@zeroabyss replied to your post “@zeroabyss replied to your post “You're not wrong...”:
I definitely say a father telling him he has to do it all on his own and that he can’t even rely on his friends or even their fellow nations, definitely pushed Lyon to take the path that he did. No one can handle something on their own, and so Lyon was tempted to use the one power their texts said had the power to avert disaster.
You can see how this issue was more than likely a flaw when Lyon talks about him to the twins. About how his father took on the burdens all on his throne and barely, if ever rested. The man shouldered everything that it likely played into his worsening health and death, and his final words being to tell Lyon he can’t rely on help from others concerning a natural disaster and that the other countries would leave any Grado refugees to die at the border to protect themselves
Vigarde pushing all of the country's hopes and aspirations on his unprepared son was his mistake, sure, but...
Between Vigarde telling him to deal with Grado's fate alone because relying on Renais is impossible, and Vigarde/Father Mc Gregor/The World telling him not to free Satan to use his powers because Satan nearly destroyed the continent centuries ago, if Lyon had to pick one command to disobey, I suppose he could have picked the "I'm still going to ask for Renais' help" instead of "I'm going to use Fomortiis' powers".
Vigarde might have steered him in the wrong direction - Lyon already playing with Fomortiis' powers (to save a child! and then to predict tempests and save more lives!) was his own thing.
It's SS in a nutshell, good intentions alone cannot justify the worst means used to satisfy/reach them.
Lyon lamented and complained about his perceived weakness, feeling he would never compare to the twins nor would be the kind of ruler Grado will need to save itself... so he doomed Magvel, wanting to be the strong and kind person he wished to be.
I think this is the flashback where it's more or less spelled out :
Lyon:
“Mm… My research isn’t complete yet, but there’s no mistaking the power the Sacred Stones contain. And the Stone of Grado seems especially responsive to my dark magic. I suppose it’s because it contains both sacred and demonic properties. Regardless, if I can just press my studies a little harder… Well, I think I might be able to use it to heal my father’s illness. If that works, there’s no telling how many other people I can help as well.”
Eirika:
“Do you think this is wise? The power contained within the stones is beyond our understanding… My father tells me that the stones possess a power not to be trifled with.”
Lyon:
“Uh-huh… Father MacGregor is also against it. That’s why they still won’t give me direct access to the Stone of Grado. For the time being, I’ve made do with the radiant energies surrounding it. They’re nothing compared to the raw power of the stone itself, but… If I can show Father MacGregor some real progress, perhaps one day…”
(...)
Lyon:
“Thanks, both of you. Hearing those words from you means a lot to me. Actually–and this hasn’t been made public yet–but… I’ve already saved someone using the knowledge I’ve gleaned so far.”
Ephraim:
“You have?”
Lyon:
“Uh-huh… A while back, a fire ravaged Serafew, and a little girl got trapped in the flames. Her burns were terrible: not even healing staves were able to cure her injuries. But just a sliver of the stone’s power restored her life and healed her wounds. We saved that girl’s life, Ephraim! Oh, if you could have seen the tears of joy in her mother’s eyes!
Fado, Ismaire and I'm pretty sure Vigarde himself know it's not wise to triffle/use the SS powers... Father MacGregor is also against it, as the resident "holy man" around - and his words are important, since the Church of Magvel was founded after Latona, who fell herself (but managed to fend him off for some reason ???) to Fomortiis' possession! - but Lyon's reply is... Mockery? Or disinterest?
Father Mac Gregor wanted to prevent him from continuing on this path, and forbade him access to the Stone! But Lyon didn't care and still used what was... available, when he also knows the power he is using has demonic properties, and a will of its own!
Lyon's reasoning isn't "Father Mac Gregor is right maybe I should try to consider that I cannot "use" Fomortiis" but something like "maybe he doesn't believe me when I tell him this power can be used for good! I just have to continue working on it!" completely missing the point...
Or is he?
Sure, Lyon saved the Serafew child... but this hadn't made been public as of yet (2 years before the start of the game), like was this not enough to convince Father Mac Gregor that he could use those powers to do right and good things? Or Lyon himself realised he... "saved" someone who was already dead?
This flashback is even more interesting because we have this, the twins' failure :
Ephraim:
“Using the Sacred Stones to study magic…”
Lyon:
“Ephraim, Eirika, what do you two think? Using the divine power of the Sacred Stones in this way… You don’t think it’s a very good idea, do you?”
Ephraim:
“…It’s just that I know nothing at all of magic. I would that there were some way I could help you, but I simply can’t. But, Lyon, I’ve seen how hard you’ve worked to help others. I know how much you want the power to make others happy. I know these things, and because I know you, I trust your intentions.”
