Can you elaborate on your choices for a book focused Jonsa ship name? I liked all your suggestions and would enjoy reading more about their significance.
(About this thread.) For the blood of Winterfell, this exact phrase is used four times in the books, three in Jon's chapters and one in Sansa's. It ties Sansa and Jon to Winterfell and its future and arguably to the future of the Stark bloodline, and it's one of my personal favorite links between the characters.
ACoK, Jon VI
"Then you must do what needs be done," Qhorin Halfhand said. "You are the blood of Winterfell and a man of the Night's Watch."
ASoS, Jon VI
When the dreams took him, he found himself back home once more, splashing in the hot pools beneath a huge white weirwood that had his father's face. Ygritte was with him, laughing at him, shedding her skins till she was naked as her name day, trying to kiss him, but he couldn't, not with his father watching. He was the blood of Winterfell, a man of the Night's Watch. I will not father a bastard, he told her. I will not. I will not.
AFfC, Sansa
I am not your daughter, she thought. I am Sansa Stark, Lord Eddard's daughter and Lady Catelyn's, the blood of Winterfell.
The last Jon one is said by Stannis to Jon about Arnolf Karstark, and all four are examined here. The fact that this line is never connected with another Starkling is ... something (Arya has "the wolf blood" and that's the closest I believe. Note that this connects her to Starks who left Winterfell, not ones that stayed). Edits: 1, 2, 3.
Blood of Winterfell is also tangential to discussion in the books of who rebuilds Winterfell. Jon thinks (fantasizes) about it, and Sansa rebuilds it out of snow (foreshadowing!) while in the Eyrie.
I was being *a little* silly with the queen's crow suggestion, but I have reasons: Queenscrown is in the Gift, which some believe Jon will be lord of at the end of the books or have a hand in settling. See Bran III and Jon V in ASoS. Also see any time Jon thinks about settling the wildlings in the Gift, Ned's plans for the gift being "a dream for spring", and the position of respect Jon cultivates among the wildlings in Dance. (I couldn't find more meta about Jon as Lord of the Gift, though I swear there is. Maybe meta wizard @esther-dot can help.)
Those chapters in ASoS also arguably include queen Sansa foreshadowing and a possible "together but apart" ending for Jonsa (Jon tells Ygritte that "a queen stayed there for a night"). Take the n off crown to make it crow, which is just silly but go with it, and you get Queen's crow. Queen=Sansa, crow=Jon, and all together it's a nod to Queenscrown/the Gift/a possible ending. (For more on Queen Sansa as a possibility in the books: autonomy meta, Northern houses ruled by women, composure in crisis. Also: Arya's "no, that's Sansa" about being queen, Cat's "Sansa might someday be queen", Sansa's "If I am ever a queen, I'll make them love me", her storyline constantly involving lessons in bad and good leadership, etc.)
I rest my case.
I didn't mention this one before, but there are plenty of thematic reasons why Snow&Stone works too (Snow+Stone?). Sansa's identity as Alayne Stone is more significant in the books, the names are representative of their parallel journeys, and they're representative of the Jonsa goodies in Alayne II of Feast when Sansa descends the waycastles, Sky, Snow, and Stone.
"Jon Snow?" she blurted out, surprised.
"Snow? Yes, it would be Snow, I suppose."
She had not thought of Jon in ages. He was only her half brother, but still . . . with Robb and Bran and Rickon dead, Jon Snow was the only brother that remained to her. I am a bastard too now, just like him. Oh, it would be so sweet, to see him once again. But of course that could never be. Alayne Stone had no brothers, baseborn or otherwise.
&
All around was empty air and sky, the ground falling away sharply to either side. There was ice underfoot, and broken stones just waiting to turn an ankle, and the wind was howling fiercely. It sounds like a wolf, thought Sansa. A ghost wolf, big as mountains.
Lately I've been toying with the idea that Jon will indeed become king of the FF. It's the only reasonable ending for him, the only one that matches both Jon's show ending and Sansa's book foreshadowing (to marry a king, not a prince, not a king who had been). I think the show ending on such ambiguous (and bitter!) terms for Jon was decided because of the sequel. In other words, I'm considering the possibility that M. will transfer his 5year gap at the end, and we'll see them again at the end after some time will have lapsed and they'll be older and firmly in their positions. But, with this ending I'm afraid we'll only get hints of Jon and Sansa's romance on page, and nothing too explicit (although I guess that it might have a role in Daeny's death).
I think that, throughout the book, the famous "the FF don't kneel" is only meant to be subverted: they will kneel to Jon, after everything he has done for them, and he will probably settle them in the Gift(s). In my opinion, this ending is truly poetic. If ASoIaF is a fairytale, then the hidden prince does not become king because of his inheritance (which he has already foresaken just as he will reject the Targaryen inheritance: so vividly given as "I don't want it!" in the show, lol), but has forged a kingdom for himself, because he is truly worth it. I am not sure that he will go to the Wall because he will be punished, but regardless, he will become king of the FF. If it will be like this, then Jon's ending is the apotheosis of subversions.
And only as an equal will he be able to marry Sansa: when Sansa becomes queen, everybody will want her for her claim twice over, unless her husband is already king. I think this ending is foreshadowed in her ASOS, Sansa IV chapter: two castles in the sky, one black, one grey, become one in all the colors of spring. Note that this is something Sansa sees in the morning sky, meaning after dawn.
And with this explanation I've made peace with the disastrously ambiguous ending of GoT.
I wish you'll make your peace too, Esther!
(old anon btw, anxiously waiting for your posts for years, and now this darn thing made take a name. So be it).
It's so nice to finally "meet" you @justleaves!
