have purposefully killed while not being in ACTIVE PSYCHOSIS!!
he is literally hallucinating!!! hes barely sleeping!!! hes delusional!!! why is disgust and hostility their immediate response to his palpable turmoil?? to his suffering??? what the fuck???
it just gets worse and worse throughout the entire event…like jean paul starts out trying to stop himself but just spirals and theres no one there to stop him; they only seriously step in once he does something truly “bad”. genuinely everyones gotta go.
and dont even get me started on what they did to shondra bro oh my GOD—
with legends now finished, i basically have the jaybin timeline fully plotted out. still a fewww kinks i have to work out, but i don't think anything too major can change from here, so i figured i'd make a post outlining everything for fun
this isn't gonna be a full explanation post because i need to finish tracking NTT to jason's death (i am only up to COIE atp), which might change a few minute pre-crisis details, but this is what i have landed on, focusing mostly on jason and bruce. i broke this into quarters for the sake of brevity, and also because i think that's lowkey the best way to think abt comic book timelines, but it should be noted i have all of these issues individually tracked and written down. Like to the exact day(s). so.
i think i've tracked almost every major og jaybin appearance? like i left out the superman ones and obv blue devil but i'll figure those out later; they're not that important continuity-wise imo. also left out batman #416 cause it's lame and i'm mixing pre and post which means i don't have to use it ❤️ yay ❤️
if you see something on here that looks weird, and you want a fr explanation, pls ask, and i'll try to articulate my logic and reasoning behind whatever decision i made because i promise it's all there i just don't feel like writing a full continuity walk-through for 100+ individual issues atm. or Ever, tbh, sorry guys its difficult enough to walk through in my own brain i can not imagine sitting down to write it all out lmfao
anyway, here's a very very summarized, brief, and vague version of my personal working jaybin timeline atm for anyone curious:
"Year X" refers to the year in Batman’s career Jason debuts as Robin.
Year X-1
Quarter Four
Jason meets Bruce in Batman #408-409
(“about three years ago” from start of Starlin’s run)
Adapted stories from Batman #357-363 & TEC #524-530
Batman and the Outsiders form
Year X
Quarter One
Adapted stories from Batman #364-366 & TEC #531-533
Break for official Robin training
Quarter Two
First Robin outing in Batman #410-411
Adapted stories from Batman #367-372 & TEC #534-539
The Judas Contract
(this may ruffle feathers, sorry)
Quarter Three
OPTION: Batman #402-403 & Batman #412-413
(these stories are so isolated you could lowkey rationalize putting them anywhere; this is a convenient spot to fix issues made by mixing pre and post timelines)
