The "Robin Mantle" is actually Dick's lightsaber... which Bruce took and keeps passing down to padawans.
Bruce took Dick's lightsaber and gave it Jason and then to Tim and etc.
So the "Robin Mantle" equals Dick's lightsaber as well as the padwanship here. Which, given Robin was never intended to be a mantel much like a lightsaber is not intended to be passed down… fits
Bruce is in a Dooku type situation where-in he inherited a planet to govern and a Title. Alfred is running things as Regent in his absence.
Bruce Repudiates Dick and throws him out of the order when Dick turned 16 after a bad encounter with the universe Joker equivalent
Bruce does not do this through proper channels. Dick "leaves" the order with no resources or second chance as should be afforded him.
This... can go in a bunch of directions. From Dick getting adopted into a Mandalorian clan and living his best life (fanon and canon need to stop riding him), to Dick retroactively being made a Knight and having the base he sets up on maybe Corillia (Titans California equiv haha) likewise legitimized by the High Council, or throw in a take where Dick meets disgraced and secretly long fallen bounty hunter/Sith Nasaade (formerly Wilson, but his Mandalorian wife took his name, both boys and the planet in their violent divorce) resulting in Dick later training Rose etc. etc. Lots of fun mix & match potential in there!
I like the 'Runs into Slade (antagonistically) + Sets up Titans equiv combo. We get the weird Slade & Dick relationship and the titans vs JLA friction -- (it also let's us let Roy have an equivalent addiction-arc with the Darkside bc there's another fanon v canon tidbit I see get warped-)
Bruce takes on Jason like, two months later. Not from the creche but via yoinking him out of the under levels of Coruscant. (Bruce this now looks like a Habit)
Which, good for Jason and yes it results in a sweep of the under city for unreported force sensitives
(baby Jason scoffs at this while being secretly hopeful - very baby Anakin "when are we going to free the slaves" sort of hope...)
Can you IMAGINE.
Bruce, getting caught in the cafeteria with a ravenously hungry kid wearing Dick’s clothes: This is Jason, my new Padawan.
The council, very aware they have not knighted Grayson: Your WHAT.
Jason still dies at 15 when he runs off planet to meet with his birth mother who sells him (young force sensitives ALWAYS sell well so it's not all that different.)
Jason Todd Falls, but doesn't become a Sith. (Just a Fallen/Dark force user. Also a Night Magic equiv test subject. I'd argue he can use one or two night magic style tricks, but they're limited. Jason doesn't see it that way tho of course. The horrible Gotham Knights trampoline soul bounce. Minor shadow walking - to explain how he stealth tanks.)
Jason does indeed return to Coruscant to take over the under city levels, attacks Tim in the lower levels of the Temple (because Jason's codes all still work, of course and the Xantos parallels are RIGHT THERE), and does his best to make Master Wayne Fall. He is no more successful than his DC counterpart.
Talia has a hand in Jason's recovery, as per canon. Talia still thinks Bruce'll leave (the Order) for her. She's still wrong. Damian's backstory doesn't really change at all here so that's fun.
Tim more or less forces his way into being Bruce's Padawan.
He figures out Jedi Master Wayne is self destructing and he forsakes his rich family to join the Order.
So no Tim wasn't in the creche.
He was a force sensitive who wasn't given up bc his parents wanted to use him as an eventual heir to take over their company etc and mind tricks would be a great tool to do that. Tim as in canon objects bc he's not close with his parents and like in canon was basically living through his obsession and para-social bond with Dick Grayson...
So Tim more or less hacks in to the Order and instates himself as Wayne's Padawan.
By the time anyone REASONABLE finds out, the 14 year old has been there for a few months and no one wants to send the force sensitive but clearly troubled kid BACK to his asshole parents.
Wayne skirts free of real consequences again.
Tim slots in like he’s never been anywhere else and is readily adopted into a group of padawans all conveniently his age
Sabers
Bruce: Copper
Dick:
First lightsaber (a light staff) was taken by Bruce. A green blade dappled with shades of yellow.
Current (/second-whatever) lightsaber is dual crystal splittable staff that is mostly kept separated for dual wielding
Dark blue and gold
Cass
Bright yellow, shorter than typical for her height, very dangerous blade.
Cass' saber cannot be used in sparring matches because it causes burns even at the lowest setting.
Cass rarely ever lights her saber, even for ranged-defense
Spoiler: She does't need to :)
Jason
Robin Saber, recovered by Bruce along with his corpse
Red
Jason's new blade has an audible thrum when lit which reflects the fact that the blade has a very strong pull (i.e. the blade wants to move forward. It's hard to pull or direct blows with this blade). It has one gear, forward. This plays well with Djem So but makes using other styles incredibly difficult.
He bled a crystal gifted by Talia for just this purpose. It's a Proper Sith Crystal in that way. (ideally, the story would slowly track the color shifting as Jason heals himself from his own darkness and Talia’s manipulations... But canon doesn't do that either so idk what color would result of said in process healing.)
Tim
Robin Saber
Taken from him by Alfred just like in canon where he, also, had no right or reason to be doing this nonsense.
Makes his own while on his vision quest for Bruce
Light blue (think aquamarine) light staff
Stephanie
Bright purple (duh)
A little longer than expected for someone her height, which gives her surprising reach in her attacks
Damian
The Robin lightsaber
Given to him by Alfred (just to highlight how ridiculous that was in canon)
Builds his own, with Dick, later on
Spring green.
(Damian thinks it looks like the Pit Equiv. Dick claims it's more like new growth green, spring green. The color comes from using the crystal of Dick's first, original, blade with the one Damian finds.)
Styles
Djem So
Bruce
Jason
Ataru
Dick - Jar'kai specifically (he's likely the master of this style in verse)
Jason - Jason still busts out the Ataru he picked up from Dick and (much like Qui-Gon in canon) it never fails to throw off an opponent bc no one expects a brick house to move like that
Note that Liam Neeson (in real life haha) is four inches taller than Jason Todd
Jason is 6'0" at the tallest. Liam was 6'4" when he played Qui-on, meaning he'd be of height with Slade Wilson and Kori/Starfire and taller than Clark Kent. Scales.
Shii Cho
Cass's preferred form (she is the unequivocal master of this form in verse)
Tim, until his RR equivalent phase, some Ataru (Dick's training) and Makashi
Damian initially, later Ataru (Dick's training) and Makashi
Juyo/Vapaad
Cass' main form
Niman
Dick's second form
Makashi
Ra's [not a bat but see below]
Tim
Picked up from Ra's during his vision quest for Bruce. Tim is uncomfortable bc it fits him well and that's a struggle for him.