I like that reading of book foreshadowing and the mess GoT gave us. You know I can't agree with most of the fandom that we can entirely or even mostly dismiss the show's ending. Too much of it gave me that, "it was always meant to be this way" feeling and since the ending of the show, Jonsas have turned up a lot of foreshadowing for Arya sailing away, King Bran, Dark Dany, Jaime and Cersei dying together...so many things were kinda-sorta right, just presented so horribly they felt wrong!
I've always felt very weird about Jon becoming King of the FF, most of us Jonsas reject that out of hand because it really rubs us the wrong way, but I had a series of anons critical of Martin's handling of aspects of Dany's POV some time ago, particularly how he characterized the Dothraki, and I did go back to read/re-watch some interviews, and I've accepted he doesn't share our sensibilities there, or on a handful of other issues. I hadn't even realized I was projecting when I dismissed the possibility of a kid from a different culture becoming the leader of an indigenous group. To me that is inherently negative. But of course, at the time when Martin began all this, it wasn't generally perceived that way, and we have Mance so...
Right after GoT ended some of us speculated that not including the Gift was why they had Jon ride off past the Wall with the FF, while in the books, he might be responsible for the Gift, so I really like how you've blended the two. I've written before about how it would make sense to me that Jon rejects the Stark/Northern claim and then rejects the Targaryen/Southern claim, and is rewarded in he end for those decisions, and I think it would be a more satisfying resolution to the bastard struggle if he is chosen as a leader because of who he is rather than who his "father" is (whether we mean Ned's son -> KitN or Rhaegar's son -> Targ heir). The way Jon is of the North, has such connections to the Starks (whether as Ned's bastard or Lyanna's boy post parentage reveal) as well as his time with the FF, the understanding he has and care he has for them which others do not, well, it certainly sets him up as a great bridge between the cultures. A person uniquely capable of creating a lasting peace.
I also really like your idea of the time-lapse because a) Sansa's age b) allowing all these revelations time to settle. I can't rationalize how the cast of characters would accept Jon as the legitimized son of Ned, only to turn around and accept that actually he's Lyanna's son, and how they'd be ok with a Jonsa marriage immediately thereafter. And that's not even dealing with how he'll be perceived/the rumors that will be swirling around him post rez and whatever his actions are immediately after. Love it in fics, but when I think about it in Martin's words, hard for me to imagine, so the idea that in a few years after Jon has established himself they'd be able to marry, that makes sense to me.
I think this ending is foreshadowed in her ASOS, Sansa IV chapter: two castles in the sky, one black, one grey, become one in all the colors of spring. Note that this is something Sansa sees in the morning sky, meaning after dawn.
That is a beautiful reading of the scene! I can easily see that being the idea! The other reading I've seen on this is that it's the Jon and Sansa competing claims being joined as the solution to the Northern succession crisis (that may be @agentrouka-blog's spec? I'm not successfully turning anything up atm). I had actually written into the margins in my copy "sounds like Winterfell" by the line about a castle in ruins, and later in ASOS, we have back to back Jon and Sansa chapters that talk about Winterfell and have a weird number of similarities (link). But, specifically, the ruins/rebuilding idea seems like it points to Jon and Sansa's stories converging and allowing them to restore Winterfell together:
The warmth took some of the ache from his muscles and made him think of Winterfell's muddy pools, steaming and bubbling in the godswood. Winterfell, he thought. Theon left it burned and broken, but I could restore it. Surely his father would have wanted that, and Robb as well. They would never have wanted the castle left in ruins. (Jon XII, ASOS)
The snow fell and the castle rose. Two walls ankle-high, the inner taller than the outer. Towers and turrets, keeps and stairs, a round kitchen, a square armory, the stables along the inside of the west wall. It was only a castle when she began, but before very long Sansa knew it was Winterfell. She found twigs and fallen branches beneath the snow and broke off the ends to make the trees for the godswood. For the gravestones in the lichyard she used bits of bark. Soon her gloves and her boots were crusty white, her hands were tingling, and her feet were soaked and cold, but she did not care. The castle was all that mattered. Some things were hard to remember, but most came back to her easily, as if she had been there only yesterday. The Library Tower, with the steep stonework stair twisting about its exterior. The gatehouse, two huge bulwarks, the arched gate between them, crenellations all along the top . . . (Sansa VII, ASOS)
So as always, I see the pros, I see the cons, I can't make up my mind, but I'm ok with that. I have no problem talking about GoT/my frustrations when I get an ask, but after I wrote my post canon fic Free, I just...wasn't angry anymore. D&D's choices will always baffle me, I'm disappointed we don't have TWOW yet, but I enjoy the different spec, fics, gifs, and art we have in the Jonsa fandom, so as long as we're all having fun, I'm happy.
I'd love to read any other observations you have about ASOIAF and fairytales, I think posts about parallels with other lit are fascinating!
I know Jon killing D@ny is not something everyone agrees on for book canon, but for those willing to entertain it*: thoughts on if he kills her before or after he finds out they're related? I guess I had assumed if it happens, he would kill her knowing they're related because there's conflict in that. But. What if he and Sansa commit a little pseudo-incest (oops! the ~angst~), then he goes south and kills D@ny, and then, either when he's still south or when he's back home, he finds out about RLJ. Yay, you're not closely enough related to the girl you're sweet on for it to be wrong, but you're also now a kinslayer :-/. What do we think??
* I am pretty flexible with most reasonable theories, I think it's fun to speculate and find reasons for multiple possibilities, but we're also not getting ADoS, sooo ... The only thing I have really dug my heels in about is that Jonsa foreshadowing is intentional, lol.
