I see a lot of people questioning how "sans went from deltarune to undertale" and "gaster went from undertale to deltarune" can both be true, especially if they're related.
but at the same time, it really seems like deltarune has happened in some way before. we had an entire chapter about tenna recycling an old game and pretending it's something new, and gerson's whole thing is about reinterpreting existing stories. on top of that, the prophecy speaks as if the roaring has already happened.
so I think it's possible the timeline went like this:
the "original" deltarune -> undertale -> "my deltarune"
(the graphical quality even has a fun sort of chronology to it, getting better over time)
the roaring happened in the original story, and the world was remade into undertale. undertale behaves a lot like a dark world as is (magic exists, undertale characters resemble dark world counterparts), so I think this is within the realm of possibility. sans and papyrus stuck around in undertale, while gaster tried to send himself to "his" deltarune, but fucked up somewhere along the way and got shattered between both.
as for how he got there, we already know a way to manipulate time and space, don't we?
(given this guy is known for making copies, I wonder if he "copied" his save file to create the ones we use. kinda like how kris copied the aces to cheat at cards lmao)
but anyway, gaster seemingly discovered the dark world, right? if your discovery (or any other actions of his) caused the world to end, wouldn't you want to go back and fix things too? maybe obscure your own involvement out of shame? deltarune already has strong themes of nostalgia and grief, but who's nostalgic for deltarune? who grieves this story that, to us, hasn't even happened yet? the prophecy was written in glass made of tears, but who shed those tears?
how about the guy who shattered himself across time and space to preserve its memory?
y'know seeing most discussion of gaster in the weird route boil down to him just going "well that was fucked up lol," I can't help but think of how much missed potential is there. like is it really so strange to think the guy whose shattering was implied to be a suicide might have some Feelings about what just happened besides dull surprise?
"why doesn't he say anything then" kris fell into learned helplessness and believed nothing they did would make a difference. maybe he feels the same. noelle starts out not even sure how to process what happened until you push her to such a breaking point that her only way to cope is by telling herself she wants this and it'll free her. maybe he's thanking you, too.
it's so weird to me to see people treating FRIEND like an important character with agency when this critter, in every way, really does feel like a mage's familiar.
like. it's a black cat associated with demons, depicted as a companion, summoned to serve a cloak-wearing individual who wields fire magic.
so honestly, the thing that interests me about FRIEND is not the critter itself, but who it serves.
because it really is interesting that eram is a cloak-wearing fire mage, when the prince from the dark is ALSO depicted as a cloak-wearing fire mage, AND we know gaster also labels this cat a friend.
is it possible these three were once the same person…?
(worth noting, eram does speak similarly to gaster as well!)
I've seen a lot of people treating "chapter 5 flower shop dark world" as a given. it makes sense why - we know it's a pink and gold garden that involves asgore, which sounds like a perfect match for the flower shop. chekhov's spooky soul flowers also help this case.
but I think there's another option we're not considering here.
so, remember how we all thought the knight wouldn't show up until chapter 6-7, and then we all got jumpscared in chapter 3?
chapter 5 is shaping up to be a climactic one - it was supposed to cap off the planned 3/4/5 release, despite 4 already being a big chapter.
which is to say...
I think the "vast garden" is in the shelter.
ROOTS
there are already a bunch of ties between the shelter and plant life. hell, you just have to look at it:
those vines aren't covering the edge of the door. they're growing from the inside.
the shelter from the sword route and its very similar looking cousin, the mansion basement, both share the "roots" motif - once again drawing a connection to plant life.
and said mansion basement?
it's overgrown with vines.
"what about the field of pink and gold," you say?
one of few things we know about the inside of the shelter is that it is full of This Fucking Thing
ASYLUM
hey, asylum is kind of weird wording, right? I wonder what that...
...oh.
OK BUT WHY WOULD HE GO THERE
last we heard from asgore, he was monologuing to himself about how everyone will finally know the truth about "what really happened."
we have strong reason to believe this is about dess's disappearance. we ALSO have strong reason to believe her disappearance had something to do with the shelter.
if he wanted to show everyone what really happened, why make a dark world in your flower shop when you could show them the truth with their own eyes?
it also just so happens that undyne, his successor, recently went missing under mysterious circumstances...
...hey wait a minute.
THE KNIGHT PLANNED THIS
as beautifully depicted by the latest andrew cunningham video, the knight's plan in chapter 3 seems... fucking bizarre.
if they wanted to kidnap toriel, why did they wait so long when toriel was literally Right There? why change their mind to undyne last minute?
if they wanted to kidnap undyne, that explains why kris slashed the tires and why the knight waited so long. but why bother with containing toriel, then? why did they try to take her before undyne arrived?
it seems like either target would've worked for the plan, then. so what do they have in common?
a personal connection to asgore.
