#pia on editing

[not-poignant]

how do ao3 authors generally (or you specifically!) feel about readers pointing out small spelling/grammar mistakes? i sometimes tack it on to a comment i’ve already written, but am not sure if it’s helpful or a breach of etiquette or something.

Hi anon!

I imagine every author feels differently. I'm generally fine with it, as long as it's something I can fix in like a minute (so a typo, a grammatical error). If it's something bigger like a continuity error that's going to take hours / days to fix then it's like 'I do not see it and I would like if you also pretended not to see it' lmao

That being said, if a reader only comments to correct grammar and doesn't talk about liking or enjoying the chapter, it can sometimes feel a bit pedantic, or like they're not even enjoying the process. So it doesn't hurt to just...also say you're enjoying the chapter at the time lol. If you're tacking it on to comments you've already written, for me that's perfectly fine and really helpful! I usually fix the error ASAP even if I don't reply to the comment immediately.

It's also completely fine if someone wants to reach out to me privately to point out a grammar/spelling/punctuation thing but don't want it to be seen in the comments! I've had people reach out via Discord or through the Ask system here so I can go and fix something in a chapter. So for folks who feel a bit like maybe they shouldn't (though it is okay!) you can try reaching out privately too.

Different authors feel differently about it! I overall find it really helpful, especially in things that are the easiest for me to miss (like substituted names which editing software won't pick up, or a dropped word) - but all of it's helpful if it makes for a smoother reading experience for everyone.

[not-poignant]

34 Do you write to improve? Or is that not a concern for you?

Hmm.

I write to improve, but it's not my main reason for writing. So I am concerned with the skills shown in my craft, and I'm always evolving in different directions to try and get stronger in my areas of weaknesses.

For example I'm typically weak at beginnings so I've worked harder to write stronger first and second chapters. I used to be very wary of over-describing characters but that led to under-describing them, so I've been working on that. I learn techniques from other writers, and I read back through my own works and see the places where I'd write some things differently today.

Lately I've been a lot more pro-active about erasing entire sentences from drafts. I've also always been very focused on tightening my prose, which might be surprising to people given how long my stories are. But prose tightening is something I enjoy doing during edits and I believe makes my stories more solid.

So yeah I do write to improve! It's just not my main focus. I also write just for enjoyment, in which case I don't give a shit about improving while I'm writing, and just make sure that I'm shaping the chapter in the edits.

Folks might be surprised how much I believe on improving my craft in the background though, because I think I can come across as a 'I'm just doing what I want' author. But I studied - among other things - creative writing and scriptwriting at university for years, have done editing courses, and when I reread through my chapters before editing (which I did last night) I will often make a lot of mental notes like: 'You're using these words too much, this whole section needs tightening, this section needs clarity, this doesn't carry enough explanation, this carries too much explanation' etc.

And a person doesn't do that if they don't give a shit about improving their craft. :D

~

From this meme!

[not-poignant]

Hi Pia! I was rereading one of your works and was wondering if you’d maybe wanna discuss the quotations for dialogue? I know both are correct, but I just got a little curious about it the usage of ‘spoken words’ vs “spoken words” and your preference for one. Usually when I’ve seen the ‘spoken words,’ it’s been for older works.

Hi anon,

My preference is that I'm Australian, I learned writing at university many many years ago now (I am an old), and I was taught correct Australian grammar there! And while I still make mistakes on some things, dialogue isn't it.

Some people use the US "" instead of the Australian '' - and that's now okay simply because so many people were doing it, the editors of Australia were like 'fuck it, you can do it' (with exceptions) - but like, most of the Australian copies of international books that I have, actually don't use " " for dialogue at all.

I'm going to get some examples, because this is something you've likely never seen, because publishing houses change the grammar based on the country. This means that books that have double quotation marks everywhere else in the world for dialogue, have single quotation marks in Australia if you're picking them up in Australia or they've been published through most Australian publishers. Because buying books is more global now, Australians will likely have a mix of double quotations and single quotations books. Many Australians don't even realise there's a difference, they're so used to it.

