This time around, I had the absolute pleasure of chatting with Grace Byron, the Brooklyn-based columnist, writer and filmmaker and all-around brilliant, benevolent creative spirit whose recent book release party for NB Carrie Bradshaw (read it here via Epigraph Mag!) at Babycastles solidified my love for her and her work.
This interview was the first time I had the opportunity to conduct a classic interview over the phone instead of over text chat, or as I like to call it for reasons I’d gladly explain to you over a glass of wine, “The Tony Hawk Method.”
This resulted in a truly gorgeous conversation that flows synaptically and always takes surprising directions (Twin Peaks, the afterlife, and a tender moment involving Coldplay that occurs towards the end---when you see it then you’ll understand!). It also brought me right back to the days at my editorial internship where I would transcribe hours of interviews, but in a good way this time. I took great pains to not only get the content and diction right, but to convey the undertones of our exchange that made it so vibrant. Which, interestingly enough, makes it take on the visual form of a text chat.
Check out our conversation at the jump, with gorgeous illustrations by Becky Ebben:
You do a column called “Trans Monogamist” for the Bushwick Daily (I binged that…it’s really dope) and your latest project is NB Carrie Bradshaw (which is out now!). So I’m curious, what sort of came first: your interest in the format of an advice columnist/relationship columnist, or your love of Carrie Bradshaw?
Actually--I didn’t start watching Sex and the City until January 2017, which everyone is sort of super surprised by, and honestly? Me fucking too. Not that it’s a perfect show, but the aesthetic signals that it’s something that I should have seen a long time ago. It took me a long time to get to it. I had heard a lot of the negative stuff, which there is a lot of, and rightfully so. There’s this one terrible bisexual episode where Carrie’s just like, “I just don’t know….he’s bi .” And I’m just like… “Girl, so what.”
The point is, the column writing came sort of naturally. I had a column a few years ago at my paper called Queer Art Vibes before I had even seen Sex and the City. And I was mostly writing about art, and capitalism, artists, and things I was finding interesting aesthetically. The last column that I wrote was after I had a break-up, and it was called “How To Date an Anarchist.”
Oh my God
And it got like, no comments. Because most of the columns that I was writing were about trans identity and stuff. I got all these comments like, “Why can’t people just make up their minds about gender?” And I’m just like, that’s completely irrelevant to what I’m talking about. So this column got no comments at all. There’s this huge anarchist population at Indiana University. It just closed down this month, but we had this huge anarchist bookstore that was this huge draw for the punk scene.
It was a column that didn’t make sense for where I was writing. But then as I was watching Sex and the City, and as I was doing a lot more dating my last year in college, I was thinking “yeah, this is really important to talk about.” And I started thinking of dating as a political and aesthetic and emotional practice. It’s more using this pop culture phenomenon to let people understand something about what it’s like to be trans and dating. It’s not like it’s me and my three friends that are all going through the same things.
Or it’s not like me and my straight girlfriends talking about how our experiences are different. Or me and someone who is nonbinary even talking about how it’s different for both of us. But I do like that element of friendship in it, that element of comradery. But I think it’s interesting now that shows act like there’s this group of 4 friends and they’re all the same. And that was never my experience? You know, there’s always a nonbinary person, a lesbian person, and...maybe a straight man.
LOL the token straight
Right. At least that’s my college experience, where I’ve never had a group of friends that were all the same. There were always at least one other gay or queer person. It’s a helpful lens to think about dating, and think about dating how much it’s changed since the early 2000s. A column is a dispatch from the front lines, like “this is what happened this month! How’s it going with you?” The book [NB Carrie Bradshaw] has a little bit of a more narrative arc to it. But in the columns, there’s no resolution.
-----keep reading below------
Right, and that’s what I like about it. There’s endless thinkpieces about dating apps, queer dating, etc, and it’s so frustratingly depersonalized. It’s very strange how the discourse tries to force dystopia instead of actually having a comprehensive view of how people feel. There’s a lot more truth in the way that you present dating than how someone tries to dissect it in a thinkpiece.
Yeah, thinkpieces are weird. I love to read them, but I also don’t know how helpful they are a lot of the time. Especially when they try to draw a definitive statement. In some things, sure, that makes sense.
Like in a college thesis, where you’re forced to come to a resolution for your life, pretty much.
What was your experience working at a college newspaper?
Basically, I came to college, and I was on the media floor--and basically what I thought that meant was cross-genre. But in reality, what it meant was journalism. And then I thought, you know, okay, it’s fine. I thought it was interesting. And so I almost went to join the newspaper as a writer and interviewer, I did a few articles. But a rule was that if you were a writer for them, you couldn’t be interviewed. And that was my biggest problem with it--I knew I wanted to do art. I knew that I wanted to get press. I didn’t want to prevent that from happening.
Right after I came out my freshman year, this guy on my floor was like, “do you want to talk about being gay at IU?” And I was like uh….sure! It was weird because it was my first time being interviewed for something real, and I was talking about being gay. But I was also trying to sneak a pitch for my website while doing it, I was like...go watch it! They promptly cut that out of the interview, though.
Good effort, tho.
I didn’t love that environment. I wasn’t taken with it. I started volunteering at a local radio station where I did stories about lots of things. That was much more interesting and fulfilling than the college newspaper. And my friend was like, “do you want to be columnist--we need one.” Not because I was special or anything, because they really needed one. And I was like, “sure.” So I started writing these extremely leftist columns, like “capitalism is the devil, and here’s why : )”
And I wrote one that was like, “nudity in art isn’t porn,” which isn’t even an extreme opinion. But I started getting all of these comments like, “Counterpoint: nudity in art isn’t not porn.” I was just like wow, I can tell that you really read this column….
People just read titles a lot of times.
Yeah for sure. Our campus was filled with a lot of views of all extremes, and not just anarchists. We also had a militant white supremacist population on campus. There were a bunch of protests from that group over the course of years--it wasn’t just one year, or just this year, which was definitely the worse than the years before. I also got tons of hateful comments from white supremacist groups on my articles. So I was just one of the people on the receiving end of those comments.
