#longitudinalwaveme

[gorogues]

From their perspective, what would be the worst thing that could happen to any of the Rogues?

Len: Losing control over his own destiny, in whatever form that might take (inescapable prison, mind control, a severe injury, or whatever). He'll roll with or absorb a lot of shit, but the ability to make his own choices and live life as he chooses is not negotiable.

Lisa: Being forced (or somehow obliged) to remain in contact with her father, especially if he was given any power over her.

James: Losing the edge which gives him an advantage over others -- a loss of physical skills or mental sharpness, being unable to read others, or even the loss of his tech. He needs it to even the playing field in a world of metas and technologically armed people, and without it he can't compete.

Axel: The loss of his freedom and independence, in whatever form that might take. He's gone to great trouble to get away from his family, school, and basically all the life trappings which keep kids (and even adults) constrained, and to lose it would be unbearable for him.

Digger: Being forced to return to Australia, especially Korumburra, which would be humiliating and the last place he wants to be. Too many bad memories and certainly not enough excitement.

Roscoe: Losing his powers, especially his enhanced intelligence. For him, that'd mean becoming mediocre and not good enough again, and it'd be completely devastating.

Mick: Losing control over his inhibitions/urges. In a way he'd love just letting go and not feeling any remorse, but in his current semi-stable state he knows it'd be horrible and that it's a very real possibility.

Hartley: There are two options I can't decide between, but I think it'd be either losing the acceptance he's got from the people he cares about/values (nowadays the Flash Family and the LGBT community), or completely losing his hearing with no way to recover it. He's dealt with both issues before, but I don't think he ever wants to go back.

Mark: The loss of his powers, whether metahuman or tech-based. He's very invested in the "I'm a god" routine and never wants to give it up. Similar to Roscoe, but not quite the same; Roscoe was pushed to succeed and found failure demoralizing, while Mark was surrounded by low expectations but just doesn't want to go back.

Sam: I don't think we know enough about him to say. My guess is it'd be the loss of his tech which gives him near-infinite possibilities, but there could be something worse for him for all I know.

Evan: Probably similar to Sam, but for somewhat different reasons: losing that tech means he wouldn't be able to lose himself in his role as Mirror Master, and his past would catch up to him. He talks about running away to Wonderland, and that's partly the drugs and partly being a scary Cosmic Horror(tm) so he doesn't have to be Evan McCulloch (or Evan Erikson), the screw-up who killed his parents and a whole bunch of other people.

Roy: Losing his vision entirely, which would take art appreciation and many of the joys of painting from him.

Ultimately many of the Rogues have pretty similar fears: loss of independence and control, and for many of them that'd be derived from losing what makes them a Rogue. But most people in real life fear the same things, it's just that for us it doesn't stem from super powers or fantastical tech.

[gorogues]

longitudinalwaveme replied to your text post: This reminds me of that one scene from I think Flash vol. 1 #350 where Sam Scudder Mirror Master is all "Good golly, Captain Boomerang--you win the prize on the first try!" That's like the opposite of hardcore swearing, but it's really funny because of that. It's like Cary Bates didn't even try to make him sound tough, and it's great.

Yeah, older comics were fun like that. In Secret Society of Supervillains, Len is clearly beginning to say "Who the hell is that?", but Manhunter tells him to watch his language 😂

I specifically decided to leave 'hell' out of the swear tallies because Hell is entirely real in the DCU and many of the Rogues have been there (even if just to visit) :> So sometimes it can be hard to distinguish between the mild profanity and talking about the actual place.

I've got a special love for villains saying stuff like "nifty" and "neat", which the Rogues used to do.

[gorogues]

What do each of the Rogues think of laser tag? Somewhat similarly, what do they think of escape rooms?

Len: He's got an analytical mind and is very good at escape rooms, but I don't think it's the way he'd choose to spend his day off. But laser tag is very much up his alley because it's fun and lets him be a kid again in a socially-approved activity. He didn't get many opportunities like this during his actual childhood, so he'd be all in for it now.

