I just came across your analysis of However Absurd and thought it was lovely. I'm curious, as someone who thinks John and Paul had some kind of romantic or sexual relationship, what is your take on The Lovers That Never Were? Is he using the word "lovers" to mean "partners"? I have always interpreted it to mean that Paul knows there was something there but it never happened. Every time I start to be convinced that they were together in some way I think of this song and the devastating way Paul sings it in the demo and the heartbreaking fact that he still felt it that intensely 13 years after John's death.
Oh wow thank you! The server had a lot of fun discussing that, if it's good it's because I had a little help from my friends heheh (─‿‿─) ♡
I ended up writing a massive novel in response to all this so I hope you enjoy reading it heheh. For server members, I've pulled some quotes from my previous Discord essays on this topic so you'll see some stuff that you've read.
tl;dr - I don't think "The Lovers That Never Were" contradicts the secret relationship theory at all! I think it compliments it very well actually.
In order to get into All That, I will outline how I perceive what their relationship was built on and how they reacted to it. I should note that I don't consider this definitive. It's important to remember that we all have unique interpretations of John and Paul because of our experiences and our personal POVs. There is no single answer until Paul decides to tell us what happened and/or Sean publishes John's diaries (written and audio). Until that happens, we are all forced to look at the same material and draw our own conclusions which will naturally be shaped through our personal perceptions. Some of us are older and are much closer to the original culture that John and Paul were raised in; some of us are younger and grew up in a much more LGBT+ positive environment. This naturally has an impact on how we interpret John and Paul's relationship.
I say this because I know my POV on John and Paul is a bit different from everyone else's. I'm a historian by training but part of being a historian is the understanding that you will never fully understand the events as they happened because your personal viewpoint and inherent bias is simply too strong. But that's okay because this is a part of humanity that we all share, yeah? With that understanding LET'S GO!
Paul
My view on Paul is that he's always understood that he's different from other men. I doubt he could put a name to it until very recently. Paul has synesthesia, he's bisexual, he connects to music in a savant-like way, he's neurodivergent which is why he takes criticism so hard, and all of that would still be true even if he didn't have left over emotional issues from his mother dying the way she did + his fraught relationship with his father.
Keep in mind that circumstantial evidence points to the idea that Paul orchestrated the meeting at the fête! He realized he had a mutual friend with John in Ivan (who is to say that he did not meet Ivan at a QM performance and had that mental realization there?) He went through Hot Girl Summer before and after the fête, wanting to be fucking fit so that he wasn't embarrassed to meet John! I did the same thing when I had a crush as a teenager!
So with all that in mind, imagine this: you're Paul McCartney. You met John Lennon barely a year after Mary died. You turned 15 on June 18th, 1957 and met John at the fête on July 6, 1957. At some undetermined point before this garden party you saw a beautiful boy on the bus and began riding it obsessively hoping the Teddie boy would get on it. You followed him to the chippie and stood in line behind him…allegedly because you thought "oh wow he looks so cool." Marky Mark thinks (and I agree) that you may have even followed John to at least one Quarry Man show before the fête. Is this 'normal' behavior? Or is this the unhinged behavior of a teenager with a massive crush? The kind that comes about when you see a cute boy with red hair, and red is the color you associate with happiness, and then you find out that he plays guitar just like you and you follow him around until you see one of his performances and he's so good he knocks you back and then someone says "hi Paul, I didn't know you liked music!" behind you. And you realize that it's your friend and that you can meet the boy you have a crush on through this friend. You just need to lose weight and grow your hair out first.
When did Paul first see John, anyway? Before he turned 15 I'd wager.
I submit the idea that Paul has been in love John Lennon for his entire life. It will be 67 years of love when this July 6th rolls around. John was making a name for himself, he was known around town as "that Lennon." A minor celebrity like we’ve all had in our hometowns. Paul loved music. Before the internet you would go to the town square to hear a band.
Paul did that. Saw John. Pursued him with intent. When John went to Gambier Terrace to be with Stuart, Paul made a nuisance of himself showing up at their parties and playing the proto-version of "Michelle" in front of the girls…and John.
I love you, I love you, I love you
That's all I want to say
Until I find a way
I will say the only words I know that
You'll understand
I don't think that a 15 year old Paul McCartney would explicitly label his feelings for John as 'love' or a 'crush' but I do think that's what happened. When you're a teenager, a crush can express itself in many different ways. I used to have a big crush on a girl who was a volleyball player at my junior high school…that expressed itself as intense admiration. I even told one of my friends that I thought she was 'really cool.' It wasn't until later that I realized that I had a crush on her.
But I think that Paul has always known that he's 'different' and that he wasn't like other boys while growing up. Part of his touchiness about his looks comes from being bullied but I also think that he's a lot more self aware than he pretends to be. I think he realized relatively fast how he felt about John (maybe once John picked up with Stuart and Cynthia at art college.) I think he carried that with him for years hence his anguished response to being jilted in Hamburg and how furious he was at John for running off to Spain with Brian. He didn't realize it immediately but once it sticks to you then it fucking sticks. I think that Paul has done a lot internal wrestling with being a bisexual man and what that means for him and that he has been wrestling with it for decades. I think he was fully in the grip of that wrestling as he and John's friendship began growing and Paul realized what was happening to him. He does enjoy women but I also think that he felt it was necessary to pursue them heavily as a young man to camouflage himself.
I don't think a day has gone by since 1957 where Paul has not known what he was. What exactly that means for him…is up for interpretation. That's where the gray area is. But IMO Paul has almost always known that he's sexually attracted to other men and that John woke this in him. The big question for Paul is what he should do about it.
John
There's been a lot written about John and his sexuality that I won't rehash here but truthfully I think John was in a similar place to Paul in knowing that he's always had a sexual preference for other men. John was a lot less comfortable about it though. Having unprotected sex with his girlfriends was, IMO, John trying to subconsciously engineer a situation that would "fix" him via an accidental pregnancy necessitating a marriage.
Of course that didn't do anything because it never does. John still felt chemistry with Paul when they met at the fête, with that quote about them "circling each other like cats." IMO John felt something immediately -- it's not entirely clear what -- though I don't think it "love at first sight" like with Paul. IMO their friendship, while still rooted in that chemistry, developed very naturally for John and he got to enjoy a platonic relationship with Paul before he put it all together. I say this because John saw Paul as a kid, not a peer, and that this endured for their lives in Liverpool pre-Hamburg. I struggle to imagine John or Paul deliberately inciting sexual or romantic contact during that time period aside from the group wank sessions (which were really trolling sessions from John.) Like, when Julia died, John went out and sought peers at art college like Cynthia and Stuart, other students his age. John and Paul bonded over losing their mothers and Paul has that quote about pranking people with the "oh yeah…my mum's dead thanks <3" bit but it also seems like John didn't want to be around that all the time. He lost his Uncle George and then his mother, he was starting to think that he was a death-curse on men in his family and that he brought suffering with him. He wanted to be away from that so he took a vacation from music to get a chance of scenery. Which meant putting Paul in a place of competition with Stuart and Cyn but I don't think John was thinking of that initially (though he exploited the situation later.)
Then Hamburg happens and they run wild. I have an entire meta about this that you can read here but I genuinely think John did not see Paul as a full fledged adult and potential sexual partner until they were in Hamburg in the red light district. I think that something happened there that we don't know about, that it's tied up in Stuart deciding to be with Astrid, John jilting Paul, Paul saying "fuck you I'm done" and getting a job at the coil winding factory in Liverpool after being deported, John tracking Paul down and spending weeks (probably) groveling and then giving Paul an ultimatum to come back to the Beatles. All of that screams 'I just realized I'm in love with my best friend and I'm freaking the fuck out' to me lmao.
John and Paul
Of course something else changed after that too and John and Paul ended up becoming so close that even the Liverpool squares around them noticed. I think that whatever was going in their relationship, it started here. In the place where John and Paul were equally distraught with each other, the future of the band was uncertain, and Paul wanted a sign of commitment from John so that he didn't feel like he wasted years of his life. And of course John always felt compelled to be the man Paul wanted him to be so he treated Paul to a vacation in Paris which was so life affirming for them that it stayed with them for the rest of their lives. IMO the Paris vacation was explicitly romantic for them.
I think a switch flipped in 1961 and they went from "messing around" to "there's something there." It erupted in Paris and they showed each other more understanding and care then they expected from each other. John did sexy pin up poses for Paul in a bed that they shared; John remembers how the French held each other in their arms and just kissed each other, lovingly; Paul felt that he discovered the answer and that all those big name philosophers had nothing on the self realization he came to inside himself. Paul even took a photo of John that high lighted his package! Thanks to @louiselux for pointing this one out:
The thing was all the kissing and the holding that was going on in Paris. And it was so romantic, just to be there and see them, even though I was twenty-one and sort of not romantic. But I really loved it, the way the people would just stand under a tree kissing; and they weren’t mauling at each other, they were just kissing.
— John Lennon, Playboy interview 1980
“We were like Paris existentialists. Jean-Paul Sartre had nothing on us. Sod ‘em all - I could write a novel… It was all inside me. I could do anything now.”
Paul McCartney, Anthology
Something happened in Paris and it wasn't just them getting haircuts and John buying Paul milkshakes. There was commitment there. And then the spell comes over them again when they return in January 1964:
The first night, John and Paul stayed in their suite, listening to records and reading fan mail. George, who had been signed for 100 pounds a day by the Daily Express to write of his experiences in Paris, went to a nightclub in the Place Pigalle.
Back in the City of Light, John and Paul slept till three o'clock in the afternoon. That much everybody agreed on.
Quote by Vincent Mulchrone from Daily Mail:
George Harrison was astir early, but John Lennon and Paul McCartney slumbered on until frantic photographers forced them at lens point into the Champs-Élysées.
Derek Taylor (a British journalist) wanted to know why the Beatles slept so much. "My office wants to know what they're doing in Paris, so they'd better be doing something."
Love Me Do by Michael Braun
But I know what you're thinking. "What the hell does this all have to do with these two songs?"
And my reply is to keep a few things in mind:
Paul takes criticism and slights incredibly hard, possibly overreacting in some places and letting them overwhelm him mentally.
He never got over Barcelona, he never stopped resenting Stuart and Brian, he never got over John pulling the rug out from under him regarding the order of their names in the song credits. He contemplated committing suicide by smothering himself while he was in Scotland recovering from John leaving him.
John Lennon had a baby with a woman in the middle of all this. Julian Lennon was born April 8, 1963, conceived in July 1962, less than a year after Paris.
However Absurd & The Lovers That Never Were
I listened to "However Absurd" and "The Lovers That Never Were" in that order. My immediate reaction is that these are both the same kind of song: they are both expressing sadness and frustration with John. This is a common theme with Paul's post-1980 John songs. What I find interesting is that they depict different though related gripes regarding John. In "However Absurd" Paul is expressing his longing for a cottagecore fantasy romance with John and then expressing frustration at John mocking him for it:
Ears twitch, like a dog
Breaking eggs in a dish
Do not mock me when I say
This is not a lie
But in "The Lovers That Never Were" Paul expresses a different gripe: frustration that John won't commit to him and "anticipating" the break up that he secretly knew was coming ever since 1963 when John abandoned him and his own son to play patty-cake with Brian in Spain:
I hang patiently on every word you send
Will we ever be much more than just friends?