Here's an Australian book:

(Skins by Sarah Hay)

So that makes sense for an Australian book by an Australian author.

What about the classic The Collector by John Fowles. Surely, that not being an Australian book, that'd have double quotation marks right?

Not if it was published here:

What about something a little more recent? Like The God of Small Things by Arundhati Roy?

I'm not sure how to explain it beyond: 'Literally almost every book we pick up here that was published here does this, and it's not a like quirky preference, it's literally what we grew up seeing and reading. To us, double quotation marks is unusual and seems more 'quirky'.'

This is less common now as an attitude simply because of globalisation and the internet existing. But for most of my life, buying books meant only seeing dialogue like this. Right up until I was in the 30s, I think. Purchasing books online changed that, and people who grew up with the internet from the very beginning are going to be more used to seeing double quotation marks.

But many Australian publishers will still insist on correct Australian grammar with preference given to Australian grammar.

Our grammar is quite strange, and sort of a mix between US and UK but with some unique aspects of which you've probably noticed the single quotation marks is one.

That's because Australian grammar is built on journalism, and anything that saved space in a newspaper was prioritised. So Australian grammar eliminates double spaces at the end of periods. It eliminates double quotations because they take up extra space. There are dash rules designed to eliminate space that an article might take up.

And you know, I'm quite proud of that grammar. :D It does get me some heat when I publish something, usually from grammar puritans from the USA, which is why I now just post a blanket 'this author uses Australian grammar so you may notice some departures with dialogue grammar' caveat.

Anyway, the reason/s most newer works have double quotations is because a) they're being purchased en masse overseas and that's cheaper than publishing here, b) those Australians are young and have learned to write based on overseas writing, c) they don't know actually know Australian grammar, it's not actually taught well in our curriculums, d) it is just something they prefer, e) they publish with overseas publishers and because they have to edit their works to UK or US grammar anyway, they just adopted it because it's easier that way, f) someone erroneously corrected them for doing the right thing and they changed to another country's dialogue grammar, g) it really is okay to just pick the one you like best now and stick with it, h) some screen readers cannot cope with single quotation marks (which imho, is something screen readers need to address if it means ignoring an entire country's/continent's grammar style).

And finally, here's the Australian Government Style Guide, which still doesn't permit double quotation marks at all in dialogue.

[not-poignant]

What is beta etiquette? I’ve made some friends in a new fandom lately and a few of them have told me they’re open to betaing my new fic. Thing is, I’ve never had a beta before. Other than spell checking and grammar what does a beta do? Would it be rude if I asked them to look over my fic and help me choose out of a few dialogues which one is better or to brainstorm what will happen next?

Hiya anon!

So, beta etiquette is communication, pretty much.

As in, you tell them what you're looking for, and you ask them/they tell you what they'd be comfortable doing in that list. Some betas only want to look at typos and grammar, others really enjoy doing things like structural edits (i.e. pointing out when something isn't working in the chapter), and so on.

Betaing is a lot of labour/effort, so it's really important to be respectful to what they want to do and not push, which is why it's good to be upfront with what you're looking for. It's also okay to have more than one beta, such as one who looks at grammar/typos and maybe one to brainstorm with. Another thing you'll need to be upfront about is how quickly you expect a turnaround, some betas can take a month to look over a chapter, others will do it in a day, finding that synergy can take time.

So yeah, it's definitely not rude to say what you're looking for overall! But to be accepting of the boundaries/limits of what a beta can do. If you say 'I'm looking for this (i.e. including the brainstorming and stuff) but ultimately would be so happy if you/someone could look at grammar/typos with a turnaround of about two or three days' for example, that's not rude at all. You're putting forward a request, and they can choose to fulfil it. Communicating outright lets you both negotiate what you're doing together.

