#nokeans

[lokeanwelcomingcommittee]

Hello, I have a question, the situation is that a friend is doubting whether or not it is Loki to whom she has been giving offerings and interacting with her, we are investigating about that and she contacts a group, tells her experience with Loki (it is paternal , sweet but sometimes complicated) and they tell him that he is not Loki, but the 'Wiccan Loki' because 'Norse Loki' does not care that you are good to yourself or that he does not even care about you. when she told me that I was like, 'what the hell?' I really laughed a lot, but I'm confused, why can they say that there is a 'Wiccan Loki' or a 'Norse Loki'? They despise our experience or even say that we are wrong and idiotic in 'a mannered way' (yes we, because we are learning together), really, are there terms like that? 'Norse Loki' or 'Wiccan Loki' I think is something strange.

There are some Heathens that don’t believe that personal relationships with the gods are typical or possible, either because they don’t believe in personal gods, or because they believe the gods in general have more important things to do than interact with individual humans on a daily basis.

And to be clear, these beliefs, on their own, do not harm anyone and are perfectly valid. We can’t even say they contradict tradition, since we have no way of knowing what the average historical heathen believed about the nature of divinity.

However, it definitely wasn’t cool of them to be rude or insulting. Some Heathens do use “Wiccan” as a perjorative to dismiss beliefs they don’t agree with, even in cases where Wicca probably isn’t the source of the theological concept they’re criticizing. Realistically, if belief in personal gods is a new thing in Heathenry, it got here primarily through Protestant Christianity rather than Wicca. 

Alternatively, some Heathens treat Loki as the equivalent of Christian Satan, a force of malice and frith-breaking rather than a morally complex Trickster figure. This is especially common in North America, where, for example, the Troth had a Loki ban for a long time. Because Loki is queer and arguably multiracial, groups who are racist and/or anti-LGBT disdain him for those reasons. If you ran into some of these people (jokingly called “nokeans”), then they were calling you a Wiccan with the implication that no “real” Heathen would worship Loki as a beneficial being. Obviously, that’s not true, and many Heathens, including the vast majority of European Heathens have no issue with Loki veneration.

Still, as a Lokean, it’s a common enough thing that it’s generally a good idea to vet groups before you out yourself as a Lokean, particularly if you’re in North America and/or are planning to meet in person. The Venn diagram between Heathens who are anti-Loki and Heathens who are actual neonazis has a whole lot of overlap.

- Mod E

[lokeanwelcomingcommittee]

What is a Nokean? I’ve never heard the term before.

Nokeans are people who are against the worship of Loki. It’s a portmanteau of “no” and “Lokean.” People usually don’t self identify as “nokean” even if they are vocally opposed to the existence of Lokeans; it’s just a humorous label applied to them by the Lokean community.

- Mod E

[lokeanwelcomingcommittee]

Hello! I've been trying to find the god and goddess that I can best work with, and I think I found that in Loki and Sigyn. I'm a bit worried though since my dad(nordic and well versed in Their stories) said (direct qoute here) "He's an asshole in every incarnation" I don't completely believe him, but now I'm confused. Should I still go down this route?

The problem with saying anything definitively about the Norse gods is that… we actually don’t know much about them. How they were originally perceived by those who worshiped them. By the time anything was written down, most notably by Snorri Sturluson, and then by others, Christianity had a pretty firm grip on the region, and the majority of people who could read and write were Christian clergy – which, as you might imagine, had something of an impact on the way that stories were told and set down for posterity.

We have little to nothing written by the people who actually practiced the religion, and so we have to make our own guesses based on other polytheistic religions and spiritualities in the region and Christianity’s impact on those.

As far as we can tell, the ancient Norse didn’t perceive the world according to the Christian good/evil dichotomy. Loki, who is depicted in the Eddas as a sort of Lucifer figure – the evil nemesis of Odin who Does Bad Things And Must Be Punished – is far more likely to have been a force of change, the manifestation of the chaos of the universe. Something to be respected and perhaps feared, surely, but not something inherently evil. Something, in fact, that is necessary to prevent stagnation at the personal, societal, and even cosmic level.

Additionally, Loki occupies a liminal space between chaos and order; both Jotunn (a primordial spirit of untamed nature) and, as Odin’s blood brother, an honorary god (representative of humanity and the structure humans give to nature). The idea that one must be good and the other evil is a purely Christian conceit. Both have their purpose, and one is no better or worse than the other. Loki, being both, is doubly difficult to slot into one singular component of neat duality.

Does Loki do assholish things a lot in the stories? Yes, without a doubt. But so do the other gods. I would even argue that Loki’s motivations are less corrupt than those of gods such as Odin, since for the most part his assholery is for fun rather than a result of selfishness or malice – but that’s open to interpretation, and excludes the Lokasenna, in which he gives the rest of the gods a vicious dressing down purely because they desperately need it.

