The difference between Cronus and Meenah vis-à-vis predation is that Meenah is afforded a lot of nuance in her moral failings, and Cronus is not. Meenah also has far more to her character than her moral failings. Cronus does not. This makes it easier and more understandable to be a fan of Meenah despite her grooming of (Vriska) being a major arc than it is Cronus, who is given virtually zero traits or depth outside of being an awful person. Nuance is not the function of Cronus’s character. The function of his character is to be the Worst Character in Homestuck.
Cronus’s entire character is that he is an awful, irredeemable person, point blank period, there is no fixing him, there is no making him sympathetic, there is no nuance here, don’t even fucking try. Meenah’s character is that she is a bad person, and here’s how she ended up this way. She is afforded explanation. She is afforded nuance. She’s given some degree of complexity.
Cronus is an abuser, knows full well that he’s an abuser, labels his actions as abuse, and does not care, because he cares for nothing other than himself, his ability to get off, and his ego. Meenah is an abuser, is aware but in denial of this, cares quite a lot about it, but continues anyway because she thinks her being an abuser is an inevitability that she must accept because of her caste.
There’s more intrigue in there. Meenah also played far more of an active role in her session and in the story, which makes her far easier to like and care about despite her being not a good person. Cronus is there for five seconds, seemingly didn’t do anything interesting in his session other than become a rapist because a clown told him he isn’t Harry Potter, and genuinely just doesn’t have any good reason for being the way he is. There’s legitimately just more substance to Meenah’s character. It’s not even a competition. The only reason some people act like it is a competition is because they’re stupid and misogynistic.
I saw a lot of people recently saying they purposely skipped the entire Openbound sequence because of Hussie's self-insert alongside like Meenah being interested in Karkat and characters like Meulin encouraging it
but that like doesn't make sense to me, because if they're going about Homestuck by skipping all the potentially uncomfortable portions, then how are they going about reading the comic in the first place?
I think my favorite part of this is how those are, frankly, pussy-ass reasons to skip it. Hussie's Author Avatar sucks on purpose, always, and Meenah is textually in the wrong there. She has a very poor grasp of consequences and the concept of what is right and wrong, it's a big part of her character. It's why her whole relationship with (Vriska) exists, which is also textually immoral, is handled and addressed as such, and paints Meenah as being predatory, intentionally or not, for chasing after someone so much younger than her who is, just... So vulnerable, mentally.
Honestly, if they're skipping over the entirety of the Openbounds just for Meenah's weird obsession with Karkat, then did they skip over her relationship with (Vriska), too? Because that was very solid, fascinating characterization for both of those characters. And, again, paints her as creepy for doing it, because... She is. And it was a part of the "main comic", so to speak. What did they do about that? Is that fine? Did they skip all of those pages, no matter what? What's the limit here? Is this specifically an aversion to the concept of abuse in a relationship, period? Did they skip any page circling the relationship between Vriska and Tavros, or Gamzee and Terezi? Is it specifically an aversion to abusive and predatory age gaps? Did they skip all of Doc Scratch's pages and interactions with all of the girls? Is it specifically an aversion to an adult sexually abusing a minor? So, did they skip Dave Strider's entire intro, which is thickly soaked in the fact that he's getting abused, including sexually, by his 30+ year old brother?
Everyone has a right to be uncomfortable about anything, but the author intent is clear here- Meenah is in the wrong, and anyone supporting her actions is also wrong. This kind of makes criticizing the inclusion of her actions into the storyline... Well, bullshit, frankly. Not liking the inclusion of abuse because abuse as a baseline makes you uncomfortable is not a criticism, it is a statement of preference, and with that I have to gesture towards the entire rest of the comic, because Homestuck is full of that very same kind of abuse, and it is bad and graphic every time. Criticism of the inclusion of abuse within a storyline has to be about the handling and execution of that abuse within the confines of the plot, and in this case, and all other cases, I think Meenah's abusive tendencies are outlined pretty clearly as being a bad thing. If you read her actions as an endorsement of being a violent, selfish, predatory bully with basically no concept of morality or consequences, you either are illiterate, didn't actually read any one of the pages she was in and got your opinion from someone else, or you are reading in bad faith on purpose. She is literally a version of Her Imperious Condescension, which is, like, one of the main fucking villains of the comic.
Hussie's Avatar is also wrong, and you should hate him. That is the point of Hussie's Avatar. His role in the story is being annoying, weird, and wrong. Hussie's Avatar is not actually very reflective of Hussie as a person. Hussie doesn't like The Avatar. This is pretty obvious if you pay attention to him for five seconds.