As for you, you sit there playing this game
You keep me waiting
When all of the clocks have run down
All over the world
We'll be the lovers that never were
For as long as the sun shines in somebody's eyes
I believe in you baby, so don't tell me lies
For as long as the trees throw down blossoms and leaves
I know there will be a parade of unpainted dreams
And I know dear, how much it's going to hurt
If you still refuse to get your hands dirty
So you, you must tell me something… I love you
Say goodbye or anything
All of the clocks have run down
Time's at an end
If we can't be lovers we'll never be friends
John's penchant for disregarding Paul's feelings and even weaponizing them against Paul; the dashing of Paul's cottagecore dreams that were made and solidified in Paris; the fact that John, no matter what his intentions, could not get his shit together and commit to Paul no matter what he may have felt. These two songs are not contradictory to one another. Paul's idea of "commitment" looks very much like what he had with Linda and John in 1967: sharing a home, sharing a bed, being together every day, preferably somewhere green and remote. Exclusivity. Remember that Paul deliberately sabotaged his relationship with Jane Asher by nailing a woman in their bed when Jane came home, knowing perfectly well that he was breaking their exclusivity agreement.
That IMO, is what makes someone a lover and not just a friend you have sex with and secretly pine for. No cheating, or at least your agreed version of it. No disrespecting the relationship. Continuously being together. What did John do instead of this?
I think that Paul started out his "relationship" with John carrying high hopes and then watched them crumble to dust, over and over, because John simply did not take him seriously. He got Cynthia pregnant, he ran around on Paul with Brian, he had the nerve to flip out on Jane Asher when Paul brought her around when he was the one who couldn't stay faithful to Cynthia.
My hot take is that these songs demonstrate that Paul simply could not imagine John ever truly committing to him and treating him as a true partner. The homophobia and yes ~society~ is in there too but Paul was happy to flout this when it came to just about anyone else, traipsing all over France with Fraser and Mal. The difference is that he flat out didn't trust John. Being jilted for Stuart in Hamburg loomed too big in his head. Cynthia and Julian loomed too big in his head. Brian and Barcelona, realizing that John would happily betray whatever agreements or understandings he had with Paul simply to screw Paul out of a deal, loomed too big in his head. I think in particular its Barcelona that made Paul think John didn't value any of their professed ideals. John broke Paul's heart years before Yoko came along.
He didn't trust John. Fatalism is easier than taking control of your own life sometimes, and in Paul's mind there was no reason to believe John was genuine. Like, Paul knew John very well! He had very good reason to think that John was simply not serious about him. And John, no matter what his intentions were, proved that correct over and over and over and over.
So ultimately, I think that's what these songs are about. The melodies don't necessarily reflect this when I listened to them but I think that "The Lovers That Never Were" in particular is juxtaposing bitter wink-and-nod lyrics with an oddly perky tune. It's Paul laughing at himself for ever thinking John was willing to commit. He's mocking himself because while he allowed himself to get swept up in the dream of a possible genuine relationship with John, he knew deep down that it would go the way it did. That John would find a reason to get tired of him and abandon him. And then when Yoko came along, that's exactly what John did. Paul fatalistically accepted that the time had come and John met Paul's low expectations of him.
The Weight
I don't think John and Paul necessarily planned to have a secret relationship. It seems more like they bundled the sexual/romantic stuff into their "thing" where it was just part and parcel of who they were and what they did. "It's only gay if the balls touch" etc. At some point that changed but Paul became convinced early on that it wouldn't work out so he didn't acknowledge his own secret desires and dreams. There was no roadmap between him and John about where they were taking this exactly and how they were going to make it work. He had sex with John and even engaged with romantic actions with John, hoping against hope that something would change and he would be proven wrong, but then John would be careless and Paul would collapse into hurt.
And oh yeah: Paul never, ever discussed any of this with John Lennon. He never told John how hurt he was because he didn't want to put up with John's derision. He felt devalued and lost and in typical Paul fashion he chose to ignore this for years and never bring it up, forcing it to come out in bizarre nonsensical actions when he inevitably boiled over. Why would he choose to confront it? He made sure to set up several safety nets to catch him! Jane and the Ashers, striking out on his own with "The Family Way" score, rubbing John's face in his escapades with other males as a way to go 'see, I don't need you just like you don't need me. How about THAT?'
I don't think John ever intended to hurt Paul as badly as he did. He thought that if Paul was upset about something then he would know via their ~telepathic connection.~ I think that he deliberately overlooked warning signs because he felt intensely guilty about certain actions he took (God only knows which ones) and that he helped himself not see Paul's hurt. I do think if he had the slightest idea of what was going on in Paul's head then he would have changed tactics immediately out of fear of losing Paul forever. But at heart John was a coward and if he didn't want to see something was wrong then he wouldn't see it unless something forced his hand. Like say, having his former best friend/ex-lover look him in the eye and go "I can write new songs" and kill The Beatles in a court of law. (And of course once he realized what he had done, years after the fact, it was too little too late. He couldn't take it back. How do you make up for inflicting that much hurt on someone that you supposedly care for? This paralyzed John for years.)
This was obviously a huge mistake and I think it was one of the landmines that blew their relationship up. Paul allowed his distrust and bitterness to overwhelm him. He should have been honest with John about his feelings; maybe not immediately but when they were able to look back with some perspective. Paul should have realized that their relationship could take heat. He should have trusted John more and if he had then John could have risen to the occasion. Everything could have been different. No more "I believe in you baby, so don't tell me lies." No more "Do not mock me when I say/This is not a lie."
He even expresses this in a third song, one that IMO puts this entire thing into perspective and ties these three songs together with a neat bow. "This One":
Did I ever take you in my arms, look you in the eye
Tell you that 'I do?'
Did I ever open up my heart
And let you look inside?…
Did I ever touch you on the cheek
Say that you were mine, thank you for the smile?
Did I ever knock upon your door
Try to get inside?…
Please take note of the bolded "Tell you that 'I do'!" Paul's deepest regret with regards to John is not trusting him more. He wishes that he had opened up to John about his hurt and how he angry he was that John was devaluing their relationship. That he wanted to commit to John but that he was scared John wouldn't say 'I do' back.
From John's POV he's just being John; he's looking out for the band. God knows he tried to be what Paul needed him to be but he got mixed signals and inconsistent behavior and Paul's ice queen behavior frustrated him to no end. This resulted in an endless circle of "fuck you/no no no, fuck YOU/well fuck you then!/fuck you" that ended up killing what they had.
But John is guilty in this too. He never made himself accountable to Paul. He didn't explain his actions. He acted rashly and selfishly and then was shocked when it blew up in his face. He didn't consistently act like he loved Paul. He took Paul for granted and told himself that he was doing the right thing, because changing your behavior is very very hard. He didn't let Paul in when it mattered.
Did you ever take me in your arms
Look me in the eye, tell me that 'you do?'
As Paul grew up and he started to come to grips with the "What happened" of it all, maybe he realized that he had procrastinated. That he put off what mattered most because he couldn't bear to make himself vulnerable as a young man. Maybe he was waiting for a perfect moment to open himself up to John knowing perfectly well it would never arrive, a common delaying tactic for insecure and avoidant people. Not admitting that the perfect moment would never come and that he had to extend trust to receive it in return.
If I never did it, I was only waiting
For a better moment that didn't come
There never could be a better moment
Than this one, this one
I think he's still angry at John for multiple betrayals, slaps to the face, and devaluing the specialness of their relationship and their affection for each other. But I also think that Paul is angry at himself for not trusting John, for not working harder at their relationship. He also delivered multiple betrayals and slaps to the face to John, feeding John's insecurity and fears of abandonment. Making a mockery of their relationship and how special it was. Paul has been doing public penance for this ever since John died, which snapped everything into perspective and he finally realized the full scope of his own screw ups.
Because it took two to destroy a relationship this intense and this special. If Paul did not know that before...
After reading your view on John's treatment of Paul, I have to ask if you also have thougts on what happend between George and Paul during and after post Beatles. We know how they both treated him as the younger brother and how he tought they were to busy being John and Paul so they failed to see him though other artist saw him etc. We can also understand how he back away from John and Yoko. But what was his problems with Paul? Paul played on more George-Beatle songs than John did and George even played on John's solo record but said he would never play in a band with Paul again. Because there still seem to that he had another issue with Paul and there still seem to be tensions between them during the Anthology. Did Paul really deserved to be treated like that by both John and George. George went on a lot about his faith and spiritual seaching but not really lived up to it all the time. He played a lot about how unhappy he was in the Beatles and being famous buthe lived large with his cars and big house etc. I'm not defending Paul, well I do, but they both treated him so badly. Why, do you have any more ideas about that. Or what other artists, like ex Wings members etc who also complained about Paul's ways. I only ever see it as jealousy.
Legit had no idea how to answer this as George's dynamic with the rest of the band is opaque to me. I put the question to the McLennon server and they provided some very good answers, they have given me permission to copypaste it all here. I hope this helps Anon.
Note: I let the others talk and then I used Discord's "reply" function liberally to @ the different paragraphs. For tumblr I have rearranged the posts so that they read in order as full conversations instead of the weird mishmash that Discord produces. When you see weird timestamps, that is why.
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Leggy「IT'S A GUNDAM 」 — Yesterday at 11:00 AM
received an interesting ask from an anon, its very long so i'm just copy pasting
ask
What do we think of this?
my take is basically that George resented Paul because he replaced George with John and their relationship never recovered, which snowballed into these bigger issues about George's contributions to the Beatles and his growth as an artist.
I think it was amoralto who pointed out that Paul was safer for George to attack because Paul would forgive him whereas with John that wasn't the case. and yet George was able to cut John off later so what gives?
LocalGoblin — Yesterday at 1:43 PM
I think there's a lot to this dynamic that we're not privvy too.
What we do know, however, are things like how during the white album sessions, Paul was constantly undermining George's suggestions. I think it was George Martin who said that. We can even see it a bit in Get Back.
On top of that, even to this day, Paul calls George his little brother in interviews. He has always viewed George as the little kid of the group and that would feel incredibly patronising and demoralising.
Paul is a lot more wired that John, and I think that personality trait is just something that George stuggles with. John is the 'cool/fun parent'.
I know John also viewed George as the little kid. And I think this hurt George less because 1. John WAS that older kid/parental figure for so long. 2. You can't take what John was as seriously because he changes his mind day-to-day. 3. I think George honestly (probably) secretly respected Paul's opinion more. So Paul's remarks hurt more.
John = The deadbeat Disney dad.
Paul = The more serious and caring/overbearing parent
You can see how he would grow to resent Paul more. And I think he also blamed Paul for the breakup too. Or at least, how messy all of that was and all the horrible legal issues that came with it
Leggy「IT'S A GUNDAM 」 — Yesterday at 2:06 PM
this one hurts. oof. when I read about the break up in excerpts I get the feeling that George thought Paul's problem was the money and the business decisions and he didn't consider (or didn't want to consider) what was driving it emotionally….after all he felt like Paul didn't consider his feelings 😬
LocalGoblin — Yesterday at 1:52 PM
Anthology is interesting though. I really think George's attitude in that it partly because he needed to do it. He needed the money. I don't think he really wanted to do it. It was Paul's baby, and he also resented him for that. Hated Paul for being more comfortable financially too.
Paul didn't need to do anthology. George did.
