I was reading something comparing Ikey-poo to Eph and how they'd be besties...
But like, their journeys are complete opposites?
Maybe an Eph from before the game starts, or before the wake-up slap after Orson's death, but after that?
Ike got peerage at the end of FE9 but abandoned it because he didn't want status or fame. FE10's part 2 is heavily influenced by his absence and how he is not able to support Elincia, but he returns to save the day at the very end of this arc that saw Elincia "man up" in her role as a Queen.
Ultimately, at the end of FE10, Ike abandons his friends and family to leave Tellius, never to return.
FE8!Ephraim wanted to live as a mercenary and dump his duties on Eirika. He loves battle, and values strength, so he wanted to become stronger.
And this?
This is the reason why he loses everything.
Ephraim leaves his Father and sister to "fight" against Grado instead of protecting Renais, as a result, Fado dies and if not for Seth, Eirika would have been Valter'd.
Ephraim abandoned his people, and they do not cheer for the return of their rightful King, no, they cheer for Orson's death. Not for him.
At the end of his route, Ephraim has to learn the hard way how his inability to understand and support his friend led him to hate him, and even to borrow Satan's power to "beat" him, just once, dooming the entire continent in the process. Ephraim cannot save Lyon, because Lyon is already gone, but also, because Lyon both loved and hated him.
End of FE8!Ephraim is a guy who wants to honor his fallen friend's dream to help his people, but also a man who deeply regrets not having been able to save his Father and feeling like he disappointed him : it's no surprise why FEH - when they were still thinking regarding brave alts - gave him Fado's armor. He will now become the kind of King his father would have approved of, someone who thinks of the people and who protects them. He won't fail Renais a second time.
"Yeah but is it what he truly wants? What about his dream to fight and be a mercenary?"
This was what he wanted, and he acknowledges he likes to fight, but now also wants to protect his people and restore his country.
Aka, Eph grew.
So a post growth Eph going to meet a post FE9, or worse, a post FE10!Ike would maybe spar and talk about it a bit, but to become the guy's BFF ? No, Ephraim learnt he has a duty to his people and what happens when he ditches it, he won't do it ever again.
If Ike can leave his sister and friends to sail to unknown areas never to return, Ephraim cannot do that. He left his sister and father, and nearly lost both. He abandoned his friend, and lost him to Satan. He left his country, and found it destroyed and ran by the shell of a man who once had been a great knight.
One of the worst comparisons, imo, is their respective duels.
Canon tells us Ike defeated BK in FE9 and assuming we're following the completed scenes playthrough with sekrit heron brainwashing magic, Ike fought him many times in FE9 (Port Toha, etc etc) to avenge his father, and should have died if BK wasn't toying with him.
Then in Castle Nados, Ike goes 1 vs 1 to avenge his dad... or so he thought, because his child sister followed him. But he somehow wins because of the plot and Mist was unharmed, so all is well that ends well.
We have no character who grill him or slap or punch him because of his stupid and foolish vandetta, how he has people under his orders now and how his death would have meant the end of the Crimean Liberation Army and the possible death of everyone (lbr Tibarn was there, they would have managed if the worst came to pass, Caineghis would have folded Ashnard with a paw) following him, not counting how his stubborness nearly had Mist killed.
man i wonder why the plot destroys dimitri when he more or less wants to do the same thing - and would have had an easier time than ike vs bk bcs has an unit he's stupidly broken - why is vengeance bad in FE16 but ok in FE9? does it has something to do with nightgowns or is it because Dimitri has to look after his people but Ike is offered the luxury of not being held to the same standards even for all the "GM are like family" pretty speeches?
Eph leaves Renais when the war starts to kill Vigarde to end the war - he doesn't even manage to get to the guy and loses his country, father and nearly his sister in the process.
Second duel against Lyon in Castle Grado to avenge Fado - he can't do a thing, Lyon rewarps away.
Then third duel in the volcano against Fomortiis - to avenge Lyon - and he's wrecked, Fomortiis destroys one of the only gizmos able to seal him.