As an example, for my AO3 stuff, I have one beta (Silvia) who is my amazing grammar/typos beta, and cheerleader, but doesn't look at structural stuff etc. When it comes to publishing books, I have my second beta (Steph) who doesn't look at grammar/typos as much, but will tell me when she thinks things are/aren't working, or when I need more/less back-story or description or characterisation. I also do this for Steph when I beta for her (we have a mutual exchange), I do grammar/typos/structural and characterisation edits.

But I don't do brainstorming a lot of the time, because someone who is creating the story with you in concept is actually not going to be so great to then beta it for anything other than typos/grammar -> as soon as someone is involved in the creation process, they're not the best person to see the structural and characterisation issues because they now know how it was created vs. reading it fresh.

For example, I don't tell Silvia spoilers or what's coming up in my stories, because I want her fresh reaction to see the emotional impact of what I'm writing and how it lands, because emotional impact is really important in serial works and this is vital to me. If you have a beta helping you 'behind the scenes' in story construction, you may need another person to see the chapter fresh who isn't involved in that side of things.

But that's if you're lucky enough to find this many betas! Over the years I've had two betas for my AO3 stuff. Finding ones that are a good fit is frankly really hard, and more folks will offer than are reliable (it's easy to offer to beta, it's hard to do regularly). I've worked without a beta for long stretches of time as well. There was a period where I just didn't have one, and the pandemic and life stuff slammed Silvia for a time and quite a few chapters of Falling Falling Stars that year were retroactively betaed (i.e. they went up and I edited them later when Silvia could look at them).

I'd also be wary of having too many betas. One of the hardest things that many betas don't know how to do is to respect another person's writing style without projecting their own onto it (this is the difference imho between a good editor and a great one), and too many betas tends to mean 3-4 people each trying to change or alter your story to fit their style of writing more, or fit their idea of an 'ideal story' more - and if you have 3-4 betas working on story with you, you have 4-5 different ideas on how to do that story (i.e. yours and everyone else's).

It can work out great, but there's a reason most fanfic authors aren't thanking 3+ betas in their author's notes.

But anyway, lol, tl;dr - working with betas has a baseline of communication and compassion around it, and being upfront with what you're ideally looking for, and also being happy/okay with sometimes settling for what the other person is offering. :D

[not-poignant]

Hello! May I ask please why you write 'Dr' and not 'Dr.' with the full stop? English is not my native language and I would like to know why there is no dot (it is actually my first time seeing it like this). It is a British English? Thank you Pia! :)

Hi hi anon!

I do this because it's correct Australian grammar! We also don't put a period after Ms / Mrs / Ave (for Avenue) and so on.

You can learn more about Australian grammar here. This is also why I use single quotation marks for dialogue instead of double quotation marks. It's Australian grammar, not a 'quirk.' It's closer to - but not identical to - UK grammar.

[not-poignant]

I’ve been reading you work for years, and will continue doing so. Sometimes when struggling with insecurity, I’d get a notification for a new chapter of yours, read it, and then manage to write :) I’ve completed a novel, sent it in to a publisher, and they’re interested! For me writing is meditative but editing is fastidious, and as I’m always in varying degrees of head/neck pain, my composition is all over the place. How do you manage editing while having chronic illness?

Firstly, a huge congratulations on completing a novel and sending it to a publisher! I really hope that works out for you :D And I really wish you all the best. That's so so amazing. Also it's so humbling that you feel inspired to write sometimes after reading my stuff? That's like... *flails quietly*

For me writing is meditative but editing is fastidious, and as I’m always in varying degrees of head/neck pain, my composition is all over the place. How do you manage editing while having chronic illness?

This one is tough, and honestly my editing techniques are very personally targeted for me.

The first thing is that I do write relatively clean copy. As in, there are not like hundreds of mistakes per chapter. Between myself and my beta, we usually pick up between 0-5 typos (and they're usually dropped words, not misspelled words) per chapter. Most of my editing is tightening prose, and removing words that I'm overly reliant on. That does help! I'm definitely not a re-writer, or someone who wants to do big structural changes to a story.

