Hey, just letting you know that "forcemasc" is transmisogynistic and created to mock trans women's affirmation in forcefem.
I know some people are trying to reclaim it, but it's not really possible to separate it from transandrobros...
I'm not familiar with the term in that context! does anyone want to add to this conversation? gang how are we feeling about the term "forcemasc"? Transmysoginistic in origin? or a way for trans men to express delight in masculine transition? or both? Is it inherently tied up with the problematic "transandrophobia"?
as always, I do not abide by transmisogyny and will block/delete if we start heading in that direction
I just wanted to say that i admire your patience and tact in responding to these recent asks. And I really appreciate you taking the time and effort to push back against misinformation and transmisogyny online the way you have been. It is heartening to see other transmascs actually listening to trans women and transfems, and analyzing systemic oppression from a foundation of intersectionality and transfeminism. Thank you.
thank you for such kind words! because I have learned so much from trans women who have taken the time to write / tell me about transfeminism and transmisogyny i feel like I have to pay it forward and do some of that work myself. This is why I try to keep these discussions open and in good faith, and hope that it inspires some sort of feminist exploration with these guys, or at least anyone else who is reading.
and it sucks that there is so much pushback , because learning about transfeminism is legit what finally let me embrace my manhood and my transsexuality. Whipping Girl by Serano genuinely cracked the last little bits of my egg , because it gave me all of these terms and schools of thought that allowed me to really see the structures of transphobia, cissexism, and misogyny both in the world and within myself. I guess I just want that for other people too. Transfeminism is such a liberatory concept, not only for trans women, but for trans people as a whole.
Are you the person who wrote the post about how "transmasc erasure" is brought on by trans men trying to be cis?
I was saving it to read later and thought it was by you but I couldn't find it on your blog. If it wasn't you, do you recognize what I'm talking about and who wrote it?
Thanks for your time.
yeah I wrote that and then took it down bcuz I thought it lacked nuance. But! I've been reading whipping girl, and read a few more essays by other trans writers, and have more organized thoughts:
when discussing the erasure of trans men and transmasculine people from history records and popular media, etc., i see it coming from two different directions.
First, and primarily, our erasure happens because the patriarchal and cissexist culture we are entrenched in cannot acknowledge the existence of trans men, without calling into question the supremacy and "naturalness" of masculinity itself. Julia Serano says because trans people "are a threat to the categories that enable [sexism], the images and experiences of trans people are presented in the media in a way that reaffirms, rather than challenges, gender stereotypes" (Whipping Girl ch. 2). In the case of trans women this leads to hyper-feminization and hyper-sexualization, which attempts to simultaneously call into question the "validity" of the femininity of the trans woman on screen, painting her femininity (as well as all forms of femininity) as fake and contrived, as well as deride and debase that same femininity by portraying it as a "fetish" or other sexual deviancy.
in the case of trans men, however, the media cannot call into question our masculinity without threatening the supremacy and "naturalness/neutrality" of masculinity itself. Serano says, "in a world where modern psychology was founded upon the teaching that all young girls suffer from penis envy, most people think striving for masculinity seems like a perfectly reasonable goal" (ibid). She quotes another trans writer, Patrick Califia, who says "This reflects the very different privilege men and women have in our society. Of course women want to be men, the general attitude seems to be, and of course they can't. And that's that" (Sex Changes, 1997). Cissexist and misogynist mainstream media then cannot depict a trans man because in doing so, in order to affirm and protect cissexism, they must degrade and call into question his performance of masculinity, which then calls into question all displays of masculinity and risks our cultural understanding of masculinity as a sort of natural and "neutral" state of being, as opposed to the "fakeness" and "performance" of feminity (read whipping girl to go more in depth on this).
Our erasure from mainstream media stems from our cissexist and misogynist culture that claims that masculinity is superior to and more natural than feminity. In order for us as trans men to fully "pass"/assimilate into cismasculinity, to gain a sense of safety in a transphobic world , we also take up these misogynist tenets that affirm the supremacy of masculinity over femininity, man over woman, and deny the transsexual nature of our own genders. And in doing so, we become lost in our own "stealth". Our erasure becomes twofold: the media erases our existence, and we then feed into that erasure in order to feel safe affirming our places in society as men.
And there is no community to be found there. no shared sense of brotherhood. no legacy to look back on, and nothing to give to our future trans brothers. Our erasure, despite keeping us physically safer, keeps us from forming community with each other. and can make us less safe to the women around us. Furthermore, through assimilation we are making a transmasculinity that is, by nature, misogynist. We are affirming our culture's assertion that manhood IS the dominance over women.
