#ph ending

[lilyginnyblack]

Hey there! I can't find your thoughts post for Retrace 104: Will. ^^' Oh... or If it's not up, sorry for asking about it. ^^''' You're very busy, so I don't want to make you feel pressured about it. (Maybe one of these days I'll get off anon with a question x)

Yeah, no thoughts post is up. There probably isn’t going to be one. Those posts just took too much out of me I also just ended up writing up the vast majority of my thoughts when I was answering Asks that people sent me, so I ended up not really seeing a point in doing one. In general, I think Retrace 104 was a satisfactory ending. It was certainly beautiful and emotionally fulfilling, but I thought Mochizuki-sensei could have used those 102 pages and put them to better use. I feel like a lot of nothing happened and that the Dream Tea Party sequence was way too long. There ending up being more loose ends then I thought there would be.I really loved how she handled Vincent, Rufus, Sheryl, Oz, Alyss, Cheshire (even though, to be honest, his returning was annoying and kinda unnecessary and the time spent on his scenes could have been used towards Alice or later towards wrapping up Jury’s arc properly), and Reim…I guess. I really don’t know where to put him…I think they had the best character arc wrap ups (in 104, not generally speaking). 

The others I felt she either just completely forgot about them (Hey there, Lotty, Dug, Lily, and Levi!), didn’t give them a proper wrap up (Hey there Sharon, Alice (she can also just kinda double as being forgotten), and Jury - that subplot was just kinda left hanging), or just didn’t give that little extra push to make me feel completely satisfied with their character arc wrap up (mostly Gilbert, Leo, and Jack - I just wish we could have gotten one thought about Oswald in the end, when Jack finally knew himself). I also felt that the issue with the Core of the Abyss was handled a bit too quickly and neatly.It certainly wasn’t the worse ending though, was quite touching and beautiful in many ways, and any information that we might get in the guidebook and such may end up changing some of my feelings on how some things. We’ll have to wait and see. If you want to read more detailed thoughts on things though, just check out my PH Ask, Retrace 104, and PH ending tags. You’ll have to go back quite a bit, but I answered a lot of questions and asks about Retrace 104 and my thoughts on various things that happened in that chapter. You can find all of my responses there. :)

[lilyginnyblack]

Why do you think the Juries never reappeared? What was their purpose in the first place?

It is likely that Mochizuki-sensei found their story to be complete (though, I feel like it wasn’t fully resolved). Either that, or maybe she had introduced them just in case the series needed to go on longer than she had originally planned (this does often happen with manga series), so maybe they were meant to be a backup plot/plan that could have been elaborated more on if the need arose.Their purpose was likely for a few reasons - to give us some more background information on the world building and the mythos of the world of Pandora Hearts. PH actually gets pretty spiritual in a way, since it heavily deals with the existensial and also with things like gods and even angel like creatures (the Core, the Chains - angels in the actual bible are actually depicted as being rather frightening, though the Chains can also double as demons, and there were a few mentions of angels in title of places and things), playing God (what Levi did), the Underworld (the Abyss), a human God (basically the whole thing with the Core and Alyss), and so on and so forth. The Jurors provided us with more meta structures for these more abstract elements - Jury also provided us with important information on Child of Misfortune, the Baskervilles, and Glen. Through the Jurors we also learn that in the world of PH the idea of String Theory or Multiple Universes does, in fact, exist.Mochizuki-sensei also did something rather clever with Leo and the whole “the world is just a story” idea. Leo always loved reading books, he liked the way that they could transport him to other places and make him someone else. Well, now he knows that he is, in fact, a character in a book and he takes full advantage of that fact, giving himself an ending that he is happy with, but also one that fully encompasses the fact that while this may be a story to others, it is life to him.Still, I felt like the whole Jury plot line got left hanging just a bit. I didn’t expect much more from them, but I did expect them to pay Leo a visit or something. I even would have felt happy if the very last page had been them placing the book on the self (on the last page it is stated that their Gil, Oz, and Alice’s story, has come to an end and a new one is beginning). I think it would have been cool to kind of see that book being finished and a new one starting. Then again, that might have been too much meta for Mochizuki-sensei.Who knows though! Maybe we will see Jury and the others again in another one of Mochizuki-sensei’s series. With the kind of universe structure Mochizuki-sensei has created, it could be easy to interconnect different worlds and different stories.