Secondly, for editing, I use a noise generator. This one is very specific to my circumstances. I have very mild brain damage from 6 weeks of head/neck radiotherapy for two fairly decent size tumours in my neck. As a result of that, these days editing is actually a lot harder than it used to be, because of the damage to the writing/language centres of my brain. It causes more of a particular kind of error, one of which is I'll sometimes substitute a word with another word that sounds phonetically the same ('cheans' for 'jeans', 'prince' for 'prints' etc.). In general, editing is just harder than it used to be, because my brain is prone to making certain kinds of error that are sometimes hard to spot. The worst one is 'opposite' errors where I write 'hate' but mean 'love' or write 'can' but mean 'can't.'

Anyway! So for me:

I separate editing and writing days. I don't mind if I edit after I write a chapter on the same day if I really feel like it, after a break. But I do not write after a day I started editing. I find the process just feels smoother for me on both sides that way.

I do 'edit as I go.' In other words even while writing the Perth Shifters novels, I edited each chapter after finishing, before editing the whole story. This is partly because I was sending each chapter to my beta as I went.

I use a noise generator. I have unmedicated ADHD, with extremely poor visual attention, but very high auditory attention. So this isn't going to work for anyone with low auditory attention. But I need sound to be more successful at things that require vision (nearly everything). I've found songs are too distracting, but a noise generator provides enough background stimulation that I can stay focused on editing successfully. I'm also more likely to pick up errors with a noise generator than with music. For folks who hate sound, you might need noise cancelling earphones and complete silence. It's really important you find what works for you and tailor it.

If I'm editing a novel, I will break down my editing into different kinds of edits. The first will be a structural edit - which is reading to see if there are any big things I need to delete, or anything that just isn't working for the story. This is where I make my biggest deletions.

The second is the continuity edit. This is where I read for continuity of plot, but also continuity of character. Are the characters saying the same sorts of phrases throughout the story? Are their motivations consistent? If their talking style changes, is it because they're absorbing it from a romantic partner? What about their dialogue style differentiates from their partner? I can't tell you how many times I've read romances where I'm like 'these are both the same character, but Bob 1 is sad and Bob 2 is angry. When they are both feeling the same emotion at the same time, they will be completely indistinguishable from each other.'

The third edit is my 'words I overuse' edit. I have a lot of words I overuse - most authors do - and some of mine are 'just' and 'realised' and 'he thought' etc. I just ctrl+F and reduce the amounts of the words.

The fourth (sometimes third, switching up with the previous one) I do is general prose tightening, and sometimes further explaining on things that aren't clear enough. Prose tightening is probably my biggest thing in writing. I usually remove about 150-400 words per chapter via this (some people need to expand instead of tightening!), and I remove more in a novel. This is making sentences crisper, making sure there's good flow, deleting redundant sentences and paragraphs.

And the fifth is usually the general proof. But I'll do a proper 'proof' at the end once a story comes back from an editor or beta. This is the edit where you do a final check for like, missing full stops and commas, things that should be semi-colons but aren't, spacing issues, and again, typos. The proof is the hardest part of an edit and I hate it and honestly with the unmedicated ADHD I'm not very good at it. But I do try, lmao.

I don't do all of this for fanfiction, but if I'm publishing, then I will go through all of this before sending off to betas, or before letting my work go off to a professional editor. It helps me to break it down into certain stages because I know what I'm focusing on and instead of feeling like I have to fix everything at once, I can really hone in on what I need to focus on.

Honestly editing is very personal, what works for me may not work for you. I do think with novels it's good to break down the editing tasks into different things so that you're not trying to do everything at once. Structural vs. continuity vs. grammar edits are all very different things that employ different skillsets, you're kind of hurting yourself by forcing yourself to do them all at the same time. Structural + continuity can kind of go together, and continuity + grammar can kind of go together, but structural + grammar hurts.

