okay finn. you started this on discord but i'm making you finish here. why couldn't sauron actually repent and go with eonwe?
Hi, friend! So this is a fun question. Let me get into a little context here first.
After Morgoth's defeat in the War of Wrath, Sauron approaches Eönwë, the herald of Manwë, and renounces his past actions. While it's possible that this repentance may have been genuine, we are also told in The Silmarillion that it was likely motivated by fear.
"When Thangorodrim was broken and Morgoth overthrown, Sauron put on his fair hue again and did obeisance to Eönwë the herald of Manwë, and abjured all his evil deeds. And some hold that this was not at first falsely done, but that Sauron in truth repented, if only out of fear, being dismayed by the fall of Morgoth and the great wrath of the Lords of the West."
- The Silmarillion, pg. 357
While "some" people believe that the repentance was genuine, I would like to direct attention to the context of the lines that I've bolded and underlined. Apologizing because you're afraid of the consequences of your actions is not the same thing as being sorry that you committed them.
If we continue along the same selection, I think there's more evidence that Sauron wasn't sorry for what he did - just that he might be caught and forced to face consequences like Morgoth had.
"But it was not within the power of Eönwë to pardon those of his own order, and he commanded Sauron to return to Aman and there receive the judgement of Manwë. Then Sauron was ashamed and unwilling to return in humiliation and to receive from the Valar a sentence, it might be, of long servitude in proof of his good faith; for under Morgoth his power had been great. Therefore when Eönwë departed he hid himself in Middle-earth; and he fell back into evil, for the bonds that Morgoth had laid upon him were very strong."
- The Silmarillion, pg. 357
Genuine repentance requires that one be willing to make amends for the things that they have done, even if that repentance is painful or humiliating. I do not believe that Sauron truly regretted what he had done in Morgoth's employ; I don't think he was capable of that sort of regret, given the corruption that had so twisted his heart.
Tolkien doubles-down on this in one of his letters:
"He repents in fear when the First Enemy is utterly defeated, but in the end does not do as was commanded - return to the judgement of the gods. He lingers in Middle-earth. Very slowly, beginning with fair motives - the reorganizing and rehabilitation of the ruin of Middle-earth, "neglected by the gods" - he becomes a reincarnation of Evil, and a thing lusting for Complete Power, and so consumed ever more fiercely with hate (especially of gods and Elves)."
- Tolkien's Letter 131
And in its own way, that's very sad. Being incapable of feeling remorse for what he did (only fear of the consequences) lead to Sauron repeating the very same actions again, which only cemented his own doom.
Fear of consequence and genuine repentance are not the same thing. Sauron was self-aware enough to know that and he was certainly familiar enough with the Valar to know that they would know that - and that it is unlikely that they would be moved to pardon him if he were not truly repentant.
Now, the Valar are not omniscient or omnipotent:
“The Valar, being created spirits of high angelic order, are not omnipotent or omniscient.”
- Tolkien's Letters, Letter 156
But in most cases, they're also not stupid and Melkor had already fooled Manwë once with a false plea for pardon.
Let's remember what Manwë experienced with Melkor when he was first captured and eventually released (only to corrupt the Noldor, murder Finwë, steal the Silmarils, make a pact with a primordial being of darkness, and cast the entire world into shadow by destroying the Two Trees - Melkor you naughty boy):
Before the gates of Valmar, Melkor abased himself at the feet of Manwë and sued for pardon, vowing that if he might be made only the least of the free people of Valinor, he would aid the Valar in all their works, and most of all in the healing of the many hurts that he had done to the world. And Nienna aided his prayer; but Mandos was silent.
Then Manwë granted him pardon; but the Valar would not yet suffer him to depart beyond their sight and vigilance, and he was constrained to dwell within the gates of Valmar. But fair-seeming were all the words and deeds of Melkor in that time, and both the Valar and the Eldar had profit from his aid and counsel, if they sought it; and therefore in a while he was given leave to go freely about the land, and it seemed to Manwë that the evil of Melkor was cured.