But as far as my involvement in the newspaper group itself, I think I only attended one meeting. I didn’t really feel a sense of community at IU that a lot of people there felt. I think a lot of people looked down on what I did because it was so personal. It wasn’t like I was talking about music, or like I was talking about hard-hitting stories. So I wasn’t really a part of the “IU JOURNALISM COMMUNITY.” But it wasn’t like I really wanted to be. I would still sometimes get people who appreciated my work, that came up to me and said “I love this, I love what you’re doing,” but they were usually queer people.
Which is definitely the desired reaction, which is awesome. Talking about your webseries “Idle Cosmopolitan” -- what was your favorite audience, or your favorite venue that you showed it to? And what was that sort of reaction and vibe like?
I wasn’t at all of the screenings. It showed at Bloomington at Planet Nine--which is this small VHS rental/DVD rental video place that kind of reminds me of Ghost World or something. I wasn’t there, but a lot of my friends were there, since it was my home for so many years. I assume it went well. From the pictures, I saw that it went well, at least.
It showed at Sarah Lawrence, which I know very little about how that went. I wanted to be there, but I was scheduled at work. Which is a whole thing about how I’m not a full-time artist. I say that I’m a freelance artist, which means that I make MAYBE 50 bucks a month off of my art. If it’s a good month! So I can’t always go to everything that’s happening. It’s an interesting part about being an artist in this landscape. People expect you to be global, and there’s only so global you can be if you’re working class. Which I think is important to be transparent about. It’s not always fun to be transparent about that, but it’s important.
Exactly, you want to be honest about it, but you want to portray yourself as larger-than-life-to get attention, and at least the semblance of clout (whatever that fcking means). But being an artist, you’re a part of a community, and you want to treat that community well. You don’t want to stunt and act like you’re making a living off of your art when you’re not.
It’s not cool to lie one way or the other. It’s not cool to portray yourself as a poor person if you’re not, and I’m not super poor or anything, but I’m not living off of my artwork, and I make a decent living off of my work as a childcare worker. But yeah, you shouldn’t lie because you’re fooling yourself and making art seem elitist.
There’s the lie by omission, in a way. A lot of people are internet famous, or have a certain persona that makes people say “Oh, I want to be like this person, who so clearly lives off of their artwork.” When in reality, it’s probably a side hustle at best.
Or they live with their parents. Or they have rich parents.
It distorts people’s dreams and plans--it’s important to be responsible about that.
Totally. One show I was at physically was at Secret Project Robot, at this festival of poets, and my videos were showing between poets that were reading their work. So that was interesting---I was the only video artist at the show. And as many things as I have tried--I have written poems, but I’ve never called myself a “poet.” So I thought that was kind of cool to have that multimedia experience, to see my videos projected really large in front of a big crowd of 20 or 30 people. Which doesn’t seem like a lot, but it’s actually a lot. I remember thinking wow, the crowds are gonna be so big in New York. And they are! But 20 or 30 people is a lot for DIY art. Even if you’re successful, or internet famous--it’s hard to gather a crowd wherever you are.
And it was really cool because people who were actually in the video got to see it, which was cool! Chariot is in it, and he was there, so that’s cool.
There was one livestream and q&a in the UK, which was really cool. And that was my favorite, because the moderator was super smart and always asked good question about the fantasy genre, and its intersections with queerness. It was refreshing instead of questions like-- “Why are you gay? Why is this here?” It was a good convo to have beyond the surface level.
It’s awesome that I saw so many showings of your series was in Indianapolis, in Indiana. You may not see a big crowd--DIY art isn’t an Ariana Grande concert--but What you do see is how it sort of transforms the room, and creates a living space, a community. 20 people is a community. Especially in Indiana.
Right, there’s very established artists and documentarians where the only place they have more than 20 people show up is in their hometowns. Even world-renowned documentarians may struggle to get an audience. Which is awful. But I think that one thing that is happening in the real world is that there are plenty of people I look up to, who are famous, whose twitter gets pretty very few likes! And they may have a huge amount of followers! And I’m like--why am I getting more likes than world-renowned feminist scholars? I think that’s happening in real life too. These people are having talks and showings of their work and sometimes DIY work is a different experience and maybe draws more people than these professional pieces, and there’s a community of people who can see themselves in that as artists.
I agree, it definitely changes the dynamic for people are used to when it comes to art, you think there’s the artist and this huge invisible wall and then there’s the observer, and it breaks down that dynamic.
Right, it changes the power dynamic. The artist isn’t a preacher. What we’ve seen in DIY venues is, everybody is sitting in chairs. The artist is in the front, but everyone is on the same level. There isn’t a stage to walk down from.
I think people are only starting to observe this change, and aren’t sure what to call it yet. Some people see changes like this as the death of something, like the death of some kind of empire of how art works. But especially with this project, I think I’ve not only been an optimist, but a realist in the sense that it’s for the better. So many people are screaming “death to media! Death to print!” and I’m just over here like, “You’re a Baby Boomer, please don’t talk to me.”
Ha! Right. These media aren’t dead, but they’re definitely dying. But I think they’re going to be dying for a while to come. People broadcasting the death of all of these things---like, they’re not dead yet. The Met is gonna be in trouble, but the Met is gonna be around for the next 100 years. The Met’s not just gonna crumble.
Going back to “Idle Cosmopolitan”--I love how it’s a series of very short films. And by short, I mean like, slightly longer than a Vine length. And some people may come across that and immediately compare the series to Vine culture, but my immediate thought was comparing it to poetry, with a lot of tightly-wound content being fit into a small space. So I was wondering how poetry influences your visual work, or how visual work influences your poetry, etc.