And ultimately, outsourcing where possible! I don't use third party apps but I know some folks who run every chapter through Grammarly etc. before going through it again. Don't be afraid to utilise apps or software or people that can help you out in exchange for something that you can do for them.

Chronic illness doesn't really change any of this for me except that I need to separate writing/editing days a lot, and that I need to take breaks and be realistic about how much I can do at once.

I tend to get into 'editing mode' where I just want to get it out of the way because frankly I hate editing. It's taxing and exhausting and can push me into fatigue flares. I think writing serials vs. novels is actually one of the ways I cope with my chronic illness + editing, which represents a huge change in career, but editing novels all at once is crushing and frankly idk that I could do it on a regular basis.

I don't know if any of this helped because 90% was just 'regular editing advice' which I still use to help me edit even though I'm sick because it does help. And the other 10% is 'I completely changed my career so I didn't have to edit whole novels anymore.' x.x

[not-poignant]

Hey Pia!! I hope life is going well for you :) Question about your edits-- do you ever keep the original in the off chance you change something and don't find it going the way you want to? (Like Game Theory versions 1-20 or something like that lol ) I feel like it might be confusing if you did, but I was just curious. :3

I only keep the original file when I’m writing novels and doing editing across drafts (sometimes I don’t always make the right decisions re: what to remove / add back in), or in the case of serials when I’m doing a really deep edit (i.e. removing whole paragraphs etc.) after a story is finished. So I do still have the original SAL files, for example.

I also have all the original GT files (even GT has gone through some changes, the prologue it has now for example, it didn’t have - and that’s why it has the wrong ‘finish’ date and it actually finished about 1-2 years earlier).

In general, for the stuff I release on AO3, I don’t save the original files. I just edit over them 2-5 times before it comes to release. If I went back a few years later and decided to edit the whole story, I’d keep the original files though? But again, only if it was a deep edit. If I was just fixing some typos or dialogue, I actually do that direct into the AO3 file.

It’s not really that confusing! I have a pretty invested folder/organisational system on Dropbox, and I label files clearly. Old chapter files go into a folder either called ‘Redundant’ (if I’m not using them at all) or ‘Original’ (i.e. the original story), that way any new files in the folder are the ones I know are my up to date files. In the case of drafts re: novels though, it can look a bit messy, observe:

That’s probably one of my messiest folders though, lol.

[not-poignant]

Hi! Love your writing and your serials so much! Do you ever think about finishing a serial totally before posting it chapter by chapter? Are there good and bad sides to doing it the way you do it?

Hi anon!

I do think about finishing a serial totally before posting it chapter by chapter because honestly that would be the logically sane thing to do. But do I do it? No. My desperation for interaction and comments absolutely makes this impossible. The most I can do is write ahead about 8 chapters, and even that drives me up the wall, as I think ‘BUT I WANT TO TELL PEOPLE WHAT’S HAPPENING WITH THE RAVEN PRINCE RIGHT NOW DAMN IT.’

So for people who hear that I’ve completed 7 chapters and might be feeling antsy I am also feeling this feeling.

Are there good and bad sides to doing it the way you do it?             

Yes! :D Let’s chat about them. And by chat, I mean, let me ramble about that for no good reason for some time.

I mean the biggest cons to writing serials as you go really come down to the fact that it’s super easy to write myself into a dead end or cul de sac. I actually...don’t mind this feeling? I really enjoy being creative to get myself out of it. But there’s always the fear that somehow I’ll write myself into something that’s completely unfixable. Or worse, that I’ll abandon the work. That happens rarely, and so far on AO3, that hasn’t happened with a long work yet (only short ones, though I’m sure we all thought TGATNW was abandoned for a good long while - I mean I did too).

The other biggest con is not being able to do a huge structural edit before putting up a story. This means that say, for example, if I look back one day and realise the story works better by completely editing/rearranging something, this is almost never going to actually happen. Which means I’m left with works that get a lot of editing chapter by chapter, but no global editing where I look at the whole once it’s finished, fixing things structurally before anyone else sees it. I can do that with novels, but I don’t do that with serials.