Lyon:
“Ephraim…”
Ephraim:
“If you hope to use the power of the Sacred Stone for good, I trust you can. I’m behind you all the way.”
Eirika:
“I agree with Ephraim entirely. You spend every night in the library, studying cures for your father’s illness. The power of the Sacred Stones is too powerful to be used for personal gain. But you, Lyon… I think you’ll be fine. You’re the kindest person I know.”
It's a double failure on their part, firstly because they give empty reassurances to Lyon claiming to know him, how he wants to use this power because he has the right intentions, or how it's totally not used for his personal gains...
When part of Lyon's desire for power was to help people, sure, but also, to be worth someone in Ephraim and Eirika's eyes!
Secondly...
No, the power of the SS (especially the one housing Fomortiis!) cannot and should not be used, even for "good" or with "good intentions". There are lines that shouldn't be crossed, even if it means not being able to save people/not reach your dreams.
The Epilogue in Eirika's route is very explicit :
Eirika:
“That would be nice… But first we must seal this away… This stone banished the Demon King. With such power… Do you suppose we could bring back Father and Lyon… That everyone who died in this dreadful war could be–“
Ephraim:
“Eirika.”
Eirika:
“I know, I know. Such things would be– I cannot wish for such things. No matter how it hurts, or rather because it hurts, we must learn to accept sorrow. We must take it into our hearts and tame our grief…”
Ephraim:
“Eirika… Tell me, Sister… If Lyon were here with us, what do you think he would want?”
Eirika:
“What he would want?”
Ephraim:
“Yes. You see, I think I know. It was the reason for his studies. It’s why he wanted to know about the Sacred Stones–or rather the Fire Emblem. Let’s take Lyon’s dreams and fulfill them in his stead. We can do that, can’t we? Without relying on any mystic power?”
Eirika:
“You’re right, Brother, we can. Let us fulfill his dreams. As Lyon wanted, as we all want… So we may live in peace and joy.”
Sure this epilogue sort of sucks because Eirika has to be explained things by Eph out of anyone (when we know how he takes the news in his route!), but the point still stands, tempted with the power to achieve the impossible... the heroes refuse and accept to move forward and fulfill their dreams (make the impossible possible?) without relying on mystic powers, especially if it comes from Fomortiis himself!
Love your Magvel posts, they’re neat. Anyway I was thinking about the moment in Ephraim’s route where Lyon encounters Morva. He’s like “I’m going to save everyone! I have it all under control!” and Morva’s like “Somebody who truly wanted salvation for his people would not justify war and murder to achieve it. You have been corrupted you fool”. Since, I have thought about why Lyon did everything even though the disaster was a few years away. Was it because Vigarde died and he panicked? Idk.
(Same fe8 anon) Though one thing that confuses me about Lyon, in particular his FB, is that Fomortiis says that he’ll have everything he’s been promised after his resurrection. Except in the game itself Lyon has to die for his soul to return to his original body. So how exactly would that work? Would he just resurrect him and have his mindless body beat up Ephraim, conquer the continent, get wealthy, have the unconditional love of the twins, etc. Fomortiis is quite confusing imo.
Oh, thank you !
About those lines...
(under the cut because it's long, and I wanted to comment them!)
Lyon:
“I had a vision… I saw my life traveling two roads. Down one, the Demon King conquers both my body and soul. Down the other, I master the Demon King, and with that power…urg… With that power, I avert disaster. I gave the people a better future… I resist the Demon King’s attempts to wrest away my will… I saw this, and I made my decision. I walk the second road.”
Morva:
“You fool… The Demon King has blinded you to his true wish. How can you not see it? He’s had you since the moment you first held the Dark Stone. He has been hiding within you, luring you deeper into the shadows of his heart. He commands you and remakes you to suit his dark design.”
Lyon was played by Fomortiis who effectively preyed on his despair - born from Vigarde's death and the need to be the one to save Grado - and on his jealousy/envy at Ephraim, Lyon feels he can be strong, like Ephraim, and can "master" Fomortiis.
It is, in way, deeply disturbing how Lyon thinks he needs Fomortiis to gain strength... but thinks he is already strong enough to fight against his influence, and strong enough to master it!
Fomortiis is a shortcut to gain strength (Awakening!Lyon mentionned it!) - and Lyon wants to be strong, for a very selfless reason, but also, for a very selfish one!
Morva:
“Think back! Remember! Are you truly the man you used to be? Would you justify war and murder to bring about peace and justice? Remember who you were, and tell me if you are still yourself!”