Lisa: I don't think she really has much interest in escape rooms, though she'd be willing to indulge the others when they want to go. She'd love laser tag and be utterly ruthless, with no mercy for even her loved ones.

Mick: He's always down for good clean fun of any kind, but I don't think he'd be particularly good at escape rooms. No matter though, because he'd be a good-natured participant and fun to be around…and he'd have a blast at laser tag. He doesn't exactly let everyone else win, but he plays fair and tries not to be a jerk about it.

Digger: He doesn't do escape rooms, and nobody wants him around them after he was an irritating pain in the ass during one or two teambuilding exercises. But he'd also love laser tag and be damn good at it (good aim), and also be ruthless because he always wants to win.

Mark: He uses laser tag as a passive-aggressive way to blow off steam against people he's pissed at, so he enjoys it very much. Escape rooms seem like they'd be a challenge he'd be into, but he gets a bit stressed in confined spaces (he can't see the weather outside and feels unsafe when he can't really let loose with the wand) so he actually isn't a fan.

James: He loves both, and is very good at both. The other Rogues sometimes underestimate his keen mind, but he's a welcome member on the team.

Axel: Loves laser tag now and forever, but his attention span isn't great for escape rooms. He'd get frustrated and act out pretty quickly.

Roscoe: He appreciates escape rooms to challenge himself and to show off how smart he is. He'd enjoy laser tag very much, but only lets himself have fun like a normal person in front of Lisa and strangers…though he's willing to participate in it with the other Rogues so he can sneak around and snipe the other guys to amuse himself.

Hartley: Like Mick, I think he generally enjoys wholesome activities in which nobody gets hurt, but he'd probably prefer a cerebral escape room over laser tag. He's got a long history (including his early life before the Rogues) of being the guy who gets picked on and targeted first, and I think he'd be cognizant of and sensitive to that.

Sam: He's in his element in both activities: he's clever and likes puzzles and showing off, and he happens to be a bona fide fan of lasers and light-based technology. PLUS he's great at strategy and isn't above cheating with his tech during a match…that makes him a great teammate but a complete pain in the ass as an opponent.

Evan: He'll shoot everyone in laser tag, including the people on his own team, and he'll have a blast doing it (he's a former hitman, but nobody gets hurt this way). I think he'd find escape rooms pointless, frustrating, and stupid and probably leave via mirror the instant he gets bored.

Roy: He's got mild interest in both and they're okay for passing the time now and then, but they're low on his priority list compared to his ~art~.

[gorogues]

In terms of physical attractiveness, how would you rate the Rogues on a scale of 1 to 10 (in your opinion)?

Whew, this one's going to be highly subjective and possibly a huge can of worms 😅 This is pre-Flashpoint to avoid skewing the results with pretty New 52 people, and it's all meant in good fun.

1957-1999 Len: 8/10, honestly pretty handsome. 2000-2011 Len: 5/10 unless you're really into old men (which is fine, I'm not judging).

Lisa: 10/10 babe, though sometimes she was drawn poorly in the Bronze Age.

Handsome Digger (not counting Stjepan Šejić's Digger, who's post-Flashpoint): 8.5/10. He's rugged and I appreciate that. Homely Digger: 4/10, he always reminds me of Rex Murphy.

Owen: 9/10, though truthfully I don't like the way his co-creator Rags Morales drew him.

Mark: 9/10, he would have gotten a higher score but was definitely showing his age by the Johns era. Sorry Mark, it happens to all of us eventually.

Mick: 7.5/10, as he gets points for being a sweetie pie.

Roscoe: 9/10, and he also might have gotten a higher score but he's gone through some pretty rough phases in his life.

Hartley: 9/10, because gingers are fire…except Alvin.

James: 10/10, maybe he should have been an actor rather than a stuntman.

Axel: Too young to be included.