Damian
Damian wants to use Djem So but he's not even 5'0 yet when he starts so it's still Shii Cho, Ataru (bc Dick is his teacher), and later he settles on Makashi as well. (Which I decided BEFORE realizing Ra's would also use a form of that style so even more mixed feelings for Tim and Damian, oof
Extended Author's Notes for "Bang (Let's Go Out With-)(I Hit the Ground-)(Wait a Minute-)"
For this fic here on A03.
"A Scarecrow breakout leads to a night that no one will ever forget. OR
Under the influence of Fear gas, Nightwing intentionally executes the Joker with the Red Hood's gun when he sees the clown attack Jason in front of him. Unfortunately for Jason, Dick is just aware enough to know he's under the effects of Fear and is certain he's hallucinating the entire thing even though this Jaybird is a lot bigger than the one he's used to seeing."
This was supposed to purely be Jason & Dick. Like the planned speaking parts were ONLY Jason, Dick and (briefly) Joker. Every other character who talks invited themselves to the story as they appear.
Later; “You cannot tell what drugs you’re on based on licking your teeth.” “Can too.” “…” “…” “Fuck off!” “Haha!”
I borrowed/ripped/riffed off so many direct quotes in here from the comics. Last Laugh, Forever Evil, Batman 635, Spyral, Gotham Wars, Nightwing Vol 2. They’re not meant as Easter Eggs or anything I just genuinely got lazy with the character’s spoken lines because finding character voice is HARD.
I left it intentionally vague as to what Bruce is up to, what he’s thinking, and why he’s doing what he’s doing. Jason is an uncharitable narrator when it comes to Bruce generally and is especially so on this topic in particular so… make of that as you will. I think I put in enough hints for people to draw a few different conclusions but I’m curious to see what people think.
On that note, this fic feels more than a little rushed to me… but I really, REALLY, tried to avoid making it a chapter fic. I finally dropped the cut off where it was because I realized my drafted ending might not be everyone’s cup of tea.
I had too much fun with the very real idea that the reader knew Dick killed the Joker but Jason’s POV is that it would be such a leap for anyone to put those pieces together in the absolute chaos that ensued. A burning, collapsing building and a Scarecrow event meant that the chances of someone finding the corpse should have been low. Even then, logic ought to dictate that Jason was the killer… except everyone else who would hold Dick accountable knows about Last Laugh! So it’s really NOT a giant leap in logic to find a gun, the Joker shot to death, and one of Nightwing’s gloves and go “oh.” / “oops, he did it again.”
Head Count of “Who Knows About Last Laugh” in Canon:
Stephanie! This was her first canonic meeting of Nightwing. :D
Tim. He pulls Dick off Joker’s corpse.
Barbara. She and Dick meet and actually talk through the pros/cons and consequences of Dick killing the Joker after they believe he’s killed Tim. Dick approaches that chapel with full premeditated intent to kill. He gets cold feed, goes for an arrest, and then Joker antagonizes Dick by saying Jason’s name. And Dick beats that SOB till his armored gloves fall apart and Joker’s heart stops beating.
Helena B. aka Huntress. Bruce makes her revive Joker.
Bruce. He shows up and moralizes and demands they save the Joker.
A note - can anyone confirm if it's "the Joker" or just "Joker"? I've seen it both ways over the years now and am just unsure now.
Dick’s firing speed and accuracy aren’t impossible but they are absurd, especially given the conditions he’s operating under. He is, however, canonically a crack shot based on commentary from back when he first took the Officer Exams and later during his time in Spyral. Jason has good reason to be surprised by it given his knowledge about Dick’s weapons of choice is very limited (based on his missing memories and the fact that Dick has not spoken to anyone about Spyral period.)
Dick’s grip strength is not a joke given his childhood and regular practice on the trapeze as well as martial arts, free climbing and other activities. I’m relatively certain he can break thicker bones (never mind the delicate bones in hands and fingers) with his grip alone. Jason is absolutely going to be bruised to shit. I didn’t use the phrase ‘bone bruise’ lightly here.
Dick’s immunity to Fear Toxin appears in only one set of comics but the fact that he’s resistant to Fear Toxin has been referenced a few times in addition to the fact that it pisses Jonathan Crane off almost as much as it fascinates him. (This is partly why he goes out of his way to pose as a Dr during the Ric Grayson Arc!)
Dick, waking up: Huh, the come down sucks but that trip was actually super cathartic.
The news, still screaming:
Multiple heroes, scattered around and also asleep with their weapons at hand:
Jason, conked out right next to Dick:
Dick, processing all that again from the top: …Oh. Oh, fuck.
Dick is never, not once, at any point, certain that he’s awake during the course of these events. He plays it off relatively well at points but he is tripping balls and suffering from blood loss. He’s aware enough to know he’s been dosed and wounded and pretty much nothing else. Which says a lot about the choices he makes and leans into, or at least it does for me.
Jason has yet to win a fight against Bruce and he’s at a disadvantage here given I’ve: blown him up, punted him through a wall and floor, had Joker whale on him decently badly, put Jason through some shock and re-traumatized him, left him to baby sit Dick while processing, shocked him again with the news that Dick did kill the Joker at one phase and everyone else knew about it, and then threw Bruce at him.
Dick, however, while reluctant to fight Bruce has put Bruce on his back at least twice in the past even when Dick is at a disadvantage. Here, he performs a triple flip (which means Dick was moving at around 65-70mph. I don’t think we emphasize that those flips hit with so much force it can dislocate the shoulders of the person trying to catch the flyer. For the quadruple, to this day, it can rip the skin off their hands in big flaps! Like, the performers have to toughen their skin just to pull it off without maiming themselves and their partners. Also… hitting any flip in the air magnifies the power and Dick would “land” by slamming into his targets. He also is trained in enough martial arts to have altered the set up of this signature, impossible, flip for maximum impact. Because again, Dick is not a gymnast to compete he uses his background and talent for gymnastics to attack people. Very different goals there haha. Here, because we don’t want to kill Bruce, Dick just hits him with a triple instead of a quad. It’s still enough to, as I tried to convey, send Bruce several feet backwards and into the load bearing wall.
Jason likely has very little concrete idea of what makes the Batsuit tick anymore. He’s well and truly lost that access and privilege. Dick, meanwhile, likely has an exact idea which, yes, does give him an edge in general on Bruce.