So... These aren't instances of the Openbounds being written badly, they're instances of the readers being unwilling to engage with something that could even just potentially be uncomfortable despite that same thing permeating throughout the rest of the damn webcomic and also getting their opinions from other people, uncritically. Sigh.
Homestuck being full of weird uncomfortable plot beats is... Literally fine. It's normal, it's handled pretty decently as a baseline, and phenomenally at other times. It's made for adult people who can think critically about these things. A lot of those uncomfortable aspects were... You know... Intentional? There's a point to Meenah creeping on people younger than her, and it's a deliberate one. Skipping the Openbounds for it is stupid horseshit. Doc Scratch already did that. Bro Strider did that to Dave and people love that guy. I ask gently for people to grow a spine. Think for yourself. Read something yourself, unbiased, before casting judgment. Good lord.
Hello, I really like your analysis, especially of the dancestors but there's one part I don't quite get and would apreciate if you could ellaborate on
It's the part about how it's fucked up for them to be romantically involved with the beta trolls, because in the text, iirc, it does'nt seem like it is. They are treated like normal dumb teenagers, not that different than when they died as such, and I know it is canonically possible to go through character development after death, after all, dead Vriska did, but I can't remember the comic indicating that the dancestors did?
They still feel like teenagers and the comic doesn't seem to ever hint at abuse by virtue of their maturity, or include it as a theme or something. To me, that they spent whatever senseless amount of time dead thinking about stuff and never matured out of being teenagers just seemed like the sort of kind of dumb thing you're supposed to suspend your disbelief on for the juicy tumblr parody jokes and ignore, like the comic (imo) seemed to be doing.
Again, i'd love to read what you have to say on this and I hope to not be misremsmbering anything.
Thank you! I really appreciate it. I'm happy to explain.
1.) They are called the Alpha Trolls. Not the Dancestors. "Dancestor" refers to a relation that every single character group has with one another - it means "Person who is simultaneously your Descendant and Ancestor by way of a Scratch", and was actually originally coined by Porrim to describe the Beta Trolls.
The Beta Trolls are the Alpha Trolls's Dancestors. The Alpha Trolls are the Beta Trolls's Dancestors, also. The Beta Kids are the Alpha Kids's Dancestors as well, and vice versa.
"Alpha Troll" is more accurate and more specific. They're even called this directly within the text, by themselves even. Best to just use that label instead.
2.) The Beta Trolls are 13 years old. The Alpha Trolls are 19 years old. That is a middle schooler and a college student. That is the power imbalance. That is what is wrong here.
This also meets the DSM-5's definition of Pedophilia. Those children are 6 full years younger than they are, they should be completely off the table. This is not an excusable cultural difference, or something you are supposed to ignore, it is framed within the comic as being fucking gross. Meenah's relationship with (Vriska), who was 13, should have already clued you into that. Hell, the age disparity is called directly into focus as being fucked up by Meenah herself. More than once, actually.
NOTE: Yes, I know that 7.5 Sweeps translates to 16 Years - though, more accurately, she'd be 15 Years, since she hasn't even reached 7.5 Sweeps yet. (Vriska) and the Vriska in this picture are two different characters. (Vriska) is the Pre-Retcon Vriska, who died at 6 Sweeps, or 13 Years. Likewise, most of the characters targeted by the 3 offending Alpha Trolls were also people who died at 13 Years - Aradiabot (Rufioh), Tavros (Cronus), and Eridan (Cronus again - cool Incest bro!).
Child Predation is a running theme in Homestuck. The foul conduct of the Alpha Trolls exhibit towards some of the Beta Trolls - Cronus, Meenah, and Rufioh in particular having preyed on 3, 2, and 1 minor(s) respectively and specifically - is simply another follow up on that.
We see it with Bro Strider, who abused and neglected Dave so badly that Dave was constantly exposed to and involved in Fetish Pornography, we see it in Doc Scratch, who is directly called out as having a thing for young girls several times and was literally keeping a young girl as a slave, we see it in the Alpha Trolls. It is everywhere. It isn't meant to be looked away from for the sake of memes. The fact that those college age adults are creeping on literal middle schoolers is thematically relevant, and very in your face.
So, like, yes, the Alpha Trolls are still teenagers, but these are the oldest possible teenagers targeting the youngest possible teenagers. Again, this is College Students creeping on Middle Schoolers, and the text wants you to think this is disgusting. Because it is.