Sam: 8/10. He does get points for stylishness, moreso than the other Rogues in his day.

Boy band Evan: 9/10, he could have had a far more lucrative career as a pop star (autotuned if necessary). Homely Evan: 4/10, he looks eerily like Digger at his worst.

Roy: He's a solid 8 because of the sensitive artist thing.

Albert: 8/10, but he loses points once he stopped cutting his nails.

Alvin: -5, he's a gremlin (possibly literally).

[gorogues]

Happy (late) birthday! Sorry I didn't say that sooner. Also: If you could have any mentioned-but-not-shown Geoff Johns Rogues plot idea made into a comic, which one would it be?

Thank you very much, and no worries! :D

I think my number #1 choice would be that power struggle between Roscoe and Len mentioned the other day (I think about it a lot lol, and the story could probably fill an entire miniseries). My second choice would be the relationship between Digger and Meloni and the return of Digger and Owen to this era, and the third would likely be the mysterious incident involving the Snarts' dad during the Golden Snowball era.

On the one hand, if any of these stories were actually published I'd be sorry I could no longer imagine the chain of events for myself, but on the other I just really want to know how it happened 😅

[gorogues]

How far do you think each of the Rogues got, academically? We know Hartley at least went to college (even if he may not have graduated), but did any of the others? How many of them do you think graduated high school? (Albert, with his three PhDs, obviously did, but what about the others?)

This is all pre-Flashpoint.

We know Axel dropped out of high school, so he probably hasn't graduated.

Owen dropped out of high school at 15, saying "high school is no place for kids".

It seems unlikely Evan graduated high school because he ran away from the orphanage at 16 and started working odd jobs in Glasgow. Soon he drifted away from work and spent his time "just drinkin' and fightin'" before becoming a hitman, so he probably didn't do any further studying.

Lashawn was a grad student in medical school, but she dropped out to care for her father, and her arrest and legal troubles may have put an end to her academic career.

Roscoe's Black Lantern zombie (which wasn't him, but had his memories) said to Mark "You were the smart one, Mardon. Educated. Like me." It's impossible to know whether he was being truthful or just trying to make a connection with Mark before killing him, and "educated" for either of them could always mean self-educated. We know that Roscoe taught himself with a stack of books on tops, motion, "science and principles", etc when he decided to become a supervillain, so it's possible he was entirely self-taught.

In the presidential storyline, Roscoe said "the streets of Brooklyn didn't educate Roscoe Dillon well enough to maneuver the presidency" but that scene sets my teeth on edge because a) post-death Roscoe doesn't admit to weaknesses or failings like that, and b) there's never been anything else to suggest he's from Brooklyn. (He also denigrates his own tops by calling them a "child's toy" and that's why I think Waid didn't have a grasp on him at all. Anyway.)

I don't believe there are any other references to Mark's education, though Libra said to Grodd that Mark is smarter than the other Rogues, so he certainly had a reputation.

Len's history isn't clear. He left home and went into crime in his late teens, so he may or may not have graduated high school by then. He's definitely self-taught about thermal motion, absolute zero, cryogenics, etc, because we also saw him doing research with a stack of books and stolen blueprints. In Secret Origins, Gambi made a crack about Len's high school science teachers being surprised at his skills but being unsurprised that he screwed up making his cyclotron gun…so I'm not completely sure what that indicates, but it's a tidbit about his education and skill. And Len himself specifically said he wasn't good at the science of his tech.

There's been no information about Lisa's education.

There's been no information about Sam's education. He was heavily research-oriented and an inventor, so he could have been formally educated or could be another bright self-taught Rogue.

Digger also isn't clear. He was a troublemaker as a kid and left home sometime in his teens when he punched his dad; I doubt he'd finished high school, but it's possible he had. He probably didn't do any more schooling after leaving home, though, because he started working for Wiggins and then went into crime.