Martin loves circular endings and irony though and endings where history rhymes. So Jon back at the wall makes a ton of sense thematically. I remember watching the show before even reading the books and when we we found out that Aemon, the maester at the wall, was a Targ and came to the wall/became a maester almost in a self-sacrificial way to not cause any problems re future claims to the Iron Throne my first thought was 'Yeah, this is gonna be Jon's endgame. Aemon is his mirror character and he will end up back at the wall repeating history.' Low and behold 8 years later I was right lmao. A lot of Jon fans don't like his ending because they think he's a hero and good guy so he doesn't deserve to go back to the wall. The nature of tragic or ironic endings are not about what characters deserve, half the characters in the books didn't deserve what happened to them, that's what makes it tragic and ironic.
Aemon, the maester at the wall, was a Targ and came to the wall/became a maester almost in a self-sacrificial way to not cause any problems re future claims to the Iron Throne
Why must you hurt me this way?
'Yeah, this is gonna be Jon's endgame. Aemon is his mirror character and he will end up back at the wall repeating history.'
Stop, I beg.
Low and behold 8 years later I was right lmao.
Listen here, you smug bastard! 😂
A lot of Jon fans
I am of the variety
don't like his ending
it fucking sucks, but go on
because they think he's a hero
wishing that some hero would throw him down and cut off his head --> Longclaw descended
and good guy so he doesn't deserve to go back to the wall
NO ONE DESERVES TO BE AT THE WALL IT IS A CORRUPT INSTITUTION USED TO UNJUSTLY PUNISH BOYS! FORCED VOWS OF CELIBACY ARE WRONG! THE IDEA OF PREVENTING SOMEONE FROM FEELING LOVE IS STUPID AND TAKING THEIR FUTURE FROM THEM IS VILE! (*screams for 17 minutes*) AND ANOTHER THING-- (*slaps myself*) —I'm not overly fond of the Watch, now that you mention it.
The nature of tragic or ironic endings are not about what characters deserve, half the characters in the books didn't deserve what happened to them
Oh. I guess I could have read the whole ask before gnawing on my dresser.
that's what makes it tragic and ironic.
*gasps* You smart ass! Lmaooo. I did not see that coming from the beginning, I'm so impressed you called it that early on! And before you knew he was a Targ? Or had you clocked that by then too? That had to be the best feeling that while the rest of us were bitching and moaning you were like, tell me something I didn't know from s1. My gosh. The people you watched it with must have been so annoyed with you! Wait, if you knew Jon was Aemon-ing, who did you think would rule in the end?
The problem is not that Jon’s ending is circular, the problem is that there is no pay off for his parentage.
Let me say it again: everything about the ending remains unchanged if Jon is Ned’s bastard.
Bran can still be voted King, Jon can still kill D, Sansa still gets the crown if Jon is just a Snow.
Btw, Jon already sacrificed himself so the Starks could have their wolves.
Where’s the pay off for him being a half Targ?
everything about the ending remains unchanged if Jon is Ned’s bastard
Not everything ⬇️
The show did nothing with R+L=J, but it's possible that Martin always intended to subvert the secret prince trope and instead of him becoming king, he’s the means for an even unlikelier candidate to do so. As in, Dany conquers KL, she dies, Jon is a Targ, he refuses the throne when it’s offered, that's how they look to Bran. That's the resolution to all the Stark v Targ stuff, a Targ in the end, bending the knee to a Stark. That's fun, answering some pre-canon stuff, gives us the known endgame for Bran.
And, I'm of the opinion that Jon and Sansa would never act on their feelings while they thought they were half-siblings, so even if Jon ultimately did have to go to the Wall, being a Targ would mean he might confess his feelings, there could even be a secret wedding or a child, there's lots of ways that a similar-ish ending could have much more beauty and meaning.
But I did point out to @eonweheraldodemanwe that the Wall ending feels like it’s no longer a workable solution which gives me some hope.
There is a difference between Aemon and show Jon. Aemon willingly went to the Wall so he didn't threaten Aegon V. Jon was sent to the Wall by everyone as a peace offering to Greyworm. Is Bot the dame because Jon has no personal choice in the show.
(about this ask)
Oh, absolutely! The show fucked that up. If the ending is the Wall, it would have to be abdication/choosing the Wall.
But, as I've said before, even though I've accepted that ending, I definitely think the Lord of the Gift ending is a compelling theory, especially because the Wall ending makes no sense anyway. Jon is a man of the Watch and they already think he's a traitor, he's gonna go help retake Winterfell and will be involved in handling the Targ threat. Who is gonna believe that him returning to the Wall will prevent him from getting involved in the realm's business/politics?
"I mean it this time, for realzies."
Please. I mean, I still think it's possible, but it's already been undermined as a solution. In the show he left, became king, and then went back. It just doesn't work!
What some of us talked about after the show ended was that perhaps through some scheming, Tyrion does end up hand for a time, and that originally planned feud between him and Jon manifests in him finagling to keep Jon at the Wall, but eventually, Jon is able to return to Winterfell. That works with that odd "in ten years" line which felt like we were being given a date for when the future would be brighter for our boy.
Only, Jon is not Aemon. I can't see how he mirrors Aemon. Aemon dodged responsibility; Jon assumes responsibility whenever it is needed. Aemon hid away in the Wall because he refused to take the role he was given (becoming a king). Jon went there to make sth of himself and because there was nothing for him in his own home. Jon is nothing like Aemon imo. I think, all readers saw the similarities, but they are sumperficial. (dif anon, if that wasn't clear, haha).