For Manwë was free from evil and could not comprehend it, and he knew that in the beginning, in the thought of Ilúvatar, Melkor had been even as he; and he saw not to the depths of Melkor’s heart, and did not perceive that all love had departed from him forever. But Ulmo was not deceived, and Tulkas clenched his hands whenever he saw Melkor his foe go by; for if Tulkas is slow to wrath, he is slow also to forget. But they obeyed the judgement of Manwë; for those who will defend authority against rebellion must not themselves rebel."
- The Silmarillion, pg. 86
Having experienced false pardon from Melkor, Manwë was unmoved by pleas for pardon from him after the War of Wrath because he knew that they were not genuine. Sauron is more than intelligent enough to know that going to Manwë and trying to claim that he's sorry when he truly isn't is a one way ticket to the Void.
Is Sauron the most fabulous deceiver to ever exist in Arda? Definitely. Would he be willing to gamble his freedom and presence in the world on being able to deceive a freshly wrathful and still-bloodstained Manwë?
I would hazard to guess that he was smart enough to know how that would probably end for him.
any two questions from the rop ask game you haven't already answered because i was away most of yesterday and did not really get to see everyone's responses!
Ah, lovely. Thank you! :-) Also, let me use this opportunity to finally tell you I LOVE your blog name.
7. Which minor character would you like to see more?
Camnir. I would like to know more about him. Also Narvi.
30. Choose three characters (not necessarily your favourite ones). Say three positive things about each of them.
I'll try to do it the hard way and choose the problematic ones!
Ar-Pharazôn: Very smart and resourceful. Loyal to his country in his way. And his wardrobe is just AMAZING. That man knows how to impress.
Kemen: OMG this is hell. Why am I doing it to myself? Cute face. That's about it? In S1 he was rather charming. Now... not so. Hm. He looks good in those pseudo-Roman clothes.
Waldreg: Unapologetically himself (a bastard). Probably cooks well since he had a tavern? He can be loyal, at least it seems to me he was, in his way, loyal to Adar. He also said Sauron was beautiful. 🤣
great white!!!!! they're like my absolute faves for some reason. i just have such deep respect for these absolute units of a beast. they're SO COOL. so big, so chonky.
whale sharks honestly, they're just so pretty imo. huge friendly guys. so majestic!
hammerheads because they're so funny. truly top tier little dudes.
leopard sharks, they just look so cool!!!!!
sandbar shark cause they're the first sharks i ever saw irl and one of the major reasons i fell in love with these animals
So I've finally decided on a direction for this blog with some help from my best friend @flameunquenched
I'm going to start writing a lot more Tolkien lore meta. I've already got a post shaping up that I'm going to finish and post this weekend. But I'd also love to answer some of your questions!
I've been reading Tolkien's work for decades and I like to think that I'm a decent scholar. If there's something I'm not sure about I'll tell you, but I have a library of considerable size and I'm happy to dig into it to answer lore questions.
So if any of you have burning Tolkien lore questions, no matter what they're about, feel free to send me asks! I'll get on answering them. :)
hey finn. the topic of the day in the ds fandom appears to be lucy strand. talk to me about what you think of her?
I do not like Lucy Strand.
It was wildly inappropriate for her to start dating him after he had been her patient in therapy, even if she resigned as his therapist thereafter. The imbalance of power there is not fair and that sort of imbalance lingers.
Ending her relationship with Neil after she became pregnant doesn’t make her cheating on Sam with him any better. If anything, it makes it worse. What, it wasn’t worth being loyal to her husband when he was just her husband? There has to be a child involved for cheating to suddenly be too wrong for her to continue?
I will say that she made the right decision trying to escape after Bridget showed her the truth about the Beach. Bridget absolutely intended to use Lou, no matter what, because Bridget/Amelie are sick fucks. But she should have told Sam, not Neil. She spent her whole relationship with him taking away his agency and not giving him real choices, seemingly like everyone else in his life.