[lilyginnyblack]

Given what happened to Oz after he killed The Intention, does that mean that all Chains with Contracts made without using the Carcere of the Legal Contract would die alongside their Contractor? Like would Lacie's Chain, Grim and Tove be dead because of Lacie's, William West's and Fang's deaths?

PH spoilers! Spoilers! Retrace 104 Spoilers! Ending Spoilers!

Well, Alyss/The Will of the Abyss being killed won’t have any affect on Chains whatsoever. Chains existed before the Will of the Abyss did, after all. And Oz’s contract with the Alyss is different from an Illegal Contractor’s one. Their souls were linked, but when they made their contract no blood needed to be exchanged.

As for the fates of Lacie, William West, and Fang’s Chains…I don’t know about Lacie’s Chain, and I can’t remember if Break used Mad Hatter to kill/destroy Tove as well as Fang or just Fang, but there is a strong likelihood that Tove’s soul was finally allowed to reincarnate if Tove died or Tove simply entered the Abyss and formed a new contract. William West’s contract with Grim was up (or just about up, I believe, though I could be remembering incorrectly), when he was killed, so I think it is very likely that Grim just reentered into the Abyss and made another contract with another Illegal Chain. However, I do think that it is likely that if a Contractor has an Illegal Contract and is killed before the Contract is completed, then that Chain will die and be allowed to reincarnate (the same would happen if the Contractor denies the Contract, like with Elliot and Humpty Dumpty).Though, I could be wrong. We aren’t given detailed information on Chains in the series. There is still quite a bit about them that we don’t know really know.

[lilyginnyblack]

Do you think Rufus Barma's love for Sheryl was unrequited until the end?? (Thank you for answering everyone's questions. It's so nice!)

You’re welcome! :)I’m going to put my answer under a Read More, because it is lengthy and there are spoilers for Retrace 104! PH spoilers! Ending spoilers!!!

You know...I don’t know. I’ve been thinking about this for a while, actually, ever since I was translating Retrace 104. We know that Sheryl loves Barma, on what level is not made specifically clear, but there are things about him that she (as she stated in the final chapter) “quite likes” about him. The text also stated that Barma seemed to find enjoyment out of their “Marry me!” “No way!” exchanges, the Japanese used implies that there was a different level of feeling within their heart, though that seemed to be specifically in concerns to marriage itself (or, I mean, the idea of them getting married). But for all intents and purposes, the usual “Marry me!” “No!” exchanges, over the years, seem to have become a way of flirting on their part. When they were younger, they seemed to bicker a lot, that was the type of relationship that they always had, so bickering as a way of flirting seems very fitting for them. Especially since, when we see them here at in Retrace 104, they seemed to get amusement from their exchanges. They worked together on a lot of things, Sheryl took care of Rufus when he was injured, and Rufus always took care of Sheryl. They spent their free time together and enjoyed each others company. When Rufus died, Sheryl happily spent some time every day (likely until she died) drinking tea and talking to him about the weather and every day events. They were essentially a married couple in every way, except for actually (and legally) being married.But, I think the reason Sheryl always refused Rufus’ proposals had nothing to do with her feelings for him, but everything to do with marriage itself. They were childhood friends. They knew each other for such a long time, perhaps Sheryl was afraid that marriage would ruin that. We know that, in the beginning draft stages of PH, Mochizuki-sensei had been planning on having Sharon and Vincent be wed for political reasons, as we can see, that got scrapped, but the idea of the Rainsworth women for political reasons seems like it stuck. When Sheryl told Rufus that she was going to be married, she used the Japanese grammatical structure ことになる (koto ni naru). Koto ni naru is used when you talk about a decision that has been made, but which you personally did not make (so, usually when something has been decided for you, like a forced company transfer or something). So, for Sheryl, marriage was a matter of politics and convenience, it had nothing to do with love. For Shelly it was very likely the same. The Rainsworth Household was, after all, a mediator household that was about keeping the peace, especially between the three other Great Dukedoms, but also likely for and within the high class society sphere as well. Political marriages is likely how they rose to power so quickly. 