Leggy「IT'S A GUNDAM 」 — Yesterday at 1:53 PM
genius, you're absolutely right
Leggy「IT'S A GUNDAM 」 — Yesterday at 2:08 PM
this was also around the time that Paul's sweet new deal with Capitol became a thing, i think, because Capitol offered like a significant profit increase for Paul on Beatles royalties if he signed his next few solo albums with them. That caused a lot of upset with George and Ringo iirc, so damn :(
LocalGoblin — Yesterday at 1:55 PM
(Also, Paul in a few interviews, has said that he was on good terms with John when he died - UNLIKE George. Almost rubbing it in George's face. I know he doesn't mean it. But I would be incredibly upset by that in George's position. To be constantly reminded of that.)
I think its funny that Paul is viewed as the PR savvy Beatles cause he puts his foot in his mouth all the time haha
That actually might be why he's more reserved in interviews now. Sticking to a script… Who knows!
Leggy「IT'S A GUNDAM 」 — Yesterday at 2:19 PM
Ha, god, probably. Paul has his moments, there's a good 80s interview where he bemoaned Frank Sinatra attributing a George song to maccalennon, but he doesn't seem to have been humbled until the Heather Mills circus.
vanessaaa0388 — Yesterday at 1:57 PM
In one of the AKOM podcasts they mentioned a George quote about how he was the closest beatle to John back when it was only them 2 taking LSD… it's my personal theory than in those months he almost felt like he was finally taking over Paul's spot in John's life…I dunno, I get very competitive vibes from George. In his mind he was competing for John with Paul. At least in certain points. And I think John took advantage of that.
Leggy「IT'S A GUNDAM 」 — Yesterday at 2:20 PM
Absolutely. Reminds me of, ha, Paul when he said that John was their personal Elvis. They all wanted his attention and approval.
I also wonder if George was seeking a mentor somewhere and if he thought John was it since they dropped together.
vanessaaa0388 — Yesterday at 2:01 PM
It's very complex, the Paul-George dynamic
Leggy「IT'S A GUNDAM 」 — Yesterday at 2:02 PM
Paul is the one who's always looking for a "project" and can't turn off, being with him must have been exhausting and then you add being talked down to all the time. whereas John can be fun and turn himself off and then maybe the sting of being talked down to isn't so bad. And like we saw in Get Back when John said "we need George Harrison" because he realized George was looking for reassurance, so he could also build George up when he felt like he should.
I guess with John its more like "lots of fun with a few pointed barbs thrown in" whereas with Paul he's steamrollering you constantly and will only occasionally throw in a compliment.
maybe since Paul is more consistent, it meant more to earn his respect? or something like that, like Vanessa pointed out George was competitive for John's approval and attention.
Leggy「IT'S A GUNDAM 」 — Yesterday at 2:12 PM
there's this consistent theme with George and Paul where Paul's closeness with John seems to really hurt and damage George. And its not like he could let it go easily either because Paul was also his teammate, not just John's. It was a quad act, not a double.
I think George said that being outside Lennon/Mccartney meant observing Beatlemania as a fan instead of as a bandmate. So he's getting all the trouble but very few of the benefits. And then there's the royalty issues on top of that.
Like, Paul was George's friend first, but then Paul pulped that friendship pretty much immediately when he saw John and never felt like he should do anything to fix it. And then George gets pulled into Beatlemania and then there's money problems and then Brian died.
Brian was George's big advocate I noticed, setting up a newspaper column in George's name (ghostwritten by someone else) because he wanted George to be his own brand outside the Beatles and maccalennon, so when he died a lot of that probably went down the drain too.
Leggy「IT'S A GUNDAM 」 — Yesterday at 2:23 PM
George seems to have been very lonely in the Beatles but due to all this:
I know John also viewed George as the little kid. And I think this hurt George less because 1. John WAS that older kid/parental figure for so long. 2. You can't take what John was as seriously because he changes his mind day-to-day. 3. I think George honestly (probably) secretly respected Paul's opinion more. So Paul's remarks hurt more.
I guess it was easier to shift some blame onto Paul.
A lot of George's spiritual journey appears to be about wanting to escape like when he sings about wanting to see God but being frustrated at how long it will take him. Its real but it also seems like he was pretty weary of life by his mid20s.
LocalGoblin — Yesterday at 2:40 PM
Yeah, you're so right. John was also the other Beatle who was more spiritually inclined. He was the only one besides George who was fully committed to the India trip. (At least for a time.) This was probably something they bonded over too.
There's also that quote… I can't remember what interview it's from. But George was asked what it was like being a Beatle and he says he doesn't really know. He always felt like he was on the outside looking in on Lennon/McCartney. It must've felt like a very lonely place.
vanessaaa0388 — Yesterday at 2:40 PM
I'm fascinated by J&P but I give George a lot of credit for putting up with them both for so long. I would've cut them out of my life so fast 😂
Leggy「IT'S A GUNDAM 」 — Yesterday at 4:05 PM
honestly they ruined George's life in some ways!
excerpts from the McLennon server (hamburg part 1)
This is Part One of an ongoing conversation in the McLennon server about John and Paul in Hamburg. Part Two is here: https://www.tumblr.com/bambi-kinos/718388247258136576/excerpts-from-the-mclennon-server-hamburg-part-2
In Part One of the Hamburg Conversation, we discuss why John and Paul ended up being so close after their stint in Hamburg during 1960, since this was the period where the Exis ostracized Paul and John and Stuart were up each other’s asses a lot.
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Leggy「little love of mine」 — 02/27/2023 4:10 PM
alright beatle babes big fucking thunks time
1960 kinda sucked for Paul, Hamburg was the big thing and John was busy hanging out with Stuart and the Exis and was super teenagery about it. Paul felt abandoned and was super teenagery about it. There were a lot of sex workers, beer, and amphetamine pills going around. Gangsters roamed about, mostly not giving a shit about the Beatles tbh. They re-discovered girls. Paul gets deported.
Then we hit 1961 and this is happening: https://twitter.com/BeatlesArchive2/status/1630289665323589632?s=20
Leggy「little love of mine」 — 02/27/2023 4:19 PM
Stuart stayed with Astrid and John seemed to be okay with this whereas he went to extreme lengths to separate Paul from his dad upon returning to Liverpool (which was a good thing), Paris happened, Stuart and Paul had a fistfight on stage where John de facto chose Paul by not disciplining him over the fight. What changed
Personally I think Hamburg changed how John viewed Paul. He got to see Paul in an adult context for the first time. I legit don't think John saw Paul as anything other than another friend -- that's not because of Rule 10, that's something I really believe. John simply didn't take Paul seriously until they got to Hamburg. They were friends and they had a tight bond thanks to Mary/Julia's passing, I don't doubt for a second that their friendship was already very close. John knew Paul was attractive but I don't think he fully put together what that meant until later. Hamburg slowly transmuted that into something else for John, he saw Paul in a brand new context and watched him flourish into a young adult away from the childhood context of Liverpool. And that lead him somewhere else.
Stuart didn't have prospects in Liverpool, his application to be a TA had already been rejected so he was ready to move on. John was able to respect that and let Stu go....because he figured out what he wanted. So he pursued Paul and very heavily too.
louiselux — 02/27/2023 4:33 PM
Paul said that they felt somehow they were headed for big things, but i wonder when that feeling coalesced for them? Maybe beyond all the teen psychodrama, the side effect of Hamburg was getting technically good for the first time, and that’s when that feeling happened, like a mutual sense growing of ‘this man can take me places’
Leggy「little love of mine」 — 02/27/2023 4:34 PM
ohhh i like this
louiselux — 02/27/2023 4:38 PM
You know, them getting to know all these other bands and maybe realising that Lennon/McCartney together was a different better creature
Leggy「little love of mine」 — 02/27/2023 4:40 PM
Especially since they were experimenting with the songwriting at that point. Not a whole lot but they were doing it, that was a way for them to distinguish themselves from the other bands. They were trying to find their niche and the Lennon/McCartney thing started clicking into place.
louiselux — 02/27/2023 4:41 PM
Also very much YES to your point about Paul becoming a hot adult man rather than cute boy baby
Leggy「little love of mine」 — 02/27/2023 4:42 PM
So you take the hypercharged atmosphere of Hamburg, put that with them starting to push themselves creatively and not just do cover songs....
louiselux — 02/27/2023 4:42 PM
And Paul growing shoulders and forearm hair
Leggy「little love of mine」 — 02/27/2023 4:47 PM
Maybe they also set their flirting pattern in Hamburg -- John being an ass, Paul being cold in response to get John's attention, making each other jealous on purpose etc. Even if they didn't realize what they were doing in the moment.
I'm fascinated at how much of a slow motion thing it all was, this attraction between them. It wasn't sudden, it was a long burning thing. They spent that first trip getting with women, boozing, going pro, there's the psychodrama going on in the background and John's very intense no matter what.... And when it all finally ended John sought out Paul in Liverpool....
louiselux — 02/27/2023 5:09 PM
It's clear that they excited each other in various ways ever since they first met, but it seems like it did take a while to click into place. With Stu, I really get the sense that John had met someone he thought of as his equal at that time, in adulthood and sensibilities, and that he didn't consider Paul an equal in that way. So maybe that is the thing we are tracking here, the realisation that Paul is like...The One? Over those Hamburg years
Leggy「little love of mine」 — 02/27/2023 5:19 PM
yeah! I think that's it exactly :ogeyes: Stuart was loved and lovable to John but Paul had a special impact
mynamesbetty — 02/27/2023 6:53 PM
John had his blinders on to everything but success as a musician - he'd failed out of art school and couldn't hold down a regular job, so he made music his life
Before Hamburg Paul had prospects to continue in school and go to university, and he was still living at home and listening to his father (where John had stopped caring what Mimi said and may have moved out into the flat on Gambier Terrace by this point
In Hamburg, Paul starves and stinks and plays 6-8 hours a night, just like John, putting his all into the group and mach schau and living in squalor for the music
Where Stu was never that enthusiastic about the group, John had to convince him to buy an instrument and join, and when he met Astrid it was a done deal
So John can let go of someone who's already letting go of him because it's obvious what's happening and Stu is going to be happier an an artist, and they're good enough friends to accept this
But he looks at Paul, who's working just as hard as he is to make the Beatles a success, and something clicks for him
Leggy「little love of mine」 — 02/27/2023 7:14 PM
something clicks for him...
Morrigan — 02/27/2023 9:18 PM
I, too, find this time fascinating. I agree that while he was drawn to him and attracted to him (maybe even subconsciously), John didn’t see Paul as an equal adult quote yet. Two years difference can feel quite big at that age. But then I also find it fascinating that John said they were both horrible to Stu in Hamburg. I wouldn’t put it past John to have played them against each other, especially after Stu got with Astrid
Misery — 02/27/2023 9:27 PM
Trying to see which one of them would stick it out through his behaviour maybe
mynamesbetty — 02/27/2023 9:32 PM
Always hiding his soft mushy center under a hard layer of nasty humor and bad behavior
Leggy「little love of mine」 — 02/27/2023 9:32 PM
John absolutely played them off each other. He was a jerk to both of them in Hamburg and would team up with the other one, peak frat bro honestly.
mynamesbetty — 02/27/2023 9:32 PM
King John sits on his throne and says "which one of you loves me more?"