"Meenah dated a sixteen-year-old" Yeah no it's worse than that. It's so much worse than that. (Vriska) is physically AND mentally thirteen years old. THIRTEEN. And dating a NINETEEN-YEAR-OLD. (All the ghosts are implied to not have aged mentally since their death.) Even if you think that the ghosts have aged mentally, they start dating (at least in the comic's chronology) two years after (Vriska)'s death, which means she would have been FIFTEEN. Dating a NINETEEN-YEAR-OLD.
Meenah, a fully-grown adult troll, having definitively reached the age of majority, is dating the Alternian AND Beforan equivalent to a thirteen-year-old.
Not to mention that Meenah expresses romantic interest in a fifteen-year-old Karkat.
It is SO much worse than just "Meenah dated a sixteen-year-old". She dated a thirteen-year-old. There is a six-year age gap between Meenah and (Vriska). SIX. YEARS. And they're both TEENAGERS. BARELY even teenagers (on both ends of the scale).
I think it's weird that people would make an argument that "the ghosts have aged mentally" when, like... The Alpha Trolls haven't. That's kind of the point. They're still stuck in vicious cycles of teenage drama and brainrot. And it's verging way too close to the logic of "She's mature for her age" employed by pedophiles and the "Thousand-Year-Old Loli" trope, also employed by pedophiles.
It's also weird because (Vriska) isn't the one that says she's 16.
That's regular Vriska.
It's not unlikely that Meenah knew how old (Vriska) was. I get this info based on the fact that she says that Vriska's age of 16 is "a little more respectable", presumably than... You know, (Vriska). Who would be 13.
Let's not forget she had a weird thing with Karkat. Also 13.
She's a sleazy little bastard and she's aware of it to an extent.
At the end of the day, blaming (Vriska) or even Vriska for Meenah's behavior is fucking ridiculous. The former especially, because frankly, what the fuck. That is a 13 year old grooming victim. Yeah, Meenah was unhappy with the relationship and felt bad about it, but she was still the one that... Did the grooming.
I'd like to know your opinion on Meenah, because of how mixed the general opinion of her is and because of your interpretation of the dancestors, I wanna hear your thoughts on her
I like her. I need some people to stop acting like she's butch and also for everyone to realize she was raised with literally zero people or Lusii to ever parent her or teach her what's right from wrong.
Yes, she's done a whole lot of bad things. Yes, she's a generally fucked up person. But Meenah explicitly grew up having never been taught the meaning of consequences, or most other social lessons, because she did not have a Lusus and it was illegal to cull her. It was illegal to tell her no, and that what she was doing was wrong. The best she had was a tyrannical adult version of herself to idolize.
She's a very childish young girl who never got taught where to draw the line, what's okay and what isn't, when and where to say no or take no for an answer. It's genuinely tragic, the way she got fucked up by her upbringing.
What's interesting is that it's not even like she can't feel the consequences. Genuinely hurting people emotionally does seem to get under her skin- we can see that pretty clearly in the (Vriska) breakup situation.
She's complicated. I don't think she completely lacks morals- especially not in the way I've seen some talk about her- just that she was never truly taught them.
…I swear to God, why have like half the Beforan players tried to bone someone significantly younger than them??? Probably because the author’s a creep who got a kick out of it, but still, between what was just discussed with Rufioh, Aranea trying to hit on Jake, Cronus trying to bone his dancestor (jesus fuck) and Meenah dating a physically 13-year-old Vriska… that’s a THIRD of the dancestors? And those are just the four I’m aware of, I would be very disappointed but not at all surprised if there was a fifth.
Honestly, adults having inappropriate relationships with children is just a heavily recurring theme in Homestuck... It's not really all that surprising when you take a step back. Doc Scratch, Hussie's own self insert, Bro Strider... They're all much older than the Alpha Trolls are, and are creepy towards the Betas in some way.
Further discussion going under the cut.
Content Warning: Discussion of Sexual Assault, Harassment, and Pedophilia.
... Man, I'm having to write about this topic a lot lately, aren't I? This isn't even close to the only ask left in my inbox about something adjacent to this.
It's kind of... Flattering, in the weirdest way possible? I don't know, I'm often approached for my opinions on some of the much more serious and dark aspects of Homestuck. Things that people don't really know, or talk about, or address- like the racism issues, Dave's CSA, et cetera. It's not really prestigious, I don't think, but it does require a level of trust in maturity and literacy. I appreciate it.
Anyways, this is mostly going to be me adding to and even debunking your ask here. I think this subject both deserves and requires specificity. It's an extremely emotionally charged topic, so peoples imaginations tend to get a little... Carried away, when they don't know the full extent to what's happening. Considering how it's not easy to term search things said by most of the Alpha Trolls, and some people really just do not want to/cannot interact with things relating to Child Harm and Abuse... There's bound to be both a lack of information and an excess of misinformation. It's understandable, but... Deeply annoying for me in particular. Lol.