-> Ephraim loses all of his duels and faces consequences : his father is killed, he cannot save his friend, and he's the reason why there's only one Sacred Stone left.
So, while it may only be a matter of different writing teams or what they wanted to push, the fact is, for people who more or less faced the same trials, Ephraim was punished and learnt lessons Ike didn't or doesn't want to follow.
As a result, I believe they could only have a superficial friendship - training or being sparring partners - but anything else would be, imo, a huge disservice on Ephraim's character.
FE9-FE10 Ike would represent, to him, the kind of person he wanted to be before Grado attacked, and yet, FE8 made him realise this kind of person nearly lost everyone and everything he held dear, so he had to change.
Fallen and Christmas Lyon's relationship with Fomortiis makes a lot more sense after i saw someone argue that those are versions of Lyon from after he died in Sacred Stones, meaning he now knows Fomortiis' weaknesses and can blackmail him into working with him by threatening to tell everyone else about them too
It doesn't really hurt Lyon's base game characterization if his Fallen and Christmas versions are basically just Sacred Stones AUs where he gets ressurected with his mind still intact after dying and, as such, knows Formootis' weaknesses much better than he did the first time and can blackmail him with said knowledge imo
meaning he now knows Fomortiis' weaknesses and can blackmail him into working with him by threatening to tell everyone else about them too
Anon,
FE8 makes it clear that everyone knows, from Natasha to Joshua, from L'Arachel to Rennac, that the Demon King fears the Sacred Stones who can seal him.
Hell, it's basically that continent's lore told in the opening roll.
What makes Fomortiis the Big Bad is his inablity to be killed, and his power to seduce, I mean, manipulate people around him, even if he's stuck in a rock.
Fomortiis' main power is to corrupt, not to throw giant fists around : as long as he is around, even as a rock, he can still wreck havoc and doom the world.
This is what happened with Lyon, and how he got a new host - despite everyone around telling him to not to mess with the shiny rock, because Fomortiis tempted and lured him.
"Seal him in a rock!" is as secret as the knowledge that you can prevent slugs from eating your salads if you throw salt at them in FE8, but FEH tried too hard to rewrite Lyon in a character he was not in FE8 (for marketing purposes? To make him look cooler than his original incarnation?) thus, it's basically a retcon.
"I know how to seal you!"
"Just like Duessel, and yet, you're still the moron who fell for my lies!"
Is it stated that Fallen!Lyon's blackmail material is just that Fomortiis can be sealed inside the Sacred Stones? I thought it was some other, unspecified, weakness about either his demon form or his possession powers that could be used to defeat him and which he only learned about thanks to his time being fully possessed by him
If it's actually just the thing everyone in Magvel knows for a fact already, then yeah, that's a dumb retcon lol
The only weakness that Fomortiis has which was specified in FE8 are the Sacred Stones :
That's why he's starting a way to destroy them all.
So unless FEH hinted that something - not existing in FE8 itself! - exists and is Fomortiis' kryptonite, I'd say he's talking about the Sacred Stones.
Granted, that line was dumb to begin with, it's easier a shallow "look I know that water is wet!" retcon, or some nonsensical "but akshually there is another way to defeat him, that was never mentionned before in the source material, that will never be mentionned in this gacha spin-off but will be hinted at to make this character look like he can finally have the upper hand over the one who ruined his life!" shit.
Edit :
My Bad I forgot this :
L’Arachel:
“Our oldest legends tell us just this. Only one person has ever been able to shake off the Demon King’s domination. Rausten’s founder, Saint Latona the sure-hearted, shattered his fetters. If one possesses a strength of will beyond that of normal men. Only then can one throw off the shackles of the Demon King. But you saw it yourself, Eirika, with your own two eyes. Your friend Lyon’s body has already been claimed by the Demon King. Once it’s gone that far, there’s nothing that can be done. When the Demon King takes over someone, he devours his spirit, his very soul. Even if his hold on Lyon’s body could be released, that body would have no soul. There is no power in Rausten, not even the Sacred Stone,that can perform so great a miracle as to restore a shattered soul.”
If you have a shonen protagonist's willpower, you can shake off Fomortiis.