Speaking of Bruce and Batman! I tried to be particular in how he was addressed. Bruce is Batman in Jason’s POV because he has the cowl up the entire time. Tim alternates between the two as a tactic and Dick just flat out calls Bruce by name because he’s, you know, pretty sure none of this is actually happening anyway :)
Bruce has hit Tim exactly once, to my knowledge, outside of training or plot-device mind control etc. So it’s happened, but I don’t think Tim has categorized it as typical of Bruce the way Jason and Dick likely have.
Also idk if anyone will notice but it was important to ME that I never put Dick fully on his back in this fic. I figure between the rest of the sensory input and the Fear, being on his back would have shot-put Dick back to when Catalina raped him and I just didn’t want to deal with that in this story. Another time, maybe.
I know she doesn’t appear but Cass is not a combat deus ex machina in my stories. I really hate that’s the take away everyone gets from her story. I respect her abilities and don’t want to come off as detracting from them at all. In a head to head fight? Cass wins. Cass will win 98% of the time against any one of the Bats. Bruce and Dick are her biggest challenges but it seems consistent to say that Cass defeats them far more often than not! HOWEVER, that is in a spar or a direct fight. Dick and Bruce *do not fight like that* in the field. Cass is rash, impatient, and so incredibly sure of herself and her capabilities that she often bites off more than she intends to chew or blunders into traps she cannot fight her way out of in her & Bab’s comics. That set of flaws, because of her martial prowess, is part of what keeps her character engaging. Because of her abilities, Cass’ comic plots and struggles are more inline with the Metahuman comic counterparts: she IS physically capable, so it has to be SOMETHING ELSE that stalls or stops her. And she CAN be stalled, surprised and stopped. TLDR: in an actual conflict, I don’t think Cass can take Dick or Bruce. Absolutely not if they see her coming or expect her to be involved. Cass can cut the whole affair short by forcing that head to head fight before Dick or Bruce are ready — but otherwise I think she gets overwhelmed or trapped or tricked. Cass would be a good staller and a great piece to throw Dick of Bruce off balance… but she’s NOT an answer or a flat to check to either of them if it comes down to an actual, real, fight. Bruce is far more likely to engage as if things are “real” whereas Dick canonically has a (terrible) habit of “going sweet” on allies, including giving them free hits.
Not mentioned AT ALL here but Damian Wayne DID NOT STAY IN HELL if he was there AT ALL. (FUCK THAT AND FUCK RIGHT OFF DC COMICS) You’re telling me DICK GRAYSON - who canonically has traveled through several hells (thanks John Constantine), knows at least two pseudo-demons and is on good terms with them (Raven and Jason Blood) and is beloved by the largest Greek Mythos presence on the planet (Hypolita, Diana and Donna at least, genuinely respected by Artemis and Cassie as well) - didn’t scour the afterlives or pull strings or make deals to check where Damian’s soul went??? I’d have been less surprised if the Sword of Sin didn’t burn Dick in that vision quest explicitly because Dick made an off panel deal with some equivalent to or actual Lucifer (DC canon character who has a THING for sharp, smart mouthed, MORAL AS FUCK, police detectives) for Damian’s soul.
For ANYONE wondering about Damian, he’s in ch2 but for those who don’t want to read: Damian does not know about Last Laugh but he does hear (probably from Alfred) about Bruce’s plan to bring Dick in for murder. Damian makes a choice that no one besides Stephanie and Dick would guess at, and makes the tactical retreat to gain allies. Which is basically Dick’s old “everything has gone to shit and I am gone” rule for his Robin. In this case, he first shouts for Superman (settles for Clark tbh) and then goes to locate the Titans et. all with Jon’s help. ;) Damian very much gets a surprise/wake up call at just how much credit being Dick’s Robin (and Robin generally) gets him in the broader hero community.
Dick is genuinely only a few degrees of separation out from every character in the DCU. It’s ridiculous and I think it should get mentioned more often. He’s 100% the guy that everyone at least knows of or knows someone who does know him. He’s the DCU’s designated “I know a guy.” He was also the heir and little brother to the original JLA, the extended JLA, the Titans and then the mentor figure to the Titans & Titans/Young Justice crew among OTHER heroes and vigilantes as well. He is, as canon as said a few times, the must trusted hero. Which lends the idea that if Nightwing decided someone needed to die…? (Barbara was NOT joking about that whole “No jury would convict him” thing…)
Dick is Alfred’s youngest son, not his grandson, and it shows. I mean, absolutely fuck Tom King and disregard all of his “writing” but I 100% buy that as a reason as to why Dick inherited all of Alfred’s wealth.
Some of the combat was hard to write… I toed the line there on describing it for a reader and keeping it in Jason’s limited third person POV.
For the specific scene with Bruce vs Jason… Bruce and Jason are facing the same direction. Bruce has just stooped to reach for Jason’s helmet, as Jason has clearly not gone to back up the footage yet and the damage caused by Joker may have meant that it was the sole copy. Jason approached Bruce from behind and tried to kick him in the head. It would have done damage, but not a TON because of the armored cowl and Jason was aware of that but wasn’t thinking super clearly and anticipated having more time to respond after the hit. Bruce dodges and throws a jab at Jason’s bare face with the arm closest to Jason. In this case, Bruce is now standing slighting infant of Jason but due to the sideways doge is almost entirely next to him. Jason sees the punch coming, but because his weight and momentum are still falling forward from the kick he cannot dodge. He turns his head and torso instead to dodge as much as he can and to lessen the blow. Jason’s arms are up for the kick and also to grab at Bruce if he tried to stand immediately after. This means that Bruce’s thrown punch also goes over Jason’s bent elbow and forces Jason further forward and takes away more of his control/balance. Jason does manage to turn his head and torso, but Bruce still connects - knuckles to jaw/cheek. Bruce then ducks a little to spin an elbow into Jason’s center mass with a huge amount of power and a lot of his weight behind the blow. This snaps two of Jason’s already tender ribs (referenced in the landing at the beginning of the chapter) and throws him around a bit more. This all is supposed to happen very fast. In fact, none of the combat in this fic lasts for more than a few minutes apiece if that. I think the longest part of any fight with active movement is when Tim is physically mediating between Bruce and Jason.
Bruce 100% has kryptonite on him and is prepared use it on Clark right up until Clark announces that he’s in contact with the entire JLA who have been made aware of what’s happened and are waiting on their arrival. Bruce, at that point, was armed to take out the home team and had his usual stock of ‘oh shit’ back up plans… but he is by no means equipped to take out the entire JLA and whoever else this has leaked to today. So Bruce hangs out in air jail and schemes.