That’s interesting. I actually originally applied to go to college for poetry. I never called myself a poet, but I did think about it for a while. When I do write poetry, it’s usually about nature, and viewing nature through the lens of divinity and power dynamics. Which I think is definitely a big part of my video work. The “Queer World” in my piece is a forest. Somebody was talking to me recently, and said that “I think it’s interesting that the queer world is a forest. Do you think of urban spaces as, like, not-as-queer spaces?” I hadn’t really thought about that. But whenever I think of that sort of the afterlife, I don’t think of cities. And what’s our other option, really? Nature. An ocean would be a terrifying destination for the afterlife. I think that poetry is super important, I think when I’m writing anything, I tend towards a lyrical, poetic style. I love hard facts, but I was never super into Hemingway. I always loved the Great Gatsby. Not that I like showy, hyper-stylized stuff; I hated the Great Gatsby movie. But the suggestion of artifice, the suggestion of things like that, I think is really interesting.
There’s ton of talk about heaven and nature and sin in “Idle Cosmopolitan.” I’m sure it comes from a long line of being raised in Christianity, and having read all of the Christian classics. And as a kid, I was obsessed with the apocalypse. Once, I was between 6-9 I remember looking at clocks in restaurants and thinking, “Could this be the hour of the end?” I remember being super into Revelations, and the ghost stories that my friends and I would tell each other, and often confusing them as the same thing.
I think that’s a form of poetry true, a strange, mental form of poetry. I think the afterlife is poetic, because there’s no concrete that you can provide.
I think in terms of modality, I think I’m always writing in the form of the poetic, even if I’m not writing a poem. Even my column--it’s not a how-to column, it’s not a safari.
It’s not MTV Cribs!
Right! Definitely more reflections.
I always thought of videos sort of in musician terms, like “this is my new album---Idle Cosmopolitan.” This is the tracklist, and each has a poetic name, etc. And each year, there’s a self-image overhaul….well, there’s no image overhaul for me this year, but especially in college I was into that idea, where I wanted to amp myself up every year.
But this iteration, for me, was trying to marry these poetic ideals with my own lived experiences, to make it sort of autobiographical, but still have a flourish. I mean, I was watching Twin Peaks when I was working on it.
Yeah, I can definitely see that influence in there. Where there’s that magic-realism, but it’s so mundane. The suspension of disbelief is so well-dissolved into it.
Right as I was starting to write this, I just finished the season of Veronica Mars---I’m not sure if it directly influenced it…
But it was there
Yeah, and watching Twin Peaks: the Return. What I thought was interesting about it was its formal elements. There was this sort of suspension of disbelief present for both the characters and the audience. So then you’re just like, “Yeah, queer spirits! That makes sense!” So, it’s that magic realism that is super appealing. And also the fact that it’s episodic. One of the things about David Lynch that I’m really into is the episodic nature of his work. There’s this loose play with time and narrative, and it’s an experience.
I think what Lynch talks a lot about, especially in later seasons, is agency. But in Sex and the City, for example--Carrie isn’t a bad person, but she’s not necessarily a good person either. She has affairs, runs around doing whatever she wants, she tries to take a break from dating and has a guilt complex where she feels bad about her actions, and also places guilt on other people--it’s complex, which I think is interesting.
Like chaotic neutral, but a little more complex than that?
Yeah, definitely. I’m obsessed with people who are chaotic neutral. I don’t think I’m chaotic neutral, but I’m fascinated by that those people exists.
I’m a super-intense Virgo, Type A, Blair Waldorf type. I definitely pride myself on hard work--which could be problematic--but I have that crawl-my-way-to-the-top sort of vibe.
This character in the webseries, they’re sort of neutral. They’re a relationship writer, but it doesn’t seem like a main part of their personhood. The only thing that they seem mad about is when their boyfriend breaks up with them, which is fair. But they don’t seem to be making many choices, and there’s something very sidekick about that.
I was in this space in my life where I was having to make all these intense decisions--deciding to move to New York, having to make all of these choices about who I wanted to be as a person. The character is the exact opposite, where there’s no movement. There’s a movement in narrative, a movement in place, but it kind of happens to them.
They get a letter, a pep talk from Fate--and they’re just like, “Sure, whatever, I don’t care.” Then they enter the queer world, and they’re like “Alright.” And then the Blue Spirit is the one who was like, “No, this wasn’t actually a good choice.” And they’re like, “Okay, sure.” They never really doubt people’s motives.
There’s a sort of guilt about making choices that Type A people have. Inevitably, if you’re a type A perosn, you’re going to hurt people. Even if you’re not actually hurting them, you’re going to make choices, and choices affect people. There’s winners and losers. So what does it mean for the sort of stoner archetype, this chaotic neutral archetype, when they don’t make choices?
I’ve never been a chill person, so I gravitate towards writing characters that are like that. Because I’m always wondering….what does that feel like?
Right! I feel like it takes a lot of effort to be chill, which isn’t chill. It’s kind of a self-consuming concept. I’m not gonna say it’s the only real binary, but…
Haha, right! Ok back to influences. Actually, as far as the soundtrack goes, I’ve gotten a lot of feedback where people say it reminds them of Sex and the City, and that it’s derivative. Actually, one person said that the soundtrack reminds them of Rugrats….
Stop!!!
Right!? Well, it’s jazz, but it’s sort of this chaotic jazz.
It’s a typical theme song in a lot of ways, but it’s disarming. Which I like.
Some people said it makes them anxious.
It offsets the perceived chill in the series, which signals you to look harder.
Watching it back, I was like...something is wrong. Narratively, there’s something up. But I’m not sure if that thing ever gets hashed out or resolved, it just sort of hangs like a dark cloud.
Which is what’s so great about poetry. There’s always that lack of resolution. People always get angry at that, where they want to feel satisfied...where’s the sequel at??
Do they get the girl or not??
Yeah! It’s how we’re taught to view life. But especially with creative people, it’s paradoxical--they only thing that makes them (us) feel satisfied is poetry, that sort of form that leaves things unresolved.
Totally.
How has the internet shaped your writing?
