#discourse dump

[l-tothe-og]

what happened again? tell plz

Oh lord. OK. Sooooo... Once upon a time I got an ask that basically said the fem!luke part of lucemond was starting to use Luke as a fem self insert and generally starting to take the feminization over the top. I responded to it and said I agree. Me myself personally, I feel that when luke has a vagina and socially recognized terms for women (wife, mother, queen) are used for him and abo dynamics are being used as a way to eliminate any question on the top/bottom dynamic are in a fic that ALSO relies on misogynistic stereotypes it starts to become problematic to me. So I do not interact with them. Some people viewed me saying I don't interact with them bc I find fics that contain Any of those characteristics (specifically luke with a vagina)to be like immoral or whatever. Somehow they also got that I thought nobody should read or be allowed to create them from that.

This caused people to get riled up bc there was other discourse going on at the time regarding the sameish debate. I answered a few asks (X, Y, Z + some more from 2/15 if u feel like going thru my archive) that were all restating what I said above. Somehow, thru mangled misrepresentations of what I said, or thru their own misinterpretations this shit got brought to Twitter where I do not often frequent. I was told abt some shit talking abt me on Twitter, and saw a tweet that mentioned me and talking as if I said I dislike all fics in which Luke is given a vagina (fundamentally untrue). In this thread I was being called a transphobe, a narrative that continues either through ignorance of the meaning of the word or misunderstanding of what I've said, so I responded and was like haha erm never said anything implying what ur saying I said. Got ratioed hard by people saying shit like "lukoochie rights" and "some people want to see Luke's pussy on aemonds dick" which again is a fundamental misunderstanding bc I don't give af abt lukoochie. Write luke with a vagina all u want ive never said that bothers me and why do these ppl care so much abt pretending i did? Lmao tho I do think the term is a bit objectifyng.

So whatever. Drama dies down on my end, but from what i hear i never left lucemond twitters top 10 hated users (if that's untrue ill delete this bit i just heard it second hand. i do not interact with lucemond twitter. anyway i digress).

I listen to ppl in my ask saying there's some nuance that's been missed from the trans side of the fandom and am like love more context (Anon 1, Anon 2's response, Anon 1's response to that) and it doesnt change my opinion bc there wasn't anything they said that was at odds with my og thoughts and opinions.

Anyway, i get a prompt for aemond in lace and I write it with some feminization for fun and to add a little emotional depth to a pwp. Feminization. U know. The thing I never said I was abjectly against but people somehow got that from me saying I personally don't interact with extreme feminization fics bc they don't sit right with me. Keep in mind I've been getting anon hate for pretty benign posts ever since, posting some, blocking others for weeks.

Comment section on the fic explodes with people calling me a transphobe, hypocrite, and most offensively because i know the others are based in unfounded anger and misconception, a plagiarizer of a fic I hadn't read and isn't similar beyond lingerie. Anons start harassing people that commented on the fics as readers, and fighting anons that defend me. It's a mess. The two asks I posted earlier are in reference to the comment section but here, anon, is my side of the drama with full context nd rceipts.

[spinjitzuhottakes]

Lloyd Garmadon - A brief look at Shipping and Discourse

Right, figure I'd start off with a bang and light myself up like a firework on new years cause what better way to make my first discussion on this blog than be about Lloyd, one of the most discoursed characters to ship in this dang fandom.

Let me just say this.

I don't actively ship Lloyd with anyone. A lot of the opinions surrounding Lloyd in a romance makes it difficult for me to do so, its even more difficult when Lloyd is the character who gets shipped 90% of the time with a fan oc character. (No shame there if you do that, its just something I've very much noticed.)

However. HOWEVER.

I still have in fact, read and viewed fancontent which contains Lloyd in a romantic or sexual relationship. Some of that content does in fact include ships with the main cast, particularly the main 4.

And yes, some of this content is in fact in the universe of the show, not the movie (which tbh is a whole other topic that I probably will touch at a later point cause I have noticed things about the fandom and the show that were caused by the movie releasing)

Why is that?

Cause the art is really cute and the fanfic premise is really interesting or honestly really sweet.

Anyway.

My point is, is that while I don't actively ship Lloyd with anyone, I still have chosen to read and look at things that depict that sort of thing.

And some of those things? They were pretty explicit and sometimes I did feel the need to scroll and fastforward through the scene.

However I still chose to look at those of my own volition and not just because of the...well content. (not usually)

For fanfics, it was how the story was laid out to me, I was usually drawn to those things due to the premise, sometimes they were pretty grim and tragic in a way.

Why is that?

Something I will honestly admit is that when it comes to fandom fanfic as a whole, Ninjago is a fandom I don't really read E rate smut fics for, it's never been that sort of fandom for me. If I do read something mature or explicit here, it really is honest to god not for the pure 18+ content in there.

Cause good lord, some of those explicit fics honestly need a revision or three.

The fics and content I have viewed and found interesting, usually has to do in some regards to how Lloyd in a relationship (explicit or otherwise) would work and honest to god conflict.

Especially given how much we as the fandom remember the situation regarding the tomorrow tea.