Leggy「little love of mine」 — 02/27/2023 9:33 PM
😂 but also 😭
Misery — 02/27/2023 9:33 PM
Mhm mhm mhm
This exactly
VeggieRavioli — 02/27/2023 9:37 PM
Tony Sheridan quote RE: J&P in Hamburg that’s relevant here
Leggy「little love of mine」 — 02/27/2023 9:39 PM
They were like two pieces of a jigsaw puzzle: they needed each other and fitted together.
pain
It was very menacing for me to hear the Liverpool accent when it was aggressive, especially when it was John. He was so caustic, and though he never scared me he could cut you down with a couple of words and a glance, and did. We got on OK because he had a bit of respect for me - I'd been on the telly - but we never got close. He was full of complexes, and to compensate for that he had a big ego. He was the intellectual and extrovert driving force, the natural leader. Paul was very talented, a frisky kind of guy, completely extrovert. His whole life was the show.
interesting that he characterizes both of them as extroverted
VeggieRavioli — 02/27/2023 9:49 PM
there's another quote in my head that I can't find, about how the interplay between John and Paul was the epicenter of the Beatles' mach shau-ing in Hamburg
Hamburg is where they truly tapped into their onstage chemistry. They might not have been songwriting during this time - too exhausted and overworked for that obv - but it's where they realized how their partnership could electrify an entire room, not just their music and their singing
mynamesbetty — 02/27/2023 9:52 PM
Lesley-Ann Jones, The Search for John Lennon, on John's motivations for having Stu in the band - she's harsher on him than I would be but I can't say she's completely wrong
But John can't needle and bitch about Paul's musicianship to make himself feel better because Paul is just as good and maybe ever more talented than John, so he stops complaining where Paul is concerned and starts thinking about what they can accomplish together
Morrigan — 02/27/2023 9:54 PM
It’s truly fascinating how evident that was to so many people
I think the whole Stu situation was majorly messy…teenagers or young adults in over their heads..ego, sexuality, hormones and messy emotions running rampant all of the place …add to that drugs and alcohol. It must’ve been fascinating to watch from afar though
VeggieRavioli — 02/27/2023 9:57 PM
I don't agree with the latter part of this passage tbh, John didn't need any propping up in terms of having his ability recognized versus Paul's
mynamesbetty — 02/27/2023 9:58 PM
Yeah, that part I disagree with from our outside perspective, but John was always insecure about his abilities as a musician
Morrigan — 02/27/2023 9:59 PM
Yeah I also disagree on that part
Leggy「little love of mine」 — 02/27/2023 10:01 PM
John respected that core of iron, the fact that he couldn't maneuver Paul endlessly fascinated him. I still don't know how to judge John's feelings about his own musicianship, I guess that's where the competitive aspect comes in, but it is fascinating that he decided to prioritize the health of the band over his personal feelings about Paul's abilities.
mynamesbetty — 02/27/2023 10:02 PM
John's nascent case of imposter syndrome couldn't stand up to the blazing pillar of self confidence that was eighteen year old stinky rat boy Paul McCartney
VeggieRavioli — 02/27/2023 10:06 PM
but the part about Stu entrancing the chicks is dead on lol — of all the Beatles, was Stu the first to provoke an on-sight orgasm out of the audience?? We will never know
louiselux — 02/28/2023 3:12 AM
He’s gonna ride that stinky rat boy all the way to the top!
louiselux — 02/28/2023 3:30 AM
John seemed to be very incisive about people’s musical abilities in general, but seemed to get stuck when assessing his own.
alfenbalf — 02/28/2023 3:54 AM
Tony Sheridan giving off big "I'm from Norfolk" energy here. Baby, John has the softest, gentlest Liverpool accent ever
I love Klaus
louiselux — 02/28/2023 4:14 AM
Ha! That explains it - John's accent is the softest
Leggy「little love of mine」 — 02/28/2023 8:22 PM
John had the classic "mildly clever kid trapped in the american school system" problem where he was able to coast on his natural gifts for years and then struggled to respond to situations that challenged his abilities. And then he has the help/hindrance of being with Paul and Paul is able to challenge him, and get his skill levels up, but Paul was also a crutch for him in a lot of ways so John didn't learn how to deal with challenges on his own. Most people wouldn't in his situation.
People like John benefit immensely from mentorships preferably from a young age. Hence the proliferation of masterful artists during the Renaissance. In ideal circumstances John would have been apprenticed to someone as eclectic as he was who could educate him and grow his talents. His real talent lay in the fact that he was able to self teach everything he needed to know.
He really was a natural leader.
mynamesbetty — 02/28/2023 8:25 PM
That rich old lady (or man) to support him while he focused on his art never materialized so he pulled his socks up and did it all himself
excerpts from the McLennon server (hamburg part 2)
Thank you everyone for your patience. This is Part Two of the ongoing Hamburg Conversation from the McLennon server. Part One is here: https://www.tumblr.com/bambi-kinos/718114537612656640/excerpts-from-the-mclennon-server
In Part Two of the Hamburg Conversation we discussed the 1960 trip from Paul’s POV and why he abandoned the Beatles to get a job as a coil winder. This goes into Stuart and Klaus and the Exis, plus how Paul reacted to John’s mind games where he pitted his loved ones against each other. Much has been made of John in Hamburg and how it connected to his later patterns but very little discussion of Paul comparatively.
This conversation was much messier as it spanned several days. We used Discord’s “reply” feature liberally. Sometimes you will see disparate time stamps; this is because I decided to pair the replies with the original comments they were replying to for the sake of readability. Please let me know if there are any confusing points where this doesn’t work and I’ll do my best to clarify the conversation.
***
Leggy「little love of mine」 — 05/07/2023 11:02 PM
I am back on my bullshit about Hamburg again. this period is just super fascinating to me because of all the possibilities and the way things happened the way they did
I also want to understand why Paul chose John when the first Hamburg trip really sucked in a lot of ways and it could easily have ended with them going off to do something else.
in the beginning John helped Stuart bully Paul and he ostracized Paul from the group via the Exis (apparently deliberately? I go back and forth on this all the time, because I wouldn't put it past John to do it on purpose... but then again his MO was to get enamored with something new only to eventually drop it and snuggle up to Paul again so John probably didn't see it that way?) But once all of that was over and they were back in Liverpool, John tracked down Paul and he had to do a lot of shitwork to get back into Paul's good graces again.
Paul found a job at his dad's behest but I don't think he would have continued with the Beatles if John hadn't come to fetch him. John did something really smart when he came to fetch Paul from the yard where Paul was working: he brought George. First he had to tell George "yeah I'm back" but then he brought George with him to ask Paul to come back. Smart. Strength in numbers. Shows that he's serious and it doesn't look like he's begging because he brought another band member with him.
but Paul didn't leave that job immediately. It took months for Paul to fully come back to the Beatles. John eventually had to give him an ultimatum. I think after the experience of Stuart and the Exis and the group bullying, I think that those months were John working his way back into Paul's good graces again. And eventually Paul forced John to prove that he still wanted Paul, in a way.
Earlier when we talked about this Betty made a really good point that Paul was the one fighting for the music, like John was. Stuart met Astrid and John let him go because he knew Stuart was already choosing Astrid over him so it was better not to fight it.
But that period after John came back... that's fascinating. John recuperated for a while by not telling anyone he had come back. Paul got a job (and it sounds like he didn't need a lot of pushing) and I think it was because he might have been preparing to leave the Beatles thing behind completely.
Like I think Paul came back to Liverpool thinking that he and John were not friends anymore. IMO Paul carried the memory of the experience with the Exis around and that he remained distant from them forever.
Funnily enough, Paul has turned out the real black sheep of the whole trip. Everybody hates him and I only feel sorry for him.” — Stuart Sutcliffe in a letter to Rod Murray, late 1960
Leggy「little love of mine」 — 05/07/2023 11:09 PM
I mean look at that. Look at the sheer petty contempt in that quote + the caricature. That's something else man. There's no way Paul doesn't carry the memory of that with him. And I think its present in the Revolver cover as well. Look at how Klaus portrays Paul:
I think Paul looks off to the side because that's all Klaus really gets out of him. We all know what it's like to be treated in a crappy way by friends-of-your-friends and I've said before that I think the first Hamburg trip is where a lot of John and Paul's patterns got solidified. So Paul isn't friends with the Exis, even in 1966, because he remembers who Klaus is and who he hung out with and I think those memories are very painful for him. He holds on to them. Maybe not grudges but he holds onto that pain. (And I mean, that's fair. I still remember my elementary school bully and if she were on fire in front of me I wouldn't even take a whizz on her.)
Klaus only ever saw Paul's profile... if they don't meet your eyes do you really know them? John rarely met Yoko's eyes in public I notice, whereas he was constantly diving into Paul's.... right up until that photo from the Lost Weekend where he's turned as far away from Paul as he can get... So Paul's profile being the thing Klaus drew speaks to the distance between Paul and Klaus... and Paul and the other Beatles. Even among other misfits, Paul doesn't fit in. In a lot of ways Linda was the only one who could accept him for his true self even if there was a lot of nastiness underneath that.
I think the 1966 cover is indicative that Paul held Klaus at a distance, even then. Klaus saw Paul's loneliness in Hamburg and how this made him bitter, apparently doesn't empathize with it very much since he played on HDYS.
If Klaus had tried to make friends with Paul as adults, he would have run full into the Wall. There's no way that Paul McCartney would be friends with someone who drew a caricature of him like that when Paul was friendless and in pain and the only thing he had was music and girls.
And I understand that Hamburg was full of psychosexual drama from 18 and 20 year olds, but I think that its significant because of how Paul got frozen in time due to the fame thing, struggling to grow up, suffering from a kind of Peter Pan syndrome.
So I find it interesting that... Paul got a job after Hamburg. I don't think John would have had to show up with George on Paul's lunch break and essentially beg him to come back if Paul had been gung ho about the Beatles. John had to earn his way back into a friendship with Paul. It took months for Paul to give up the job and join the Beatles fully, John remembers it as a "long trip."
There's another recollection that when John finally gave Paul the ultimatum that Paul bounced into the Cavern -- what if this is Paul being happy that John chose him, that John cared enough to give Paul an ultimatum?
John remembers it as a custody battle between him and Jim where he fought Jim for Paul's attention... but what if Paul saw it as something else entirely?
Leggy「little love of mine」 — 05/07/2023 11:20 PM
Like, Paul got a job after Hamburg. He didn't know that John was back in town. I don't think we know when John told him that he was back. I think Paul got a job because he thought that he and John were not friends anymore after his experiences in Hamburg and the last thing he expected was for John to show up and nag him about coming back. I think Paul was convinced that John would go all in with Stuart and the Exis or that they were a sign that John was done with Paul completely. He didn't understand that John was watching Paul the entire time they were in Hamburg, watching Paul be in the filth with him, taking the pills and dealing with the gangsters and living for the music in a way that Stuart never could.
And from Paul's POV, the long stretch of months between John finding him at the spooling yards to beg Paul to come back, and Paul being given an ultimatum that he needed to choose between his job or the Beatles -- I think that period was Paul waiting to see if John really loved him/was really wanting to be Paul's friend or not.
BRrraCKets! — 05/08/2023 4:56 AM
Paul doesnt suffer fools gladly, he called out the Exis on some of their bullshit and they didnt like it. They also took to Stuart and I would imagine it was a case of if your friend doesnt like someone then they dont either. Ive always felt that Klaus didnt like Paul, most of his drawings of him arent very nice, theres an odd one thats ok. That Revolver cover has always irked me with how hes drawn Paul compared to the others. I like your take on it.