Sharon is the only Rainsworth woman that I think we can safely say married the person of her choosing (Reim) and due to the feelings she came to have for him and the bond and comfort they shared (especially when it came to the loss of Break). By the time Sharon got married though, the Rainsworth Household had been stripped of its power, so marrying for political reasons was no longer a factor. Get rid of that factor and Sheryl has no reason for marrying Rufus (and before then she likely did not want to marrying Rufus because marrying the Barma Household would not have been beneficial political or to the Rainsworth Household in anyway outside of her own personal feelings and emotions).

We also know that Sheryl placed a lot of importance on appearance and behavior. She found Rufus’ appearance to be sloppy for a Duke and his behavior to be ill-fitting for one as well. But she states that that is also what she rather liked about him.So, while we don’t know for certain (and the third guidebook my completely prove me wrong), but I think Sheryl loved Rufus. And it was because she loved him that she never wanted to marry him, which is what Rufus realized by the end and came to love and enjoy himself. I think for Sheryl, marriage would have stifled her love for him and would have destroyed it, instead of allowing it to grow into the beautiful thing that it was shown to be in the epilogue section of Retrace 104.So, I think Sheryl did reciprocate Rufus’ feelings, at least, on some level. They didn’t get married (although, I’m not going to lie, that would have been precious), but marriage isn’t a necessary thing in order to say that a pairing is canon nor is it really necessary to confirm the feelings a pairing has for each other. If there is one thing I think Mochizuki-sensei did really well, is that she was able to write these couples that didn’t need to outright say that they loved each other for you to know and understand that they did (such as with Vincent and Ada, Vincent’s actions spoke louder than his words to us as readers. By him letting Ada go, it showed that he truly cared for her and had feelings for her, otherwise he wouldn’t have gone to the lengths that he did, nor would he have checked in on her to make sure she was happy and had a stable, normal life that he couldn’t provide for her). The same applies to Rufus and Sheryl as well. In the epilogue they were basically a married couple in all but name, and I think you could tell that they loved each other.

[lilyginnyblack]

After the last retrace, Abyss is back to its original form. Does this mean chains doesn't exist anymore? Meaning Leo won't in any way become a chain, in the end? We know that dukedoms have been put down too. Could this mean that Leo's soul will take part of the 100 years cycle? Sorry to bother you and for my bad english as well ^^

PH spoilers! Spoilers! Retrace 104 spoilers! Ending spoilers! 

The Abyss is back in its original form, but I don’t think it permanently stayed that way. Not only does the Abyss take on different forms for different people at times (I believe Break or someone mentioned this, like how it could look like a Toy Box to one person and something else to another), but the Abyss is very closely connected to the world above. The world above is not a completely pure place and the Abyss isn’t either. Even when it was a place filled with golden light, there was still a part of it that was dark/held darkness. Jury mentions how that is the place were the CoM were sent for their bodies and souls to be completely destroyed. It is like how, even when the Abyss seemed to be shrouded in darkness, there was still a spot of light/hope. 

Like I said above, the Abyss and the world above are linked/connected to each other, so I wouldn’t find it surprising if the state of the world above could influence how much light or how much darkness there is in the Abyss itself (when we see it back in its original form, it is right after the Chains are restored, so it seems like the Abyss kind of went through a complete overhaul, reboot, or whatever other word you would like to use to describe such a process). 