(about this ask)
I don’t think it is so much that the guys are the same as the passages about Aemon feel like foreshadowing. The idea is that Dany takes KL, bringing the throne back into Targ hands, and then you read this passage with Jon in the Aemon role, Bran in the Aegon role:
Jon was not entirely innocent of the history of the realm; his own maester had seen to that. "That was the year of the Great Council," he said. "The lords passed over Prince Aerion's infant son and Prince Daeron's daughter and gave the crown to Aegon."
"Yes and no. First they offered it, quietly, to Aemon. And quietly he refused. The gods meant for him to serve, not to rule, he told them. He had sworn a vow and would not break it, though the High Septon himself offered to absolve him. Well, no sane man wanted any blood of Aerion's on the throne, and Daeron's girl was a lackwit besides being female, so they had no choice but to turn to Aemon's younger brother—Aegon, the Fifth of His Name. Aegon the Unlikely, they called him, born the fourth son of a fourth son. Aemon knew, and rightly, that if he remained at court those who disliked his brother's rule would seek to use him, so he came to the Wall. And here he has remained, while his brother and his brother's son and his son each reigned and died in turn, until Jaime Lannister put an end to the line of the Dragonkings."
"King," croaked the raven. The bird flapped across the solar to land on Mormont's shoulder. "King," it said again, strutting back and forth. (ACOK, Jon I)
The birds comments are generally accepted as references to R+L=J, so I think this is a compelling theory. Also, the chapter has a whole bit about how Jon feels about his brother being king. And then there is this:
"Aye," Slynt said. "A blind man with a chain about his neck, who does he think he is?"
Aemon Targaryen, Jon thought, a king's son and a king's brother and a king who might have been. But he said nothing. (ASOS, Jon X)
Which I've pointed to before as potential foreshadowing since Jon's description of Aemon could be a description of Jon. Of course, this is mainly about the abdication and getting king bran, it doesn't mean Jon has to go to the Watch. If the North is free, maybe he'll have better options.
There is so much speculation about the Snowsequel! We have the “doom” side and we have the “Jonsa can still win” side and it’s kind of entertaining to see both sides lol. I am a bit surprised by the antis reaction too, it’s incredible how much they still hate Sansa when by show canon the one who actually won the game of thrones and wears the crown that was supposed to be Dragon Barbie’s was Bran??
Funny how they don’t say anything about how Bran will die and how much Jon hates him? Hmmm.
Anyway, I was wondering something about the show. We could say that technically all the Starks had a happy ending except Jon. In spite of the awful writing we can see how Sansa has a purpose, Bran is ruling, and Arya is out there having fun and discovering stuff.
But Jon is...punished, or exiled, or something like that, leaving audiences confused. They refused to present Jon as the villain and yet, he didn’t end as a hero either.
I find it quite suspicious, because in the final montage they present all the Starks as happy, and let Jon keep his sword and Ghost and his wildling friends and that is not the ending of a failed leader, or a broken man, cursed by kinslaying. Either Jon is part of the pack and somehow ends on top like the rest of them, or...falls and ends like a villain. In which case his ending should have been even worse that it was.
So, to me, Jon’s ending is purposely obscured and there is something inexplicable about his not cursed ending (as there is for Tyrion, but I digress).
Do you think the show omitted essential info (idk, something about Brandon’s Gift or something) about how Jon ends in the North again?
I’m on the “doom” side but I’m cheering on the “Jonsa can still win” side!
It really doesn’t matter to me if the rest of the fandom likes Sansa or not, but the obsessive hatred of her in some corners is disturbing. I guess maybe D&D spared Bran some hate by ignoring him instead of subjecting him to their crap writing and the the fandom kinda follows their lead and ignores him too. Silver linings? 😬
“...and let Jon keep his sword and Ghost and his wildling friends and that is not the ending of a failed leader, or a broken man, cursed by kinslaying”
I like your evidence that Jon isn’t cursed/this isn’t meant to be a hopeless ending for him. It’s certainly possible that D&D, out of fear of backlash if they gave Dany’s assassin a good ending, chose to send him to the Wall again rather than give him an unambiguously good ending. The riding off with the FF thing could have even been them thinking, “well gee, he’s our second most popular character, maybe it’s too much to send him to the Wall. Let’s fuzzy this ending to allow people to imagine it anywhere on the scale of back in the Watch or fucking off forever to make snow angels with Tormund.” I did think a lot of s8 was written to manage the audience, not to tell a good/believable story, so I wouldn’t put it past them to have had such a though process. There’s also the possibility that the weirdness around Jon’s ending could simply be the product of their failure to communicate well. The actors have said things that contradict the director of any given episode and D&D contradict that, and each other, and themselves, so that may be the explanation. They were each telling a different story? I mean, reading the finale script was surreal because some of what was said wasn’t really the same as what we saw 😂
When I heard Martin was on board for the Jonsquel, I did think maybe it pointed to the endgame being Jon in exile before a Jonsa reunion when they’re older. I’m not sure who pointed this out after the finale, but it would be another parallel between Aragorn and Arwen if this was the case. Aragorn fell in love with Arwen but then went off as a ranger for some time before they were reunited. It’s possible Martin thought to the end the stories with a promise that a sequel could explore, but then again, it could just be him trying to prevent HBO from going further off the rails with Jon. I’m trying not to read too much into it because I’m not sure that he could put the kibosh on anything even if he really disliked the idea, so I don’t think it confirms anything.
Jon, Lord of the Gift, is a very popular theory in our circle and for good reason. I can’t remember who started it now, but I think of it as istumpysk and agentrouka-blog‘s baby, each of whom I consider more an ASOIAF expert than myself. However, I totally believed Martin that GoT’s ending would be his, and in spite of how I feel about the ending, I’ve never been able to let that belief go, no matter how much I want to. I’m not going to try to persuade people not to believe in alternative endings, I’d like to believe it myself! This one in particular has lots of quotes that make you go 👀👀👀
"Who holds this land?" Jojen asked Bran.