But at any point we can reject this cissexual/mispgynist model of manhood, we can reject assimilation. We can actively make the choice to become more visible. we can start making a ruckus. we can emerge from our veil of assimilated privilege and take up the fight that our trans sisters have been pioneering for decades/centuries/the past millenia. We can create a legacy of transmasculinity to be proud of, to pass down to our future trans siblings. And we do that by supporting and uplifting our trans sisters. we become loud and visible for them, for their liberation. We must step out of the safety of assimilation. We must reject transmisogyny. Our manhood must be a manhood that rejects transmisogyny and patriarchy and white supremacy.
I HIGHLY recommend reading this article by Jersey Noah, where he goes into detail about the kind of manhood that trans men can achieve through our transsexuality. It's an incredibly affirming read.
speaking as a trans guy, thank you for being sane about transandrophobia. the trans men who demand attention for their male-specific oppression are literally breathing new life into misogyny in their own special way.
it is so disheartening to see the misogyny in our brothers come out like this -- and it's why Im letting the discussion continue, hopefully I can change a few minds, or at least get some new thought processes going . thank you for the words of encouragement <3
I’m sorry people are being so obnoxious about transandrophobia in your asks, it’s so frustrating that people just don’t understand what intersectionality means like. People are not oppressed for being men!!! We are oppressed for other things and the ways in which this oppression manifests can be shaped by our genders but men are not an oppressed class in society. I am constantly losing my mind trying to argue this point and the fact that people can’t seem to wrap their heads around this basic premise is so damn frustrating sigh -S
yeah it's getting a little exhausting ngl -- but we can't let our bros go down weird MRA pipelines , gotta keep the discussions going. it's repetitive and annoying, but I am glad to know there are other trans people out there who know what I'm trying to say and will back me up. thank uuuuu 💖
I know my ask had more of the masculinity bit, but that was mostly because “masculinity is rewarded” was a part of the thread on your blog in regards to the recent asks and was accepted unchallenged, so it kind of puts a bad taste in my mouth when you disregarded the first half of my ask. I guess I just don’t see what the issue is regarding giving a minority more and new words to discuss the oppression they face. I see transandrophobia as being potentially valuable part of feminist and trans discourse and i don’t see it as an oppositional term to transmisogyny, just in case i needed to make that clear. I think both are different, but valuable, terms. They are addressing different things entirely, with the only overlap is that trans people are centered in discussion of both.
I find it disheartening that you find it invaluable because it’s not as precise (yet) as other terms. It’s a very new word. Key terms in theory need time and attention and will often be re-defined and narrow over time, and might morph into new words as better language is constructed. As far as the transmisogyny… from at least what i see of the discussion about it on tumblr, a lot of the attitude with it is that it has nothing to do with trans women (unless they feel affected by transandrophobia) and of the folks that i’ve seen discuss it, they and their audience are very quick to shut down transmisogyny in the discussion if it occurs. Sometimes I’ve seen someone being a shithead to trans women, but that’s been pretty rare. I think, when you have the time, you should try engaging with what the bigger names discussing transandrophobia are saying in good faith and see what you might find. If you still don’t find the word valuable that’s totally fine, but at least you can see that a lot of people dismissing and making fun of the very real problems they face with “transandrobro” and the like is unproductive at best and can be blatantly transphobic at worst. Thats it. Thanks for engaging with me respectfully!
clearly you do believe these terms are useful, and at this point all i can say is I disagree. for me, it makes sense to engage with real structural systems of oppression, which misandry and androphobia aren't. adding trans in front of either of those words still doesn't describe any system of oppression other than transphobia, for which we already have a word for... transphobia. or cissexism. choose your favorite.
Transandrobros is an inherently transphobic term, like "birthday boy" etc because of how it's used to shut down trans masculine people discussing their experiences. There will be people misusing terms like transandrophobia, but this can be said of any term coined by the trans++ community, and it's unfair to make blanket statements about it.
transphobia is a system of oppression that is enforced by our dominant society/culture. Calling someone a transandrobro is simply a term used to describe frustration with a very specific set of beliefs held by *some* trans people that believe men are oppressed for being men. I'm sorry but I don't see the transphobia. I can understand that maybe it hurts your feelings, and makes you feel unsure of your beliefs, and those are hard emotions to get through, but it is not oppression.