Chains seem to have been around as long as the Baskervilles and the Core of the Abyss has existed, so I don’t think the Abyss returning back to its original appearance will have much impact on Chains, since Chains are born from the Core giving consciousness to things, people turning into Chains due to entering into the Abyss while they are still alive and are not a Baskerville or CoM (which is why Oswald wanted every to be killed during the Tragedy so their souls would be able to be reincarnated, rather than turned into Chains), or if/when an Illegal Contractors contract is up and they get dragged down into the lowest parts of the Abyss and then get transformed into a Chain. None of these things have to do with the appearance of the Abyss itself, and in fact, when the Baskervilles get chosen it is by the power of the Abyss entering into their body. That power is described as a golden light and it is that power that makes them more like Chains than humans. 

I can’t say for certain what happened to all the Chains, since we know very little about that. All we do know is that Pandora was disbanded on Sheryl’s command, so that likely put an end to Legal Contracts, though I suspect that Illegal Contracts still occurred in large numbers (as the years passed this may have decreased due to advancements in technology and the simple passing of time, which may have made such information about and of the Chains harder to find/come by and move them closer towards just being myths and legends or even an aspect of religion more than actual real, legit things). 

But that is simply speculation. What will happen to Leo and his soul will depend on what he decides to do. He only had one contract - his contract with Jabberwock, while Levi had four more (Gryphon, Owl, Raven, and Dodo). Therefore, Levi had way more power from the Abyss running through his body than Leo ever has, so his body rotting away and being turned into a Chain makes sense, since he was more Chain like in that way than Leo ever will be. 

So Leo becoming a Chain seems very unlikely, what will happen to his soul though will depend on if he allows his body to die naturally and thus breaking the Glen cycle and allowing his soul, as well as the collective Glen souls that exist within his consciousness, to move on and be reincarnated. But, if he does that, then there is a high probability that there will be no new CoM, and if there is no new CoM or Baskerville servants, who will go and visit the Core and make sure the Core has a friend? If there is no one to keep the Core company from time to time, then what happened with the Tragedy and such may happen again. So, Leo may choose to find the next Glen and the CoM and pass on the powers of Glen to the new person. If that happens, his soul will enter into the collective consciousness with the other Glens, were it will stay until the cycle is finally broken and their souls can be free to enter the reincarnation cycle. 

In the end, what will happen to Leo and his soul will all depend on Leo.Don’t worry, you aren’t a bother and your English is really good! :D I hope I was able to answer all of your questions! ^-^

[lilyginnyblack]

How come Oz and Alice disappear? was it because they were swallow by the Will of the Abyss or because Oz made a contract with Alyss and since Alice is clinging to Oz existence if he dies she will also disappear And how come making a contract with the Will of the Abyss means that Oz is going to disappear after words? Sorry for my bad inglish

PH SPOILERS! RETRACE 104 SPOILERS! SPOILERS! ENDING SPOILERS!

The contract made Oz’s soul be connected to the Will of the Abyss/Alyss and since Alice’s soul was absorbed into Alyss’ body by the Core of the Abyss, her soul was connected too. So when Alyss was killed, Oz essentially killed himself as well (Alice was already dead, physically, so he didn’t necessarily kill her, just gave her no body to stay attached to). Hope that helps! :)

[lilyginnyblack]

Hello! Now, I'm not sure myself, and I don't know if anyone else is feeling the same way, but why do you think it bothers me so much that Gilbert had to wait 115 years for Oz and Alice? Not necessarily a bad feeling, but more upsetting in a sad way.

PH SPOILERS! SPOILERS! RETRACE 104 SPOILERS! ENDING SPOILERS!

