#marius asks

[pynkhues]

I wanted to ask what you mean by “Marius grooms Lestat”? If I remember correctly Lestat is in his 30s or 40s when he meets Marius, so to me it’s more that Marius misleads him if anything. If had to guess, Marius’ darker side will be only hinted at in s3 and expanded upon later

Also, do you think it’s possible we’ll get modern day Marius?

(X)

While children and young people are more susceptible to grooming, adults - particularly vulnerable adults, or adults in vulnerable situations - can absolutely be groomed, anon. There’s no age limit on it, no matter how much we may hope the years and life experiences may put the risk of this sort of thing to bed.

Even in the book, I’d say that’s there - Lestat’s understanding of Marius is from a picture drawn out by Armand, who was obviously groomed by Marius explicitly, and he seeks him out. Marius only comes for Lestat though when he’s at his most vulnerable - after Nicki and his brothers’ deaths, after Gabrielle has left him, when he’s half burnt and starving in the long sleep, and Marius feeds him and he takes him to a place where he knows no one but Marius, and he fundamentally shapes Lestat’s understanding of the vampiric world in a way Lestat has no way to question, and then forces him to keep it all a secret.

It’s non-sexual grooming (although there is very much an eroticised element to that drinking scene in that Lestat explicitly is turned on during it, so I could see the show making that A Lot), but it does read as grooming to me.

I think it’ll play even more that way in the show too given Marius will be likely pulling him out of a much longer sleep, and Lestat will be even more vulnerable in a new century and his isolation will I’d wager be more deeply underlined by him not knowing if anyone he once knew is even still alive. It’s going to be interesting to see how it’s all depicted.

And yeah, I think there’s a good chance we’ll see Marius in the contemporary timeline, but probably not until close to the end.

[pynkhues]

So curious what this is. Is it Marius digging him up? Is it after New Orleans? Something else? I've seen people speculate that it's his turning but I don't think he'd be covered in dirt at that point.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/G28GO0pWkAEaqjU?format=jpg&name=medium

I agree with your first thought, anon! The blood being dripped on his face definitely makes me think it's Marius waking him up after the long sleep, especially given it kind of parallels how Armand woke Louis up / gave him the strength to get out of the mortuary box at the theatre.

[pynkhues]

I do think the QOTD arc could have them find a common ground again in a way that I don't think the TVL arc could at all outside of mayyyyybe (maybe) some of the stuff with Marius.

What stuff with Marius do you think? I know it is a popular headcanon with Armand fans that Louis will comfort and help Armand when Marius shows up again, and that Louis has done so in the past during their companionship, but I don’t get the impression Louis cares all that much about that part of Armand’s history? I agree with you that Louis may look down on that sort of vulnerability even though I love I mean LOVE Louis

(x)

I love Louis too, anon, as I hope people know at this point, and - - yeah. I think that particular type of vulnerability from men - even men he cares about, and again, I do think he cared about Armand is something that Louis has a lot of baggage around.

In terms of Marius, I personally don't see Louis as comforting and helping Armand through much at all really (and I want to add that I don't think doing so is actually Louis' responsibility at all), but I do think Lestat's own relationship with Marius is probably going to throw a spanner in the works of Louis being able to divorce himself from it.

Other people might have talked about this, but I do think it's an interesting departure from the books to have Louis first really learn about Marius through Armand, and for Louis to have really clocked him as a groomer and effectively a pimp even just through Armand's romanticised account, something that makes a lot of sense in the context of Louis himself having been the latter in the show.

I've been wondering what that means for the show, particularly if they keep Marius as a figure Lestat romanticises too, which - again - makes sense in the context in which Lestat meets him (and honestly, Lestat's character generally). We don't know how the show's going to handle their relationship, but there actually are a lot of directions that they could take that particular dynamic, especially given Marius finds him starving and naked in the long sleep after Nicki and his brothers' deaths, and has Lestat drink from him (to save him! And bring him back!) in a scene that's heavily eroticised (blood shoots down his loins!) but also immediately makes Lestat think of Magnus. That's not even getting into the fact that you could pretty easily argue that Marius grooms Lestat too.

We don't know how they're going to depict Marius and Lestat's relationship of course, but regardless, he's one of two characters still alive that Lestat and Armand have shared history with that Louis will meet, even if he doesn't know it yet. Marius does feel different from Gabrielle too, because Louis has had close to a century to think about him. He understands this fundamental part of Armand's history in a way that he can't even conceptualise Gabrielle yet, simply because he doesn't know about her, and he'll be bringing that to Lestat's story even before he meets the man.

I think that's exciting on a story level, but I also think it opens up a lot of space for Louis as a character because it's an area that's not passive for him. Lestat's version of Marius differing from Armand's version of him differing from the man Louis' built in his head over close to 80 years differing from the man he will inevitably meet is really compelling, at least to me, and I can see there being real space there for Louis not to comfort Armand, but to talk and maybe re-connect with him in a small way as he tries to make sense of Marius in the context of his hold on Lestat.

It's messy, and Armand deserves more compassion for what happened to him, but it tugs on thet narrative thread I see of victim-survivors just - - not really having all that much sympathy for each other. So yeah! I guess I think I could see Louis reconnecting a bit with Armand in the context of Marius and Lestat's relationship, and that opening a door that will be opened wider with the QOTD arc.

[pynkhues]

I do think that Marius has to be white, blond, and blue-eyed. For Armand's story, he has to look a bit like Lestat. Because I feel like the fact that Lestat looks like Marius is the reason Armand gets obsessed with him in the books. And it makes sense for that to be the reason for Armand on the show, too. At least to me, more sense than Lestat is just so special that everyone gets obsessed with him. Also, I'd be disappointed if they tone down Marius's philosophy being very Eurocentric and having a tinge of white supremacy. And I like the idea that Marius's fondness for Lestat is at least partially motivated by ego. To me, Marius is like one of those old white male academics, the ones who think civilisation peaked in Ancient Rome and that look down on every other corner of the world as less.