"The Night's Watch," he answered. "This is the Gift. The New Gift, and north of that Brandon's Gift." Maester Luwin had taught him the history. "Brandon the Builder gave all the land south of the Wall to the black brothers, to a distance of twenty-five leagues. For their . . . for their sustenance and support." He was proud that he still remembered that part. "Some maesters say it was some other Brandon, not the Builder, but it's still Brandon's Gift. Thousands of years later, Good Queen Alysanne visited the Wall on her dragon Silverwing, and she thought the Night's Watch was so brave that she had the Old King double the size of their lands, to fifty leagues. So that was the New Gift." He waved a hand. "Here. All this." (ASOS, Bran III)
(each time we get Brandon confusion sirens go off in my head!)
and
"What happened to them?"
"They died or went away." Brandon's Gift had been farmed for thousands of years, but as the Watch dwindled there were fewer hands to plow the fields, tend the bees, and plant the orchards, so the wild had reclaimed many a field and hall. In the New Gift there had been villages and holdfasts whose taxes, rendered in goods and labor, helped feed and clothe the black brothers. But those were largely gone as well.
and
After. The word was a spear thrust. After the war. After the conquest. After the wildlings break the Wall . . . His lord father had once talked about raising new lords and settling them in the abandoned holdfasts as a shield against wildlings. The plan would have required the Watch to yield back a large part of the Gift, but his uncle Benjen believed the Lord Commander could be won around, so long as the new lordlings paid taxes to Castle Black rather than Winterfell. "It is a dream for spring, though," Lord Eddard had said. "Even the promise of land will not lure men north with a winter coming on."
If winter had come and gone more quickly and spring had followed in its turn, I might have been chosen to hold one of these towers in my father's name. Lord Eddard was dead, however, his brother Benjen lost; the shield they dreamt together would never be forged. "This land belongs to the Watch," Jon said.
(ASOS, Jon V)
and
Jon ignored that. "I have given you fodder for your horses, and once the stair is done I will lend you builders to restore the Nightfort. I have even agreed to allow you to settle wildlings on the Gift, which was given to the Night's Watch in perpetuity." (ADWD, Jon I) it’s included in The World of Ice and Fire
and
Though in these days it is said that Lord Ellard Stark was glad to aid the Night's Watch with the Gift, and took little convincing, the truth is otherwise. Letters from Lord Stark's brother to the Citadel, asking the maesters to provide precedents against the forced donation of property, made it plain that the Starks were not eager to do as King Jaehaerys bid. It may be that the Starks feared that, under the control of the Castle Black, the New Gift would inevitably decline—for the Night's Watch would always look northward and never give much thought to their new tenants to the south. And as it happens, that soon came to pass, and the New Gift is now said to be largely unpopulated thanks to the decline of the Watch and the rising toll taken by raiders from beyond the Wall. (The World of Ice and Fire - The North: The Lords of Winterfell)
The fact that this is an old Stark grievance and Ned and Benjen had plans to deal with it is very promising. Rectifying that old wrong, making the land safe and purposeful again, that definitely seems like it would fit really well as part of the endgame. I always liked the idea that Jon could take the throne, but instead makes it possible for Bran to be king to right the aftermath of the conquest (if we assume independence for Dorne as well, not just the North?), so if the followup to that is Jon getting to live out an abandoned dream…that’s beautiful! And it makes sense that Jon would be the candidate who can best keep peace between FF (those who settle South of the Wall, any who don’t) and the Northerners. So, it certainly is an idea that we can look at the books and argue there is evidence Martin is heading there.
And I do believe that D&D were so determined people wouldn’t guess the ending that they could have chosen not to do the necessary set up and then sent Jon to the Wall because there didn’t have anything else to do. I’ve also seen spec that their ending is premature, that Jon is sentenced but then Sansa as QitN brings Jon home. After s8, it’s impossible to think D&D cared much about Jon/his ending, so I do always have that little bit of hope that theirs is a variation of the ending, not the real ending.
I have a big gripe with the ending as it stands for Jon reasons (obviously) but also, I don’t think the Watch should continue to exist? Forcing these kids to swear away wives/children/their lives is gross. But, I don’t have anything that I can point to as proof that the Watch will be disbanded. I find that possibly wishful thinking on my part. Although, I don’t know why we spend so much time witnessing the futility of making kids forswear family if there isn’t some change. And the one thing that does give me hope there (and this would indicate Jon’s ending is something else) is that I believe the Wall will fall, so something about how the Watch functions will change. One other thing that seems promising is the inclusion of the idea of being a shield/protector of the North in both the Watch’s vows and the Gift idea:
“the shield that guards the realms of men” which makes the quotes about the Gift very very interesting: “as a shield against wildlings” and “the shield they dreamt together would never be forged” (AGOT, Jon VI; ASOS, Jon V)
If the Others are completely gone, the main problem in the North would be reconciling the two cultures, finding a way for the FF to live without being a threat to or threatened by the Northern lords. Jon could be the means of progressing Ned and Benjen’s plan into the future/using his sympathy and understanding of the FF he’s developed through the series while continuing to shoulder this role he picked up in AGOT.
And yet, because of things Martin has said in general about the tone he wants for his ending, because of what he’s said about his favorite type of romances (I am a firm believer in Jonsa, just not the HEA kind anymore), and lines in Jon chapters that in hindsight are pretty upsetting, I accept that he always intended Jon to go back to the Wall or a self-imposed exile. I’m not happy about that, but there are some things I just can’t believe were D&D’s idea. It’s a little too tidy when s7-8 had so so so much sloppiness.