Leggy「little love of mine」 — 05/08/2023 5:01 AM
Do you remember the details on Paul's interactions with the Exis? I don't remember that from Tune In.
That's a really good point about Stu not liking him so the others took the lead from him, oof.
I think Klaus may have (hopefully) chilled out on Paul since then but yeah, I don't think they're really friendly towards each other. Maybe "dislike" is too strong but they only ever had John and Stu in common and, well. Paul never let Klaus in.
BRrraCKets! — 05/08/2023 5:04 AM
Ive read of it somewhere but cant remember where! It was just a sentence or two.
Leggy「little love of mine」 — 05/08/2023 5:04 AM
Probably a Paul bio of which I am reading McCartney Legacy
we'll have to wait for Betty to wake up
BRrraCKets! — 05/08/2023 5:45 AM
I wonder, when Stuart left the Beatles, did Klaus hope to take his place on the bass. Paul stepping in would have been another reason to dislike him.
Leggy「little love of mine」 — 05/08/2023 5:47 AM
That's an interesting idea. No clue but maybe that's an angle....
Morrigan — 05/08/2023 6:16 PM
He did. I believe he says it in his memoirs, but also in an interview about the book in 2001. He said he asked John, but it was too late; Paul had already taken up the bass
Even if that had happened, I don’t think Klaus would’ve fit in, them all being from Liverpool and Klaus being German (I’m half-German, I can say that lol)
Plus he came from a very rich (diamond mines etc) background..sure, his family lost everything in the war, but some of the posh attitude was still there. And despite being fascinated by it, he didn’t consider rock n roll “real” music
Leggy「little love of mine」 — 05/08/2023 7:19 PM
did not know this about Klaus, huh
Morrigan — 05/08/2023 7:24 PM
He talked about his grandfather being this fabulously rich eccentric
Leggy「little love of mine」 — 05/08/2023 7:25 PM
huh! i need to check his stuff out then
Morrigan — 05/08/2023 7:31 PM
It’s in this German interview
With the provocative headline “I would’ve been better than Paul”
Apple_Scruff — 05/08/2023 5:48 AM
Paul playing based has always sounded like a forced thing out of desperation.
I doubt he would have agreed to switch to bass if Klaus was offering.
Leggy「little love of mine」 — 05/08/2023 5:51 AM
Agree but....he may not have liked it if Klaus offered since he was so pushy about Stuart's playing.
BRrraCKets! — 05/08/2023 6:14 AM
He didnt want anyone else muscling in. The group nucleus was set. His guitar was shot, he was filling in on piano, a bit of bass when S couldnt be arsed to show up, what else was he to do when G&J downright refused to take it on. Theyd gone home by then too.
mynamesbetty — 05/08/2023 7:50 AM
unfortunately I can't think of anything like that in what I've read, I'll take a look at Tune In and the other Paul bios I have later
We know that Paul is willing to ice people out when he feels they aren't working out for him as friends/collaborators, and after months of doing the most for the group and getting shat on by his songwriting partner and the Exis he was probably thinking "fuck it, I don't need this treatment" and got a job to start separating himself from the group
But John knows by now that Paul is his golden ticket and he has to get Paul back, so once he gets over the self-pity of leaving Hamburg in disgrace and works up the courage to ask Paul to come back, he brings George along to present a united front
The Beatles first show after coming back from Hamburg was on December 27 1960 at Litherland Town Hall, a few weeks after John arrived back in Liverpool
And I'd bet anything that Paul skipping back to rehearsal all smiles was because he felt like he'd gotten one over on Stuart and the Exis, in a "nyah-nyah he chose me over you (blows raspberries and making wanking motion)" kind of way
Leggy「little love of mine」 — 05/08/2023 8:46 AM
yesss perf
And it all worked out for him when John didn't discipline Paul for punching Stuart even tho he most likely lost
He had a good feeling about John making his choice too....
Morrigan — 05/08/2023 10:24 AM
According to that interview from 2001, Klaus asked John to join and play bass right after Stu left, but John said Paul had already taken up the bass
Of course, in 2001, Klaus was still speculating what would have happened if he became the 5th Beatle and saying he thinks his bass playing would’ve been better for John’s style in later years
Morrigan — 05/08/2023 10:33 AM
That whole interview [Klaus] showed both admiration and, imo, some disdain for Paul (and Paul wrote the foreword for his book, I believe)
In that Interview he also vehemently denies anything sexual between John and Stu
It’s a fascinating period. I believe I read John was back in Liverpool anywhere from 10 days to three weeks before contacting George and Paul
Which means he couldn’t have been to any of their usual hangouts
Leggy「little love of mine」 — 05/08/2023 10:36 AM
lol
lmao
>better for John's later style
>john and stu had nothing sexual going on
incredible. so many things wrong
Leggy「little love of mine」 — 05/08/2023 12:01 PM
John periodically took time off to recharge, it was one of his quirks/needs.
Morrigan — 05/08/2023 10:45 AM
I thinks it’s still a bit of envy…everyone who got close to the Beatles and thinks “what if”
To be fair, he did admit that Paul was instrumental in making the Beatles famous, because “John wasn’t a frontman” and Paul was the only professional of the group
But you can read between the lines that there is disdain there for the Beatles’ early sound and Paul was a “charlatan”….the PR man
Morrigan — 05/08/2023 10:58 AM
It’s interesting that John said the way he felt after he came back after Hamburg was similar to how he felt before Paris 1961…but time he wanted Paul to be there
Leggy「little love of mine」 — 05/08/2023 12:09 PM
and Paris 1961 ended up being a two week period of great renewal and joy for John, all because of Paul. No wonder he tried to recreate it with Yoko.
louiselux — 05/08/2023 11:41 AM
It’s such a fascinating period! In the breakup Paul must’ve recognised some of John’s behaviour from back then. Dropping Paul and replacing him with someone else who is more arty and special. John may have been being tactical about it back then, maybe playing Paul and Stu against each other, waiting to see where the nexus of power/talent/ambition lay, and therefore his future. Paul wouldn’t have appreciated that at all, like who would? Also John must’ve known the power he had over Paul, and vice versa, in any number of ways inc sexuality, attraction, love, obsession. That cartoon by Klaus is so deeply unkind, coupled with Stu’s letter. You have to wonder what Paul was like with them, and what all of their behaviour was like on the daily.
louiselux — 05/08/2023 11:51 AM
But it is so interesting that Paul got a crappy job on the lorries, John ignored them all for weeks, and Stu was never coming back to the band. Because the gig they subsequently did that Christmas at Litherland Town Hall was where they realised how good they were compared to the Liverpool bands, and how vastly exciting the public found them. So back from Hamburg they obviously collectively didn’t know where they were going or what they were doing, or even if they were a band. I wonder just how much persuasion had to go on on John’s part to get back in with Paul. A lot of charming, a lot of fuss and attention, persuading, light grovelling
Leggy「little love of mine」 — 05/08/2023 12:18 PM
in Tune In there's a lot of quotes from George about how they felt they had a lot of talent compared to the other bands, even when they were JaPaGe and they didn't actually warrant the confidence. I think for them they were seeking energy, technical ability, and stamina which Hamburg earned them in spades and brought their talent up to their expectations at last.
Morrigan — 05/08/2023 11:57 AM
Definitely shades of Yoko/John later on…Paul probably hoped/thought that would play out the same way as Stu.
But we also get so many contradictory stories out of Hamburg, like John claiming he and Paul bullied Stu and afterwards felt bad about it
John turned away from music after Julia’s death and turned to drink and rage, it also kinda to Stu and art..only Paul’s persistence in pursuing John (for the band, for himself) turned that a bit back around.
I always wonder if at that point, John wasn’t getting from Paul what he really wanted, also there was still the age gap.. Stu was older, maybe came across as more mature and adventurous
Even George, I believe, said with Yoko, John was trying to replicate what he had with Stu.
Leggy「little love of mine」 — 05/08/2023 12:20 PM
Yeah. its a conundrum about what that means. Did John actually feel bad after bullying Stu or did he only feel bad because then Stu died and he did some self reflecting?
Paul was very instrumental in helping John cope with losing Julia, to be fair. Paul is cited by many outsiders to be the only one who never lost his patience with John even when he was being a public embarrassment or acting violent and cruel. my personal take is that Paul is the one who cleaned John up and made him fit company for Stu and Cynthia and otherwise they would have both run away from John..
louiselux — 05/08/2023 12:01 PM
That is completely fascinating to think of Yoko as a Stu replacement.
Morrigan — 05/08/2023 12:03 PM
Yoko’s comments how John talked about Stu every day and how he was the best friend he ever had…I always thought she did that hurt Paul. And also, Stu died so young, I can believe John put him up on some untouchable pedestal that wouldn’t have survived if Stu had lived
louiselux — 05/08/2023 12:04 PM
Agreed. You have to wonder what Lennon/McCartney would have been like with a Sutcliffe in the mix. Maybe not that different, possibly. Because Paul grew in confidence and became endlessly bold and weird
louiselux — 05/08/2023 12:08 PM
Yoko likely said a lot of things with the intention of hurting him
Leggy「little love of mine」 — 05/08/2023 12:08 PM
A lot of people who were John-oriented have this complaint, that they think Paul was somehow "fake" just because he's good at selling and connects with an audience. IMO it always says a lot more about the complainer's personal issues with Paul rather than it being a legitimate criticism. Klaus doesn't like Paul because Paul cut the Exis down to size and Stuart apparently overtly hated him, then Stuart died and Paul took over the bass position which Klaus apparently asked for himself (‼️) and then Paul had the nerve to go swanning all over the world getting famous for being John's creative partner.... and no matter what Klaus says, he has eyes, he knows how John looked at Paul and what that meant.
It's just another case of someone being bitter because of Paul's success. John used Klaus as a bassman on HDYS the recording that Ringo walked out on but George did not.
Leggy「little love of mine」 — 05/08/2023 12:16 PM
It being John looking for a potential future, that's an interesting idea. I think at that point John had kind of given up on that since he had been kicked out of art school by that point or was on his way to doing it. Music became his life because it kept his attention and he loved it -- he told a girl he was dating at the Cavern not to screw up her placement at art school the way he did. I don't know if he had high expectations for himself there -- what did John think of his heart? was he actually proud of it?
Paul said that he'd sometimes gang up on Stu with John as well as vice versa so I think it was definitely a case of John pitting them against each other to make them compete for the Best Friend spot. But then when Paul was deported he got a job instead of crawling back to John.... very reminiscent of the break up. Paul would fight for John but once he perceived he lost (Stu, Yoko) then he was perfectly capable of cutting John off. Paul is sensitive to being mistreated.
this is all speculation but I think that first trip was hard for Paul. He was lonely, he wanted John's attention, probably acted out and then got mocked and jeered at for it.
So he paid women to pay attention to him and then he was attractive and treated them decently which made him popular so while John is enjoying Stu's company and hanging out with the Exis, Paul simply hides in women and practices his guitar.
We have seen this before.
Leggy「little love of mine」 — 05/08/2023 12:21 PM
John wanted an equal and Paul just wasn't it, even if they had chemistry. John didn't take Paul seriously until Hamburg in 1960 when he watched Paul become a man and watched him be furiously independent no matter what slings and arrows he took.