Fuck Lucy. She didn’t deserve what happened to her, but she also didn’t deserve Sam.
on this most auspicious of days thirty-two years ago, my best friend was bornded. this has, according to me, myself, and I, been the best thing that ever happened to me.
happy birthday to @flameunquenched - many happy returns, together <3
fiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiinn. give me, and thus all of tumblr, your thoughts on tom bombadil. you said you had thoughts and i wanna hear them.
Old Tom Bombadil is a merry fellow,
Bright blue his jacket is and his boots are yellow,
Reeds by the shady pool, lilies on the water,
Old Tom Bombadil and the River Daughter.
Throughout the whole of the Legendarium, Tom Bombadil is widely considered to be one of the murkiest and strangest parts. He is loved or hated by fans and there are very rarely any middling opinions. The questions about his origins and what precisely he is will never be answered but I actually don't think that's terribly important. I'll get into why later in this meta, but I'd like to open by stating that I love Tom Bombadil and I think that his inclusion in the Legendarium (specifically in The Lord of the Rings - he is not present in The Hobbit or the Silmarillion) provides the reader with an important lens through which we can view Tolkien's world, the themes of his works, and his ethos as an author.
Before I go further, I will state that the fourth episode of season two of Rings of Power was one of my favorite episodes so far across both seasons. I understand why it might not be for some other people, but I think that it captured one of my favorite characters in a way that I never thought I'd get to see on screen.
Before I go further, the origin of Tom Bombadil, his exact nature, and what he represents is possibly the most disputed portion of the Legendarium. What I've written below is my personal opinion and literary analysis at work, nothing more than that. There are other opinions and I'm not going into them, although I have read many of them. This is my interpretation, which is one among many.
Eldest, that's what I am. Mark my words, my friends: Tom was here before the river and the trees; Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn. He made paths before the Big People, and saw the Little People arriving. He was here before the Kings and the graves and the Barrow-wights. When the Elves passed westward, Tom was here already, before the seas were bent. He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless, before the Dark Lord came from Outside.
Our first and only real meeting with Tom Bombadil (aside from the poems in The Adventures of Tom Bombadil) comes near the beginning of The Fellowship of the Ring in the chapter 'In the House of Tom Bombadil'. The quoted passage above is, in context, Tom's response to Frodo finally plucking up the courage to ask who he is, this jolly figure whose song terrifies the Barrow-wights into flight.
While the entire passage is interesting, it is the last line that I find truly fascinating: He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless, before the Dark Lord came from Outside.
I believe that this is a clear reference to the arrival of Melkor and the other Ainur in the Silmarillion. This means that it was Eru who created Tom Bombadil - Tom was a product of the First Song. Tom wandered the hills and vales of Arda before anything and anyone else was there. But why?
What is he? Who is he to command such power that when he tells Frodo to simply sing a song to call for him if they are troubled and Frodo does so, the utterance of his very name shatters a wall?
Iarwain Ben-adar, Oldest and Fatherless, the Elves and Dunedain call him.
Orald, Ancient, the men of Rohan call him.
Forn, Out of the Ancient Days, the Dwarves call him.
(As a side note, the goat in episode four is named Iarwain and it's a lovely reference. Dunno who else caught that, but it's great.)
I think that Tom Bombadil is Arda, the personification of the land. He is the rolling hills, the valleys and dales. He is the waterlands where he makes his home in the Third Age. He is the rolling plains of Rohan, the deep forests of Mirkwood, the high fells of Rhudaur, the distant deserts of Rhun.
He is the utterly unselfish and primordial joy of the natural world being permitted by a benevolent deity to know itself. Fitting then that he is wed to Goldberry, the River Daughter, who is herself the turning of the seasons - the Land wed to the Seasons that shape it.
This is fitting in relation to Letter 19 in The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien where Tolkien confirms that Tom, to him, represented the soul of the countryside that Tolkien saw disappearing all around him in Oxfordshire.