The internet is definitely fucked up. It was created by the military, and is now owned by billionaires. That’s already strike one. But let’s assume that the internet is also provides a space that provides more access for more people. But it doesn’t provide equal access for everybody. It provides equal access for a relatively small amount of people. You have to afford a computer, internet access--and even if you go to the library, you have to afford to be there.
But let’s say it does level the playing field in that way---even still, people don’t have more of a chance of getting their art noticed because of it. It does mean more people can put their stuff out there, but it doesn’t guarantee more viewers, or more fans, or some utopia.
The internet has become this neoliberal promise of equality. This reveals itself in every aspect---who dominates media, who dominates internet celebrity, etc. This doesn’t discount the fact that there’s fantastic DIY spaces based on the internet, but there’s a lot being overlooked.
The internet as a structure is racist, sexist, homophobic, and transphobic. Even if we go back to technology like photography, for example, it was a technology developed to best depict white faces. It’s so great that the internet creates a platform for people, but that includes creating platforms for neo-nazis on 4chan, for alt-righters to doxx people. The web is pretty fucked up, and it amplifies our greatest strengths, like community. Especially the trans community, which is so important. But it also amplifies our problems, and reveals where we need to grow.
I don’t think the internet is the devil, but I think it makes it harder for people to feel like human beings. It mirrors capitalism, and degrades human beings in so many ways where we’re expected to become a brand, which is always tied to capitalism. We’re forced to reduce ourselves to something bite-sized, which is troubling me as a person and as an artist.
When did u start writing and being creative?
I was always drawing. I was super into Pokemon and all the Nintendo games. I was into anything cute and well-designed, like Zelda, and anything involving world-building. I was super into maps, and at a young age, I thought, “I wanted to do that.”
At a young age, I wanted to be a pop star. And I made the boys in the neighborhood be my band. Now I’m thinking that was sort of a strong signal of me being gay, haha. Boys---you’re gonna be in this band, and I’m gonna sing Breakout by Miley Cyrus.
I started getting really into bands. I was really into Coldplay, and I wanted to be Chris Martin.
STOP, ME TOO
I really liked “Clocks.”
ME TOO, when I first heard that, I was like, Now….that’s what I call music.
I also really liked “Lovesong” by Sara Bareilles, which is entirely different, but I was also like...that’s what I call music. Also Paramore and Deathcab, and I was like…..this is also Music. I still love all this stuff
I still listen to all this stuff pretty much on the regular, even though I laugh about it
Yeah! And at the time, all of these things were coded as feminine. Even Coldplay, which was, not a boyband, but kind of more healing.
Right, like ~emotional boys~, ~soft boys~, this sort of soft masculinity before it was talked about and memed.
I went from wanting to be a popstar, to wanting to be in bands, to wanting to do comics, and then I was like...I want to be painter! I did a lot of paintings, and then I wanted to be an actor. I was fixated on stardom, on theater. I was in all the plays of my freshman year.
Then I moved schools, and this guy who didn’t even like me and stopped talking to me, but I liked him---I wrote this psycho-opera about him. It was all songs about him, and it was super awkward. I recorded an album about him. He started being nice to me, and then I was just like…...here’s an album…
I was like, that was fun, but then I started to getting into Wes Anderson. And Woody Allen, but #WORST. And then Godard, which was better. Then I started making movies. And I saw 30 Rock, and it confirmed what I wanted to do.
I love how you go from Godard to 30 Rock
I know!! I was very all over the map. Then I started watching more experimental films and wild stuff, so it’s been a journey to where I’m at now.
The wrapping up portion, something I ask at the end of every interview...this is actually the first interview I’ve done that’s over the phone, an actual physical conversation. And the form of how I’ve conducted each interview has really affected it.
How would you describe the future of literature in a tweet-length? Or a sort of verbal tweet length, also tweets are longer now so….yeah….
Just did futurelit vol. 4 with @marlonbrandositonmyface :’) We talked about poetry, Brujería, Mormonism, mind/body connection, and how social media is shaping the writing process. Check it next week <3
read futurelit vol. 3 with @starlit-void here
read more about futurelit here
I knew for a fact that for volume 3, I had to cover a twitter bot. Come hang with me and starlit void for a while and see why---
The boom of Creative Writing Twitter is a natural extension of how we communicate today: quickly, constantly, concisely, urgently.
But short doesn’t mean simple: following the ethos of writing (or subverting) formal verse poetry, the restraints of Twitter often produce the most creative content. Among them are many creative writing-oriented twitterbots. These clusters of code generate tweets following a certain linguistic--and sometimes also visual--structure a set amount of times per day. Some results are "better” (more beautiful, or more hilarious, or more surprising, or more mundane, or more....) than others, but it’s always enchanting to watch unfold.
The dependable, structured presence of twitterbots--however unexpected the results---on our feeds makes them eventually feel like a friend---oddly human.
One creative writing bot that stands out to me is starlit void’s quietscape--the bot pairs a colorful, randomly generated, geometric digital landscape picture with a short, fantastical suggestion/description. Each tweet creates an environment for thoughts to exist in, like a creative writing prompt. At least for me, it serves an essential meditative function within hectic internet space.
I knew that my conversation with starlit void would be a rad discussion about writing and tech, but it bloomed into so much more: an oral history of bot world, seriously cool meditations on mental health, Soundcloud playlist suggestions, + more! Keeping with the futurelit tradition (and my own personal tradition), we avoided a phone call and did our chat over Twitter DMs this time:
what is your favorite environment to create in? (whether it's a certain physical space, listening to a certain kind of music/silence, etc.)
i typically like to be well-caffeinated, alone or in a cafe, & excited about getting something working.... there's a thin line between excited & stressed about how something is going to turn out. i used to go to "game jams" until i discovered it was actually really stressful for me. i'm trying to be more relaxed about my creative output (this is easier said than done) & trying to avoid equating prolificness w/ human value. i think i do my best work when the intended audience is very selective, even 1 or 2 people, or just for myself. i also listen to what i call "robot music" a lot, for example this sort of mix.