Sadly, that wasn't the case with Lyon - by the time FE8 happens, his spirit is already gone (let it be in the Ephraim or the Eirika route!). So unless FEH!Lyon's knowledge is to be strong-willed as Latona once was, before Fomortiis starts eating your soul, there's no secret method to get rid of the dude or secret weakness of his.
Which is what makes him a truly fearsome antagonist - Fomortiis can't be killed, but can still kill by being trapped in a shiny rock.
It's peak illustration of "madness lurking in the hearts of men" can bring ruin, because this thing will forever exist to prey on people, even sealed in his stupid rock. Let it be in 2 years, 800 or 1782 years, Fomortiis will most likely still find a gullible or despairing dude willing to offer him his soul/body in exchange for "power".
You're not wrong that Lyon was greedy, but I do think it's a disservice to ignore WHY he took risks and made bad choices. He was trying to save Grado from destruction on two fronts, the death of his father and the earthquake. He did that in a stupid way and ignored warnings from desperation and insecurity but I wouldn't call him evil. He was just a bit pathetic and he's still pathetic in his uwu happy FEH alts
FE8 is all about "good intentions" but wrong means.
Eph wants to be a strong King for Renais, so he storms to Grado to fight the Empire, which is a sensible thing to do? And yet, he isn't here when his Father is killed, and his sister nearly Valter'd if Seth didn't intervene. Seth is the one who reminds him that Renais needs a ruler who looks after the country and not someone who is fighting away...
(and guess who goes to Grado and leaves the country in his ending? Hopefully, Eirika is here to look after the Kingdom!)
Carlyle (i know) was a minor boss who was completely head over heels for Ismaire, waiting again and again even as Ismaire's hubby died... everything he did was for love! Even if it meant destroying the castle (but he swears it wasn't planned!) and everything Ismaire loved (the country, hell, Carlyle can even kill Joshua!).
I want to protect Grado/I want to become strong enough to rule Grado/I want to befriend the twins are "normal" goals... that still shouldn't be achieved by asking for Satan's "help".
Shonen-wise, we would have some "you could have told us and relied on your friends instead of Satan!", but in a more "realistic" setting, like with the Earthquake that even Fomortiis couldn't prevent, what was Lyon's solution? How could he prevent this and save everyone?
Is "saving Grado from the earthquake" a reason or a justification for destroying Renais, starting a continental war and waking up monsters and other eldritch abominations, to the point of bringing Satan back - effectively ruining Grado, but in another way?
It's a bit fatalist to say "Lyon should have accepted everything and/or tried to call for help", but I'm not willing to cut him any slack regarding using Fomortiis' powers and thinking he can master them - especially as he is the studious one and the crown prince of Grado, aka the nation that was tasked with keeping the "Fire Emblem" because it knows better than anyone else what dwells in that rock.
@zeroabyss replied to your post “@zeroabyss replied to your post “You're not wrong...”:
I definitely say a father telling him he has to do it all on his own and that he can’t even rely on his friends or even their fellow nations, definitely pushed Lyon to take the path that he did. No one can handle something on their own, and so Lyon was tempted to use the one power their texts said had the power to avert disaster.
You can see how this issue was more than likely a flaw when Lyon talks about him to the twins. About how his father took on the burdens all on his throne and barely, if ever rested. The man shouldered everything that it likely played into his worsening health and death, and his final words being to tell Lyon he can’t rely on help from others concerning a natural disaster and that the other countries would leave any Grado refugees to die at the border to protect themselves
Vigarde pushing all of the country's hopes and aspirations on his unprepared son was his mistake, sure, but...
Between Vigarde telling him to deal with Grado's fate alone because relying on Renais is impossible, and Vigarde/Father Mc Gregor/The World telling him not to free Satan to use his powers because Satan nearly destroyed the continent centuries ago, if Lyon had to pick one command to disobey, I suppose he could have picked the "I'm still going to ask for Renais' help" instead of "I'm going to use Fomortiis' powers".