I don't think anything's been said about James' education either. As a circus kid, he probably wasn't in formal schooling much if ever, but he likely studied by correspondence or did home schooling. He's another bright inventor who liked to read, so he may have been self-taught. But whether he's got a high school diploma is unknown.

Mick quit school at an unknown age and ran away from his uncle's house sometime after he killed his family. He got a job at a circus and was there for some years, and drifted into crime after he burned down the circus, so he either has no high school diploma or maybe earned a GED. In the "Three of a Kind" story, Mick's lawyer claimed his three villainous clients "are not educated men".

Hartley said "I was kicked out of every college they sent me to", so he probably didn't graduate.

Roy was in "art college" with Paul Morris, and admittedly I don't know anything about the requirements for that but presumably he at least graduated high school. It's not clear if he graduated from the college, because he mentioned leaving in disgust when Paul was made graduate of the year (despite taking Roy's ideas).

[gorogues]

Last question, I promise. What do you think each Rogue's favorite movie genre(s) are? Do any of them hate certain genres?

I'll start off with actual canon movie references the Rogues have made, and build from there.

Apparently Digger's favourite movie is It's A Wonderful Life, so that suggests he enjoys feel-good family movies -- which is unexpected, TBH, but maybe that brings him happiness after his own unhappy family life. We also know he likes James Bond movies and Connery was his favourite Bond, and he referenced The Shawshank Redemption a couple of times. He seems to like movies and he's got eclectic tastes, so I'm not sure what his favourite genre would be. He was particularly appalled by Prospero's Book, so he probably isn't into art films, but prison films may indeed be something he enjoys due to his history of long-term incarceration.

James has referenced Jaws (twice), Star Wars, Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country, and Pinocchio. He too has eclectic tastes, but it's very much pop culture. He also mentioned watching a smutty film called "Nookie On The Nile", but it seems to have been invented for the comic. He definitely watched the Star Trek movie due to the obscurity of his reference, though of course the other films are famous enough that it wouldn't be necessary, but he references TV enough too that I think he's probably watched all those films. The man is all about gags, so he's undoubtedly seen most classic comedies and plenty of not-so-classic ones, and he probably keeps a lot of movies and TV on as background noise while he works and does other things. He makes tons of pop culture references, far more than the other Rogues. The only movies he dislikes is stuff he finds boring.

We know Sam loves Westerns, and he even enjoyed LARPing as though he was in a Western. I think that's an obvious fave.

Mick named his heat gun after John Wayne, so I guess he likes Westerns too. I'm sure he enjoys fire-based disaster films like Backdraft and The Towering Inferno, but when he's stable he knows he can't indulge in them lest his urges start taking over again.

Roscoe once quoted from White Heat (the famous "Top of the world, Ma" line) so he's obviously seen it, but that's a top pun and he was seriously out of his gourd at the time, so I don't know how much he actually liked the film. Still, it was a well-regarded crime drama back in its day, so I wouldn't be surprised if most of the Rogues have seen it and probably liked it well enough. Especially the Silver Age Rogues; nowadays it's from the distant past. He's got a particular interest in taking control of governments (the world, the US, Keystone, and becoming a senator), so I'd guess he enjoys politically themed media in varying forms -- dramas, thrillers, comedies, etc. It might give him bad ideas, though :\

Hartley talked about watching The Crawling Hand and how it made him realize he was gay, so he's indulged in cheesy sci-fi horror but it's probably not a favourite genre or anything. I think he'd be into dramas and more cerebral sci-fi, and he'd probably appreciate the greater LGBT representation in modern cinema and television.

Lisa called a Rogues meeting during a showing of Prospero's Book, and she clearly knew what it was about. The other guys weren't terribly impressed (it's…an interesting take on Shakespeare's "The Tempest"), especially Digger. I think she'd hate sappy, saccharine stuff because of her harder edge and because she was practically gagging over Ringmaster's and Iris' 'relationship'. She's mostly about fast-paced action.