----continue below----
tell me a little bit about how you came up with your bot 'quietscape' -- what were your inspirations for it?
as i believe you had already guessed, @quietscape was first intended as a prompt bot, for getting some creative thoughts limbered up.
at first the output was text only, which was easy to do using tracery (TRACERY PLUG: tracery by @galaxykate along w/ http://cheapbotsdonequick.com by @v21 are hands down the greatest twitterbot making tools around, lowering bar to entry for many many people into the complex world of botmakery).
i think at first i did use a few of them as prompts, but quietscape was ultimately too bland & not interesting enough. i added the raytraced images as a proof-of-concept & it's remained almost unchanged ever since. quietscape is still a work in progress!!!!! of course after adding images i came up w/ a huge complex system of how this takes place on a mysterious earth-sized artifact orbiting a binary star system blah blah blah but i felt it was more important to synchronize tweets to my own daytime schedule. i found some code to roughly calculate sunlight intensity & sunrise/sunset times at roughly my latitude for a planet that's roughly earthlike & that was "good enough"!
the schedule is also in line w/ some of my thoughts on bot tweeting volumes. i like that quietscape only tweets 5 times a day (dawn, afternoon, dusk, midnight, & a daily "shrine" tweet), which i think helps keep xem from getting too familiar or overstaying xyr welcome.
i love procedural generation but our minds can feel out the recurring pattern of a bot very quickly, even if there are 50 bazillion possible combinations, which sounds good on paper but doesn't actually provide human quality variety in the output. my partial answer was to make a terse bot. as far as actual inspirations go: quietscape owes quite a lot to tsutomu nihei's architectural renderings, @katierosepipkin & @lorenschmidt's collaborative work, and @edclef & @davidkanaga's game _proteus_. the daily "shrine" tweets are thanks to @trapitolina's @obelisk_bot, which got me thinking about adding more of a physical location feel to quietscape.
what do you love most about coding as an art/writing form, and how did you get into it?
i see generative & algorithm-assisted creativity as a vast & mostly untapped field, where the product isn't really the product, but a wild & nearly organic factory that can make lots of weird & surprising things.
i think @katierosepipkin said it best in their interview:
"Here, the cartographer draws the cliffs that contain a sea of one hundred thousand artworks. And then one searches for the most beautiful piece of coral inside of their waters."
this resonates w/ me, especially this feedback loop of curated generation (generate a huge number of results & then pick out the best ones). of course that's hard to do when making a bot that supposedly exists independent of human interference. there are a lot of successful procedurally generated experiences out there & yet i think there is much to be learned about how we can work hand-in-hand w/ computers to make more human accessible works. @emshort explores this a whole bunch in her notes following the text of "the annals of the parrigues" (see page 81), "the state of the roads", & it's really eye-opening & exciting.
on the other end of the spectrum, it's exciting to me that there are several wonderful tools available for picking up rule-based creativity & just making it. i would love to make tools that help people get started down the road of algorithmic creativity. i would love to see more voices using these techniques.
I can't help but notice that your 'quietscape' website is hosted on neocities---were you into geocities when you were younger? and if so, do you have any cool memories about it? (or about any other piece of the internet that's not around anymore that you're nostalgic for?)
sure!!! i had a geocities site & i'm still known to gawk in awe at mid-90s web aesthetics. but even more important than that, i think it's crucial we move away from centralized conglomerate based media platforms for our creative output. html remains a viable technology for sharing ideas & presenting them online, & to get started you just need to copy paste some nearly-human-readible code. returning to lists of url links & webrings & simple web crawlers as the means to discover other sites.... it's not democratic or equal in any sense, but in hindsight it seems better than entrusting your content to an algorithm w/ an intrinsic corporate bias. geocities was the era during which we were sure that the internet had come to free us all from ignorance & relying on centralized systems. 20 years later, 3 or 4 companies control almost everything you do online. the bleak cyberpunk corporate surveillance police state of the 80s is happening instead. i'd love to go back to those innocent days & work for a better distribution of technology. or breaking systems down, i don't know. relying on systems is killing us.
which projects are you currently working on, or would like to in the near future?
the big theme of what it would be like to live in a weird endless megastructure has haunted me for about 15 years so i'll probably still find ways to explore that in future work. the two other forces that draw me kind of go hand in hand but they're also kind of opposite. i'd like to put more of myself in my work, & focus on some of the changes & revelations i've had over the past few years (gender, sexuality, identity in general). but also i'd like to address bigger issues, like stepping down & propping up marginalized voices.
post an image/images that feels like 'the future' to you
(x)
love mushbush's work & it feels out of time & futuristic in a playful way!
If the rumors are true that print is dying, then we’re in a zombie apocalypse. Booklr and the self-designated online community of book lovers, as well as publishing professionals and the more dismal-minded of authors, have been predicting the death of print culture for years. Yet it persists, with physical books still outselling e-books by a hugely significant margin. Zine fairs, DIY publishing, and small publishers creating beautiful physical copies are popping up everywhere in my feeds and in the culture, and I’m excited about it. If anything, the intensification of the digital realm has increased the demand--and need--for print publications. They complement each other in ways that no one (or at least, of other non-tech-native generations....no shade dad) could have predicted.
It’s appropriate that the first interview in the series is with the Road Virus, a horror-genre-and-queer-focused mobile bookstore currently traveling the United States. I came across the Road Virus in the digital realm, where we followed each others’ writing. We hit it off right away, because we both have telephone anxiety and have a passion for the non-hierarchical, accessible future of literary culture. Sade and I had a conversation on G-Chat about what it’s like to run a mobile bookstore, Stephen King, accessibility in book culture, how libraries can save lives, and the future of lit. Check it out below:
So first off--thanks so much for your time/agreeing to this interview! I'm super stoked about the Road Virus and everything it's about.