I will be making a separate notes post for the Second Chapter as I’ll be dragging in a pile of heroes and have notes on them that won’t make it (fully) into he narrative. I’m also debating as to whether to stay in Jason’s POV or if I should swap over to Damian’s… Hm.
Optional Plot Twist: That wasn’t Jack Napier aka the Joker — it was some poor schmuck dosed up and convinced he was the Joker, set up BY the Joker to run this. It goes better than the clown ever expected! And Bruce’s lecture gets a realistic edge to it… and the Joker stays at large… and now Jason and Dick see Bruce acting as if he PROTECTING Joker? Hmmm could be awful! :) I’m undecided~
BONUS: Non-canon, Dick hallucinates Jason while with Spyral.
“You’re not- he’s alive.”
“You sure about that, Dickie? You haven’t checked. Haven’t so much as glanced at a newspaper.”
The reminder stings. It’s supposed to.
“Bruce would-“
“Tell you? Bruce? Ha! Sure. Just like he told you the first time.” Robin leans in, wicked smile tilting his lips up at the corners enough to bare teeth. “Just like he took such great care of me then too.”
Dick’s head spins. When he looks back up, he’s alone.
Peonies, for those of you that care, are associated with a LOT. Healing and attraction (greek mythos), romance (bridal bouquets), bashfulness, shyness, as well as wealth and rank (Chinese, but specifically the myth about the Empress and her decree). ;)
For those wondering about the “meanly arrested fall” part, Dick has previously used a device that lets him throw people off buildings as it deploys a line and a safety harness after either a few seconds or a few dozen feet. In this case, you’re welcome to imagine Jason’s winded horror and confusion as Dick flips for momentum/force and drop-kicks his ass off a lethally high building. And then leaves him dangling there, hyperventilating but unharmed in the vigilante equivalent of air-jail (until Jason can reach a knife and bust a window and swing himself to some solid ground). Dick spent the time it took for Jason to get out of that yeeting Jason's guns through different building's windows.
When I say "Bruce had never truly considered the possibility [of Joker's death]" I mean just that. The man has plans written, of course, but he's never really thought it would ever actually happen. So Dickie was trained on that one. The contingencies, the worries. (Will the corpse explode? Would he have traps set? Where. When. How do you contain them. Disarm them. How do you dispose of a body so contaminated that blood transfusions are known to kill even at minimal exposure?) (Dick's Happy Childhood.)
Dick also isn't referencing Bruce when he says "step up and do it for me," as Dick feels he solved his parent's murder sufficiently himself. Jason is the one who assumes Dick meant Batman. Which is why he misses what Dick is actually offering him and is blind sided a few days later.
Jason spends most of this fic alternatively trying to work out why the fuck Dick is hanging around, if Dick knows and is playing a long con because obviously he doesn't actually CARE. He does the ground work, stalling his own plans incidentally, and figures out Dick is staying with Selina and isn't at the Manor or in contact with the bats and -- I just genuinely pictured Jason's side of his being like a solid 70% him hyping himself up and then holding back the urge to either kill Dick or twist any emotional knife he can reach. Like he's there, surrounded by these bags of take out and Dick talking shit with him on a roof and the first six meetings Jason internally is genuinely like... "No! No, I can't just yet! Have to hold it in." and then well, you know how this one goes.
The title is blatantly the song 'Options' by Cameron Whitcomb and it's an oddly Nightwing song in my mind :)
I just imagine Dick looking at a gun, his escrima sticks, a sword, a Talon's knife, Ra's sword, a batarang, and a gold chain necklace all lined up.
"My favourite vices I used to need
Lined up on the countertop, and they're calling out to me
Would I still survive it, or have I lost my edge?
…
It helps me cope knowing I could be that version of myself
Could disappear for a week, for a month, for a year
Wake up at home or in a coffin
It's nice to know I got options")
Also, this is the last time I write Dick Grayson POV. I cannot keep up with him and will not be trying again, thanks. Outsider POV of Dick Grayson from now on and only.
Battle for the Cowl: Darkseid Hit Nightwing Instead
Accidentally hit 'delete' instead of 'edit' @!$%^*!
Battle for the Cowl BUT
Dick Grayson is the one who was shot back into the past by Darkseid and Bruce loses his mind over it.
Like… Dick “dies” and Bruce loses it, culminating in Bruce being the one to take off on the vision quest and re-tangle with Ra’s and Talia… except a lot of his conflicts with Talia are going be centered on Damian, specifically Bruce’s neglect of Damian in pursuit of “bringing Dick back”(especially because Talia loathes Dick.)
Meanwhile you still have a feral Damian, who barely met Dick, watch hundreds of heroes and his own father grieve one man. Tim has his own spiral of grief but also tries to, once again, dutifully almost compulsively, stabilize Bruce… but Bruce doesn’t want to fight crime. He isn’t going off the rails and hurting criminals or innocents. He’s just… listless. Apathetic.
And then obsessive in the face of all logic and evidence and reason.
Jason losing his shit over Bruce’s reaction to Dick’s death vs his own. That incarnation of Jason Todd was already locked and loaded. I can only imagine what Jason's response to whatever Dick left for him in his will (and, yes, BET that Dick Grayson had a freaking will - that thing was likely layered and nuanced and set for multiple identities to activate on a timer like a cascade failure) would be. Since I have to come back and retype this, full disclosure: I hated the message Bruce "left" for Jason. I especially hate that Dick didn't bother to screen the damn thing before playing it mid-fight. "A message from Bruce" Dick thinks while grabbing it - jfc what a horrible Retconn-bomb the writers dropped into our laps. I don't have a total concrete idea what Dick could have 'left' for Jason in a will but the possibilities are endless and all could be triggers for Jason at that point. (statements of love and affirmation regarding Jason's time as Robin? Offers of redemption through work for Jason as Red Hood? A detailed confession about Last Laugh? Dick's contingency plans for various heroes and villains - like handing a loaded gun and trusting that they won't fire it for the sole memory of you and your desires otherwise.)
And, yes, Tim having in turn to deal with the fall out of THAT this go around. The tensions between Jason and Tim over Dick is slept on -- make it Text.
And meanwhile, there's still WE. There's still Damian. Now there's Bruce dropping everything with no word and no explanation. Batman, WE, his 10 year old surprise son, all of his obligations and masks. Tim isn't even 18 yet.