(x)

Mm, I do hear you, and I don't disagree overall, but I actually don't think it's super important that Lestat looks like Marius necessarily? There should be a connection, of course, but I think there's a lot of room in the show to have Lestat's immediate appeal to Armand be tied intrinsically to art, especially given Armand himself has been whitewashed in the Vecchio painting in 2.04 already which goes to your comment on the Eurocentrism/white supremacy angle already. Lestat is an ideal of beauty in Italian art from the era Armand would've been with Marius - everyone rightfully compares Lestat to Caravaggio's boys and Michelangelo's David, but you could pretty easily compare him to Antonio del Pollaiuolo's Apollo, Botticelli's Venus or Raphael or Lippi's Madonnas too - and I can see Armand seeing Lestat in a certain light because he looks like the angelic figure of the paintings Marius did or collected. In a lot of ways, that could elevate him even moreso in Armand's mind, particularly after the chapter of abuse and squalor with the Children of Darkness.

But yeah, Marius' Eurocentrism should be a factor, he is from Ancient Rome, and has lived in Italy for an extended period of time, but there's a lot of evidence that Ancient Rome was pretty diverse. There's a great article from The University of Warwick on it here, but Ancient Rome's trade routes with North Africa and the Euphrates, which passes through Iraq, Syria and Turkey, were really strong, and there's a lot of evidence to suggest there was a fair amount of migration. In that sense, I think it would be pretty easy to position him as having been born in Rome to migrant parents and having his cultural connections being still rooted entirely in Rome / Eurocentrism without him necessarily being white.

Again, I don't disagree with you though, and kind of do feel the show will probably cast a white (although maybe Meditteranean-white) actor in the role.

[pynkhues]

https://www.tumblr.com/nalyra-dreaming/771629636536991744?source=share

I haven't heard about the theory that raglan is actually marius before but it sounds possible I guess? This is a little bit long and I'm not sure I understand all points that are made here but I wonder what you think of it?

It's definitely an interesting read, anon! It'd be pretty fascinating to look back on in hindsight if the show does go down that route, especially if it ends up paralleling both Armand and Marius using the Talamasca to disguise themselves (as in, Armand posing as Rashid and Marius posing as Raglan). I don't know though. I think a lot of the points they're making can be explained by the fact that both Rashid and Raglan do work for the Talamasca (Raglan does get kicked out before Tale of the Body Thief, but we're still three books away from that, so it makes sense that he'd legitimately still be working there during the events of IWTV).

It also makes sense to me that the Talamasca as an agency would want to be involved in this second interview given they seemed to have been studying the recordings of the first. I actually tend to think the Talamasca's focus was less on Armand and Louis than it was on figuring out the details of what went down with the Paris Coven given the nature of their work as anthropologists. The research they provided to Daniel seemed to really be about that (Raglan pushed for info on the fire long before Louis and Armand introduced it by sending Daniel the clippings of Theatres des Vampires burning down, and the focus on Louis being the dangerous one I think is about them knowing, likely through Sam, that Louis was the one who killed all the members of the Coven except Sam and Armand.

The build-up of Marius could be tying him to Justin Kirk's character, but he is also a major character in both Armand and Lestat's stories, and plays a really important role in the books Rolin's adapting. It makes sense to me that they'd be foreshadowing him and giving the audience a sense of anticipation ahead of his introduction in the TVL adaptation.

Justin Kirk is a terrific actor though! I don't know if I entirely see him as Marius yet, but if he is, I'm very excited to see what he does with the role. :-)

[pynkhues]

We talk about Armand finding out lestat never told louis about Gabrielle so I see it as unbeknownst payback when lestat doesn’t tell Armand Marius is alive

Ahahah, I mean!! At least Gabrielle doesn't actually mean anything to Louis yet! It honestly does feel like a bit of a power move on Lestat's part that he hasn't told him, and I kind of wonder how much they might tie that to Lestat's feelings around Nicki's death? I think a lot of it is going to depend on how they depict Marius generally though.

[pynkhues]

I asked the question about stuff with Marius and Louis and I never doubted that you love Louis too haha. I agree with you that Armand deserves more compassion for what happened to him! I get the impression from the fandom sometimes that people think Armand is entitled to compassion from Louis and I don’t think Louis owes him compassion per say after what Armand did to him? I mean I think some people have made this image of Louis comforting Armand that they may think Louis is the worst person ever if Louis isn’t disgusted with Marius and curling protectively around Armand when they meet, so I hope the show can hold space for the badness of what Marius did to Armand and Louis’s right to dignity and anger at the same time. Thank you very much for your answer!

(X)

You’re very welcome, anon! I hadn’t seen people wanting Louis to be protective of Armand with Marius’ introduction, but I can’t say I’m particularly surprised? I doubt the show will go in that direction though - Louis’ already shown he’s pretty comfortable weaponising others’ trauma in a fight which he’s done with both Armand and Lestat now - and while Marius being alive will complicate that, I don’t think it’ll complicate it in the way people want. Like, gosh, they have one of Marius’ paintings hanging in their apartment! Louis’ not helping Armand through any of that, which again, I don’t think is Louis’ responsibility, especially after everything Armand’s done to him.

Again, Armand deserves compassion, of course he does, but he’s not entitled to it, especially not from the man who’s lynching he orchestrated, who’s daughter he killed, and who’s psychological abuse he perpetrated. That’s not to say that I think Louis will be flippant around it. I very much think that Louis’ opinion of Marius on the show will be informed by Armand’s history with him, but what that looks like is anyone’s guess right now.