I was rereading AGOT, and I simply can’t accept that Martin wasn’t writing AGOT, Jon VIII without thinking of ways to further test Jon. I don’t think he wrote that convo with Aemon solely about Jon attempting to leave the Wall in AGOT, or about Jon trying to leave in ADWD. It feels like the grounding for Jon’s final test, the same way we’re clued into Bran’s role in defeating the others in AGOT, the same way we’re hammered over the head with Arya’s noncomfority and strong sense of justice, the same way Sansa is the voice against violence and the representation of innocents who suffer as a result...Jon’s fate seems clearly fixed in the author’s mind with the love/son/family issue mentioned before he joins the Watch, brought up again here, and so damn likely in the end. And, the sacrifice that it would entail makes the ending meaningful. If Jon were to betray and/or kill Dany onyl to escape any consequences, I think it wouldn’t tell the story Martin wanted to tell with him.
The ending of this Jaime chapter seems very significant when it is followed by the Jon chapter in which he is sent off to assassinate Mance:
Defeated in the Whispering Wood by the Young Wolf Robb Stark during the War of the Five Kings. Held captive at Riverrun and ransomed for a promise unfulfilled. Captured again by the Brave Companions, and maimed at the word of Vargo Hoat their captain, losing his sword hand to the blade of Zollo the Fat. Returned safely to King's Landing by Brienne, the Maid of Tarth.
When he was done, more than three-quarters of his page still remained to be filled between the gold lion on the crimson shield on top and the blank white shield at the bottom. Ser Gerold Hightower had begun his history, and Ser Barristan Selmy had continued it, but the rest Jaime Lannister would need to write for himself. He could write whatever he chose, henceforth.
Whatever he chose . . . (ASOS, Jaime IX)
The crimson and white is very Jon, there’s always a lot about those two colors and him, blood on snow, and there’s this very interesting quote in the following Jon chapter:
"Aye," Slynt said. "A blind man with a chain about his neck, who does he think he is?"
Aemon Targaryen, Jon thought, a king's son and a king's brother and a king who might have been. But he said nothing. (ASOS, Jon X)
I always thought there was a lot to mine in the Jon and Jaime parallels although I haven’t read all that much about them. I wrote this little thing after s8 though because again, some of this stuff folds together a little too well to be a coincidence. But anyway, this idea of determining who you want to be, accepting the consequences of those actions and what people may then think of you, choosing your fate...this will be a huge thing for Jon going forward, and the line “he said nothing” really gives me pause. I find the idea that Jon might choose to be Snow rather than Stark or Targ very compelling. The idea of him remaining Snow only has meaning if he makes that choice, creates himself, chooses his own path, so to me, having the chance at a Stark crown and then a Targ one, refusing both, that’s rewarding. It’s my preferred reading. And, it actually brings me back to your mention of Jon’s sword. It isn’t the Stark sword, and the Mormont bear was replaced with Ghost, so it fits well with Jon’s being his own person, shaped by Ned’s ideals but influenced by other mentor figures, given a weapon that Ned didn’t offer him the same way Jon’s additional mentors teach him things/encourage him to function in ways Ned wouldn’t have…lots of fun things to think about there. Also, Bran has a peculiar line that could eventually be a parallel line to Jon’s, wishing for Summer, rather than the Stark sigil, on his chest,
“He would sooner have had Summer than a silver wolf on his breast” (ACOK, Bran III)
By that I mean, Jon having Longclaw in the end of GoT and Bran a raven sigil isn’t necessarily out of nowhere. The idea that neither is an extension of House Stark but rather, the outgrowth of good things into far bigger, and also, far more personal things...well...that seems very likely although, not really what we would want if the endgame is Jon married to Sansa in Winterfell.
This ASOS chapter stresses me too. The combination of R+L=J, Jon having to assassinate someone, and all of it preceded by this--
A grim day. Jon Snow wrapped gloved hands around the bars and held tight as the wind hammered at the cage once more. When he looked straight down past his feet, the ground was lost in shadow, as if he were being lowered into some bottomless pit. Well, death is a bottomless pit of sorts, he reflected, and when this day's work is done my name will be shadowed forever. Bastard children were born from lust and lies, men said; their nature was wanton and treacherous. Once Jon had meant to prove them wrong, to show his lord father that he could be as good and true a son as Robb. I made a botch of that. Robb had become a hero king; if Jon was remembered at all, it would be as a turncloak, an oathbreaker, and a murderer. He was glad that Lord Eddard was not alive to see his shame. (ASOS, Jon X)
Well, it looks like a bleak future for our boy. I’ve written alternative interpretations of this quote, and I suppose someone could argue that it is about Jon attempting to leave the Wall in ADWD, but the Aemon reference means this is also about what comes later imo. I’m dragged back to AGOT by this quote, where Jon leaves the Wall and thinks of Aemon and honor and betrayal there as well.