Does Barbara stay to help Tim? Does Cass follow Bruce?
Do Tim and Damian end up bonding in the face of Bruce’s apathy and Jason’s antagonism? Also, just… Tim being the one to tell Damian stories of Dick feels precious in a weird and backwards way. Plus, the arc stays intact because you can have Tim and Damian stumble upon Dick’s clues (and even specific messages for Tim) themselves!
Dick, meanwhile, ends up in the past (various). I think it’d be really fun to have him help / be a family friend to the Waynes! I’d love to work in that he gets “mistaken” (i.e. correctly ID’d) as a Crowne and just works to help solidify that old founding city alliances! That sort of unhinged loyalty / helpfulness to Bruce’s ancestors because they’re Bruce’s does it for me.
THE ADDITION I WANTED TO MAKE:
Dick's moving through time like Bruce did, which means he's not aging and he's popping up almost at random. I'm choked by the idea that the mythos of this immortal, helpful, and dangerous man appearing through the ages to help the Wayne Family is what creates the idea for Talons in the first place. Dick accidentally damning his own bloodline by trying to help.
"Next of Kin" AU Concept: Phoenix reaches out to Franziska when he thinks Miles is dead.
Phoneix and Franziska bonding oddly ensues...
I've been hunting through A03 and haven't seen this anywhere yet, so here we go!
After "Rise from the Ashes" we get the "Prosecutor Miles Edgeworth Chooses Death" note and we the player are told that Phoenix genuinely believes Miles is dead and has committed suicide. (Which. What. That was so unexpectedly dark. The game has such a clever balance of absurdism and humor that I usually forget that its centered around death, corruption and abuse both of persons and a broken system.)
Now this is Ace Attorney where nothing makes sense and the Civil Laws (in as much as there appear to be any) don't really matter - BUT! I always thought it was odd that we don't see Phoenix take any action regarding this? Depression is a hell of a drug but this IS the man who changed his entire career (more on that later) for the chance to meet someone he knew over a decade ago.
So in this one... when there's no record of a will or an intestate reading (though I think Phoenix would agree with me that there's no way Miles would leave things up to the State when he could have a perfectly organized will. Plus, he'd have to hide his Steel Samurai merchandise SOMEWHERE, like hell Miles would leave that to be turned over to the State haha), Phoenix goes digging. (Also also, I fully believe that Phoenix goes through and boxes up Miles' office with Dick. And like, maybe Phoenix was there first and someone accuse him of theft? But they get Detective Gumshoe as the responder and while Miles may not have said anything specifically, I think Dick will assume (incorrectly?) that Miles Edgeworth would approve.) (We've seen him make similar leaps of logic at far greater distances before!)
Phoenix goes digging and either on his own (he is pretty good at research AND Manfred references more family directly when they were in court) or via pressing Dick Gumshoe (who's really backed into a corner here, sorry to do you like this Gummy) discovers the existence of Franziska Von Karma.
Now Franziska, of course, knows that Miles is very much alive. She also, naturally, is of the opinion that Miles is a fool behaving foolishly and has nothing but contempt for this fool of a fool that not only ruined her (little) brother's perfect record but has irrevocably smeared and dishonored the entire Von Karma name!
Which is to say that hearing Phoenix suffering is, at first, a great treat. He should suffer. He deserves to suffer. He deserves to feel the loss that he should have had in all of his prior cases! (...doesn't he?)
So Franziska is sadistic but also alarmingly bright. If anyone could weave a convincing explanation as to why no will has been read or why Miles' things in the states are being preserved it would be her.
Ex: European law supersedes as it was devised within that system (lie), asset entanglement (lie), she's inherited them and is keeping them for reasons he [Phoenix] could never comprehend! (something of a truth).
It's important to note that this is all before Phoenix gets a/his magatama. The only lies he'll ping are the ones he can see through naturally and while Phoenix is quick, he's also grieving and being actively antagonized by someone Maya's age who is, to his best knowledge, also grieving the same person.
Phoenix is calling because he believes that Miles would want someone to check in on his little (...) sister. After the reception he gets I can't imagine he's quite 'foolish' enough to say that bit out loud initially but that is the driving intent. He's not here to solve a mystery, he doesn't even know there is one to solve! But he does know that Manfred von Karma was not a good man, in the court or out of it and that Miles, despite what everyone else might believe, was. And a good man would want someone to look after his family. Especially, as far as Phoenix knows, there's no one else left to do so.
So Franziska is not kind. Is not sympathetic. Has an axe to grind and isn't he lucky she's not close enough to make that literal. (Phoenix learns about the whip a lot earlier, hearing it crack through the receiver like punctuation.) But Phoenix is persistent and genuine and, key, a treasure trove of Miles Stories: from the Before (Manfred) and the After (Stateside).
By the power of Phoenix being both The Main Character TM and also frankly alarmingly dad-to-older-brother shaped... the two shift from weekly (one-sidedly) antagonistic calls to something more familiar.
They start, well - EVENTUALLY, by trading stories about Miles. Habits and failures, obsessions and idosyrancies. Before long at all it slips away from Franziska that she is, more and more often, talking about herself during these calls. Her childhood with Miles. Her time in law school. Her cases and the legal system abroad. She comes to expect his calls, and when or if Phoenix is late she rains hell down upon him. (Like Maya. Like a little sister.)
And Franziska gets to play both sides of this field. Because clearly if Phoenix Wright believes Miles to be dead then he is not talking to him. So you get Franziska who may or may not be needling Miles simultaneously. Smugly keeping her contact with Phoenix mostly a secret, except for how she now suddenly seems more perceptive to Miles' tricks. Has more context for some of his natural behaviors as she's gotten to hear Phoenix wax rhapsodic to sardonic about them (in! grief! Poor Phoenix...).
Phoenix was intentionally written by CapCom to be a blank slate. This translates to mean that this is a guy who can talk to you for hours, get your entire life story, and walk away without you realizing you don't know a thing about him in turn.