It is easier to mitigate that with chapter plans, which I do for things like The Ice Plague so that I can see the global plot structure before committing to it.

But overall, authors don’t go back and edit AO3 serials, especially not super long ones, after it’s already up. That I think is the biggest downside. And if you do go back and edit, sometimes people notice and that...doesn’t end well either. Like, I took about 10,000 words out of the SALverse to shore it up and edit it afterwards, and that took me a while, and I got way more negative comments about it than positive comments about it. Even if it’s just some paragraphs here and there, people who treasure the first version do not like having a new version sprung on them, on AO3, without warning. And I feel like I should have given people a chance to download the original version first.

This is actually a big issue with editing Game Theory. I know I can make it more professional, but I also love the absolute fucking mess that it is, and I know that I’m not alone in that. If I change it, newcomers might find it easier to enter the fandom, but old readers may feel betrayed in the process. It’s a balancing game re: post-editing a serial in general. And you’re more likely to need that editing if you’re going chapter by chapter, instead of having it there all at once.

That being said, I think the pros are worth it? At least for me? I’ve been doing it this way for well over half a decade now and I still love it so much that even though it would probably be smarter for me to quit serials and only focus on publishing novels, I choose serials over novels in general. (And therefore publish books rarely, but serials frequently).

The good sides are that I get more immediate feedback than someone writing an entire story at once. That just feels really great. Comments make the world go around.

There’s also extra engagement. Cliffhangers are evil and FUN. Getting asks wondering what’s happening next are awesome! These things can potentially happen if you’ve already finished the serial, and are putting it up chapter by chapter too - that’s true - but I feel like there’s an immediacy when I’m replying to comments literally within like, two weeks of having written that chapter. Versus months or years later, when I’m less engaged in the story as the reader.

Sometimes there will be a push in the comments that let me see something I wouldn’t have seen on my own. For example, I didn’t expect so many people to not understand humiliation as a kink in Eversion, and getting that realtime feedback collectively from a lot of people (even people who read things like Game Theory without blinking) allowed me to adjust the story and include a section where Luuk breaks down Connor’s humiliation kink with Connor, so that readers can actually explicitly see why Connor likes it so much, experiencing that in Connor’s words and from his own perspective. i would never have thought to do that otherwise.

While solo comments don’t influence the major decisions in the story (I just love them), there will be comment trends that let me know: which side characters people are really loving - I’ll sometimes spotlight them a little more as a result (Flitmouse and Anton both got way more ‘screentime’ because of how people responded to them), which main characters people are appreciating / enjoying, who people are getting annoyed with. And I can make very in the moment changes when I sit down to write the next chapter, that don’t interfere too much with the structure of the book, because I don’t have it all finished in front of me at the point where I sit down to the write the chapter.

I like the improvisation factor! I like not always knowing exactly what is coming from week to week! I enjoy the spirit of Works in Progress from a fannish perspective. That is, I really like it - as a reader myself - when I read other WIPs from authors and get to enjoy the creative process with them as a reader. I get to see what they’re thinking, they might leave a few personal notes in the author’s notes, I get to comment if I feel like it, I get to be a part of fandom! And I feel like...this is a particularly fannish experience that I really love specifically through AO3.

Honestly writing the whole serial at once and then posting it chapter by chapter feels...weird and not really a part of that fannish process in the same way. (Which isn’t to take away from anyone else who does this, but it doesn’t work for me!)

And I guess finally, if I wrote something completely in advance, then...I have a book. Or a series. Why wouldn’t I just...publish that as a book or series of books? Instead of a serial of chapters? I suppose I figure like, if I’m going to do it all at once, then I might as well just...publish a book all at once. Idk why my brain works that way, but it does. :D

I feel like maybe I’m missing something (you’re probably thinking: but how Pia you just wrote so goddamn much and it basically only amounts to a tl’;dr of you being fucking needy for comments), but that’s about the sum of it! :D I’m glad you’re enjoying the writing!