When Jon did not appear to fetch the Old Bear's breakfast from the kitchen, they'd look in his cell and find Longclaw on the bed. It had been hard to abandon it, but Jon was not so lost to honor as to take it with him. Even Jorah Mormont had not done that, when he fled in disgrace. Doubtless Lord Mormont would find someone more worthy of the blade. Jon felt bad when he thought of the old man. He knew his desertion would be salt in the still-raw wound of his son's disgrace. That seemed a poor way to repay him for his trust, but it couldn't be helped. No matter what he did, Jon felt as though he were betraying someone. Even now, he did not know if he was doing the honorable thing. The southron had it easier. They had their septons to talk to, someone to tell them the gods' will and help sort out right from wrong. But the Starks worshiped the old gods, the nameless gods, and if the heart trees heard, they did not speak. (AGOT, Jon IX)
and
But he had not left the Wall for that; he had left because he was after all his father's son, and Robb's brother. The gift of a sword, even a sword as fine as Longclaw, did not make him a Mormont. Nor was he Aemon Targaryen. Three times the old man had chosen, and three times he had chosen honor, but that was him. Even now, Jon could not decide whether the maester had stayed because he was weak and craven, or because he was strong and true. Yet he understood what the old man had meant, about the pain of choosing; he understood that all too well. Tyrion Lannister had claimed that most men would rather deny a hard truth than face it, but Jon was done with denials. He was who he was; Jon Snow, bastard and oathbreaker, motherless, friendless, and damned. For the rest of his life—however long that might be—he would be condemned to be an outsider, the silent man standing in the shadows who dares not speak his true name. Wherever he might go throughout the Seven Kingdoms, he would need to live a lie, lest every man's hand be raised against him. But it made no matter, so long as he lived long enough to take his place by his brother's side and help avenge his father.
(it is very similar to the ASOS quote)
and then we have this weirdness
He could not see the smile. Hard as he tried, he could not see it. He found himself thinking of the deserter his father had beheaded the day they'd found the direwolves. "You said the words," Lord Eddard had told him. "You took a vow, before your brothers, before the old gods and the new." Desmond and Fat Tom had dragged the man to the stump. Bran's eyes had been wide as saucers, and Jon had to remind him to keep his pony in hand. He remembered the look on Father's face when Theon Greyjoy brought forth Ice, the spray of blood on the snow, the way Theon had kicked the head when it came rolling at his feet. He wondered what Lord Eddard might have done if the deserter had been his brother Benjen instead of that ragged stranger. Would it have been any different? It must, surely, surely … and Robb would welcome him, for a certainty. He had to, or else … It did not bear thinking about. Pain throbbed, deep in his fingers, as he clutched the reins. Jon put his heels into his horse and broke into a gallop, racing down the kingsroad, as if to outrun his doubts. Jon was not afraid of death, but he did not want to die like that, trussed and bound and beheaded like a common brigand. If he must perish, let it be with a sword in his hand, fighting his father's killers. He was no true Stark, had never been one … but he could die like one. Let them say that Eddard Stark had fathered four sons, not three. (AGOT, Jon IX)
And here is where I give up! As always happens when I start looking at passages to help me come to a conclusion, I get less clarity the more I think about them! Not only do we have Jon wrestling with who he wants to be/who he is, what he can/can’t accept of how others view him, betrayal/honor/love/duty, we also have a lot of Stark and Targ stuff in these chapter, as expected. But what the heck is that last thing supposed to mean?
We can interpret all of these in a couple ways, say it’s about one instance and one instance alone, but to me the ASOS chapter means Jon will voluntarily kill Dany. Except, it makes no sense that he would be punished for killing her as she will have burned KL by that point, but that Ned and Benjen thing did make me wonder if, at least at one time, Bran was meant to judge Jon for deserting? Ned was very judgy about Jaime, but there could be no finding fault with Jon if he kills Dany after she’s burned KL to hell. All the same, it’s an odd quote, and it’s interesting that Ned and Benjen are also referenced in that dream for spring idea, so perhaps the idea shifted?
I enjoyed reading Martin talk about his process the other day and I do try to bear in mind he may start down one path towards his goal only to have to give up and forge a different path to reach it:
The judgment idea felt like something he planned to revisit, at least when writing AGOT, because I think Bran has to be contrasted with other leaders so that we have a sense of his justice, not sure how that could possibly work here though. Martin did have Arya kill a deserter which felt very ominous to me. As in, if Starks are killing people for deserting, it wouldn’t be just to show favoritism to a family member and let them go unpunished, but she isn’t Bran so maybe we can ignore that. Obviously no Starks will be killing each other, and the idea of Jon going back to the Wall is dumb as heck, but imo, there’s something Martin wanted to say there once, maybe not now?
Basically, there’s enough stuff in the books that worries me that I can’t convince myself D&D made up his ending entirely on their own. I’m not sure of the path Martin will take to get there, but to me, the biggest indicator that we’re moving somewhere that Martin always intended with Jon --and that it’s the Wall or exile, *cries*-- is the way he builds on Jon’s Aemon connection and what he chooses to include as he does:
It made him feel odd. "My lord, why have you told me this, about Maester Aemon?"
"Must I have a reason?" Mormont shifted in his seat, frowning. "Your brother Robb has been crowned King in the North. You and Aemon have that in common. A king for a brother."
"And this too," said Jon. "A vow." (ACOK, Jon I)
and then
"Aye," Slynt said. "A blind man with a chain about his neck, who does he think he is?"
Aemon Targaryen, Jon thought, a king's son and a king's brother and a king who might have been. But he said nothing. (ASOS, Jon X)
and then this
"His Grace is not an easy man. Few are, who wear a crown. Many good men have been bad kings, Maester Aemon used to say, and some bad men have been good kings."
"He would know." Aemon Targaryen had seen nine kings upon the Iron Throne. He had been a king's son, a king's brother, a king's uncle. "I looked at that book Maester Aemon left me. The Jade Compendium. The pages that told of Azor Ahai. Lightbringer was his sword. Tempered with his wife's blood if Votar can be believed. Thereafter Lightbringer was never cold to the touch, but warm as Nissa Nissa had been warm. In battle the blade burned fiery hot. Once Azor Ahai fought a monster. When he thrust the sword through the belly of the beast, its blood began to boil. Smoke and steam poured from its mouth, its eyes melted and dribbled down its cheeks, and its body burst into flame."