Absolutely, and again––thanks so much for doing this interview project in the first place. I definitely feel like now, more than ever, the world needs a good strong focus on things with a literary bent. The best part is that we're the ones writing, in realtime, the history of our own culture.
Give me your elevator pitch for the Road Virus--except the elevator is broken, so you have more time than you thought.
The Road Virus is a time-tested dream come true. Born out of displeasure with the stasis of ordinary living, my best friend Em and I decided that we wanted to open a bookstore. Books and literature have been in our bloodstreams since before anything else really mattered, so we decided to make that a tangible reality.
Unfortunately, since things in life are so uncertain, opening a brick-and-mortar store just didn't seem feasible. So, we decided on the next best thing––we bought a bus and converted it into a half-RV home, half-mobile bookstore. Lucking out with an ex bookmobile, we decided to focus on fringe genres such as horror, sci-fi, subversive graphic novels and comics, erotica, fantasy, and so on––both due to our limited space and our own inherent interests.
We plan to visit even the most remote parts of the US––and someday beyond––with the concept in mind that a lot of places don't have access to the kind of wares we're totting.
Now, I imagine the elevator creaking, hitching––giving us a fleeting hope––and then plummeting down the shaft. We're probably fine.
------------------------------ keep reading below -------------------------------
How did you and Em meet to form this dynamic duo of traveling booksellers?
We met by the grace of a mutual friend. A night out drinking in one of the darkest and dingiest bars in the world led to a weirdly cohesive and whirlwind friendship. After discovering our shared love and obsession with books and bookstores, we came around to discussing the idea of opening and running our own. We ended up taking a pretty much spur-of-the-moment trip to Tokyo; something about that trip set reality in motion and things ended up happening so fast that I still look back on it and wonder if it wasn't all just a dream.
Is the name the Road Virus inspired by the Stephen King short story?
It certainly is. With our main focus being on horror and all things related, we felt like we needed a name which not only reflected the contents of our shelves, but also our goal.
In the story, the Road Virus is a car owned by an interdimensional killer; it travels across the US, leaving a swath of death and destruction in its wake. Less on the murder-y side for us, we see it as a way of spreading knowledge––which, of course, can be one of the deadliest and most destructive tools of all. The story, which first appeared in the anthology 999––edited by Al Sarrantonio, this book has been one of my most prized possessions since childhood––has always stood out to me; when we were kicking around ideas for names, The Road Virus was one of the first I jotted down. It came back, and it stuck.
Also, when I saw that your name was the Road Virus, I couldn't help but connect the resilience of the killer painting in the story with what you both are doing for print literature---in a positive, not at all murderous way--that bookstores are closing down, and people proclaim that print lit is dying, but the Road Virus is an active example of print literature's resilience against all odds. With that in mind---what would you say to people who claim that print lit is dying? and what pushed you to start the Road Virus at this moment in time?
I really enjoy the emphasis we're both putting on this totally not being a murder thing at all, whatsoever.
To those who say that print lit is dying, that books are obsolete, that the internet is the only way to acquire new information and fiction, I say: barring the physical process of a body shutting down and decomposing, something can only truly die if you allow it to. As long as there is at least one person publishing a book or zine and one person reading it, the concepts and idealism and spirit of print lit will survive and thrive.
Yes! It's so important to me that you connect physical, print lit with physical bodies. The power of print literature is that it creates physical community in a way that digital can't do alone. And physically showing up for something you care about can, and will, keep it alive.
Absolutely. Something that people need to remember now more than ever is that we have the ability to influence anything and everything. There is always a light in the dark, and we always have the choice to make something of ourselves and our surroundings. We are not powerless. For people like us, books have always been an escape, but they're also so much more: calling cards, symbols of power, beacons of hope tying groups together and ripping old systems apart.
Literacy is an extremely important thing to both of us––Em, as you said, is a former librarian, and I myself basically learned all I know from books. Libraries and bookstores were like second homes to us as kids––and sometimes, more so a first home to me personally. I dropped out of school at a very early age and attribute the majority of my ability to comprehend the world around me to the free, open-access presence of libraries. I come from a non-academic background, and Em comes from one of thorough education-oriented leanings; this combination suits us to a t.
The idea that they're dying out and being defunded saddens us greatly, and we feel the need to bring back those concepts to the forefront.
Mutually, we wanted this to be a bookselling venture so that we can sustain ourselves through the trade itself; however, we definitely felt the need to interweave the free and open-source aspect of libraries. We're still working out the avenues of providing reading lessons, and have quite a few ideas in mind for things like free movie nights and author readings.
What's being on the road like? Where have you been, and do you have any weird stories/interesting encounters?
Living in San Francisco, we've been very fortunate to have some amazing haunts. I think we owe a lot of our inspiration for The Road Virus to our favorite daily stop, Aardvark Books on the historic Church St.
Actually, we've been drydocked, so to speak. Our goodly vessel has been parked at a friend's about an hour northeast of SF for over a month now; we've been living on the bus full time while we've been renovating and preparing for permanent life on the road. We also unfortunately ran into some issues with the electrical system, which is being taken care of this week.
Regardless, we're both pretty nomadic people, and we can't wait to officially take off. I can say that driving the bus back to the buildsite was a hell of a trip.
Before we got her, Jolene––our name for the bus––lived a quiet life in Kansas City, MO. We flew in and were planning on driving her back in 2-3 days. This, as it turned out, was absolutely impossible. It ended up taking a week, and was rife with complications; we broke down numerous times, ended up sleeping in the uninsulated bus in -20 degree weather, and had endless scares on the road. Driving through the midwest was like traveling through a different world. I don't think I've been stared at that much in my entire life, except maybe in Tokyo (I'm covered in tattoos, piercings, etc.).