That said, I will N E V E R be over the fact that Phoenix should damn well be counted in the "legal prodigy" circle. He was an art major (at a very good university, but still an arts major) and he not only must have (i) applied and gotten into the university's law school ("change major" that's not how that works in any country for either business or law, they're slightly separate schools and you have to apply to get in to take the classes even if you're already accepted to the parent university); (ii) finished the credits needed to sit the bar within three years (normal US law school) but then (iii) sat the bar that same year as he graduated and (iv) passed it on his first try. The Japanese Bar is one of the hardest exams in the world. That bitch of a test has a 20% pass rate. California has its own bar exam (some states don't accept a universal test score, Cali is one of them) and that bitch as of 2024 has just under a 56% pass rate which is up from the 45% rate it was in 2001 (when the first game came out). All this to say - Phoenix plays dumb very well and while it's probably not usually difficult he's ALSO Elle Woods coded as FUCK, including the sleeper-style intelligence. And he does this without any named connection or relatives to the legal world or law. And I just need that to smack Franziska von Karma in the face a little :) both as a "ease off" and as a point of similarity she was NOT expecting!
I just am so enamored with this idea of the two forming this connection because of Miles.
Phoenix is deeply grieving (gets to grieve!) and also is secretly doing his best to take care of what must be the most important thing to Miles; his sister (after all, she had all the details (lies) about Miles' affairs. She's his last of kin and is all alone and YES Phoenix is projecting and overlapping Maya and Mia here HARD.) (But I do believe he would.)
Franziska for all of her brilliance does not put together that she is and was the priority. That Phoenix genuinely reached out with the intent to wellness check her and try to give her whatever support (emotional) he could. That goes right over her head for a variety of reasons (the first of which: Miles Is Not Dead. The innumerable rest: Von Karmas and Emotions and Self Worth).
Possible Topics These Two Could Speak On
Miles, obviously.
Law, obviously. American vs European. Inter-American law, even!
Defense Law vs Prosecution
(Deeply personal HC but I love the idea of Phoenix becoming a prosecutor in a different state if not for Miles becoming the Demon Prosecutor. I feel like EVERY CASE Phoenix works he is acting as both Defense and Prosecutor and I think he'd have been happier as the latter, it seems to be more natural for him, if not for the wild and crazy events of AA.) (Also also I have to hold in my hear that Japanifornia is like California Law. It has its own Bar. Its own weird set of rules. The law there differs wildly from the law over in New Mexico or wherever.)
Music (specifically, exhausted Phoenix one day reveals some in universe equivalent of Jaque the Whipper. Franziska takes this as a challenge. The two end up talking music and that never explained Arts Degree gets some use?) (I have big rising-star 'Theater Kid to Major' Phoenix HCs. With musical theater specifically as his favorite but not what his biggest pre-law roles were in.) (The Piano thing is less upsetting to me if you have him less 'piano player' and more Billy Joel's 'Piano Man' in that Phoenix can't play an instrument but he absolute can scatter some jazz keys and croon.
Art (see above, it's so versatile) (Go look up those lyrics btw they're on point!)
Steel Samurai (and how neither of them can see the appeal. The idea that these two long-distance stream a few episodes "in honor of Miles" or something and just - rip it to pieces delights me. Especially if Phoenix is unexpectedly articulate or brutal in his criticisms and Franziska repeats them later that week to Miles.) (The two of them watching it the way some people watch reality TV haha)
(The two of them ACTUALLY WATCHING reality TV and getting overly invested.)
Maya (similar ages, comparisons will be made both light hearted and not. Both aloud and not.)
Food (see Maya, probably, but that's a safe topic and my personal love language so you absolutely bet that Phoenix hypocritically worries if Franziska is eating regular meals.)
Opera, tying into the overall 'Music' topic. (Because it's "posh" and "proper" and you know Manfred absolutely had classical music and opera like Götterdämmerung, Faust, etc. at the only music in that household.)(So down the line Franziska either makes Phoenix listen or watch an Opera... and he hates it and grumbles and generally kvetches till she snarls and points out that it's like a play. It's storytelling. And then he's hooked.) (Also like some of the greatest operatic singers in the world have admitted that they substitute names of pasta when they forget the words and if that wouldn't speak to Phoenix's silly and improv focused heart?)
Musical Theater (Obviously Phoenix then returns the favor. At first it's a sarcastic "returns the favor" plot but by the end of the first Opera its actually genuine. Phoenix and Franziska each later driving Miles crazy with their show tunes. And the possible duets!)
It's a strange concept and it runs into trouble with the later games - but I love thinking about it!
Concept: Boone Accidentally Rescues Jason Todd from the League
Concept occurred when chatting with Icannotthinkofapenname on their (super fun!) fic 'Bros Before Double-Agent Assassin Boyfriends'!
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When we see Jason with the League, Boone is not by Talia's side. Now, if that was in the interest of NOT sacrificing decent agents into Jason 'canonically killed his LOA teachers, usually by ambushing them, as soon as Jason felt he had learned all he could from them' Todd's bizarre ego, that makes some sense... but consider for a moment that Boone's primary defining trait is that he is obsessed with Dick Grayson, who Talia cannot stand.
We know that she sponsored the Vengeance Academy, we get canon confirmation that Talia specifically takes Boone on down the line for a time. So imagine with me the first few years. It's a mutter here or there about someone named 'Freddy' and how this mystery boy would have done it faster or under more pressure. And that's fine, it keeps Boone motivated and competitive and he's out stripping everyone in his age group and then some.
Then about six years later, Nightwing debuts. And it's just the jaws of hell opening for Talia then because Boone goes full Draco Malfoy and then some about Nightwing. And it's fine, its even cathartic because finally someone else hates Dick almost as much as she does! ... and then he goes and ruins it by complaining about Nightwing and his "perfect hair, and perfect escrima combat, and-" like, she 180's into full Lucious Malfoy "yes, yes you have told me this a hundred times" level exasperation with a side of "WHY DOES NO ONE ELSE (actually) HATE THIS KID?!"
But in a universe where Boone maybe manages to keep his obsession and superiority complex to himself... it's not impossible that he's there during Jason's time in Talia's sect of the League.
One thing leads to another and Nightwing and Shrike end up tangling again. Nightwing snarks off about Talia and mentors (pretty common and petty) and Shrike, in turn, takes the opportunity to vent about this new kid because, well, Dick's managed to blindly hit a sore spot again! (To whit: Boone's fear of abandonment.) (To clarify, Boone is not concerned. He's shit talking about an injured, isolated, child that was apparently chucked into a Lazarus pit and came out with most of the lights still off because said kid is soaking up resources that were previously, even if only in his own twisted mind, Boone's.)
Like at the core of it what Dick hears in-between all of Boone's whining (and the fighting) is that there's a kid that was actually intentionally put in the Pit, who is still not doing well, that Talia is keeping under her thumb for reasons. (blah blah and it's taking up all of Talia's attention blah and she's getting all the good trainers organized blah-)
And Dick... doesn't have a lead in to the League. Point of fact is, Dick cannot rescue this kid.