Clydas blinked. "A sword that makes its own heat …" (ADWD, Jon III)
It isn’t conclusive, but the Aemon quotes keep getting those additional “of a king” tidbits that may very well be true for Jon too in the future as they feel increasingly pointed. The fact that Jon’s all important honor/duty vs love conversation with Aemon kicks off all of this and seems to predict a lot about his entire arc and possibly his ending with his attempts to/breaking vows for the Starks, and then there’s the assassination/stabbity stab stuff in such close proximity to those references...well, I don’t think it’s nothing.
I suppose that means, yes, the show omitted essential steps in how Jon ends up where he is, likely, Jon refusing the crown which paves the way for King Bran, and if it is a fate of his own choosing, and in that choice he protects the Starks, his ending would be that of a hero (to us), but a subversion of the generic fantasy in which the secret prince becomes king or the hero is rewarded. If Jon’s actions give him a HEA, it undercuts what it cost him to make those choices, and I’m no longer thinking that’s something Martin will do. He seems pretty into making things painful.
Jon might be in the Watch, possibly even a Lord Commander (again) who makes good on all the promise of the Watch which would be an answer to that mess. He might oversee the settling of the FF in the Gift and see it used the way it was meant to be and keep the peace so maybe that’s how the Gift fits in to such an ending. Or, if his end is in real exile, that Jorah is at the Wall and Jon must stay beyond the Wall for some time, maybe D&D weren’t that wrong?
Another thing D&D (may have) cut that would make Jon’s ending a little more filled out is the fulfillment of this quote:
Benjen Stark stood up. "More's the pity." He put a hand on Jon's shoulder. "Come back to me after you've fathered a few bastards of your own, and we'll see how you feel."
Jon trembled. "I will never father a bastard," he said carefully. "Never!" He spat it out like venom. (AGOT, Jon I)
I’m not sure that the child would be a bastard as I’m a fan of the secret wedding idea, but it’s possible other characters think the child is because Jon can’t be with Sansa due to new hatred for the Targaryens post Dany funtimes. Perhaps, instead of getting that, instead of being King to Sansa’s Queen, it may be Sansa who rules and then her son after her, in which case, Jon would be “uncle” to a king, to callback to that last Aemon quote, and round out all the dad/uncle confusion that happens throughout the story, and circle all the way back to this moment.
@sepedarodatiga wrote about foreshadowing in the show for a Jonsa baby (link) and @istumpysk wrote about book foreshadowing (link), and I think that could be the missing sweet in Jon’s bitter. The idea of Jon not being able to publicly be his son’s father, it’s crappy, but I think it’s very possible that was Martin’s intention when writing AGOT because in the all significant Jon and Aemon convo, we have this:
My grandfather named me for Prince Aemon the Dragonknight, who was his uncle, or his father, depending on which tale you believe. Aemon, he called me …" (AGOT, Jon VIII)
We all seem to be on board with the Jon is Aemon idea, most Jonsas recognize Aemon the Dragonknight as being big Jonsa foreshadowing, so the whole “is it the father or the uncle?” idea...I suppose it could just be about parentage reveal and Ned/dad/uncle, but considering how the son stuff crops up with Jon, I think it’s likely talking about his future, not just his past.
I know this is really rambly and nothing conclusive, but part of my inability to decide on anything specific is that each path prohibits or secures certain endings. If Jon accepts legitimization as a Stark, even if the truth is later revealed to some or becomes public knowledge, I don’t think he could be with Sansa. I just think going from being Jon Snow to Jon Stark to a Targaryen is too much to make the people accept in such a short period of time. So, if he becomes KitN, it’s possible he feels that it is necessary to self-exile because he never should have been king (regardless of any assurance by Sansa to the contrary) and secures her reign by leaving. If on the other hand he refuses it all, defends Sansa as the true Stark heir, well, then when the truth is revealed, we have far less of a mess and it works with my preferred version in which he rejects both Stark and Targ crowns. The problem with that is that I do think Jon bending the knee makes sense as a statement about choosing peace (where Robb didn’t), so he’d need to be king for that. Which brings me to another beloved theory in which Jon becomes KitN, the truth is revealed, so he marries Sansa to keep the North unified, and if that’s the case, if he then bends the knee to another Targaryen, the North may be pissed. If he then somehow ends up entangled in the mess in KL, I’m not sure that he can emerge without being perceived (by non Starks) as yet another Targ in the worst sense. That could be a reason he leaves. He wouldn’t allow his chance at happiness prevent Bran and Sansa from peaceful reigns.
Of course, the one thing we know for sure came from Martin is King Bran, and if Jon or Northern armies are involved or present during the burning of KL (rather than, say coming to the city too late to stop Dany, too late to save Aegon?), then I don’t see how Bran is the peace candidate. Like, how will he distance himself from Jon so effectively that people will voluntarily choose him to rule after that? So, perhaps Jon will arrive too late, deal with the mess, and then get to go home and live in peace. Hope springs eternal no matter how hard I try to prevent it. :)
Anyway, if I had to pick one path, I’d say, it’s a variation of the Aemon stuff. That feels right to me, and then a similar ending at the Watch or exile for some, as yet to be determined, very believable reason. 😑
So, the answer to your question is yes? They stripped his ending of all agency and meaning, I think Jon will have experienced good things that make his sacrifice worth it to him, but also, no, I don’t think it will be that different.
And I really think the meaningful stuff would have transpired pre exile, so I’m not sure that the show will retroactively be able to make it make sense, and I fear, would just continue the course s7-8 set for show Jon. :(