Lyon:
“…… All of this matters not. I know the Demon King has claimed me. It is not important… Not if I can save the world. My own soul is irrelevant.”
Faced with Morva's well-pointed questions... Lyon admits he was wrong.
Fomortiis ate him, he is merely a plaything right now, and yet, his ambition still burns, he will save the world.
Lyon's own soul is irrelevant, just like the "war and murder" he brought to "save the world" and bring peace. War and murder matters not. Those baby eating Baels? Nope. There's still traces of the previous arrogant brat who thought he could master Fomortiis, his goal is more important than anything else...
Even more important than this world he is trying to save!
Morva:
“…It is as I feared. You will not give up this madness. I am Morva, the dragonkin who guards the entrance to these woods. I do not have the ability to save you. All I can do is destroy the demon that coils around your heart. To prevent the further damnation of your soul… I can only grant you eternal sleep.”
Lyon:
“I cannot sleep. I have not yet– There is no taboo I will not break, no sacrifice. I will not make… I…”
Lyon will not break, there is no sacrifice he won't make! The "no taboo" I won't make rings hard, especially in this chapter, since Morva, the person who tried to save him, will be desacrated and turned in a dracozombie to kill... his very own daughter!
Lyon doesn't care anymore - is he really gone, or is "Lyon" still here, but only 1% of Lyon remains, and that 1% still thinks his goal is more important than anything. But what are his goals?
To save the people of Grado? Grado was already invaded by Ephraim. Monsters are roaming in Grado, so it cannot be Grado's people.
Not anymore.
But it used to be !
Vigarde:
“You would ask Renais to rescue us from… a natural disaster? They would not help us… Grado’s borders would overflow with starving refugees by the thousands. Renais would close her borders to us. It’s only natural… Renais has a duty to protect herself.”
Vigarde:
“Lyon… You are the one… who must… save our people. You must take my place… The citizens of Grado… are counting on…you…”
Best Dad giving Best advice (tm)
Lyon:
“You’ve seen the scrolls. You know there is a way to stop the coming disaster. If those scrolls are correct, the rites they describe can save all of Grado. But it will require a staggering amount of dark energy–and a sacrifice as well. The human body cannot contain the powers these rites demand… And yet… Of the five Sacred Stones, Grado’s alone possesses a greater power… It is the very prison housing the soul of the ancient Demon King. If we could harness its power, well… If we can do that, we can avert disaster and save countless lives.”
Knoll:
“But you forget…”
Lyon:
“I forget nothing! I know I am too weak. Because of me, all of Grado will be destroyed. I need… I need the Sacred Stone. I must become stronger. I will become stronger.”
Vigarde was an ass and asked Lyon to save Grado alone, so now Lyon will summon Lucifer to become strong enough to save Grado - Lyon knows what will happen to him though, he cuts Knoll.
Did he saw the two pathes he previously mentionned here - tempted with unfathomable power (to save his people?) he accepts to work with Fomortiis... dooming everyone in the process.
Lyon became stronger, yet, but it didn't save anyone, especially not people from Grado.
Lyon:
“Everything is in readiness. The Stones have been destroyed. The Demon King’s power swells. The Black Temple possesses all the demonic power I will need. The rites can begin. All that remains is for me to sacrifice my life… The disaster will be averted. My people will be saved…”
We ultimately know what will be attained when Lyon's mortal body is sacrificed ! Grado isn't saved nor the earthquake averted, nope. Fomortiis's body returns instead!
Everything Lyon did, everything he believed he was doing for "Grado's sake" was... actually resurrecting Fomortiis who cannot give three shits about Grado!
Heh heh…heh heh heh… Well done, Lyon. The sacrifice of your flesh and the sum of your efforts… They were all for naught. Grado’s disaster cannot be averted. My resurrection is at hand. All this time, you imagined yourself in possession of your own free will, but it was I who planted the seed from which your ambitions grew. My deceit made you my puppet, and oh, how you danced at the end of my strings. You could never have been saved. It’s a shame, isn’t it, Lyon? And now I… I am reborn.
This ?
This is Grade-A planning/puppetering idk from Fomortiis himself. He lied to Lyon from the beginning, to the end. Prince Lyon had been nothing but a puppet - Fomortiis's "It was I who planted the seed from which your ambitions grew"?
We all know Lyon was ambitious, but always cursed his lack of power, after all, he wanted to be strong enough to best Ephraim and to "win" Eirika.
This line from Fomortiis though? To me, it cements an earlier hypothesis (even re-reading the script makes me realise i was wrong on other stuff) - the day Lyon used the "aura" around the Dark Stone or traces of its power to predict the future and even resurrect the Serafew girl? It was planned by Fomortiis - luring Lyon with exceptionnal power, knowing he will return for more, and ultimately use the Dark Stone.
