#demon emperors

[everyluciferaoex]

What do you think about Samael and Lucifer in relation to the Demon Emperors (the Sol)? 

Ideologically and conceptually, I think Samael resonates more with Shemihaza, the Emperor of Creation. Lucifer seems to resonate more with Armumahel, the Emperor of Nothingness, but more conceptually. Samael likes things humans make, the concept of creation. Lucifer likes the idea of returning a united Assiah and Gehenna to “emptiness”, the concept of nothingness. 

We do not know a lot about Armumahel other than he chose to return to nature, like Shemihaza, the Emperor of Creation, and Azazel, the King of Spirits. Also, he helped form the True Cross Order to aid humanity in fighting demons. Therefore, Armumahel would most likely not think well of Lucifer’s end goal, despite him being the Emperor of Nothingness. 

Despite their differences, Samael and Lucifer both admire the capabilities of Armumahel and his kin: the Black Flame’s ability to permanently destroy demons souls, thus actually killing demons so they cannot return to Gehenna nor Assiah. In general, Samael and Lucifer are fine with manipulating both demons and humans to further their goals.

The Demon Emperors (Sol), like Satan, seem to be above all the Demon Kings (Baal) in terms of hierarchy and power. However, they can still be manipulated and tricked by less powerful demons and even humans; Satan is especially prone to being used as a tool, in this regard. Yukio is able to trick Lucifer. Samael’s relationship with Lucifer is also manipulation-based.

Continuation of Ask: "Ultimately, I think both Samael and Lucifer, and the other Baal, were mostly glad when the Sol and Azazel decided to let go of their physical forms and return to nature, as they would move up in the hierarchy without them (before Satan manifested). Samael, though, still has to contend as second in power to Lucifer, who grows more aggrieved over time with the state of his vessels always failing him, resenting Assiah more. I think they were cordial when they saw each other, like Samael and Lucifer are despite being enemies.  

I think Azazel, Armumahel, and Shemihaza deciding to return to nature are seen with a lot of negative judgement from the remaining Baal. Shemihaza’s decision to share so much power with her Nephilim descendants seems to be especially unprecedented and obscene in a demonic sense, as many of the Baal see it as a perversion. Therefore, I think her legacy is seen with a lot more disdain than Azazel and Armumahel. The remaining Baal could probably never be that self-sacrificing for anything or anyone.

Although he sides with humanity, and works with the True Cross Order, Samael would never relinquish himself to nature because he enjoys the experience of the human senses from being in a vessel, describing having said senses as intoxicatingly pleasurable. Though he did let go of his barrier seal for the Artificial Gehenna Gate over letting go of his current body after he got shot, I think he’s possibly more flexible with the idea of returning to Gehenna and finding a new body later, compared to Lucifer, though."

First of all, BRAVO FOR THIS. An honestly amazing surprise within my asks, and I appreciate it so much. I've read over this about four or five times just throughout my workday (once I got it + more throughout the past few days its lived rent free) and I'd LOVE if we could DM sometime and talk more about this because I LOVE discussing nuances in character and goals, as well as what characters may give or take to reach said goals. (Totally up to you though, no pressure!!!)

I agree with the fact that it seems things are very divided in terms of Samael with Shemihaza and Lucifer with Armumanel. 

However, I would like to argue that perhaps the demons are not as divided as we think they may be, simply for the fact that their moralities and values seem to be based upon their reach for more. That's the only way I would describe it as “more”. More fun, more sensation, more bodies, more power. Just more. I’m basing this thought on how it was discussed how the Baal couldn’t seem to let go of the idea of having a vessel since it provides sensations, and they drowned themselves in pleasure once they had a vessel. 

It's curious to see and fit each demon we have seen thus far with this concept. I would like to believe that they were cordial with each of the demons that have chosen to crystalize, at least outwardly. I saw you mentioned the idea of Nephilim being considered perverse. With that, I bring up the question on what the exact process is which makes a clone? Clones could be considered “tools” in such a case, but I’m also wondering where a demon may draw the proverbial line when it comes to such a thing. Do we consider it based wholly on necessity, or basically on "for funsies" like Iblis did when she made a Nephilim? It feels odd for one to look down on creating Nephilim and passing power to them when one has done the same, though there are subtle hints of hypocrisy through those who are demonic.

Part of me also wonders if this is also just what they want fed to us versus the actual “plan” so to speak. Kato in a whole has a way of subtly leading towards one thing then twisting it in a manner that we don’t always expect.

