#fatws meta

[conjuringfox]

In my opinion:

James ‘Bucky’ Barnes should not have been a Congressmen in Thunderbolts*

He could either be working for Sam, continuing to track down old Hydra agents like in FATWS, or anything else

I don't think he would trust the government enough to join Congress after SHIELD was Hydra the whole time (also don't think he would win an election but that's besides the point)

[narniangirl1994]

On the whole Bucky and Ayo thing - I don't see why everything has to be all or nothing with this fandom. Watching the episode, I don't think either one was entirely in the right or the wrong.

Bucky was arguably in the wrong for freeing Zemo, knowing how dangerous he is and what his freedom would mean to the people of Wakanda. He freed the man who killed their leader and couldn't even bother to try to talk to them about it/give them a heads up. After everything they did for him, that would definitely be perceived as a betrayal.

(Not to mention, he's hypocritical for criticizing Karli's 'means' when he himself just referred to Zemo as a 'means' to an end.)

As for Ayo, I felt she and the other Dora Milaje were quick to resort to lethal violence when it came to Walker. He was being completely disrespectful and shouldn't have put his hand on her shoulder, but she straight up tried to kill him with her spear for not immediately ceding to her wishes. Everyone keeps saying Bucky betrayed her again by trying to stop her from taking Zemo, but that's not what he was doing. He was stepping in to try to reason with her and keep her from killing Walker.

So when she did the thing to remove Bucky's prosthetic arm, it wasn't even directly related to recapturing Zemo. She of all people knows just how much Bucky's bodily autonomy has been violated over the years. Keeping that secret from him and then using it to remove the limb they gave him could arguably be viewed as a betrayal, because no one ever let him know the arm had a fail safe and what was seen as an important gift can apparently be revoked. Bucky now doesn't know whether he can trust a part of his body and likely feels like he can't fully trust the Wakandans anymore since they used a part of his body against him.

I'm not saying it's anywhere near as bad as the way others have used his body against him of course, but her actions clearly sent a message that the Wakandans have more control over that part of his body than he knew.

Essentially, both of them broke each other's trust (although to be fair, Bucky did it first and Ayo wasn't the one who actually designed the arm). But it's clear they both respected and cared for each other and are now feeling hurt by the other's actions.

Hopefully they can make up with one another before the end of the season, and Bucky especially can apologize for the pain he put the Wakandans through as a result of his actions.

[marvelousescapism]

Unpopular (?) opinion about the serum...

I don’t think the serum necessarily increases any kind of personality traits within a person when they take it. What the serum is representative of is power - not just physical, but power in general. And when people gain power, they don’t necessarily change as a person, but it reveals things about them.

When Steve Rogers took the serum, he didn’t become a better person. That little kind-hearted spitfire of a man with brittle bones and shitty lungs was no less brave than the muscular hunk he became after the serum. What changed was that the serum gave him power, and because of that people could finally see his bravery and goodness. Because people don’t look twice at disabled people, but they’ll pay attention to a military poster boy built like a brick house.

When John Walker took the serum, he didn’t become a more violent, angry man. It just allowed him to express his violence and anger in a more catastrophic way. Because that’s what power allows people to do. When you have more power, your good deeds are more visible, more impactful - and so are your misdeeds.

And I think it’s really interesting, considering the title and theme of the episode, that almost as soon as John took the serum - as soon as he gained this new power - everyone saw his darker side. Everyone realises that John Walker wasn’t such a great guy all along.

[reijamira]

About Sam inviting Bucky to meet his family.

I wonder why Sam’s doing this. In episode 2 he clearly states he will squash this fight between them and after the mission is accomplished they’re going to never see each other again. And then next episode he takes Bucky to his family? Mmh, I wonder if this has something to do with the meeting with Zemo. Maybe Sam sees how agitated Bucky is after it and thinks it’s best not to let him wander off alone?

I can’t wait for that third episode!

EDIT: So no Bucky in Louisiana in episode 3. Wonder why they’ve put it in the promo. But holy fuck did episode 3 kick ass. So many feels right now!

[dragonly-plateau]

There are a lot of great reasons why Sam and Bucky work well together, but one thing I just remembered is that in The Winter Soldier Sam mentions to Cap that he leads a therapy group at the VA for veterans suffering from PTSD. And there are lots of reasons why he and Bucky /work/ together, but that compassion and checking in, especially when Bucky is distant and suppressing stuff? Those are instincts Sam has honed for a long time.

[your-dar-ling]

Spoilers for Episode 4 of The Falcon and the Winter Soldier

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Karli Morgenthau talks about how struggle creates community. But all American culture has ever been concerned with is power. And since white people have been sitting at the top of this nation for 250 years, when they don't have power, they have *nothing.* Now this happens in 3 places.