But Boone can.
And that's a first for the pair of them.
(C'mon, it's Dick Grayson. Now that he, unfortunately, knows about this he also feels like he should be doing something about it. And Boone is both right there and making a nuisance of himself as usual.)
Just, Dick truly altruistic and well-intentioned deciding what the hell, worth a shot, two birds haha- and convincing Boone to rescue this random kid who turns out to be Jason Todd.
Like again, let's break it down further:
Boone has a direct connection to the League - and Talia specifically based on Robin Year 1
Dick cannot rescue this kid (Jason)
Boone can - this is a concrete thing that Boone can do that Dick cannot which is a big ol' achilles heel with this guy.
Dick at this point would have been seriously isolated, from Bruce and the Titans alike - timeline with Tim may be more flexible but would still be relatively early if we're at the phase where Jason is still 'waking up' so to speak.
Jason's situation can be tilted and spun to look a lot like Dick & Boone's back when they met. Young, scared, desperate and in the hands of bad people.
It suits Boone's petty agenda of removing a potential competitor, one-upping Dick Grayson, getting Dick Grayson to admit he (Boone) is BETTER, and maybe soothes the inner-kid he has/was that never got as much attention and help as he needed.
Boone in the comics later made a point of announcing that he struck out away from the League to be able to do his own thing - this would predate that shift but the idea of going solo was probably present already
Dick would absolutely leverage that along with the rest of Boone's ego
Just - Dick initially half-playing Boone and half seriously thinking it could be a minor act of redemption for both of them.
And instead Boone shows up with the dead little brother that Dick has been straight up hallucinating, he's been grieving so hard.
I genuinely think Dick would fall apart. Boone is used to seeing Dick crash out but this is a break down. Just, full on Dick scrambling to Jason's side, collapsing and outright crying then and there.
My bet is that Boone would have absolutely zero idea what to do. Both with the emotional meltdown and then with the genuine gratitude from Dick.
I just imagine him cat-like; squirming and flushed like ?? Ye-no? No? Huh??? while Dick just SOBS.
...which is its own series of serious issues because Talia is. not. amused. *dun dun dun!*
I'm playing through the games for the first time (yes, hi, hello you all spoiled me to hell and back so I'm now making my way through the primary source material to confirm the canon v fanon stuff! But WOW y'all are really good at keeping things firmly rooted in canon?! I am so impressed and thrilled!) and the piano playing (as a cover for poker... okay. Its fine. Its just a lot of tax evasion and illegal gambling and-) thing is just... weak?
It could be better, is what I'm saying. So here's my humble offering. Phoenix may be torturing the ivories playing classical-to-elevator music but two new things become apparent:
If you let him improv he can manage a decent (not great!) short piece of jazz. (Jazz music is amazing and complex and rich in history. You have to know what you're doing before you can ignore the rules!! But I do think Phoenix is the type of MC SOB who would learn things backwards. Like, imagine he picks up Jazz music off of learning sheets faster than he would a traditional arrangement made for an eight year old.)
He can croon. (Maybe he can't quite sing. We're not getting any high-quality musical performances (...unless?) from the man. But he has an expected amount of breath control (those OBJECTIONS!) and so long as he stays in his natural range, he's pretty good. Vocal control, conveying emotions, crisp pronunciation or intentionally slurring words together to match the song? I think that's all well within his ability and slides neatly into both his 'bluffing practice' and cover job of playing the forsaken piano. The crooning saves his ass, is what I'm saying.
This nonsense was brought to you by my getting Billy Joel's Piano Man stuck in my head and being bludgeoned with the idea that it fits Phoenix's time at the Borsht Bowl surprisingly well!
...also Phoenix singing to his loved ones is just. I'm emotional about it. Comforting Maya in the beginning after Mia dies and they're both still reeling and coping. Singing Pearl to sleep after 'Trials and Tribulations'. Humming along with Ema as they investigate in 'Rise from the Ashes'. Surprising Miles with it absently when they're spending time together? And of course, Phoenix humming as he holds Trucy or puts her to sleep with a roughly-sung lullaby instead of a story.
What are your thoughts on r0ydick and just Roy and Dick’s relationship in general? (I ask because you’re one of my go to Dick Grayson understanders and while he’s not my hyperfixation guy I always find your takes on him interesting)
Well, I can honestly say I have no idea how I got that title but... thanks? I am happy to be a resource and/or sounding board!
As always, there are lots of cool fans of DC Comics around and I’ll likely mention one or more here. Because why not, they're awesome!
So for Roy Harper info I super recommend checking out thequiver.tumblr.com and https://raddadharper.tumblr.com. They are way more informed than I am about the character and I credit them immensely for their cool and organized posts (a thing I clearly struggle with haha). There are, of course, more blogs but those are the two I know of and used to follow (lurking phase prior to this account).
And if you’d like to read more and decide for yourself directly [https://www.tumblr.com/thequiver/696949666459385856/who-is-roy-harper-a-reading-guide?source=share] Quiver provided links to comics! Commence swooning!
Some general background that they’ll cover too but I’ll try to sum up here for you first.
Roy Harper was created in November of 1941, making him one of the older characters in DC comics! He’s referenced a LOT as one of the “Fab Five” original Titans, but he was actually late to the party! Roy joined up LAST of the renown lot, followed by Lilith Clay who joined the same day (and in the same issue!) after the Titans had been established and active.
Roy’s background has been through several iterations and, like with Dick Grayson, DC Comics is usually very ham-handed and heavy on the stereotypes. (Take it with a grain of salt and remember that DC Comics is an American comic that's been tied to the country's politics since the company's founding. It gets an awful lot wrong/harmful/hurtful for all that we fans enjoy playing in their sandbox AND like to cite to canon. But that's a different topic!)
I tend to think of Roy as being at least two years older than Dick. To be honest, I usually think of Roy as being in Bab’s generation meaning he’s closer to four years older than Dick. (Making him at a minimum six years older than Jason and up to eight years older… so, about the same age gap that’s possible between Dick and Tim is there between Roy and Jason).
Roy’s character has been through the wringer and most people point fingers at the first incarnation of RHATO. My opinion is that they’re absolutely correct in doing so. RHATO butchered Roy and Kory to prop Jason up and it was a disservice to all of them. That DC tried to keep it in continuity for as long as they did, and continue to create imaginary upset between Roy and Dick, is absurd.
