Dispensationalism is a so called theological scheme for interpreting the Bible which purports that history is divided into multiple ages called "dispensations" in which God interacts with his chosen people in different ways. Dispensationalist claim there are seven dispensations; Innocence, Conscience, Human Government, Promise, Law, Grace, and Divine Government. There are no proof text to support this.
Dispensationalism is not a type of theology, it is actually a form systematic paltering, which is the active use of truthful statements to influence a targeted victim’s beliefs by giving a false, misleading and distorted impression of The Bible, God’s Holy Word. This systematic paltering of Dispensationalism was systematized by John Nelson Darby and the Plymouth Brethren in the 1800’s. It began its spread in the United States during the late 19th century through the promotion efforts of James Inglis, James Hall Brookes and Dwight L. Moody, the programs of the Niagara Bible Conference, and the establishment of Bible institutes. With the dawn of the 20th century, Cyrus Scofield introduced the Scofield Reference Bible, by which dispensationalism stained the minds of Christians in the Western World.
1 Thessalonians 4:16 | For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, & with the trumpet of God, & the dead in Christ will be the first to rise.
1 Corinthians 15:52 | in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, & we will be changed.
do not slice & dice verses out of context, nor deny what is plainly said within a verse that destroys the concept of a pre-tribulation rapture
Revelation 19:11-16 JESUS grand return as King of kings, and Lord of lords. When does tribulation take place: Before of after JESUS’ return?
Here's what we agree on: JESUS returns once, JESUS return after tribulation, and rapture is definitely mentioned in the Bible.
This verse spells it out loud and clear as JESUS returns (after tribulation), and at the trumpet of GOD the dead in CHRIST is raptured 1st.
Revelation 1:7 | Behold, He is coming with the clouds, & every eye will see Him—even those who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. So shall it be! Amen.
If obsessing about the timing of the rapture rather than the
assurance of salvation, please ask GOD how to help you find peace.
As to reasons for suffering through the tribulation?
2 Thessalonians 1:5-7 | All this is clear evidence of God’s righteous judgment. And so you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering. After all, it is only right for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, & to grant relief to you who are oppressed & to us as well, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels
John 15:20 | Remember the word that I spoke to you: ‘No servant is greater than his master.’ If they persecuted Me, they will persecute you as well; if they kept My word, they will keep yours as well.
Romans 8:17 | And if we are children, then we are heirs: heirs of God & co-heirs w/ Christ—if indeed we suffer with Him, so that we may also be glorified with Him.
What about verses from Revelations?
Revelation 7:13-15 | Then one of the elders addressed me: “These in white robes,” he asked, “who are they, & where have they come from?”
“Sir,” I answered, “you know.”
So he replied, “These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes & made them white in the blood of the Lamb. For this reason, ‘They are before the throne of God & serve Him day & night in His temple; & the One seated on the throne will spread His tabernacle over them.
Why does the Bible speak about all this?
Matthew 24:1-12 | As Jesus left the temple & was walking away, His disciples came up to Him to point out its buildings. “Do you see all these things?” He replied. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.” While Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will these things happen, & what will be the sign of Your coming & of the end of the age?”
Jesus answered, “See to it that no one deceives you. For many will come in My name, claiming, ‘I am the Christ,’ & will deceive many. You will hear of wars & rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. These things must happen, but the end is still to come. Nation will rise against nation, & kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines & earthquakes in various places. All these are the beginning of birth pains.
Then they will deliver you over to be persecuted & killed, & you will be hated by all nations because of My name.
At that time many will fall away & will betray & hate one another, & many false prophets will arise & mislead many.
Because of the multiplication of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold.
But the one who perseveres to the end will be saved.
Pretty consistent message across the board, especially from JESUS!
Second Seal: Conflict on Earth | Revelation 6:3-4
3 When He opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature saying, “Come [k]and see.” 4 Another horse, fiery red, went out. And it was granted to the one who sat on it to take peace from the earth, and that people should kill one another; and there was given to him a great sword.
Most debates about the rapture are simply framed between Pre-Tirbbers and Post-Tribbers (with the latter sometimes claiming they don't believe there is a Rapture at all, however absurd that is), with Mid-Trib/Pre-Wrath/7th Trumpet type views not being taken too seriously and just written off as compromises. Thing is there are different layers to the Rapture debate, and Mid-Tirbbers rather then being normal compromisers, in my case at least agree with the Post-Tirbbers absolutely in one area but with Pre-Tribbers absolutely in another.