Vigarde might have steered him in the wrong direction - Lyon already playing with Fomortiis' powers (to save a child! and then to predict tempests and save more lives!) was his own thing.
It's SS in a nutshell, good intentions alone cannot justify the worst means used to satisfy/reach them.
Lyon lamented and complained about his perceived weakness, feeling he would never compare to the twins nor would be the kind of ruler Grado will need to save itself... so he doomed Magvel, wanting to be the strong and kind person he wished to be.
I think this is the flashback where it's more or less spelled out :
Lyon:
“Mm… My research isn’t complete yet, but there’s no mistaking the power the Sacred Stones contain. And the Stone of Grado seems especially responsive to my dark magic. I suppose it’s because it contains both sacred and demonic properties. Regardless, if I can just press my studies a little harder… Well, I think I might be able to use it to heal my father’s illness. If that works, there’s no telling how many other people I can help as well.”
Eirika:
“Do you think this is wise? The power contained within the stones is beyond our understanding… My father tells me that the stones possess a power not to be trifled with.”
Lyon:
“Uh-huh… Father MacGregor is also against it. That’s why they still won’t give me direct access to the Stone of Grado. For the time being, I’ve made do with the radiant energies surrounding it. They’re nothing compared to the raw power of the stone itself, but… If I can show Father MacGregor some real progress, perhaps one day…”
(...)
Lyon:
“Thanks, both of you. Hearing those words from you means a lot to me. Actually–and this hasn’t been made public yet–but… I’ve already saved someone using the knowledge I’ve gleaned so far.”
Ephraim:
“You have?”
Lyon:
“Uh-huh… A while back, a fire ravaged Serafew, and a little girl got trapped in the flames. Her burns were terrible: not even healing staves were able to cure her injuries. But just a sliver of the stone’s power restored her life and healed her wounds. We saved that girl’s life, Ephraim! Oh, if you could have seen the tears of joy in her mother’s eyes!
Fado, Ismaire and I'm pretty sure Vigarde himself know it's not wise to triffle/use the SS powers... Father MacGregor is also against it, as the resident "holy man" around - and his words are important, since the Church of Magvel was founded after Latona, who fell herself (but managed to fend him off for some reason ???) to Fomortiis' possession! - but Lyon's reply is... Mockery? Or disinterest?
Father Mac Gregor wanted to prevent him from continuing on this path, and forbade him access to the Stone! But Lyon didn't care and still used what was... available, when he also knows the power he is using has demonic properties, and a will of its own!
Lyon's reasoning isn't "Father Mac Gregor is right maybe I should try to consider that I cannot "use" Fomortiis" but something like "maybe he doesn't believe me when I tell him this power can be used for good! I just have to continue working on it!" completely missing the point...
Or is he?
Sure, Lyon saved the Serafew child... but this hadn't made been public as of yet (2 years before the start of the game), like was this not enough to convince Father Mac Gregor that he could use those powers to do right and good things? Or Lyon himself realised he... "saved" someone who was already dead?
This flashback is even more interesting because we have this, the twins' failure :
Ephraim:
“Using the Sacred Stones to study magic…”
Lyon:
“Ephraim, Eirika, what do you two think? Using the divine power of the Sacred Stones in this way… You don’t think it’s a very good idea, do you?”
Ephraim:
“…It’s just that I know nothing at all of magic. I would that there were some way I could help you, but I simply can’t. But, Lyon, I’ve seen how hard you’ve worked to help others. I know how much you want the power to make others happy. I know these things, and because I know you, I trust your intentions.”
Lyon:
“Ephraim…”
Ephraim:
“If you hope to use the power of the Sacred Stone for good, I trust you can. I’m behind you all the way.”
Eirika:
“I agree with Ephraim entirely. You spend every night in the library, studying cures for your father’s illness. The power of the Sacred Stones is too powerful to be used for personal gain. But you, Lyon… I think you’ll be fine. You’re the kindest person I know.”
It's a double failure on their part, firstly because they give empty reassurances to Lyon claiming to know him, how he wants to use this power because he has the right intentions, or how it's totally not used for his personal gains...