I think the knight needed bait - some kind of final push - to lure asgore into the shelter. undyne was the target, toriel was a backup.
toriel is a reliable option, already asleep at home, while undyne is more unpredictable (as we saw). but I don't think carol and kris of all people would want to put toriel at risk if they don't have to. that would explain why the knight DID try to take her, but only when the fun gang was right about to seal the fountain - and immediately changed course once undyne stepped in.
it's possible asgore knows a shelter code, since he was the former police chief (maybe passed from him to undyne). it also seems like, while asgore has some ties to carol, he doesn't know the full extent of what's going on.
as for why they need to trap him there?
well...
uh oh.
WHAT THIS MEANS FOR THE STORY
narratively, I think this has some sauce. for one, you have the obvious "holy shit" factor of both the shelter AND the festival.
but you also have asgore, someone whose life was ruined obsessing over this mystery... literally being trapped in it out of a desperate effort to get his old life back. if two big themes of deltarune antagonists are "doing what you think is best for others, partly well-meaning but partly self-serving" and "being unable to move on from the past" ... I think "asgore goes in the shelter to show people the truth in a desperate and risky attempt to protect them (but also get his old reputation and family back)" fits that pretty well.
on an aesthetic level, I think we've all been picturing a sort of "true lab" vibe for the shelter. but I'm honestly kind of taken by the idea of this Nightmare Hell Bunker looking... on the surface, like a surreal and beautiful flower garden, but hiding danger below.
the shelter is an escapist paradise, both physically and mentally sheltering you from whatever's happening outside. the garden has taken on a life of its own, and it'll do anything to keep you there.
but what happens when that garden is charred away in an inferno of jealousy, revealing the true horrors that lay beneath?
okay listen, I know what you're thinking, but I PROMISE I have good reasons for believing this. this is as much a thematic analysis as it is filling in gaps. but you're gonna have to hear me out for a bit before we get there.
just a heads-up, this is also gonna contradict some popular fanon. namely, I don't think gaster is sans and papyrus's dad, and I think he's younger than people assume he is. (we do have a mysteriously unrevealed "younger brother" around kris's age who acts nothing like papyrus to think about, after all). so just... keep an open mind, okay?
okay. here we go.
a quick recap on where my head's at
so, in my last couple posts, I discussed how the version of deltarune we're playing... doesn't seem to be the original story. like with tenna and the MANTLE game, it's been modified to scrub the violence for the sake of a better outcome. I theorized that this "original" game became undertale post-roaring, and while sans decided to stay, gaster shattered himself in an attempt to bring back deltarune's world and change the ending.
the prophecy, then, is based on past experience, right? in line with the themes of deltarune, gaster feels some nostalgia and grief for this world, and maybe even some personal responsibility for its outcome.
I'm going to ask one very simple question.
how does he know about the parts he wasn't there for?
simple. because he was.
the replacement prince, or: why ralsei is like that
here's another question: why does the prophecy hide ralsei's face? because he was wearing a cloak at first, right?
but like... why did toby fox write it that way? what is the point in giving him a cloak that completely obscures his identity, just to have him take it off five seconds later for ANOTHER form that obscures his face? why does the prophecy continue to depict him in a cloak?
I think this is a deliberate choice, meant to call into question the identity of the prince. if the only narrative purpose was to show ralsei opening up, isn't it kind of redundant to do this exact moment again but better at the end of the chapter?
looking at his character: beyond getting the prophecy itself from gaster, he has detailed knowledge of game mechanics you'd only know from experience. yet, some of his knowledge seems outdated: susie can only equip ribbons in the old game.
and like. handing down knowledge and power to the next generation to amend past mistakes is a recurring theme in deltarune, isn't it? gerson is the most potent example of this, but he's not the only one. queen goes from being controlling to urging noelle to choose the world she wants, spamton wonders if the fun gang can break their own strings and joins them... doesn't it make sense that gaster is also doing this? passing this story down to a new prince, so ralsei doesn't make the same mistakes he did?
hell, the japanese text makes this even more blatant:
and if the prince is the one that caused "the final tragedy," if that's why gaster is so personally invested in making things right...
doesn't it make sense that ralsei would devalue himself? try to hide what really happened? make himself as small and forgettable of a presence as possible?
...after all, isn't that exactly what gaster is doing?
mirroring the player: accountability
much like flowey in undertale, I think gaster serves as an in-game mirror of the player's own feelings and behavior. like us, he's curious and determined to find answers no matter the consequences.
people wonder why he seems so attached to this world, yet allows the weird route to happen. but aren't we doing the same thing? he knows just as well as you do that there's three save files, that none of it REALLY matters so long as you get the happy ending when all's said and done.