The first part of this thread was about were I agree with the Post-Trib camp, that there are things that must come first. But now I want to address were I agree with the Pre-Tribbers. And that's the issue of if there are "Tribulation Saints", people saved after the Rapture who aren't part of The Church, but are Saved before the Millennium begins.
First I want to refute the favorite argument of certain Post Tirbber's I've seen. That's a focus on the connection between the Rapture and the Resurrection. The First Resurrection and the Second Resurrection are categories more then a chronological sequence.
The First Resurrection is the Resurrection of the Saved and begins with Yeshua, then Matthew 27:52&53 says "And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many." Some want to label this only a temporary resurrection like Lazarus, but that would have been nothing new, this is being cited as a sign that the Redemption has been achieved. Also this is why Yeshua descended into Hell, to take the saved that had been collected in Abraham's Bosom, Yeshua's descent into Hell is scripturally supported by Matthew 12:40, Acts 2:27-31, 1 Peter 3:19-20, 4:6, Romans 10:6-8, and Zechariah 9:11.
So we know the First Resurrection isn't all at once, that is the first phase, then the Rapture, then any Tribulation saints or any others left at the start of the Millennium. Revelation 20:4&5 is only referring to the Resurrection of Tribulation saints specifically Martyred for not taking The Mark. The Second Resurrection happens mostly at the end of the Millennium, but that The Beast and The False Prophet are thrown alive into the Lake of Fire without needing to be killed first suggests to some that they may be early partakers in the Second Resurrection.
Basically, they insist there is no Biblical basis for saying that anyone but Jesus himself is Resurrected prior to Revelation 20. The problem is it makes no sense for that Resurrection be the same one Paul Spoke of. Paul Spoke of the Dead in Christ Rising FIRST, and then us being gather with them all simultaneous with his Coming on the Clouds. In Revelation 20:4 and 5 these individuals aren't Resurrected until after Jesus has been back for awhile, after Armageddon is already done and the Beast and False Prophet taken care of.
When Jesus returns riding on a White horse he has Resurrected Saints with him, but those clearly, chronologically, can't be the ones Risen in Chapter 20, who rise latter.
The Two Witnesses also Rise at a different time. in Chapter 11. And in Chapter 14:4 the 144,000 are spoken of as if already Resurrected. "These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb."
Recently, I noticed something interesting. Revelation 21 treats New Jerusalem as synonymous with The Bride of Christ. First verse 2 says "I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband". That could be purely a poetic expression, the big thing comes latter in verse 9 "Come hither, I will show thee the bride, the Lamb's wife". New Jerusalem descends at the start of the New Heaven and New Earth. So the implication of that is that The Bride isn't on Earth during the Millennium. So that means there is no way you can make those "Tribulation Saints" refereed to as being part of the Millennium a part of The Church.
As I said before, Ecclesiology is a factor. A notable majority of Post-Tribbers hold some form of replacement theology , which Romans 9-11 refutes. The Church and Israel are separate covenants (and Salvation is separate from either of those), not all Saved are apart of either, and some will be part of both. Or even if they don't strictly believe in replacement theology they still don't understand the Uniqueness of the Church, including our promise that we will not go trough God' Wrath. I'll make an entire thread on Ecclesiology some day.
The thing is Pre-Tribbers have this idea that God can only deal with one at a time. Israel was still the main focus of Acts for several chapters after Pentecost. As I just said some saved people get to be part of both Israel and The Church this starts with the 12 Apostles themselves who are promised that they "shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matthew 19:28 and Luke 22:30.
I think it's possible the 144,000 are part of that overlap, they like the Two Witnesses shall lay the the ground work for Israel's national salvation during the First Half of the Tribulation. Their literally of the 12 Tribes and so are definitely Israel biologically/nationally, not just a metaphorical or spiritual Seed of Abraham. The Gentile spiritual Seed of Abraham is mentioned at the end of Revelation 12 where it refers to saints of the second half of the 70th Week.
Revelation 14 speaks of them in terms that can seem like uniquely Church/Bride of Christ imagery. And refers to them as "Redeemed fro the Earth" and as "The first fruits" suggesting their already in their Resurrected state.
So that is why I've come to favor the Mid-Tribulation or Pre-Wrath view.