With that too, I also want to draw on how much information we have gotten vs how reliable of a narrator Samael may be. We still don’t know his true endgame, thus we’re all left to trust what we’re told when it could very well be the opposite. While human and demon interactions are based on subtleties (his words), I believe there are likely things we have missed or written off that won’t make sense right this second until later on.

I do agree though that the remaining Baal aren’t exactly self-sacrificing for anyone or anything. You are correct in the fact that Samael in particular would be more willing to give up his body versus Lucifer. Though I will argue that this is also likely due to that search for “more” as I mentioned prior.

We don’t have a full history of Lucifer other than what Samael has told us and then the flashback to section 13 and limited views/interactions involving him. I would like to eventually see at least his side of things. Reactions to his vessel first failing, to losing sensation properly, so on and so forth. I feel like a lot of context could be shown if we have his side of things and not just Samael’s. (There are always three sides to every story; One, The Other, and The Truth.)

Basically, I would like a lot more context before drawing a full theory aside from basing things on how well they fit (like context based off of their own view of the emperors). Not only for archiving purposes but to get a more “whole” look when it comes to characters. Granted, that may just be because social cues and subtext is lost on me at times, but seeing more of the story behind the Baal and Sol would be an absolute treat.

Overall, I think Samael and Lucifer are both playing the long game and taking advantage of what they can and who they can regardless of who or what agrees or disagrees with them. Not completely shocking, but I am curious if the end game is actually what they Say It Is. Nothing is ever that black and white and it feels very black and white with how it's framed, if that makes sense?

Either way, I look forward to seeing what’s coming next! I believe the next chapter is November 3rd and I’m salivating at the thought already. Thank you so much for the ask and I’m so sorry it took so long to answer. I hope it's at least legible.

Much love!

~ MasamuneArts

[silverdphantom]

Rebellion of the Grigori: Myth vs Manga 1. The Grigori’s identities

In the Book of Enoch, 200 angels known as the Grigori, led before by several Leaders, the most well-known being Shemihaza, the main leader, and Azazel, rebelled against God and the rules of their fellow angels. They descended on Earth to have sexual relationships with human women, creating in the process giant and blood-thirsty half-angel beings, called the Nephilim. They also provided the human population with precious, but apparently forbidden, knowledge: war weapon, vagetal spells, course of the moon, reading of the stars, make up...

In the manga, three of the Demon Lords, the two Sol Shemihaza, emperor of Creation, Armumahel, emperor of Nothingness, and the Ba’al Azazel, king of Air, oppose the war against humankind that was driven by their own kind, and especially Lucifer, who was at that time was the most powerful ruler of Gehenna. They conceived with humans half-demon beings known as the Nephilim and provided knowledge, along with Samael, king of Time, on how to fight demons.

Kato has done a great in reappropriating that myth, and I would like to go a bit further in the comparison of the two.

Who are the Grigori ?

In the myth, there are several hundreds of them, and in the manga only three.

- Shemihaza: the main leader of the Grigori. In the manga, the three are supposed to be equals, but Shemihaza looks indeed more active than the other two - but mostly because the Nephilim of this bloodline still have powers, unlike the other two. In the myth, Shemihaza taught the enchantments and vegetal spells, which match pretty well the kind of powers we have seen being displayed, limked to plants. Kato go even even further, giving Shemihaza and their Nephilim the ability to nuture and influence life itself.

- Armumahel: this one is not usually named among the Grigori’s leaders, though I have seen the name being mentionned, without any precision. One other that could correspond to our Armumahel is Armaros, one the leaders, who taught how to cancel enchantments. In the manga, enchantments and magic comes from the demons and Armumahel and his Nephilim can nullify all of that. Here again, Kato develop even more that aspect, and the power of Armumahel is to destroy everything that is linked to the spiritual world, let it be demons or human souls. She even created the concept of the Black Flames of Gehenna, the spiritual world, as opposed to the red fire of Assiah, the physical world.

- Azazel: though not as powerful as Shemihaza, he is even more well-known as a fallen angel, for teaching mankind how the create weapon and fight, the most forbidden knowledge of all. There is no particular relationship between Azazel and the air element in the myth, except, for the angel/wing part I guess. But we can link his teaching to the idea of Azazel teaching humans how to defend themselves against demons, something that probably outraged his siblings.

In the myth, there were also lots of other Grigori angels who created Nephilim. Maybe we can assimilate them in the manga to the other demons who mated with humans and conceived Nephilim children, such as Izumo’s demon ancestors. Their descendants have also special power and knowledge that are pretty useful for the Exorcists today.

Next time : the causes of the Rebellion