Let's do this.
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The inclusion of Rufioh in this is both correct and based on some of my own posting on the matter. Rufioh was hitting on Aradiabot, who is 13, because she reminded him of Damara... Specifically remarking upon how she's "just like the real thing". Charming...
Here's where I'm going to supply a debunk: Aranea did not try to hit on Jake, and he is not significantly younger than her. That's a pretty ugly misconception. She's 19, and he is 16. She had zero romantic or sexual feelings towards Jake. Yes, she tried to kiss him once... Because she knew that he was attracted to her and assumed he'd appreciate her making a move on him.
This was part of her little scheme to make him Hope-splode. She never did actually kiss him, and there was genuinely no consent violations involved in the situation- he told her to stop before she could, and she did. It was just a misunderstanding. It happens.
If you're still put off by that age gap, that's fair and entirely respectable, but that's not "significantly younger", and the situation wasn't really objectively creepy.
... Cronus is... Fucking gross. His whole gimmick is that he is "The Worst Character in Homestuck", and boy does he succeed at it. He won that title. Earned it. Absolutely flying colors.
He tried to "get with" Karkat, Tavros, and Eridan. By which I mean he stalked Karkat all the way to his house and then tried to break into it, got really handsy with Tavros in the middle of a crowd, and... Sexually assaulted Eridan- his own flesh and blood!- also in the middle of a crowd. All of these kids are 13 years old, and his main character trait is "Sexual Assault + Harassment". No one's free. Not even literal children!
Cronus counts as a full-blown Pedophile, by the way!! There's your fun fact for the day.
Then there's Meenah, who had her whole thing with (Vriska), who was 13. Not just physically, but mentally, too. She was just 13. That was a whole arc, so it doesn't really need much elaborating upon, I hope.
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That's... Just about it, I think? That's all I remember, anyway, as far as the Alpha Troll Age Gap Weirdness goes. So... Only 3 of them are really problems in that respect, which is 1/4th of the cast. Still an upsetting amount, but not... As bad as 1/3rd, as far as optics goes.
In full honesty, it's kind of funny to me how the Alpha Trolls who have overtly sexual theming are... Pretty normal about kids. Damara's nice to them and nobody else, we've got zero reason to suspect Mituna of anything, and Porrim's just chilling. It's accurate, if anything.
Hopefully this has been fun and/or informative. Have a lovely day.
my thought today is that damara <3< meenah is bad. and a fundamental misunderstanding of meenah, damara, their current relationship with each other, and their past.
Jesus, I’ve never heard of anyone shipping Meenah <3< Damara. That’s… Oof.
Yeah, pretty sure there’s no romantic intentions behind how either of them feel about each other. Like, at all. Sometimes things aren’t able to be labeled as “Unhealthy Black Romantic Tension.” Sometimes there’s a bitterness in a dynamic that’s not appropriate to label as a Kismesis. Sometimes people just hate each other. Sometimes it’s even justified to the point where making it romantic can just be kind of… Queasy.
Damara is right for resenting Meenah- Meenah did make it her life’s goal to ruin every square inch of Damara’s life, intentionally turning that poor girl into a massive public target for her own public abuse for literally no good reason. Sure, it was under the guise of “riling everyone in the session up” because she thought that “hostility would make the team work harder,” but it backfired so hard that it resulted in not only Meenah’s brutal murder, but also their status of being trapped in absolute purgatory for the rest of eternity.
There isn’t any romance behind it. Meenah just sucks as a person, and the way she treated her resulted in Damara completely mentally shattering. She ruined her life, no strings attached, no attraction, nothing. Just abuse for the sake of abuse.
Poor Damara was just a punching bag to her, and she was so nice and meek that she couldn’t do anything about it until it got so bad that she physically couldn’t take it anymore. From the way it got described in the OpenBounds, I’m not even sure if Meenah fully saw Damara as a person…
On the subject of the Alpha Trolls' brain rot: Don't forget Meenah's not even BEEN with everyone all that time. Meaning she has an isolated decade to let everything kinda fester.
Yeah, Meenah’s a lot more Asocial than people realize. If given the chance, she will fuck off into isolation. She genuinely just seems to prefer to be on her own. She definitely has those “Mean Extroverted Popular Girl” vibes, but… Only the “Mean” and “Girl” parts of that statement are accurate, lol.
Extended periods of hardcore isolation definitely isn’t good for your head. Trolls are a Eusocial Species- they need to be in the company of others every now and then in order to stay healthy… And it’s very clear that Meenah just… Wasn’t. :/