The drive back over the CA state line was like something out of a dream––more a nightmare, maybe. We drove into one of the worst rainstorms I think I've ever seen, to the point where cars were sliding all over the road, trucks were going 20mph on the highway, and vehicles our size were actually barred from driving any farther at a certain point, so we were all lined up on the side of the highway for hours. This was on about 36 hours of no sleep. As far as fun stories on the road, in my experience they are many and not-so-far in between; we'll have plenty to share once we really get going, I'm sure. Driving through the snow-covered Rockies in a 32' bus when neither of us had driven anything larger than a UHAUL truck was certainly one for the books.
Lastly, in a quick semi-tweet-length: How do envision the future of literature?
Futurelit, the Tweetening: Though ink may run, pages may yellow, & screens may flicker–the world of lit will forever reinvent itself, thriving in the face of adversity.
xxxxxxxxx
Follow the Road Virus everywhere:
(Facebook, Tumblr, Twitter, Instagram, and Snapchat) @roadvirusbus
Communicables: http://theroadvirus.com/blog
Reading Is Infectious (book subscription service) (http://shop.theroadvirus.com). A book in the genre of your choice delivered to your door every month.
I usually post a pic of my face on here every year to mark the passage of time, but this year I wanted to do something more. I’m truly excited to announce a project I’ve been working for the past few months called futurelit, launching right here on June 27th! futurelit is a series of conversations with people doing the absolute coolest shit in independent publishing/bookselling/writing about their projects, the internet, reading novels on your phone, what a novel even looks like in 2017, public libraries, capitalism, and the future of literature as we’re building it.
I started Booklust and Stardust at age 16 in my local Borders (RIP) with the intention of making it a straightforward book review site. But interacting with the possibilities that Tumblr afforded as a platform quickly changed not only the way I approached running this blog, but the way I approach writing, reading, and community building within literary culture--and beyond.
My 7 (!) years of running this blog put me in contact with people who blow my mind with the ways they innovate and change the landscape of literary culture, and most of all I want to highlight them with this project. Along with being inspired by so many people I came across with on here, I’ve also felt a strong sense of disillusionment with the mainstream publishing industry, and a lot of “literary culture” that is considered mainstream, both on and off this website: the canon (same 5 classic novels by white writers recycled, incessantly quoted and photographed), the imagery (a lot of literary pictures that value a very specific “literary” aesthetic, that isn’t comprehensive of the wide spectrum of ways people experience and contribute to literary culture), and also the obscuring of all of the amazing literary projects that are being done right now, particularly by young people.
This is my little way of connecting and highlighting this work, in my own little corner of the internet.
I have the traveling bookmobile-riding purveyors of all thinks literary, spooky, and queer the Road Virus coming up on June 27, and multimedia queer digital publisher Glo Worm, coming up on July 17th, with a lot more coming up (which may or may not include the creator of one of my favorite creative writing twitter bots !) Both conversations shaped this project, inspired me a lot, and shaped where this project is going.
If you’re doing a cool project in lit, or if you have a tip, throw it in my ask.
Thanks so much for all of your support always. Keep building.
<3 Ali
I had the honor of chatting with poet/photographer/California-based-force-of-nature Ingrid Calderon over Skype in late October. If I could reframe the circumstances of our conversation, like people in the early 2000s did to gloss over the embarrassment of their chatroom meet-cutes--it would be a chance encounter at a grassy park with a single sprawling tree and absolutely no one else there.
I want to thank Ingrid for her divine patience and persistence while I kept our conversation in the Disney Vault for a few months. I walked away from our Skype chat confident that our conversation was timeless; we talked about her poetic roots, the fresh (and stale) media platforms available to writers today, her Mormon upbringing, reclaiming her culture through Brujeria, among many other things.
But what I didn’t know was that one detail would immediately date our conversation: Twitter character limits. I never would have predicted that on November 7th 2017, a mere few weeks after our conversation, that Twitter would have upped character limits to 280. It seemed like a prank in every facet of its implementation: for days, Twitter turned into a long, long, long absurdist joke. And I just finished Futurelit Vol 3 with starlit void, all about bots and defying the formal restrictions of Twitter.
But I guess the biggest lesson here is that as soon as you feel at home with new media, familiar forms will morph, throw a jump-scare at you, and then immediately melt into the cycle of surprise, stretching strangely, seamlessly into the fold of shared medium-language within a few days. Maybe hours. Futurelit asf.
Check out our convo and Ingrid’s art at the jump:
What got you into writing poetry, and/or do you remember the first poem you ever wrote and the story behind that?
It was my 9th birthday, and I was hit by a motorcycle, knocked me out cold, broke both my ankles. I was bedridden and that’s when I realized that writing was something that I enjoyed and took great pleasure in doing for hours on end.
I remember having a pink panther notebook and filling it up with the introspections of a bedridden 9 year-old. My birthday is in December so it was paired with cold and a much necessary fireplace. I seriously didn’t even know wtf I was doing, I just knew it felt good to talk to someone that would listen without interfering.
I was still learning English at that point too, so it was a test in expression through a foreign filter.
Oh wow, so you wrote your first poetry in a second language?
I did. I knew Spanish, and spoke it everyday of course. Knew how to read and write it, but I never wrote in it for pleasure. In my mind, I had to assimilate now that we were in this country.
How old were you when you moved to the US? Also it's really interesting how your foray into expressive writing felt like not only a safe place to express your feelings, but as a safe way to test/build your expression in English.
I was 6 years-old. 1986 to be exact. When I was told we were moving to the States, I was thrilled to be plunged into it specifically for the opportunity to learn a new language. You’re fearless as a child I think. You see it as a challenge and not so much a fear sullied by doubt. I got made fun of by cousins who already knew the language and had been here for years, and I couldn’t understand their petty insults, so I was even more fueled by the need to insult them—poetically
OMG that's rad and also wildly impressive. That reminds me a little bit of Vladimir Nabokov's relationship with English---he's seen as a master of writing in English (he translated his own work, a lot of people think English is his first language), yet his relationship with English as a form of expression/second language was always one where he wanted to dominate it and master it, which pushed him creatively in a lot of ways
Oh wow, that’s wonderful, yes…It is by far, still, something I’m still learning. It is a beautiful sitar of comprehension. It seriously baffles me as to how many ways of expressing yourself exist within a limited 26 letters. It pushes you to make sounds that otherwise would not come out of your mouth. In the end, that’s all that language is, a serious of sounds and ideas. It’s up to us to understand it and if we’re brave enough, create our own.