So in sum, I wouldn’t say your dad is wrong – just not completely right. If you want to work with Loki and Sigyn, give it a shot! There’s a whole community of people here who work with and adore them both. Lots of people have experienced Loki being an asshole, because he’s a god, so sometimes he is – but at the same time, there are plenty of people (many, like myself, who are also in the former group) whom he has helped, comforted, and lifted up. 

Do what feels right, and don’t let Christian-influenced biases ruin a good thing. And if you ever need help or have questions, we’re here for you!

-Mod M

I totally agree with the above, but just since it’s a common misconception that I don’t want to unintentionally spread: you don’t have to focus your practice around one male and one female god. You can have one primary god, or none, or several, and you don’t need to maintain any kind of gender balance. It’s kind of debatable whether Loki counts as a male god, anyway. So yes, worship Loki and Sigyn if that’s who calls to you, but don’t feel limited just because you believe you need a heteronormative pair.

Best wishes on your spiritual journey!

- Mod E

[lokeanwelcomingcommittee]

I was told by a friend that I can worship Loki but he can't be my patron god. Is that true? Maybe I don't have a full understanding of what a patron god is.

The concept of “patron gods” as most modern Pagans use it is actually a modern one. In the past, some historical heathens would focus on a certain god because that’s who their family worshiped or claimed descent from, or because that god was tied to the place they lived. And other cultures, like Greece and Rome, had patrons you were supposed to pray to based on your profession. But at least as far as the evidence we have today suggests, it appears that a lot of people just worshiped the gods collectively without having any one particular patron at all, and the majority of those who did have one main individual relationship didn’t necessarily choose them like we do.

Because of that, some people do argue that patrons shouldn’t even be a thing in Heathenry. But if you are one of the people who believes in the patron thing, then there’s just no solid reason to exclude Loki specifically based on the lore. In fact, there’s even a King Gorm in the Gesta Danorum who appears to have a devotional relationship with Utgarda-Loki! While the relationship between Loki and Utgarda-Loki is unclear, the latter is still clearly a jotun and from Utgard.

So either your friend was arguing that Heathens shouldn’t have patrons at all, or they’re under the false impression that Loki is evil or too chaotic to be trusted or something. Check our nokeans tag for discussion on how to refute claims that Loki is out to screw us over.

- Mod E

[lokeanwelcomingcommittee]

Hello hello! Your blog has been such a joy trying to sort of this whole trickster business. Anyway, a few months ago, a trusted friend dismissed my new found path by saying that Loki was simply not a God at all. That he's a jötun, and there is no proof of worship of him in old times. Since then, I've found this a reoccurring theme elsewhere online. How would you face that challenge in conversation? Especially with somebody very well versed in the literature and in history? Thank you!

Hi! We’re glad you’ve found our blog helpful, and are sorry to hear your friend isn’t accepting of your chosen path.

The lines between the jotnar and aesir are really blurry in the lore. Tyr and Thor, for example, are both half jotun by blood, yet no one questions their allegiance. Even Odin is part jotun. Because the allegiance of Loki’s parents is also unclear, it’s quite possible he’s no less part of the tribe by birth than Tyr is. A lot of scholars theorize that’s why he goes his mom’s name rather than his dad’s: his mom is where he gets his Aesir status from.

Even if Loki is actually 100% jotun by blood (and he may not be), he’s been adopted as Odin’s blood brother. In medieval Iceland, this was legally binding and effectively made someone a member of the family. There was also a public ceremony that involved bloody womb-like tunnels, described in Njal’s Saga.

Snorri casts Loki in a more negative light than any other medieval source, basically conflating him with Christian Satan, yet even he lists Loki as one of the Aesir. Even even Snorri rolls with it, there’s really very little basis to deny the affiliation.

However, it’s true that there’s very little evidence that Loki had a historical cult. There’s actually a bunch of stuff out there, but it can be dismissed as being too late to accurately reflect pre-Christian belief (see Lokka Tattur and Loki in Younger Tradition by Axel Olrik for stuff in this category.) And a lot of the other commonly cited stuff (the Snaptun Stone, Kirkby Stephen Stone, etc.) are quite possibly not depictions of Loki. Norse art was really stylized, so it can be hard to tell who’s supposed to be who.

The thing is, the same could be said of a bunch of other Norse gods, including Frigg, Baldr, and Heimdallr. We haven’t uncovered much evidence that they had cults either. Yet nobody seems to have a problem when someone hails Frigg at a blot. Our faith is reconstructed. We can never know exactly how our ancestors practiced, and even if we did, we wouldn’t want to perfectly emulate them anyway. (I, for one, am very happy to let go of the slavery and human sacrifice.)

Ultimately, a lot of people either aren’t willing to let go of their modern Western need for a black-and-white morality, or they don’t want the minorities who tend to worship Loki in their groups. Most of these people aren’t going to be swayed by historical evidence regardless. Still, it’s important to analyze why you do what you do for your own sake. You can find some more Loki defense posts here, here, and here.