John Walker, obviously, loses his MIND at the concept of his own perceived helplessness. But more interestingly are Bucky and Lemar.

Bucky

There's an interesting comparison drawn multiple times throughout this episode between John and Bucky. When Ayo disabled Bucky's arm, he looks as if she killed his firstborn. He looks terrified and helpless. Despite all his misgivings, Bucky is just another version of John Walker, just a much societally palatable one because instead of literally murdering people, he self-isolates. They're trying to be like Cap. They're afraid that maybe they aren't as good as they think they are because of their dubious pasts.

We have to remember that Bucky did not get the time to heal. After Civil War, Steve (well-meaningly) put Bucky through all his same traumas over again. Prematurely given a powerful weapon, forced to fight in a war, essentially dying and coming back years later, abandoned by time. Bucky does not know who he is without Captain America, without Steve. All he has left is power. So he clings to that arm like his life depends on it, because...well not to be morbid but I think it does.

Lemar

Poor Lemar. Despite what people believe, black people are not exempt from White America's supremacy narrative. Lemar is a prime example. He drinks their koolaid and sells his soul to be a soldier in white supremacy's army and a sidekick to a white supremacy's hero.

Lemar believes that power makes people "more of themselves," which isn't a bad idea in itself. But Lemar shares that same blindness with John Walker, the belief that they are unequivocally good, and that their enemies are unequivocally enemies. So it follows that with more power, good people can do more good, because they are good and that goodness is an inherent state of being and not a choice.

I wonder who spread around that idea?

Lemar understands that he's done some bad things in the past but he does not believe that makes him bad. He does not extend the same courtesy to Karli (although he is more willing to do so than his white counterpart John), perhaps because, unlike Karli, he worked under the jurisdiction of a government, stupidly believing he was creating peace by fighting their war. But as Ultron says to the Avengers, "I believe you're confusing peace with quiet."

Anyways, the true tragedy is that Lemar didn't get to live to see how right he was. He died, weak and helpless. Never having chosen anything for himself.

Conclusion

The core issue of everyone in this narrative is their idealizations about Cap. Everyone on "America's" side believed him to be unequivocally good. Everyone else believed him to be the opposite, namely Karli. But even Karli is trying to replicate Captain America in her own way, as one of her soldiers says.

Zemo gets much closer to the truth because he's "just a guy," but he also inherently distrusts the Avengers for personal reasons, and has a bit of a God complex himself, so...he's a bit biased.

The only one who truly understands is Sam. He can see the power and the struggle, the unfairness and the privilege. He chooses to give up Cap's shield and he would choose not to take the super serum because the truth is that

Steve wasn't perfect, Steve was lucky.

Steve was always able to just scrape by, able to get what he wanted in the end, in no small part due to his identity (we see what they did to the black surviving super soldier). But Cap made this mess. Cap left Bucky behind and traveled back 80 years, somehow managing not to solve a single problem of the system of which he is supposed to be an embodiment that won't allow Sam's sister to get a goddamn loan. Cap was good, but he wasn't even the best of them. I think Sam is the best of them. And if he knows what's best for them, he won't pick that shield back up.

[andarthas-web]

Zemo - blaming others for the guilt he carries?

Here's the thing...people tend to blame other the hardest for something when they carry more guilt than they can bear for what happened.

So...what was HYDRA doing in Sokovia?

And how much was Zemo involved in them being there?

I figure that it was others who allowed HYDRA to set up base in Sokovia, after all, Zemo was just one member of the ruling class among many.

And I guess at first, he tolerated them, then came to loathe them.

What if it was HIM who tipped off the Avengers about the base?

What if it was his son was a fan of the Avengers and first suggested it?

What if his wife enthusiastically agreed?

What if he had hoped they would destroy HYDRA, which they DID…but then Tony's carelessness created Ultron, who returned to Sokovia, and this led to Zemo's wife and son dying in the debris from the falling city. What if Zemo lies awake at night, wondering if his wife and son were still alive if he had not laid out the breadcrumbs that led the Avenger into Sokovia?

[andarthas-web]

Are the Dora Milaje and Bucky setting Zemo up?

I think there is a small but distinct chance that the Dora Milaje coming in at EXACTLY the moment where John Walker was trying to claim Zemo for himself (and not before) might be an elaborate set-up. Because for one, it made sure Walker didn't get his hands on Zemo. Also, it is pretty clear that Zemo is keeping secrets and NOT sharing everything he knows with the rest of the class. But let Zemo think he got away and is now scot-free to do whatever he thinks needs doing?

While equipping him with a tracker in a quiet moment when he's distracted?

That might just be enough rope for him to hang himself with, or rather lead those who follow him to the goal. Also, the Winter Soldier IS trained in that kind of subterfuge and underhanded tactic, as seen with Zemo's breakout, and I wouldn't put it past the Dora Milaje either, so it'd fit the bill.