^^^^ yes, definitely
How much has the internet/social media influenced your writing process? Do you still prefer writing physically/into notebooks, or do you write into computer documents/social media drafts/etc, and why?
I really enjoy social media. It has been a kind friend indeed. I’ve met writers whom I respect and that drives me to be as good as them. I write in both, and each carries its own sense of magick. They both make different thoughts come out of me. When I’m on the keyboard I have access to the internet, prompts, google etc…so it becomes a very involved sort of affair. With a notebook, it’s like getting down to roots. Lines and circles. Cave paintings I suppose. Where all you have, is what you’ve accumulated and the means to express it.
The social media site for writing I've been the most involved in over the years is Tumblr (as you've noticed, my Tumblr blog is booklust) --- but I've really seen poetry twitter taking over lately. I also see that you're involved in Instagram poetry
what's your favorite social media site for getting your writing out there/building your writing community?
Twitter & Instagram for sure. Though my love for Tumblr stands the test of time. Admittedly, Twitter is a high-speed coke addict from my perspective. It is a fiend. So it’s easy to get lost amongst the crowd. But it has showed me that it’s possible to connect with legit awesome humans. Instagram was a feat. I had my millennial friends help me with hashtags and such. I was a bit primitive in that aspect. But I’ve certainly experienced love their too. Of a different ilk.
How do you unplug/do you have any rituals you do when you want to get in the writing zone?
I write in my kitchen. Living in a small studio apartment with a musician has its—annoyances ha! But, my partner knows that when I start clearing the table and getting out my computer, thesaurus etc…it’s time to leave me be. I also take road trips to inspire and unplug. I need to get out of my head and out of my apartment to remember that there’s much inspiration beyond these four walls.
You’re involved with OCCULUM---can you tell me a little about that? And also your involvement in/relationship to the occult?
Arielle is a wonderful human. Good heart and dark mind. OCCULUM is one of my favorite publications out there right now. Her style and aesthetic speak to many, including me. My love for the occult comes from an unknown source. I’ll blame it on my being raised Mormon. I was able to see the hypocrisy within my own home and it made me understand and feel comfortable residing in the sinful, the selfish & the empowering. You grow up and understand that in the end, it’s simply just a surrendering to human condition. I read tarot for guidance when I’ve worn out my welcome with friends. I put my feet in Santeria when i became aware of its power for healing. Coming into your worth is something that magick can truly help with, as witches are nothing more than wounded souls who found formulas to heal themselves in this realm.
Yes def! The internet and tech is really cool, but it is also kind of really (physically) desensitizing, those who practice Santeria and different forms of magic seem very connected with their own physical selves and the earth, which is super healthy
It is definitely a vampire of sorts, isn’t it? Magick is the honoring of the self, its the ritual of coming back to our body. We float existentially almost daily, whether it’s because of work, personal shit or anything else that takes a toll on the body and psyche. There’s a visceral need to reconnect with the self. That’s where it comes in, that’s when it’s important.
How would you sort of paint the picture of what a modern writer/poet looks like (in the past, "writer" meant like some secluded dude with a typewriter--now writers are also their own promoters, website builders, designers, etc)
I often see Shiva, the "destroyer of evil and the transformer”. Slithering our fingers into everything that inspires. Still, with the immortal sense of dread and melancholy that is needed to create something that resonates. Isolation is needed. Socializing is needed. Networking is a huge part of getting your voice out there. Respecting those that you respect.
I know you grew up Mormon, how did your family feel about Brujeria? And how did you connect with it in your personal life?
It was a strange dichotomy. My parents are very much in it, but they’re still superstitious. Comes with the culture I’m sure. They’re not fully aware of my dealing with it, as I’m sure they wouldn’t be too happy about it. But they’ve also been the kind of humans who have let me lead my own path. They trust my judgments on how to live my best life. I took some aspects of Mormonism with me, I’ve recognize that as an adult. Nothing pertaining to Heaven, or the concept of eternal life…more so in the here and now. I am well prepared for catastrophe. As in, prepping. I was made aware of the finite aspect of existence and knew that in order to survive, one needs food and water in abundance. So basically, I’m the person you wanna live next to in case of a natural catastrophe ha! Other than that, nothing resonated.
Are you working on any larger projects right now/what is next for you?
I have 3 manuscripts finished. I’m also dabbling in photography as well. Something visual to accompany to the written. I’m hoping to find a publisher for my poetry manuscript, “outside noises” by the end of the year. If not, I will self-publish again. I’m just excited to share my take on the human condition with whomever is open to receive it.
especially in a hyper-capitalist society that attaches the worth of things to money----how would you describe the importance of writing/reading in today's world?
especially for voices that are too-often silenced by mainstream publishing
It’s one of our only true outlets. The written word is essential to growth and pleasure. Without being inspired by a great writer, other writers would not be birthed. One must see what great writing looks and feels and sounds like, so that in a way, we can mimic what we felt in the first place. If that makes any sense. A writer can take huge concepts and make them succinct, in language that hopefully infiltrates a revolution inside the individual reading it. Hence, the seed is planted. We must be timeless in our writing. Make it relevant now, and a hundred years from now.
how would you describe the future of literature? (in a tweet length, 140 characters or less) [edit: the character limit has changed since the making of this chat, which ages it slightly….]
It will hopefully become a tool and a home where rich voices will find forever homes. It will act as the catalyst for secrets, for hauntings, for pain, for healing, for love. It will hopefully be manna for the masses.
I went over. I apologize ha
HAHA it's fine
just proves that Twitter has its limits for writers LOL [hello again]