But Stu was patient and was able to meet John on a different field with Art, and John needed that very much. Paul was too young for what he wanted in a very real way.
with a Stuart that lived, I think Paul would have been pushed to make a public declaration to John instead of waffling forever. Stu was Paul's only serious competition.
louiselux — 05/08/2023 1:31 PM
I think so too! Something would have had to give, because John could have gone running off to Stu at any moment
Morrigan — 05/08/2023 1:33 PM
I do wonder about that scenario. It looked like John had accepted that Stu was off with Astrid. And the Paris honeymoon happened while Stu was still alive. It seems like J and P had cemented and defined their relationship
Now if Stu and Astrid didn’t last and Stu came back to Liverpool at some point…
He may have always been hanging around in the background…or maybe not.
mynamesbetty — 05/08/2023 2:04 PM
John praising Paul's abilities as a bass player in 1980 must have rankled him lol, he said Paul was one of the most innovative bass players in rock
mynamesbetty — 05/08/2023 2:27 PM
addendum: The Beatles with Chas Newby on bass played the Casbah on December 17 1960, we regret the error
Morrigan — 05/08/2023 2:36 PM
Good! I hope it rankled
Leggy「little love of mine」 — 05/08/2023 3:35 PM
Stu had no future in Liverpool and he knew it. His application for a position at the Liverpool art college was rejected and he had a great apprenticeship going with an older German artist who recognized his talent. Stuart had no reason to back to Liverpool except to visit. I also think that Stu found his person in Astrid and their relationship would have worked.
I think the greatest threat to Paul would not be Stu's presence but what he represented in John's life: a peer who had a profound hold on John in an avenue that Paul wasn't confident about competing in. I think Paul would be very worried about John going back to Stu for sure, because he can't help being insecure about their relationship.
I think, to this day even since John is fucking dead, Paul is still worried that he will make John disgusted or bored and that John will leave him again. Irrational? Yeah. True? You bet.
I think a timeline where Stuart lives would force Paul into a corner: either he breaks the relationship or he takes a leap of faith.
Leggy「little love of mine」 — 05/08/2023 4:01 PM
if anything else, this fundamental fear of Paul's would be the driver to any action Paul took regarding John in a timeline where Stuart lives. The deathly fear that Stu will take John away from him, again... Stu didn't have to be present in Liverpool, his specter would hang over everything.
Morrigan — 05/08/2023 4:25 PM
I can completely see that. And totally agree on Paul’s fears until this day.
I just wonder if Stu would’ve kept this idealised spot… or if he would’ve pissed John off some point like a lot of people did, which led John to cutting him off.
Or, I guess, John could’ve remained loyal to him like he did to many old friends (at least until New York) and maybe got him to do cover or promo art for The Beatles. Can you imagine?!
Stu was so very young; it’s difficult to say what could’ve happened
Misery — 05/08/2023 4:30 PM
God and the thing with Paul in Hamburg too is like
Here’s this high strung cash strapped teenager. Now we’re going to take him to a foreign country, get him addicted to amphetamines, and completely abandon him for a “cooler” friend group. Wait, why is he being so annoying?????
Like, the exis loved George, and Pete was just doing his own thing because he was so independent from the rest of the group, meanwhile Paul is all of a sudden entirely friendless for seemingly no reason, and the things that he was doing back in Liverpool are suddenly seen as annoying and stupid, and he’s being ignored left and right.
And obviously the huge caveat for the drama in Hamburg is of course that they were all idiot teens/barely adults, who had suddenly been thrust into a new stressful circumstance, so no wonder they all went insane a little bit.
Like you’ve all said it’s something that time/stu living would change a lot, but that wasn’t meant to be
Morrigan — 05/08/2023 6:24 PM
I really feel for Paul during that trip. I think we can kinda guess what he was feeling, but I can’t get a real read on John at the time.
Leggy「little love of mine」 — 05/08/2023 7:24 PM
Yeah, John is a real enigma here. He was very close mouthed about this period aside from some little things. Presumably because it's too painful with Stuart's death. Or maybe he just didn't care because the whole thing didn't have the same weight for him as it did for Paul... or he was too ashamed to talk about it....
But John not caring seems very unlikely since Hamburg 1960 is where he came out even more insane about Paul.
Morrigan — 05/08/2023 7:33 PM
It might’ve been the drugs, his sexual explorations, mental health issues..but it is interesting he didn’t really talk about that period…
Maybe too painful because it was the real start of them as The Beatles and he really missed it
Leggy「little love of mine」 — 05/08/2023 7:38 PM
ouch
this is a big part of it i bet
mynamesbetty — 05/08/2023 8:04 PM
Tune In, written by the king of the Paul haters, pg 374-5
Many Years From Now,
pg 64-5
Leggy「little love of mine」 — 05/08/2023 8:06 PM
the amount of seething contempt for a lonely 18 year old in these paragraphs, astounding
Morrigan — 05/08/2023 10:26 PM
And I don’t think we can 100% trust Stu’s view of things either. That’s maybe how he wanted things to be. I’m not saying Paul didn’t have a rough time, but Stu may have embellished somewhat in that letter (because he also knew how important Paul was to John ultimately)
Leggy「little love of mine」 — 05/08/2023 10:54 PM
Yeah. It occurs to me (like now, as I'm writing this) that Stuart was probably venting in that letter. I don't think he liked Paul at all but that's a lot of hatefulness in one sentence and I really dislike the idea of John deliberately tolerating someone who overtly despised Paul that much. John was an asshole at times but I struggle to imagine him encouraging that level of antipathy. So hopefully it wasn't quite that bad for Paul.
louiselux — 05/09/2023 3:12 AM
Also him thinking that a letter from anyone reveals ‘the stark truth of the matter’ rather than just another pov on a situation. Mehhhh.
I didn’t know that about Klaus asking to be the bass player. He seems to be a person who was used to getting what he wanted, being rich and pretty, and is it possible that he resented Paul for taking a place in the Beatles/John’s friendship that he thought should have been his?
louiselux — 05/09/2023 3:26 AM
The situation is weird and so opaque. I doubt John ‘hated’ Paul, as Stu put it, because why would he suddenly hate him after being so close? But John might’ve loved being accepted as a part of the new exciting clique and that might’ve trumped everything else for a bit. John was obsessed with having his gang. It feels like a lot of heightened teenage dynamics we’re going on.
Leggy「little love of mine」 — 05/09/2023 9:23 AM
thinking that the letter holds some objective truth is a classic mistake that Lewisohn makes all the time, because its easier than accepting that there were multiple POVs on what happened. Lewisohn thinks he can flatten everything and that there's an objective "truth" to discover and present (courtesy of him naturally.) It's just dumb no matter what. One of the first things I was taught about historical study was that primary sources are king because multiple POVs proliferate. It was Paul who compared Beatlemania to an earthquake and how different stories sprout from it and they're all true.
I wonder how much Klaus was shitposting or trying to grab attention via headlines with claims like that. I would be very surprised if John gave serious consideration to Klaus joining the band, Paul was already a sure thing and he clearly wasn't going to be happy with anyone else playing bass. I hope Klaus didn't actually think he had a shot, it just makes no sense for Klaus to join the Beatles from any angle.
If he really believed that he had a shot at joining the Beatles and Paul somehow stood in his way.... then uhhhh what the heck lmao
Leggy「little love of mine」 — 05/09/2023 9:34 AM
This seems very likely, good insight. Makes me wonder if John staying friends with Paul might have rankled Stu as their rivalry increased? "Don't worry Rod everyone else totally hates him here but I only feel sorry for him."
John liked new experiences and getting swept away with things so its not surprising that he got enamored with the Exis. They were arty, new, and offered a fresh POV for him to see the world. Anyone would be intrigued by such a friends group. The fact that they were happy to be dominated by John and enjoyed Stuart (especially since Stu and Astrid hit it off!) probably makes it inevitable that someone would end up on the outside and that someone was Paul.
1960 John especially would be feeling his adolescent insecurities very hard so he'd naturally want the Exis as under his thumb as he could get them. I wonder if Stuart also enjoyed being controlled that way? I don't actually know how independent he was of John compared to Paul. (Tho no one ever matched Paul in sheer tenaciousness when it came to escaping John's gravity well.)
The pills, alcohol, and sleeplessness would naturally exacerbate all this.
Morrigan — 05/09/2023 10:49 AM
Maybe I’m being too judgmental when it comes to Klaus; it’s hard to judge his tone in written form. Maybe he sounded self-deprecating when answering, but I was surprised that 40 years on (at the time), instead of just saying “it’s tantalising to imagine me being part of the Beatles, but nah they were perfect they way they were and I’ve my own life”…he actually still brings up how his bass playing could’ve maybe been better for the band at some point.
To be fair, he also says Beatlemania wouldn’t have happened without Paul (his looks, his professionalism) , and that Klaus himself maybe wouldn’t have had the necessary charisma
Morrigan — 05/09/2023 10:53 AM
Totally agree with this. It was a wild few months; them also being away from home for the first time as well (and in a very strange environment).
So many outsiders have described the bond they had before Hamburg, how Paul seemed to make John come alive etc; they already had a solid foundation. I don’t think anyone could’ve muscled in there permanently
Leggy「little love of mine」 — 05/09/2023 12:29 PM
We don't know much about him so its hard not to give him side eye sometimes lol. Ultimately Klaus seems grateful for what the Beatles did for him and how he got to have a place in history thanks to them. I wouldn't necessarily label him negatively since he seems content with his lot and has gotten to make a lot of great art over the years. He likes his niche.
Otoh its still really weird that he's apparently still maintaining a delusion about being a potential Beatle. IMO it once again says more about his relationship with Paul than anything else. Paul is the bedrock of the band and without him, there are no Beatles. Lots of people resent him for this, even other Beatles. I would bet Klaus, like many, is pulled in by John's charisma, values George as a friend, and resents/resented the fact that he couldn't get closer to them because Paul filled that space. "If I was in his place then I could be with George and John all the time and we'd be even better friends. What's so special about Paul's bass playing anyway? I'm just as good." That's the kind of resentment that sticks with you when you have famous friends i guess.
But it also misses the point and the importance of Paul: Paul's bass playing was creative and innovative. He brought new sounds into the band. He also had the energy to get them over their creative humps to deliver material for new records and consistently hit their deadlines. Paul wasn't just "the bassplayer." He was John's everything, the one who delivered results, and the one who made the records work for the Beatles. If Klaus was really as good as he thinks he is then John would have made him a fixture during the solo years. But John didn't do that because Klaus is no match for Paul's ability to consistently deliver results.
I suspect Klaus knows this or he wouldn't admit to Paul's success like that. But its probably very hard to be close to the Beatles because you would naturally want a piece of it.
Leggy「little love of mine」 — 05/09/2023 12:32 PM
So many outsiders have described the bond they had before Hamburg, how Paul seemed to make John come alive etc; they already had a solid foundation. I don’t think anyone could’ve muscled in there permanently
An extremely vital point and probably the ultimate root of the resentment surrounding Paul during that time (or any other time). No matter what they did or where they took him, John still wanted to return to Paul.