- Mod E

[avatar216]

Rant: Being Pro Loki is Hard: Nokeans Fu*ing Suck

I’m starting to question if I’m really a Norse Pagan/Heathen because I don’t worship ancestors or land wights. I make offerings to the gods but that’s it really. I’m in a group on FB called the Norse Gods Discussion Group, and this group is filled with assholes who hate on us, Loki worshipers. One of the mods is the fucking worst. This dude constantly repeats the same shit about Loki no matter what. People in this group love the concept of Innangard and Utangard, but I honestly think this shit is used in a very toxic way. It makes them think it’s okay to call us betrayers, liars, deceivers, evil, etc. Their hard dickbro recons, and I’m a revivalist. They have no respect. I’m sick of the regurgitation. I know some might criticize me for calling out this group, but I honestly don’t care.  

I’m not a recon, nor do I want to be one. I know Loki worship is likely modern but that doesn’t make it invalid. There are other gods and goddesses who have no historical evidence of worship. There is actually more evidence for Loki than say Eir. Nokean DICKbros are the worst. I call them dickbro Heathens because their mostly men who have a fucked up view of people and sometimes especially women. They think it’s A-okay to treat everyone who doesn’t fall in line with their very narrow view of what Heathen is like dirt.  

I dealt with a friend trying to change me and invalidate my beliefs. I’m not going to put up with it from dickbros in the community. The weird thing is that I don’t even make offerings to Loki very often. I make offerings to Thor way more like once a month. I just stand by the idea that Loki is one of the Aesir and is worthy of respect and worship. I don’t think he’s special or anything. I don’t even accept the Idea that Loki is a full Jötunn who is special because he is one of two or three that are allowed to live in Asgard that I know some Lokeans have. I think he’s a god because of his mother Laufey, not because Odin adopted him or whatever. I think that may be part of the reason why he’s allowed to stay in Asgard, but I don’t think that’s why he’s considered an Áss.  

As I said, I’m a revivalist, not a recon. I take later sources into account when it comes to how I view the gods. I think Loki is a protector of the helpless and sometimes desperate, especially parents looking to protect their children. I don’t think Loki is always nice and kind. Sometimes he will knock you on your ass if you do something he thinks you shouldn’t be doing. I think his dark side plays into his role as a protector because he has to be dangerous on some level in order to be affective at doing the job. No one is scared of someone who is super nice and friendly unless they come off as creepy as well.                          

[rebelfeathers]

me, seeing another Heathen group on FB: ooooh let's investigate

Heathen group page: we're eclectic! and not racist or folkish! we meet locally, right near you! Pagans and Druids welcome!

me: OMG OMG OMG :0

further down the Heathen group page: HEIMDALL WILL DESTROY THE LIESMITH AT RAGNAROK. LOKI IS SATAN.

me: fuck. again? really?? SIGH

[lokeanwelcomingcommittee]

So I have herd and I'm not sure where, that Loki is considered a hearth deity in some fashion. Is there anywhere that can be found showing it as a credible source? As well as his fire aspect. My husband is very leary and unwelcome with Loki. He is an eclectic witch and practioner of occult high magick. He was aware of someone who was asatru divining help from a domestic violence relationship to get away. Their last resort was Loki..will continue in next ask

Loki helped but not with consequences as he told me.   I just don’t feel that and I know that’s all that boils down to it.  I just need some positive reinforcement to show my husband.   Thanks.

I’m sorry you’ve been having some religious conflict with your husband. I know how difficult that can be.

It has indeed been theorized that Loki may have been a hearth deity based on the Snaptun Stone and late Scandinavian folk tradition. See “Loki, the Vätte, and the Ash Lad“ by Eldar Heide for a rundown. The evidence is pretty shaky, but the possibility is there. Although a lot of the modern fire associations actually stem from a misunderstanding by Grimm and Wagner.

But the thing is, Loki doesn’t have to be a hearth or fire deity to be a vital figure in Norse myth. Loki is an instigator of change and a speaker of hard truths. He’s an outsider that transgresses physical or societal boundaries. Those things are important. And the dark, scary parts of him, the parts that howl deliriously in the cave, the parts that would see the world burn, are important too. Odds are that, as a Lokean, you work with Loki not in spite of these things, but because of them. And if your husband can’t respect that, he isn’t really respecting your work at all.

And so, I hope you don’t mind if I link you to some posts that defend Loki as an agent of change.

Lokavinr’s FAQ is a great place to start, with pretty thorough citations. Lokavinr’s explanation of how the concepts of innangard and utgard are misused by modern Heathens is also worth a read.

The Faroese ballad Lokka Táttur, where Loki uses his trickery for good and is unambiguously the hero. 

Grumpy Lokean Elder has a number of posts on the topic, linked here.

This thread has a lot of great points from several different devotees.

Here’s a short but powerful post on worldbreaking by hyacinth-halcyon

And I hate to blow my own horn, but here’s a post about ways Loki has had a positive impact on my own life.

If you’re able to get your hands on it, I also recommend Trickster Makes this World by Lewis Hyde.

Hopefully something in there will help you gather your thoughts and explain your views to your husband more clearly, and at least help him understand, if not agree. Good luck!

-Mod E