They also nerfed the hell out of Roy there. I think Roy was and is the “squishiest” Titan by far (and he knows it and complained about it) but he’s still an incredibly impressive character. He is, hands down, the best marksman in the DC universe - if it’s ranged he can fire it and fire it beyond well. Yes, I’ll swing and say he’s surpassed Ollie and would take out Deadshot (RIP, sorry to drag you into this). He’s also very good at hand to hand combat (Dick used to wake Roy up at 6am to spar, if that helps you work out where Roy’s skill level is. Dick considering Roy past competent and into ‘regular sparring partner’ puts Roy pretty dang high up in my estimations). Dick chose Roy to lead the Titans in his absence at least twice. That’s a declaration in and of itself about Roy’s abilities and character.
My opinion on Roy & Dick
They’re incredibly close but friction comes easy with a long history.
Mutually, this is the friend you trust with your life, your loved ones, and some of your most embarrassing moments over the years. They are also the (mutual, this goes both ways) person who will read you for filth at the drop of a hat.
I fully believe they have the capacity to snipe at each other in their weaker spots (never the weakEST, though. Not in front of others and only when they other really needs a wake up call or brake check) for fun and humor and do so regularly. Sometimes to an extent that concerns bystanders or people who don’t realize they know each other as well as they do. Roy is the friend that rags on Dick for the things he genuinely needs to work on but if someone else, anyone else, chimes in he whips around and starts barking. How dare that person breathe Dick’s air! (This is basically gone now from the recent comics and I miss it. Evening out the disparity, I'd say Roy would keep his mouth shut but he'd mark whoever was talking shit for sure. Hating on Dick Grayson should not get you points in Roy Harper's books. Sigh.)
Roy trusts Dick absolutely, for all that he knows Dick’s faults and flaws. We’ve seen this in canon (and I mean seen, as in we are shown through Roy’s actions as well as his words rather than the “tell” trend that DC Comics has fallen into lately) more consistently than not, even with the recent lines that’ve been said when the two are on panel. (The less said about whatever they’re doing to the Titans lately the better. Talk about infantilization and character assassination…)
Also, Roy is one of the rare few that Dick will lose his complete shit over if they’re name dropped &/or hurt. (Brother Blood had a very nasty surprise there. It’s one of the very few times we see Dick take off his usual brakes and visibly remind everyone why he leads these teams and not the other way around.)
My opinion on RoyDick
It’s not one of my ships but I can see where people are coming from.
Roy, specifically Roy, has this uncanny devotion to Dick in the majority of comics (though DC is working hard to change that with every issue, it seems). He genuinely believes in Dick, trusts him wholeheartedly, loves him despite (and often because of) Dick’s flaws and thinks Dick is inspirational.
Dick in turn has been there for Roy through thick and thin. He’s Lian’s uncle (I think it’s implied that Dick is her godfather / has some legal responsibility to/for her to some extent? Don’t quote me on that, I cannot cite it just yet!!), the person Roy has turned to for EVERY encounter and conflict with his ex (Lian’s mother) Jade. He was there for Roy when Roy was detoxing off heroin, when Roy considered retiring entirely, when Roy DID take steps back to be there for Lian, through the ups and downs (a lot less downs than most fans think, in my opinion) Roy went through with Ollie and Dinah.
Dick tolerates no threats to Roy, stands against Roy’s critics even when he agrees with them (gets on Roy in private about it but defends him in public), and trusts Roy with his life.
All that said, it doesn’t work for me because I very much was introduced to comics when DickKory was peak and Roy and Donna were having their will-they-won’t they for the nth time. So my brain, for good or ill, just dropped a little neat barrier there. Not because of heterosexuality/heteronormativity or anything so silly (…don’t ask me about Joseph Wilson and I won’t need to lie or soap box at you) but because honestly they were writing the characters as so sweetly intimate it just… made sense that Dick & Roy weren’t looking at each other at that time in that way.
Very much a wistful sort of thing but... hm. Language is insufficient. “I can see how it could have worked, but it didn’t happen and they’re not sad that it didn’t but somehow it could also feel like a loss when everything else falls apart and fades.”
I’m also… very much someone who loves gen-devotion. Platonic love. A friendship so powerful that others think you must be something more, because their relationships and experiences pale by comparison. See below briefly regarding Dick & Donna.
The more recent depictions don’t do it for me period.
Roy more and more frequently is depicted as being relatively conceited, idiotic, and hateful for reasons that are never clearly articulated or explained to the reader. They’ve made Dick upset as well, but Roy is typically the instigator (the one starting a fight or saying something hurtful) in the comics I’ve read. Flat out, that just doesn’t do it for me in a romantic or sexual pairing. I find it gross, unsatisfying, and not worth my time or energy. (Others milage may vary! But its not for me.)
If I wanted to see Dick with someone whose weirdly obsessive/devoted but also seems to loathe Dick for no good reason, I’d go write myself little short stories about Dick/Boone (Shrike). Same vibes but without the aching loss of a deep friendship (written for literal decades) for no articulated reason. In addition, the most prevalent characterization of Roy Harper in fandom comes from RHATO and that… just wasn’t Roy Harper. And I say that the way people (including me!) say that Morrison’s Jason Todd in Battle for the Cowl and after just wasn’t Jason Todd.
Now... RoyDonna is another reason. Dick and Donna are the Wonder Twins. I’ve seen some phenomenally funny jokes about transitioning (posted in good taste, in my opinion but lmk if otherwise) that pivot on how alike the two characters are depicted physically.
So… yeah, I can see how Roy would have had a fantasy or twelve about those two (being between them). Or woke up suddenly having realized he was dreaming about the wrong black-haired blue-eyed heart-stopping jaw-dropper.
HOWEVER, I can’t even really joke about it because of the deeply wonderful and platonic relationship between Dick and Donna! It just gets too close to Donna and Dick in a sexual situation and for me that’s a hard stop. Full no. Do not pass go, Roy does not get railed by his sexy wonder twins simultaneously. (Between Donna and Dick [HA], Roy is not in control of anything. Just. Chalk that up as fact and move on.)
((I know, I KNOW, the devotion levels went off the charts after Donna’s death / before her resurrection but for the same reasons expressed above… the idea of them getting together like that through grief ALSO squicks/upsets me. I’m a convoluted yet delicate ecosystem.))
And that's a great sign that I've gone too personal on this - sorry for any mental scarring haha!
Feel free to pop back around if you've more questions.
(Apologies for any mistakes, I did this all in one sitting.)