Lloyd's situation with the tomorrow tea actually reminds me of a character in my favourite anime. But i'll get into that in a later topic that talks more about Lloyd's age.

Point is, Lloyd's situation is not really the first time I've seen this happen in media and is one of the reasons why shipping Lloyd is actually quite fascinating even if it gets seriously fucking annoying when I have to deal with fandom.

Now, heres the first hurdle, what about Lloyd's age. He's practically eight/twelve and morally its wrong to ship him.

So...i'm just gonna say this. I actually think to suggest something like that really does a disservice to Lloyd as a whole.

Something that has been stated as canon and what I feel was meant to always be implied by the creators is that when Lloyd used the Tomorrow Tea, He was infact permenantly aged up to be the roughly same age as the rest of the cast. He needed to become their equal storywise. It was basically their way of getting around the fact that they had no idea how to make Lloyd as a 8-12 year old reasonably fight his dad/the dark one and have it not seem seriously messed up compared to what would essentially be a teenager fighting him.

Which even though its less messed up, it still is messed up. Wtf destiny.

For reasons I may or may not also further address at a later date in the same talk about Lloyds age, I also honestly believe that Lloyd needing to age up to be same age as the cast was needed for his development and any concept that deletes or reverses that fact has to have a very good reason to do so, otherwise it just seems like they're reversing an essential part of Lloyds story.

And I enjoy exploring content that touches upon the result of that, because the conflict that can be drawn from that is really interesting! Especially if it has to do with romance!

However this honestly leads into the other elephant in the room. And something that gets reasonably talked about and I understand where the thought comes from.

The power dynamics between age and experiance can seem off and at times uncomfortable when it comes to Lloyd being shipped with any of the Ninja. I understand where people are coming from with that, particularly when it comes to pre season 8 to 10 interpretations of the team and Lloyd. Lloyd is very much still seen by a lot of people (and the fandom) during this time as the youngest in the group even though he is roughly the same age as everyone. (Like truthfully, if anything the youngest he'd be is Nya's age.)

Heck they even joke about it multiple times hilariously enough. s5 and s8 with the voice jokes?

Post s10 though? Its a lot more less of a thing. Aside from the occasional joke about Lloyd not knowing what a VCR is (cause he's the kid in the group you guys remember?.) The would be power dynamic and age imbalance between him and the others is less apparent and I'm pretty sure if someone came into the series post s10, they would only know Lloyd as being the leader of the ninja and the same age as the others and not as that gremlin kid from s1.

That's because that's how Lloyd has been developed into, He's in full context basically just like the others now, like what his movie form is (which is also another topic I'd like to talk about at a later point about how the movie changed the show in a few ways)

The only reason a lot of people think otherwise is due to the fact we have context of previous seasons that truthfully does affect us. A lot of people still see and H/C Lloyd as being a lot younger than the other characters and therefore its morally wrong to ship him with the other Ninja and if you do, you should burn at the stake.

But, that's dumb. Like really dumb.

Exploration of these topics is risky yeah and it can lead to some questionable things. But honestly it shouldn't be completely demonized. These sorts of things can act as a sort coping material for folks struggling on those issues.

It really isn't hurting anyone and if you say its harming you, than maybe you should ask yourself why you chose to read/look at the thing in the first place instead of blaming the person who made it.

Why would you eat the food if you know you hate the taste? Thats like asking for olives when you detest olives

Listen I'm not gonna lie...I've seen some questionable stuff tagged in the Ninjago tag and the fanfic section of ao3. But I knew not to touch it.

Why?

Cause I knew I wasn't for me.

This is a mindset I honestly wish a lot of people in this fandom could pick up. If someone is being a genuine threat to the fanbase then yeah, maybe there's a reason for concern.

However, someone shipping two characters together is NOT that reason. No matter how much you try to tell yourself.

- H.T

[l-tothe-og]

I don't mean this in a hateful way, I'd just like to give my perspective on some of the discourse since I'm unable to get it out of my head. As someone who greatly enjoys bottom Aemond and switching fics, I was already pretty drained by the t/b discourse, but the fem Luke stuff nearly took me out.

I see your points, but I find that the criticisms of Luke having a vagina don't really leave much room for gender queerness. I'm trans and when more fics like that started popping up on ao3, I was excited because I assumed that it was a space for trans Luke characterizations that was just opening up. Some of them weren't to my taste, but others I found very validating. As for intersex Luke, I understood it as a way in which some authors tried to implement trans identities in the canon setting without a/b/o and while trying to preserve some realism.

I'd like to advocate for more nuance in this discussion and point out that Luke having female genitalia doesn't automatically make him a woman. I'm sure I'm not the only trans guy in this fandom and it would be nice if it would continue to be a space for exploration of trans identities.

Purr great opinion and nothing is hateful if you don't mean it to be.

As for nuance, I think you're correct in that there's nuance to the situation and im glad you found some of the fics validating.

My problem has very explicitly never been just with Luke having a vagina in an inordinate number of fics.