Hello! :)Hmm, well, I don’t know you anon, and these are your feelings, so I can’t really explain why you might be feeling a certain way. But, I can give you my own thoughts on the whole “Gil choosing to wait 115 years for Oz and Alice” ending. Maybe it will be able to help you figure out your own feelings? I don’t know if it well, but I hope it does.So, for me…it’s an okay ending for Gil, but a part of me feels like his character kinda ended up back at square one again. We started the series with Gil waiting 10 years for Oz and now this time we have Gil waiting 100 years (though, much more likely 115 years) for Oz and Alice. It is nice, of course, to see that Gil has extended his waiting to Alice as well, but I feel like the reunion scene and the scenes leading up to Oz’s departure were still largely focused on Oz and Gil’s relationship rather than Gil and Alice’s (though, I believe this is also largely due to the fact that Alice’s character never got the proper development that she deserved, and while her and Gil’s relationship definitely changed and grew closer over the course of the series, it never got to the same depth as Oz and Gil’s relationship did). So, in that respects, I don’t see much improvement from Gil at the beginning to Gil at the end of the series.Though, there has been a lot of improvements - for example, we know that Gil served Leo during those 100 years. To me, this means that when he reunites with Oz again he is reuniting with a friend and not a master. That’s very important. And we see him come into his own - he regains his memories, he starts trying to fix his relationship with Vincent (he actually starts caring about Vincent again and not being freaked out by him), and breaks free from the brainwashing he once was a victim of.I do also like the fact that Gil ended up being the narrator of the story, that was a really nice twist that I didn’t expect, but which makes a lot of sense. But at the same time…Gil tells us a lot about what happened to everyone else, but not much about what happened to him. He says that he, along with Vincent and the other Baskervilles, ended up serving Leo, but like…what did he do? Outside of write and create this book (which mostly seems to be for Oz, since Oz is the main character and the story itself revolves around Oz’s story - his Coming - of - Age), did he do anything else? What kinds of things did Gil learn to do for himself? Like, did he finally quit smoking? Did he go and explore and do things for himself? I think, if we could have been given just a little more insight into how Gil spent his 100 + years of waiting, I would feel less of this mixed feeling about Gil’s ending.Gil’s character came such a long way, and his scene with Vincent was really touching, because we see how he was worried about Vincent, we see him being totally okay with Vincent hugging him, we see Vincent finally realizing and understanding the words that Gil spoke to him all those 100 + years ago, and we see Vincent finally make Gil happy - but at the same time Gil is still so devoted to others, so much of his life still seems to be for others (Oz, Alice, Vincent)…I don’t know. Overall, I feel satisfied with Gil’s ending. He came a long, long way from how he was at the beginning, but at the same time, I feel like Mochizuki-sensei just didn’t give that extra bit of ‘umph’ to his character arc to really make it feel complete and fulfilling (rather than it feeling like a Gil with a good amount of character development ended up back at square one). This may change though, if we learn more about Gil during those 100+ years and how he spent his time.And, well, that’s all I really have to say on that.I don’t know if these thoughts were able to help you figure out your own upset feelings about Gil having to wait for Oz and Alice, but I hope you can get something out of them!

[lilyginnyblack]

Do you ship Oz and Gilbert? And also, out of curiosity, do you think there's a chance Gilbert could be in love with Oz or vice versa? I mean, I gave it some thought, and I don't think I'd wait 110 years for JUST a friend to be back by my side. It'd have to be someone I love. Thank you!

PH SPOILERS! SPOILERS! RETRACE 104 SPOILERS! ENDING SPOILERS!

Yes, I do ship Ozbert, but I see it as being mostly one-sided on Gil’s part (in canon anyway, fanon is a different story, in fanon I don’t limit it to a one-sided ship). 

I think there could be a chance that Gil is in love with Oz (on a romantic level - I view Gil as being Asexual). I know that I, and quite a few other overseas fans, asked if any of the characters were LGBTQIA+ and who they are and etc. It was for the Popularity Poll for the 24 + 1 Guidebook. I really hope that she answers it, because I am incredibly interested in seeing how she views the sexual orientation of her characters. It could also clarify things like the ambiguous nature of Gil’s feelings towards Oz.

Also, you’re welcome! :) (Though, just a quick note before I forget, it was more likely that Gil actually waited 115 years. And he was waiting for Alice too, not just Oz...though the way it was set up and the reunion scene itself seemed to place a bit more emphasis on Oz and Gil’s reunion rather than Gil’s reunion with Alice).