(the genocide route's wiki page has an entire section on to how to erase any consequences of doing it. wouldn't want to leave a stain on your pacifist ending, would you?)
so, as much as he's trying to rewrite deltarune's ending for a better one, replace himself with someone kinder who can encourage mercy... there's also a less noble element to it, of avoiding responsibility. in other words, ralsei is a literal scapegoat.
gaster offers us the same freedom - a vessel you can control without guilt. you get to shape their will, take credit for their heroism, yet also consider them a separate entity when things go wrong. I think it's interesting that gaster has an "oh right, duh" moment when you name the vessel after yourself, like it's not how he's used to thinking.
like he'd rather do anything but attach his name to his own work.
mirroring the player: friendship from afar
I think there's another aspect of the player that gaster mirrors, though.
when people talk about the soul, about their role in the game, what do they say?
it's a lot of justifications, a lot of "it'd be better if we didn't exist," which is already pretty in line with the picture of gaster we've painted so far. but also...
"I wish I could talk to them. let me tell them I'm sorry. I want to hear them play the piano again."
isn't it interesting that, even though the fun gang has no idea who we are, we already know so much about them? that we already love them, consider them friends on some level?
if gaster was the original prince from the dark, he's already been on an entire adventure with them. they don't know he's here, ever WAS here, and yet he still talks about them so fondly.
of COURSE he'd be excited. if he was "alone in deepest dark," these would be the first friends he's ever made.
and now imagine, after a world-ending calamity (one you might blame yourself for)... none of your friends know who you are. kris doesn't even exist in the underground, so in your eyes, they've lost their entire family. and everyone is just acting like things are normal.
(abandonment is a running theme in deltarune, especially with the secret bosses, and it comes up again here.)
and to make matters worse, the only people you can talk to about this are sans, who keeps his emotions close to the chest and isn't doing so hot himself, and papyrus, who... either doesn't remember or doesn't care. (if gaster was the middle brother in this situation, maybe papyrus was just really young at the time)
...yeah man, that kind of grief and guilt and isolation would tear me apart too.
some misc. things I think are interesting
okay, this is running pretty long, so here's a lightning round of some extra stuff that didn't get its own section:
the shadow crystals have the same water-glass properties as the prophecy, but tainted by shadow. I wonder if they show gaster's own memories or regrets, somehow?
related: a mantle is a sleeveless cloak that hides your arms/hands. is the shadow mantle something he wore before? (if the crystals show his perspective, it'd also explain why kris doesn't see their hand in a way other than "kris loses a limb")
satan is also known as the prince of darkness guys. GUYS.
loss of status or purpose is a huge theme in deltarune and I think "rpg hero who failed to save the world and lost everything" feels pretty in line with that. no wonder he feels so lucky to be needed again.
btw this means there is a younger version of gaster that still exists in this world but, through some interference, has been kept from becoming a hero. this would be a great opportunity to introduce casual players to him, and thinking about how he and ralsei would interact fucking FASCINATES me. also, if you want a cool chapter 5 secret boss who has a relationship with ralsei and can teach fire magic, there you go. maybe he uses the purple soul mode?
conclusion
in conclusion,
okay, in all seriousness: if you've read all this, thank you. this idea has been haunting me ever since I thought of it and I haven't been able to find anyone else proposing it. but I think it works, and despite how out there it sounds, I do have confidence in it.
there's definitely more to consider here, namely "holy shit WHAT did this guy do to fuck up so bad." I think whatever it is will have a lot to do with the knight and how they ended up the way they did, and I do have some vague ideas, but they're still fuzzy so I'll hold off on speculating. (all the references to "seeing as far as you can" and the MANTLE game referencing the weird route in past tense make me extremely concerned, to say the least)
I think gaster being the "original" deltarune's prince from the dark has potential in a lot of ways, but one of the things that fascinates me the most is the relationship he could have with ralsei.
because this theory implies that, in OUR deltarune, there's a younger gaster (sans's little brother, who I'm gonna call wd from here on) that never got to be the hero because of his future self's interference.
and like, can you imagine that relationship on both sides? wd meeting the kid that replaced him, even if he doesn't realize it at first - the truth slowly dawning on him of just what he missed out on? ralsei learning exactly who he was "supposed" to be, and that maybe his all-knowing father figure isn't as infallible as he likes to appear?
both lonely mages with advanced dark world knowledge, both with strong reasons to be jealous of the other. from wd's perspective? ralsei gets to be the hero, go on adventures that any lonely kid would spend their life dreaming of, make his first real friends… and all of that was supposed to be HIS. but his story was over before it even began, his dark world studies made completely irrelevant, because the universe said this story was better off without him. that he was better replaced by a tutorial npc.
and the worst part is, to the untrained eye, ralsei makes it look completely effortless. he knows everything without having to work for it, he's always kind and patient and approachable no matter the circumstances... you meet the person who replaced you, took away the friends you were supposed to have, and they're a better friend than you could ever hope to be. wouldn't you want to burn it all to the ground too?