And this is also why I feel like the FB with Fallen!Lyon and normal!Lyon is completely... well, let's say I'm not fond of it, but not at all.
All my power was stripped from me
in defeat. In that sense, I am nothing
compared to you.
What I do possess, however, is
knowledge. I know you as well
as I know my own hands.
Most of all, I know in precise detail
how exactly you can be destroyed.
Surprise, normal!Lyon, everyone knows how to destroy Fomortiis. Seal him in a Sacred Stone, here, finished. Or kill his host, before the resurrection is complete.
But there are no sacred stones in Askr, and apparently, people can't die. So what leverage Lyon has over Fomortiis? None, or none other units from SS don't already know.
So, unless you'd like me to reveal the
secret of your demise to all who care
to listen... You will do exactly as I say.
For now, I leave you in the capable
hands of the Order of Heroes,
to whom you'll swear your loyalty.
I trust we understand each other...
fragile king.
Base!Eirika already knows it, just like Base!Ephraim!
This was a complete and utter nonsense of a FB, and even if it only happened during the S convo, it managed to taint everything with the stench of mediocrity, because some devs wanted to make "Ephraim's friend" not the pathetic Prince from FE8.
That being said, even if I call Lyon pathetic, it's in the pathos sense, what happens to him is a tragedy ! Lyon was both very selfless, and yet had one tiny speck of selfishness, that completly corrupted him. All kinds of events led to his downfall, Vigarde being Best Dad (tm), Ephraim not ever bothering to try to talk and understand him, Eirika unknowingly reinforcing his inferiority complex, etc, etc.
Lyon's tragedy is how he was doomed from the beginning, he cannot and could never win against Fomortiis - no one, on their own, can (save for Latona, for some reason).
Lyon cannot get a "gotcha!!" moment against Fomortiis.
As for "everything you wanted" from Fomortiis...
Oh, fragile prince, don't fret. I will
keep my end of our bargain,
I assure you.
You will have everything I promised
you. Untold wealth. Dominion over
Magvel. Even the undying love of...
Fomortiis told him he would beat Ephraim and gain Eirika, he would save Grado and maybe plant daisies. Maybe he didn't tell him everything in detail, or thinks Lyon would be pleased if only his flesh and physical body beats Ephraim and marries Eirika, worse, maybe Fomortiis promised to resurrect his soul after he returned to his own body?
We know it's bullshit, and Normal!Lyon knows it too! But FE8!Lyon knew Fomortiis was an asshole, and still believed his words because his goals were more important back then, so maybe Normal!Lyon will fall in the same trap?
Lyon trying to trick Priam into becoming one of Fomortiis' servants, only to give up once he realizes Priam has too much experience and knows that any offer of easy power always comes with a terrible cost, deciding to go look for someone more guillible>>>Lyon being a perfect guy with no flaws and whose main trait is simping for the Renais twins; never thought i'd have to praise the Awakening Spotpass nostalgia-bait chapters of all things, but Heroes certainly has a way of setting bars unbelievably low.
TBH,
For some characters, the FE13 spotpass/DLC stuff has better characterisation than FEH!
Or...
FEH wants to sell alts, when FE13 wanted to sell "nostalgia" (that's totes why i bought all those packs back then lol), so FE13 could be close to the source material than FEH who wants you to feel bad for Lyon and his tragedy, thus buy alts where he's happy or lives his dream of being a "friend" to the twins.
IDK if FE13 Lyon was Lyon or already Fomortiis or whatever, but it's indeed more interesting to have him be the one who wants power at all costs - even if he had nice intentions (save the world, become the twins's friend) - and destroys everything he once hold dear (the twins, Grado, the world).
As my favourite FEH character says :
Lyon:
“Thank you, Eirika. You were always…so kind. The Demon King will claim my flesh as a vessel for his resurrection. Before that can happen…I want you to kill me. I’m sorry, Eirika. I’m already-“
Evil Lyon:
“Oh, please…Are you done turning your failings into some sad epic of personal tragedy… It’s time we started then. I have a ritual to complete…and some nuisances to kill.”
As long as they can make money, Heroes will continue to uwufy characters, regardless of canon (see Reinhardt).
But I stand with Fomortiis here, Canon!Lyon's failings led to his resurrection, it's not an epic tragedy, it's, at its core, the story of someone who wanted to rely on "cheap" power to gain everything he desired, and who was arrogant enough to believe he could count on and master said "cheap" power.