My problem is the feminization esp in abo to the point of being physically and, in the often poorly developed society, socially a woman (being called a wife, bearing children, often having breasts, wearing feminine clothing and makeup, as well as baring the societal weight of what is essentially misogyny)... and yes a vagina is part of that. Remove the he/him pronoun and nothing differentiates an omega in these stories from being a woman. And then they go an make that character that is functionally a woman embody nearly every misogynistic stereotype, and simultaneously reinforce hetereonormative ideas of sex and sexuality by literally assigning a character bottom at birth.

The fics I have a problem with are not trying to break any molds or explore trans identity. They are the fetish porn and/or portrayals that I believe are problematic and not worth engaging with To Me.

Non fetish content trans/omega with any type of agency luke fics exist and I don't have a problem with them. They make up a majority of the lucemond fandom so I've read quite a few and enjoyed them even.

But also there's such a large audience for the shit I don't like I can't really be pitching rocks at everyone who does. Maybe I'm missing some grand detail between my ew and their awe. Idk and frankly idc.

Ur right abt nuance tho and again, I'm glad u found some fics to be validating 2 u !! <3

Anon response to this post

[l-tothe-og]

Hi, another two cents from the first trans anon:

I was glad to see that the other commenter replied in such a respectful way! Of course both our experiences with the fics are valid! And I agree, despite having been excited about the recent development in the fandom and finding validity in parts of the writing, some feminization in fics made me feel dysphoric. When it comes down to it, though, I believe in taking responsibility for myself regarding the content I consume and not policing what others create. The creative freedom ao3 allows is something very valuable, imo.

And while there sadly aren't that many fics in the trans luke tag so far, I personally really like a couple of them. I don't know how many of the authors are trans themselves, but I for one don't think it's right to make authors have to out themselves for their work to be valid, and for the other believe that with the right intent and knowledge, cis writers can do a trans story justice.

To the other anon: I hope we'll get some more stories like that in the future and that your engagement with lucemond content isn't making you dysphoric!

(This anons first ask)

(The reply)

:))) thank u both for participating in respectful discourse. appreciate you and a difference in perspective always

[l-tothe-og]

The thing I found most hilarious about the recent Discourse was people were acting like this was the first time this take on MLM was given and how DARE the poster when come on - some version of that take has ALWAYS existed as a critique of yaoi or BL, particularly the uke/seme dichotomy. For many years people have criticized that portrayal as inaccurate and portraying harmful gay stereotypes. Quite a few proponents of that criticism are gay men, who are especially cynical be most enjoyers of BL are not gay men, but women.

Now I don't even agree with all the criticism of BL, but this is nothing new.

I also found that funny. Did they think we were the first fandom go through this? That their enjoyment of aemond thrashing his big fat dick inside of lukes quivering boypussy was unique, original? that they were the first people to fight back against accusations of phobias and isms bc of their fetish porn?

Nothing new has been said during this drawn out argument. There's no more nuance than theres ever been before. Only more people who believe their contribution of something new and beautiful is being flogged in the town square by puritans. Y-fucking-awn.

[l-tothe-og]

Lucemond stans threatening doxxing and r*pe and murder over that discourse?? Have u seen those??? Actually fucking disgusting. How do they allow themselves to be associated with those kinds of ppl 🤮🤮 You're one of the only stans reasonable here fr u go maam keep it real

Ok... I have yet to see the death/rape threats with my own two eyes so I'm not going to comment specifically on that. But I will say that there has been some wildly horrific shit going on during this whole discourse and it needs to fucking stop. That reaction to your own perception of someone calling what u like immoral or wrong is fucked! Regardless of whether the content is wrong, if ur sending anon hate or being otherwise a Supreme hater u are the villain. U are the loser. U are the immoral garbage bag full of shit and rocks you thought they were calling u in the first place. Nobody has a moral highground on the incest vs rape vs misogyny level, fine, but the moment u sent anon hate the person u sent it to became moral Jesus on that front

[l-tothe-og]

lmcd twt acting like they are in the clear from valid criticism just because their ship is already problematic. we understand that, and we aren't trying to take the moral high ground. if you think that you have completely jumped over the whole arguement.

just saying though if you took someone answering a question about THEIR interest on THEIR blog page then maybe just maybe YOU'RE the insane delulu one here and not them. critical thinking everyone we can do it !!

This is also a take i think was missed in the drama... fandom does not exist in a vacuum. Shipping does not exist in a vacuum. Tropes do not exist in a vacuum. This is fiction yo but im here, queer and ready to look internally and figure out what the fiction I like perpetuates! no moral highground involved. if u were truly unrepentant abt liking what u like and didn't believe you were participating in anything maybe not great then you wouldn't be mad at me for saying I dislike the thing u like bc it does not align with my personal values and preferences.

I can't defend u from ur own shame and it shouldn't be my job to.

[l-tothe-og]

The whole a/b/o thing screams loophole on female lucerys. I dont mind a few fics but a whole lot of them is kinda suspicious

That's literally all it is. Like... that's the one. Ding ding ding.

Which is funny bc I don't typically think abo is all that feminizing. It's often used as another layer of social power/dynamics that I think is mad interesting even if its not for me as a person. But the way Loohcemond does it is another thing