And therein lies the reason that Tom Bombadil is so powerful, why his song so surely masters that which it seeks to master. It also tells us why the One Ring has no effect on Tom Bombadil. Remember:
Indeed, so much did Tom know, and so cunning was his questioning, that Frodo found himself telling him more about Bilbo and his hopes and fears he had told before even to Gandalf. Tom wagged his head up and down, and there was a glint in his eyes when he heard of the Riders.
'Show me the precious Ring!' The said suddenly in the midst of the story: and Frodo, to his own astonishment, drew out the chain from his pocket, and unfastening the Ring handed it at once to Tom.
It seemed to grow larger as it lay for a moment on his big brown-skinned hand. Then suddenly he put it to his eye and laughed. For a second the hobbits had a vision, both comical and alarming, of his bright blue eye gleaming through the circle of gold. Then Tom put the Ring round the end of his little finger and held it up to the candlelight. For a moment the hobbits noticed nothing strange about this. Then they gasped. There was no sign of Tom disappearing!
Tom laughed again, and then he spun the Ring in the air and it vanished in a flash. Frodo gave a cry - and Tom leaned forward and handed it back to him with a smile.
And shortly after this, Tom can see Frodo when he puts the Ring on as well. Why would a Ring that tempts those who have desires for dominion and power have any effect on a creature that desires neither? Who is not able to desire either?
What do the woodlands desire? The creeks, the dells, the rocky highlands? What power does the river desire that it does not already have? You cannot tempt, manipulate, or deceive that which has no desire to manipulate.
There's another dichotomy at play here too: order and chaos, and they are not as obvious as they may at first seem. Sauron desires perfect order, brought about by the domination of industry. In the context of this dichotomy, our heroes are not different. Men, Elves, Hobbits, these are creatures of order too. This is why Sauron is capable of dominating them, and why he wants to! It feeds into his distaste for Orcs as well. Kings, thanes, mayors, cities, civilization in general, these are the things from which societies are constructed.
Tom Bombadil is chaos. He is a song echoing through the woods. His marriage to Goldberry is attended by the animals of the forest. When he loses his boat, it is retrieved for him by otters (who forget the oars). He bounces from page to page full of nonsensical rhymes, possessing love for nature and all of the creatures that inhabit it. He's the surprise bluster of a storm that ruins your picnic and the gentle glimmer of sunlight that wakes you the morning after.
Tom provides a necessary dichotomy between the beautiful chaos of the natural world and ordered civilization in a story penned by an author who truly loved the former. There is a reason he was left in the story.
Consider what Glorfindel says about him during the Council of Elrond:
'But in any case,' said Glorfindel, 'to send the Ring to him would only postpone the day of evil. He is far away. We could not now take it back to him, unguessed, unmarked by any spy. And even if we could, soon or late the Lord of the Rings would learn of its hiding place and would bend all his power towards it. Could that power be defied by Bombadil alone? I think not. I think that in the end, if all else is conquered, Bombadil will fall, Last as he was First; and then Night will come.'
Again, it is the later lines of this excerpt that are most important to me. Tom will fall if all else is conquered. He will fall last as he was first. I do not think that Sauron's personal might or his armies would be capable of felling Tom. I think what Glorfindel is implying that Tom cannot exist in a world where all else has fallen to order and industry. That is why Tom would fall last: there would be nothing left for him in a world of steel and wheels.
Tom Bombadil is an intentional enigma. If you read the text and think that you have no idea who or what he is and what his meaning in the story is meant to be, Tolkien's response is good, you're not supposed to. Sometimes, things don't need to be ordered and sensical to be beautiful.
Hop along, my little friends,
Up the Withywindle.
Tom's going on ahead,
Candles for to kindle.
Down west sinks the sun,
Soon you will be croakin'.
When the night-shadows fall,
Then the door will open.
Out of the window-panes,
Light will twinkle yellow.
Fear no alder black,
Heed no hoary willow.
Fear neither root nor bough,
Tom goes on before you.
Hey now, merry dol,
We'll be waiting for you.