and ralsei? he meets a version of himself free from the burden of prophecy. someone who is effortlessly himself, not afraid to be reckless or make mistakes or chase after what he wants. all the things he admires most about susie. and while ralsei's healing grows more irrelevant next to noelle and susie, and they face more situations where his pacifist ideals simply aren't enough… wd commands fire magic and blazes through everything with ease - because he doesn't have to fear what happens when someone gets burned. more than anything though, he meets the friend kris and susie were supposed to have…
hey so like is anyone else feeling really cool and normal right now. elaboration under the cut but assumes you're familiar with the cosmic divorce and forgotten prince stuff I've discussed here. this is kind of rambly, you've been warned!!!
who's speaking
so, assuming this is meant to be a character speaking and not Toby From Real Life, I believe this is the knight speaking. it's someone with a similar level of "meta knowledge" to gaster, and they have a bitter and "knowing" personality that resembles the interrupting voice from the gonermaker (who I also believe is the knight). I've seen people say this is eram, but I think eram sounds more joyful and teasing compared to this person's blunt cynicism.
who they're talking to
but like, it really doesn't sound like they're JUST talking about us here. I think this is as much addressing gaster as it is us - if sans's "I know your type" line is about gaster, we've already been likened to the guy. someone so determined, so fixated on a single goal, that they lose sight of what they're even doing and why. the type of person to do a genocide route or a weird route.
so like, the original game was weird route adjacent, right???
I've avoided discussing it on here because frankly the vibes are Awful, but I do think that, if gaster was the prince from the original deltarune, he may have done something akin to the weird route. not The Literal Beat For Beat Weird Route, to be clear! the cruelest part of the weird route is how much it's forced upon everyone involved - because the game mechanics and people like kris have the foresight to try and prevent this, and we keep pushing it anyway. simply put, there's no forcing the thorn back in if no one noticed the rose was hurting her to begin with. (she didn't know it was in there until kris pulled it out.) I don't think gaster wanted to hurt anyone, just got carried away with a game.
and like, gaster of all people - if he was collaborating on this with the knight - would see it as a game, right? noelle compares it to dragon blazers, and I feel like he'd make the same comparison.
and, well. if you treat it all like a game, and you're a tryhard who minmaxes everything (because maybe, these are the first friends you've ever made, and you're a little desperate to impress)… is it so strange to think you might get so fixated on it that you stop treating your friends like real people, and start treating them like party members?
what do you do when you realize your friend could one-shot anything in the game, and it's just out of reach? if she just equips this one little item?
well, it's just a game, right? doesn't she want to get stronger, too? that's the whole point! I mean, no one's actually getting hurt.
…right?
(hey isn't it so cool how berdly's entire narrative is about him being the Number 1 but only because of noelle's help, and how he means well but pushes her into things she's not comfortable with because she's too scared to say no? and how his identity is built on being a Smartboy Elite Gamer but he's deeply insecure about it? I just thought that was interesting.)
I don't know. I think how the sword route is positioned as the "original game," the way the weird route feels like unearthing something, the parallels between gaster and the player, and his characterization as "determined to a fault" paint a picture that's too strong to ignore.
ok back to the emails
if you look at them through this lens, of gaster as the original prince who did some bullshit like this before and is going out of his way to do it again however many years later… of gaster being someone the knight used to consider a partner… yeah, this is fucked!!! it fucks me up!!!
the ferris wheel email references the "red eyes" line from eram - the joy of pushing your skills to the limit in a video game, whether that's the eram fight or the weird route itself. "you'll make it. you always do… don't you?" feels so biting if we consider that the knight was the one left behind and gaster was the one who survived into the new world. really just twisting the knife into the wound about him dodging any consequences of his actions. AND HE'S STILL ALIVE!!! GETTING AWAY WITH IT!!!
the festival email alludes to the whole "being in such a rush / so focused on something you didn't look where you were going" idea from the chapter 4 egg room, which is very much About Gaster. the fact that gaster's doing any of this at all, resetting over and over trying to get the perfect ending he wants, sort of indicates he hasn't fixed the root issue here. he's still so fixated on a goal he ignores what anyone else wants - it's just in a "nicer" direction this time
it's like they said: "you didn't learn a thing from last time." and GOD it's such a cold thing to say. I love it.
I do wonder what "you only need to see her once, and you'll move on" is about. does he want to speak with noelle directly? (if you're of the opinion that he's the one writing our choices and acting as the intermediary "strange voice" who delivers our inputs, maybe chapter 4 was just the beginning of that. "me" is as much us as it is him.) if he views the weird route as a way of getting closure for what happened back then, why is that?
well, it's only a day away. if any of this is even remotely correct, I guess we'll find out. :P