There is something special and unique about Paul that had John loving him deeply and to the exclusion of others. Even back then.
mynamesbetty — 05/09/2023 2:00 PM
I'd just like to add that re: drugs, Paul was wary of the Prellies and usually stuck to one a night, where John was eating them like candy
Paul had already shown reticence towards drugs when he refused to partake of chewing the benzedrine cartridges inside nasal sprays back in Liverpool, so that's another aspect of the "Paul's not as cool and worldly as the rest of us" ganging up on him
Morrigan — 05/09/2023 3:04 PM
And then that of course carried over to Paul not wanting to try acid at first
Leggy「little love of mine」 — 05/09/2023 3:04 PM
Yeah... so Paul was often on the outside that way too
Morrigan — 05/09/2023 3:07 PM
I wonder if John saw that as Paul keeping a part of himself back; of not totally committing so they could share everything together
Leggy「little love of mine」 — 05/09/2023 3:13 PM
That's a big part of it. Tune In says John habitually used Prellies to try to get people to talk to him, he used it as a tool to get people to open up. So Paul dragging his heels and only doing it when he felt like it would be infuriating (and enchanting) to John because Paul was refusing to submit to John's direction and control. Paul could skate on the edges of John's gravity well and refused to get closer until he decided to.
It also may be that John was anxious about doing these things without Paul. He wanted Paul to mirror him very early and Paul's refusal to do so fascinated him especially for those moments where Paul did eventually cave and the mirroring turned out fantastic -- it made the victories sweeter. Pete Shotton said John needed a partner in everything he did, even when he was a little kid, so it was a genuine need in him to want someone like Paul.
Leggy「little love of mine」 — 05/09/2023 3:21 PM
Makes me wonder how palpable John's attraction to Paul must have been -- even if he didn't fully realize it in Hamburg yet.
I fully believe that there is some watershed moment we don't know about for John realizing how deep his attraction to Paul ran.
Morrigan — 05/09/2023 3:33 PM
He said he chose Paul as his partner (in music), but we know it was so much more than that. At some point he realised, ‘this is the one’. If only he’d gotten to write his memoirs…. 😢
BRrraCKets! — 05/09/2023 4:00 PM
I wonder if his attraction scared him a little and that’s why he backed right off in that first Hamburg trip.
He had plenty to distract him.
When Paul was deported, John was left behind. He could easily have stayed and pursued something there and kept near Stuart, but he didnt. He went back to Liverpool. Brooded on it for a while, then pursued Paul to get back with him.
Leggy「little love of mine」 — 05/09/2023 4:06 PM
I never thought of the possibility of him staying behind with Stu but you're right! oh wow
BRrraCKets! — 05/09/2023 4:06 PM
I think that’s when he decided Paul was it for him.
He could have looked at picking up his art again, like Stu did, or music in another band. His heart must have decided on music, but music meant Paul.
Leggy「little love of mine」 — 05/09/2023 4:12 PM
oh my god!!!! :sobface:
Leggy「little love of mine」 — 05/09/2023 4:13 PM
And also the trauma of Paul being deported... Klaus has a drawing of Paul and Pete being shoved into a cop car, I wonder if John was there if it happened like that with Paul and Pete being taken off the street
Like for John that's another loss but instead of Paul abandoning him that's someone taking Paul away from him
And so he goes home later that week.... and he stays shut up in his room for days... and when he emerges he gets George and goes straight to Paul.....
BRrraCKets! — 05/09/2023 4:15 PM
He can’t do it without Paul.
Hahaha in a roundabout way, Paul made John choose between him and Stu, and Paul won!
Leggy「little love of mine」 — 05/09/2023 4:17 PM
After all that mess, John really did have a shot to choose Stuart and do art forever, hang out in Hamburg and never go back. Stuart evaded deportation by living in Astrid's house, John could do the same. But John played a few nights alone and then took all the gear back by himself
and then he chose Paul while he was convalescing in his bedroom....
Morrigan — 05/09/2023 5:10 PM
I do think that was definitely part of it… but I don’t think it would’ve been that easy for him to stay had he wanted to… Stu was different because he’d already started establishing himself there outside of the band (and he had Astrid and her family, who couldn’t be expected to take on John as well).
John had no money. I believe he continued playing with other bands only to fulfil contractual obligations (?). And he said he was depressed after Hamburg, thinking this was maybe as far as music could take them… to seedy bars in a red light district. Coming back to Liverpool, I wonder what his thought process and state of relationship with Paul was like.
Now in 1961, when he again faces a crisis regarding continuing with music, he obviously chooses Paul…even without the music. Even though they were making decent-ish money in Liverpool by then, John was fed up and wanted to run away (at least for a bit).
I know people say he didn’t take Cyn to Paris because she was busy with school and unmarried couples didn’t really travel together, but I think it was more than that. He’d decided it was going to be him and Paul… in any potential endeavour, even if it wasn’t a band. That carries on through to their later ideas of writing a play, a musical together; and just always writing together
That said, I don’t think he actually wanted to stay in Hamburg
Leggy「little love of mine」 — 05/09/2023 5:59 PM
Yeah, John stayed in Hamburg for the contractual stuff. Considering its a port town it would have been easy for him to stay IMO but who knows. I think it does indicate that staying with Stuart didn't cross his mind; if it had and if John had really wanted it, he could have found a way. The fact that he didn't and instinctively went home (to the place where Paul had been forced to go) indicates just how strong Paul's hold on him was, despite John not knowing what he was going to do next.
The depression is just John's pattern I think. He had tall highs and deep lows. John coming back from Hamburg reminds me of reading descriptions of his return home from their tours and how inaccessible he was to Cynthia and Julian because of his profound depression. Hamburg was absolutely similar -- women, booze, pep pills to keep them awake and then it ended traumatically leaving John in a very bleak place. The physical low from coming off all those prellies would be crazy and John was addicted. He may have been going through detox which would destabilize his mental scape. The same thing happened with the tours and the amount of drugs they were doing, particularly the coke, which meant that John crashed after each tour because he stopped inhaling all those drugs.
We can only speculate about his thought process post-Hamburg but John repeated patterns, that was his entire thing. I think looking at the Dakota years could tell us a lot, albeit with the caveat that John hadn't done any "splitting" regarding Paul yet. He probably felt bleak, wondering if there was a point in continuing. He knew there was more pain ahead of him if he continued with the Beatles. John knew they were good and probably realized they were better than their peers but maybe he realized that he might have bungled things with Paul. He's watching the wheels.... Then he ran into George on the street iirc and that's when things solidified for him: he needed music and that meant he needed Paul.
So he takes George with him because he needs the support and doesn't want to appear vulnerable in front of someone he probably knows he wasn't kind to. And Paul holds him at arms length for a while but John is persistent and finally tells Paul that he's not going to settle for being half time anymore, Paul needs to commit to him.
When it comes to Paris and such: Paul, for John, represents renewal and possibility. He renewed after Hamburg in 1960 and sought out Paul for it. He renewed in 1961 and they went on their honeymoon in Paris. In 1980, John was preparing to record with Paul and was actively leaving Yoko.
John's mental aesthetic regarding Paul always contained admiration (and sometimes resentment) for Paul's endless energy and his ability to createcreatecreate. That's an energy that John relied on. He used it emotionally as well as musically.
mynamesbetty — 05/09/2023 7:57 PM
and on the flip side we have John unfairly blaming Paul for John's inability to write by accusing Paul of bouncing along and writing like a fiend without thinking about how John was feeling, in the "I was going through murder" period
...and then, much later, John hears "Coming Up" on the radio and something long dormant sparks up inside him
VeggieRavioli — 05/09/2023 9:33 PM
I'm soo late to this conversation but I love it!
I wanna add my favourite Hamburg era tidbit that's hidden away in a footnote in Tune In, because I think it's really interesting to compare the aftermath of the 1960 first Hamburg trip with the 1961 Hamburg trip. TL;DR Paris was not the only time John and Paul ran away holidayed together in 1961
we all know John and Paul went to visit Betty and Mike in Caversham in April 1960, but Paul has stated multiple times that they took two trips to visit his cousin, the second one travelling down to Ryde on the Isle of Wight. But when did they take this trip? It's referenced in MYFN but no timeframe is given.
Mark Lewisohn proposes that the only obvious window is July 1961, directly after they arrived home from Hamburg - they had nine days off before they were back onstage in Liverpool on July 13. You'd think they would have spent this time kicking back at home after three months away, catching up w/ family and friends.......... but if that were the case, Lewisohn says, why didn't they attend Ringo's massive 21st birthday bash on July 8th?? All the biggest bands in Liverpool were invited, but the Beatles were conspicuously absent.
so if Lewisohn's hunch is correct and they swanned off to Ryde right after they just dragged their exhausted asses back from Hamburg, the implications of that are 👀 !!! bc that means Paul's behaviour towards John was sooo markedly different compared to the previous trip. Paul resigned himself to a shitty factory job in 1960, John had to win Paul back and prove himself to him, the band's future was in limbo..... but HERE, to me it's like 1961 Paul is staking his claim. By immediately taking John on a quick holiday to Ryde, he's actively preventing another post-Hamburg comedown and securing them some 1-on-1 time to re-cement their partnership
especially considering that Paul's tension with Stuart was arguably at an all-time high in 1961 -- they had their fight near the end of that trip, Dot and Cynthia came to visit but John & Cyn actually spent more time with Astrid & Stuart than with Paul..... I can just so see Paul being like :paulbuthehasagun: oh you like the beach John? you went to the beach with stuart? Come to this picturesque coastal town with me right the fuck now you're gonna love it
Leggy「little love of mine」 — 05/09/2023 9:46 PM
Veggie I love this connection. you're brilliant
mynamesbetty — 05/09/2023 9:47 PM
get your man Paul!!
interesting that Paul made the first move here
Leggy「little love of mine」 — 05/09/2023 9:48 PM
so if Lewisohn's hunch is correct and they swanned off to Ryde right after they just dragged their exhausted asses back from Hamburg, the implications of that are 👀 !!! bc that means Paul's behaviour towards John was sooo markedly different compared to the previous trip.
feral for this
YES.... after all that fuss in Hamburg they came back and Paul pushed John up against a wall and said "you're coming with me now" and john just went "o-okay"
Paul resigned himself to a shitty factory job in 1960, John had to win Paul back and prove himself to him, the band's future was in limbo..... but HERE, to me it's like 1961 Paul is staking his claim. By immediately taking John on a quick holiday to Ryde, he's actively preventing another post-Hamburg comedown and securing them some 1-on-1 time to re-cement their partnership
yes!!! he learned from 1960, he didn't give John a chance to get down in the dumps! he said "let's go on an adventure John!" and he just took him
reminding John that this isn't like last time. in short Paul broke the pattern
I can just so see Paul being like :paulbuthehasagun: oh you like the beach John? you went to the beach with stuart? Come to this picturesque coastal town with me right the fuck now you're gonna love it
the jealousy angle at work here. oh my god
mynamesbetty — 05/09/2023 9:51 PM
as long as they keep moving John can't sink into a funk
which may have further implications re: Paul's work ethic
VeggieRavioli — 05/09/2023 9:51 PM
aieeee I'm obsessed w/ it
Leggy「little love of mine」 — 05/09/2023 9:51 PM
Veggie you're a genius
Leggy「little love of mine」 — 05/09/2023 9:52 PM
john's in a depression? let's do something and distract him from it...
1960? on the rocks, worry and frustration. 1961? "dis mine dis MINE"
VeggieRavioli — 05/09/2023 9:54 PM
while they seemed to make a lot of progress in Hamburg RE: trading up to better and better clubs, it really stood out to me in Tune In that after their 2nd trip they just returned to the same old in Liverpool, again - same circuit of halls and clubs, no one on their level, no upward momentum until Brian in November. So I love how John and Paul dealt with this by repeatedly skipping out on commitments when they got bored and goin on trips together
Leggy「little love of mine」 — 05/09/2023 9:54 PM
yeah! they decided it wasn't worth their time so they bolted
and they were right too lmao
they wanted to be together instead of playing the same circuit over and over...