When part of Lyon's desire for power was to help people, sure, but also, to be worth someone in Ephraim and Eirika's eyes!
Secondly...
No, the power of the SS (especially the one housing Fomortiis!) cannot and should not be used, even for "good" or with "good intentions". There are lines that shouldn't be crossed, even if it means not being able to save people/not reach your dreams.
The Epilogue in Eirika's route is very explicit :
Eirika:
“That would be nice… But first we must seal this away… This stone banished the Demon King. With such power… Do you suppose we could bring back Father and Lyon… That everyone who died in this dreadful war could be–“
Ephraim:
“Eirika.”
Eirika:
“I know, I know. Such things would be– I cannot wish for such things. No matter how it hurts, or rather because it hurts, we must learn to accept sorrow. We must take it into our hearts and tame our grief…”
Ephraim:
“Eirika… Tell me, Sister… If Lyon were here with us, what do you think he would want?”
Eirika:
“What he would want?”
Ephraim:
“Yes. You see, I think I know. It was the reason for his studies. It’s why he wanted to know about the Sacred Stones–or rather the Fire Emblem. Let’s take Lyon’s dreams and fulfill them in his stead. We can do that, can’t we? Without relying on any mystic power?”
Eirika:
“You’re right, Brother, we can. Let us fulfill his dreams. As Lyon wanted, as we all want… So we may live in peace and joy.”
Sure this epilogue sort of sucks because Eirika has to be explained things by Eph out of anyone (when we know how he takes the news in his route!), but the point still stands, tempted with the power to achieve the impossible... the heroes refuse and accept to move forward and fulfill their dreams (make the impossible possible?) without relying on mystic powers, especially if it comes from Fomortiis himself!
Eirika:
“That’s enough, Innes. There’s no need to provoke him. General Glen, we’ve told you what we know to be true, what we’ve seen firsthand. We don’t want to fight you… But if you push us, we will drive you back to Grado with your tail between your legs.”
I've already said it, but it's a damn shame that Eirika was flanderised to oblivion since FE13 and her bridal alt, idk if it's a localisation thing, but this?
Eirika is telling Glen, a general of high reputation like Duessel himself!, that she doesn't want to fight, but if he pushes them, she will destroy him so hard that he will be ashamed.
Eph wins on the "savage quips" counter because he is Eph and has been flanderised as such (not that the game bothers to correct this flanderisation even after Lyon's fall : Eph is still supposed to be the Badass (tm) even at the end of his route!) but damn if Eirika isn't as savage as him, it's just that she seeks peaceful resolution of eventual issues first.
Remember when Seth asks her to run away and flee when Jehanna is besieged? Of course Eirika refuses, she is a FE Lord. The situation is dire, she will stay, thinks of her brother but says this :
“No. I will not retreat. If I give up now… My brother would not forgive me. I’m the princess of Renais. I will fight, either to victory or to death. Brother, I…”
Imo, Eirika would likely apologise to Ephraim for “dying” here since they made a promise to reunite and see each other alive again, and Seth said they’re basically going to die, but she’s going to fight “either to victory or to death”.
Of course on the Ephraim route Eirika’s bravery is a bit more subdued since we don’t see her that much, and she keeps on remembering how Seth and Ephraim used to protect her a lot back then, and yet Ephraim has this line about her when he hears Jehanna’s castle fell :
We’ll make it. Rest easy on that. Eirika is my sister. That one will never lay down her blade. And I am Eirika’s brother. There is no way I’ll let my sister die!
bar the usual “I’m not letting my sister die”, Ephraim knows she’s never going to lay down her blade, she’s going to fight.
Ephraim is also sure she will fight “long enough” - against the main crux of the Grado Army, aka severely outnumbered !! - for him to make the trip from Grado to Jehanna.
Honestly coming from this, the brother who knows his sister can fight and relies on her, to Mist being a potted plant in FE Tellius felt like a downgrade.
The plot still has Eirika being rescued by her brother twice during the events of the game because it’s a FE plot, but watsonian wise, Eirika is as much of a fighter as Ephraim is, and the one who sings her praises is Ephraim himself.