Evan called Neron-as-the-snake-god "Godzilla", though that's a ubiquitous enough reference that he may not have seen any of the movies. He probably has a soft spot for movies about Scotland, even though he knows stuff like Braveheart and Rob Roy are inaccurate crap ("never underestimate the sentimentality of a Scotsman" and all that), and of course Local Hero and Trainspotting are faves.

Len mentioned Hellraiser when scolding Owen during Blackest Night. He might like horror, but I think he probably prefers action movies with a single badass protagonist who overcomes great odds (Die Hard, Mad Max, Escape From New York, etc)…for obvious reasons. And I suspect he watches porn considering his history of romantic/sexual frustration and difficulties with relationships. Many of the other Rogues probably do too, but him likely more than most.

The following Rogues haven't made any canon movie references as far as I can recall.

Mark is all about disaster movies: the more stuff gets destroyed, the better. He also likes political thrillers.

Axel likes cool action/adventure movies like The Fast and the Furious, but you'll never be able to get him to watch romance or drama films without the regular use of whoopie cushions and fart machines.

Roy watches artsy and avant-garde stuff (ironically he'd probably be into Prospero's Book), but his shameful secret is that he also likes low-brow comedies for cheap laughs. He keeps that quiet because he's got an image to maintain. We never heard whether he actually ended up appearing in the Flash biopic movie he kept trying to ruin, but if he did then he's undoubtedly incredibly proud of that.

[gorogues]

Probably more interesting second question: which Rogue do you think writers most often misunderstand/write poorly? Conversely, which one has been written well the most consistently?

It is an interesting question, and it's one that's challenging to answer because of my own biases. I personally think Roscoe is terribly misunderstood (and not in a "he didn't do anything wrong" way because he did tons of things wrong, but in a "they don't really get what drives him and don't care to figure it out" so he behaves randomly way) and is thus handled poorly by most writers, but it's also very possible I'm reading stuff into canon that other writers don't see or agree with. I spend more time thinking about him than most people 😅

Mick is written extremely inconsistently, so he's probably one of the most overtly mischaracterized Rogues. He regularly flips between a good man with psychological problems and an angry or sullen psycho who burns things for shits and giggles, and one of the more frustrating parts of Countdown (in a long list) is when he complained about James and Hartley flip flopping between good guys and bad 🙄

Owen was only a Rogue for a very short time, but the most frustrating thing about him to me is that he too is incredibly inconsistent. Leaving aside the post-Flashpoint weirdness for a second (because that's an even bigger kettle of fish), he regularly flipped between smart and competent to a total idiot, and sometimes he tried to live up to his dad's legacy and sometimes he wanted to prove he was nothing like him. It seems like the writers didn't have a cohesive take on his character, and just did whatever they felt like with him. That was his undoing in the end, I think, and probably why he got killed off; DC had wanted a fresh start with a new Captain Boomerang, but he wasn't being handled well so they went back to the established Boomerang.

The blurring of Axel and James into one vague Trickster is another troublesome one, and also pretty frustrating. It shouldn't be hard to tell them apart and make them distinct, and yet a lot of writers struggle with it.

For most consistently, I want to say Len since 2000, but with the huge caveat that even he gets messed up, and it's obvious when he does because he appears most often. Even so, it's clear that Johns' revamp of him has stood out prominently in DC's eyes, so I think the vast majority of writers are trying to write him that way even if they sometimes fail. And the way they usually fail is depicting his intelligence and cunning, ie, he suddenly becomes a thoughtless dope.

Mark is also generally consistent, but he's never been given a lot of attention so it might be easy to keep a handle him. Same with Marco (the weirdness in his current arc is probably due to outside influence). My biggest quibble with Mark has also been his intelligence and competence levels, which tend to shift with the writer.

This is one of those subjects which is very much a Your Mileage May Vary, so you could ask ten people about it and probably get ten very different answers. But this is the way I see it.