VeggieRavioli — 05/09/2023 9:56 PM
and then Stuart's writing letters like "they quit the band and went to Paris to play together? I don't believe it..."
Paul's like "you'd bETTER BELIEVE IT BUDDY"
Morrigan — 05/09/2023 9:58 PM
Wasn’t it said that Ticket to Ride was inspired by Ryde?
VeggieRavioli — 05/09/2023 9:59 PM
yes fs, I think Paul restates this in The Lyrics again too? don't have it in front of me, but yes
VeggieRavioli — 05/09/2023 9:58 PM
Oh I thought we’d shared that quote here already but no it’s legit
Leggy「little love of mine」 — 05/09/2023 10:00 PM
this is the possessive Paul we need
mynamesbetty — 05/09/2023 10:10 PM
Paul stomps in like "he's my soulmate, get your own!" and whisks John off on a road trip
Apple_Scruff — 05/09/2023 10:11 PM
Stuart literally having his own soulmate Astrid the whole time: confused
Morrigan — 05/09/2023 10:44 PM
People have to had seen the special connection between them…John wasn’t going on trips to Ryde or Paris or Caversham with just George
louiselux — 05/10/2023 3:25 AM
So fascinating and such great detective work! I wonder too if Paul thought he might be detoxing John, or whether they both had that in mind? Sun, sea, fresh air, no amphetamines etc, just wholesome British beer lol.
louiselux — 05/10/2023 7:06 AM
There's just something so innocent about Paul taking him on a seaside holiday, compared to what they had just been doing in Hamburg, it's so sweetly unsophisticated.
I've been to Ryde. The whole of the Isle of Wight, where Ryde is the main town, is just off mainland UK and it feels stuck about 30 years in the past, so Ryde in the early 60s might've felt very old fashioned indeed.
Reposted from the McLennon Server on the request of one of my friends. This is an essay I wrote up tonight regarding my interpretation of Paul McCartney’s “However Absurd.”
This builds off a concept that the server started discussing sometime in March 2022 -- the idea that Paul considered himself John’s domestic partner and that this was a desire or interpretation Paul had about their relationship in light of his various interviews where he said he wanted to take care of John. Paul being who he is, he could only imagine this in the context of touring as the Beatles which was safe for them because they were had privacy in hotels and the context of touring meant no one examined that John and Paul were essentially living together, along with George and Ringo. This dynamic would be special for Paul as he finally got to take care of John the way he always wanted but only in the context of being a part of The Beatles.
Leggy Maddingway — Today at 9:04 PM
I'm kind of interpreting the above song with this lens:
things changed for John and Paul after John was living with him part time in Cavendish. The Scruffs noted that they often went into work together, John has referred to that year as "domestic," Paul has said since the 90s that he wished he could take care of John and that he basically viewed John as helpless, often referring to him in infantile terms.
We also know from an interview survey (the gamer girl bathwater one that I loled about a few moons ago) that Paul was interested in buying a farm out in the country as early as 1965.
My personal belief re: India is not so much that Paul rejected John when John came on to him, but that John asked Paul for a full blown relationship, as in living together, John divorcing Cynthia (which was already in the works) and being a genuine couple. He'd had a taste of this when he lived with Paul at Cavendish during 1967 before the India retreat. He wanted that full time and was desperate for a change. (Notably at this point he was already writing letters to Yoko Ono. He was looking for an offramp.) But Paul always wants things done a particular way -- I'm not even sure if homosexuality had been decriminalized at that point in the year, but it was still a very dangerous time to be gay even if you're a Beatle -- maybe especially if you're a Beatle since cops were already crawling up your ass trying to arrest you, they had already had conflicts with the police who were trying to bust them for drugs.
So with all that in mind, I posit that Paul said "no" and that he may have further insulted John by offering a really awful alternative -- Paul gets married and has a family while keeping John as the secret lover no one knows about. That would have been incredibly disrespectful to John regardless of circumstances so in my mind, a scenario like this is what would have triggered John into crawling to Yoko and subsequently blowing his life up. I simply don't believe that a "not right now" or a freak out over first-time sex would cause the kind of mental break we saw on John's end. However a firm backhand of disrespect and selfishness from Paul McCartney would.
The thing is, I also believe that Paul wanted to take care of John from a very early moment, maybe even from the moment he met John. This is primarily driven by the story about Here There Everywhere that Paul has told -- that he drove out to John's house to write, that John wasn't awake or wasn't dressed, and Paul hung out by the pool and managed to assemble Here There Everywhere in the time it took for John to at least wash his face and put on a clean pair of pants.
I think Paul must have gone up there, crept into the house, and woke John up from his depression sleep and John told him to fuck off and leave him alone, hence Paul's comments about John not being dressed and ready for the day. But Paul knew what John really meant so he just noodled around the pool with his guitar while John dragged himself out of bed.
Paul has mentioned how John was a tender hearted person and that he wanted to take care of John, and that's the anecdote that tells me he felt that way from the start.
"Here, There and Everywhere" is so obviously about John, I don’t get the people who try to insist that it isn’t and that it’s not related to them at all. But to me anyway it feels so clearly inspired by what's going on in front of Paul's face -- he's with John, John is sick and grumpy but Paul doesn't care: "But to love him is to need him everywhere." IDK, something about the song and the circumstances [that it was written under] shows so much tenderness and even understanding on Paul's part, John wasn't dressed for the day because he was depressed and exhausted and I think he yelled at Paul after Paul drove all the way to Kenwood just to be with John, but the fact that Paul wrote that song anyway just shows me that he knew better than to hold that outburst against John. He wanted John with him and since it sounds like Cynthia and Julian were gone for the day, he went there because he wanted to have John all to himself.
And then we get the quote that Veggie just pulled:
“Yeah yeah, it’s all very well, Paul,” muttered John. “Just because your Dad played in some old time music hall in the thirties doesn’t mean we should go on stage wearing white coats. People will think we’re a bunch of fairies.”
“Wait a minute, John, I’m burning the toast.” Paul, clattering about in the kitchen, seemed oblivious to John’s emphatic statement. He then came out of the kitchen with a pile of buttered toast on a large plate for the ravenous horde waiting.
“What did you say? I couldn’t hear you properly; oh, the white coats, is that what you’re on about? What’s your problem with that? Look John, it’s about time we started smartening up our image because we can’t go on looking like a gang of ruffians just dragged off the streets,” retorted Paul. “We must look professional – we’re on the stage, in the public eye, and appearances are important. If we start looking the part then perhaps you may even be able to get your chords right.”
Paul said this last point in a jovial manner, not wishing to rouse John’s temper, as he knew even after short acquaintance with John that he could soon ‘fly off the handle’ if provoked. John seemed unperturbed by the insinuation that Paul was making about his professionalism (or lack of it).
There was a silence for a couple of minutes as we all munched on our buttered toast.
“Yeah okay – but white coats? I can’t see myself in one of those. Anyway, where would we get them from?”
“Never mind that – Nigel will sort that out. Look, it will be you and me up front from now on as main guitarists and vocalists so it’ll look good, the both of us wearing the same gear. It will be white coats, white shirts and black bow ties – the rest of the group can wear white shirts and black bow ties..."
“Okay, we’ll all be in white then – it’s agreed,” said Paul. John then started up with a song that had recently been popularised: “A white sport coat and a pink carnation, I’m getting dressed up for a dance.” With that John did a little dance around the room. The Quarrymen Committee had arrived at another major decision without too much rancour.
I know this is mostly Paul being a decent host to a bunch of teenage boys but I also think that this is the earliest example we have of Paul already managing John/taking care of him domestically.
So when I see stuff like this:
Ears twitch, like a dog,
Breaking eggs in a dish.
Do not mock me when I say
This is not a lie.
Happy dogs, eggs breaking into dishes, these images are things that I see in a lot of material today that's about romanticizing domesticity. Cottagecore/grandmacore and the like.
"Do not mock me when I say this is not a lie" <- for me this feels like a reference to a fight that they might have had about the sincerity of Paul's feelings. After the India retreat we know that Paul hardcore self destructed (I think seeing John glom on to Yoko so hard was a big shock and he may have realized what he had done). It could have easily lead to a fight anywhere between 1967 to 1980 about whether Paul meant it or not. Paul wasn't deliberate about his word choice, this was supposed to be a nonsense song but that means he was word associating so who else would he be talking about associating domesticity::mockery of him finally being sincere?
There's a lot of ground muttering about Paul lying to John about his feelings or just not articulating them and I think that this is true up to a point but I also flat out don't believe that Paul didn't take the opportunity at some point to finally spit out what he really felt. But it would be extremely on brand for John to mock him for it, regardless of whether he believed it or not.
But Paul has something to feel guilty about -- or he believes he does. "I didn't say what I thought in exactly the right way and if I had then John would still be here." He couldn't say the words. They didn't get his feelings through. So he's still talking to John and trying to make him understand.
Something special between us,
When we made love the game was over.
I couldn't say the words,
Words wouldn't get my feelings through,
So I keep talking to you...
I think for someone like Paul McCartney, the idea that two men could live openly together was absurd. And to be fair there was a lot of reality in that thought -- he and John were being targeted by the police, a sodomy charge would be more than enough to put them both away and ruin their careers.
But Paul wanted it. He wanted it was early as 1957. He wanted it when he wrote "Here There Everywhere." He admitted this in the 1990s when he was being questioned about John Lennon. However absurd it may seem, he did in fact want to be a couple with John and just be able to fuck off somewhere with dogs that have twitching ears and you can break an egg into a dish. That's probably what made the rejection so horrific -- not because he rejected John on a reasonable basis but because he thought the idea was too absurd to follow through with despite the fact that he wanted it.
However absurd, however absurd... It may seem.
However absurd, however absurd... It may seem.
"Custom made dinosaurs" <- this is just my personal interpretation but when I read this I immediately imagined dinosaur costumes for kids. We have photos of Paul and Linda dressing their family up for Halloween and Paul going full PTA mom by carving pumpkins. Again, the full life he wanted: children and John and pastoral peace.
But it's too late now for a change, John is dead and Paul will never get him back. He's supposed to be the guy with everything but he's lost or estranged from everyone he's ever loved except for Richard Starkey which is...crushing.
Custom made dinosaurs,
Too late now, for a change.
Everything is under the sun,
But nothing is for keeps...
This is not a nonsense song. It may not have been deliberate but this is not nonsense.
mynamesbetty — Today at 9:20 PM
Read a quote on Tumblr that was basically "John used his feelings to make music and Paul used music to access his feelings"
That's what is happening here
VeggieRavioli — Today at 9:26 PM
something something the band and touring as a means to play house something something
Leggy Maddingway — Today at 9:27 PM
PRECISELY
because they were in private, their women weren't there, Paul tried to get John to tour with him again 1969, that was the context where they could live together openly and Paul could care for John like he always wanted and no one would question it and I just
for fuck's sake Paul hemmed John's trousers in Paris
he wanted to be John's partner, he wanted to live with him, he wanted to be a couple. He did those couple things. He made John toast, he mended John's clothes, he looked after the packing, I just feel insane when I look at this stuff and it's adding up to all this fucking gay shit.
