#rain world lore

[theinsideofablackhole]

(Rain World) complete-ish story analysis of The Watcher

The Watcher is a contentious DLC, but it’s also got the richest story Rain World has ever told. This long ass post dissects The Watcher’s narrative with a specific focus on its central question:

When the world beneath your feet cracks and crumbles, will you hold on to all you once knew? Or dive into the unknown?

This post goes through the main story and picks out important elements to form an overarching reading of the whole DLC. It also doubles as a general recap to make sense of The Watcher’s more cryptic storybeats, but it’ll overall be a lot less confusing if you’ve played the whole thing yourself.

⚠️ SPOILERS FOR THE WHOLE DLC (v1.5 CONTENT!) ⚠️

Nothing lasts forever. It all decays, crumbles, disappears. Let me re-frame that core question: in the face of great upheaval, will you cling to a dying past? Or embrace the future, and become something new?

Think about this question as you read. It will tie things together.

Spinning Top: childhood lost

Formation of the “watcher” identity in intro

And through the middle of it all, a lonely lost slugcat trying their best to outlast the ravages of a warped world.

Watcher’s story begins with their childhood getting cut short. An unknown slugcat attacks their family. Watcher’s parent and sibling run up to fight the attacker, but Watcher cowers behind a tree, too scared to act.

The unknown slugcat likely killed their targets. But Watcher, who lived due to their fear, learns a violent lesson: to survive, you must distance yourself and hide. Watcher is taught a survival mechanism that involves inaction; passively observing their world—hence the name, “Watcher”.

As a result of the reclusiveness beaten into them by nature, Watcher is lost and lonely. It’s implied that they yearn to return to a safe home with companions, so when they meet Spinning Top, an attachment to the Echo quickly forms.

Spinning Top wanders into Watcher’s reality

Typically, an Echo is a terminally aloof being. They barely pay slugcats any mind, only using them as an audience for the Echo’s strange musings, and then send the rodents off with a small gift.

Spinning Top, the Echo of a child, shares that same deeply detached personality. When Watcher first meets them, they jeer at how funny it is that Watcher excretes, and how the slugcat will eventually meet the same sorry fate as their own shit. Spinning Top is so divorced from corporeal existence that it’s the most interesting thing they see in Watcher.

But Watcher is not deterred. Spinning Top is a potential companion and friend, and despite the Echo’s jaded and strange nature, they embody a spark of childlike kindness that appeals to Watcher. Spinning Top makes an effort to genuinely talk to Watcher despite the latter not having the gift of communication, and Spinning Top’s gifts are greater than Karma, as they attune the slugcat to the ripples that constitute the countless realities of the world.

Watcher resists detachment and searches for their companion

Eventually, Spinning Top pulls Watcher into a complete mess of strands, connected together not by gates but by tears in reality. Here, Watcher is lost. Each world offers a completely unique threat: burning fire, flaying winds, churning floods, and ruthless swarms. None of these places offer Watcher the familiarity or safety of a home. When they do return to the closest thing to home—the base game regions—Watcher finds them consumed by corruption. Watcher will never find any anchor of comfort here.

And as Watcher’s control over the ripples grows, their capacity for detachment becomes even stronger. They begin to actively tear apart the fabric of reality around them, drifting randomly through worlds at their own will. The nature of their camouflage is revealed to be Ripplespace, a layer of reality where Watcher is truly, truly alone. If anything, Watcher’s powers only enable their detached, evasive, and fearful tendencies even further. Why shouldn’t they just resign themselves to hiding in a corner of Ripplespace forever?

In spite of this development, Watcher pushes against their passivity. Spinning Top acts as a sort of anchor against the madness of the strands, a familiar friend who offers kindness. Long ago, Watcher froze in the face of peril. But now, every time Spinning Top disappears, Watcher follows and follows. They no longer simply survive and observe, but actively take risks and explore. And by utilizing the same listless powers as their friend to achieve this, Watcher comes to understand how their struggles overlap and empathizes with Spinning Top.

Spinning Top’s dream - left behind

When Watcher reaches maximum Ripple, they dream of a void. Suddenly, their old family passes by them, happily running up to a great golden light in the distance. Watcher briefly chases after, but like the violent memory from long ago, they freeze in their steps. Their family is gone, and Watcher is alone again.

When Watcher relives their tragic past, their family is quickly followed by hordes upon hordes of slugcats, all darting into the light. This foreshadows Spinning Top’s own struggle, a child whose entire species ascended while they alone remain. Watcher’s ripple powers seem to deepen their empathy, manifesting an impossibly accurate picture of their companion’s pain.

The children move onward

Watcher’s journey to find Spinning Top also begins to affect the Echo as well. The presence of a companion reminds Spinning Top of their long-lost “creche days” among mothers, fathers, and fellow children. Eventually, Watcher even joins them in the lonely plane of Ripplespace, and it is this that prompts Spinning Top to face their past.

In their former bedroom, Spinning Top reveals a sorrowful hypocrisy. They find corporeal life to be an undignified soup of proteins and acids, and yet they endlessly yearn for the warmth and comfort of their childhood. Spinning Top is scared to let go of it all. None of their loved ones stayed behind as fellow ghosts, and the only individuals who did were other aloof, afraid ghosts. Spinning Top is no exception.

One child learns that they’ve stagnated for far too long, and they must move onto whatever comes next. Spinning Top accepts the unknown, and disappears into the white door of ascension.

The other child learns that it’s okay to take action; to embrace the childlike joy and curiosity that they’ve beaten down for so long in order to survive. Watcher dives into Spinning Top’s toys, and old scars begin to heal.

Both children learn to grow and mature. They do not languish in the grief of the past, and accept the hurdle of change that they must bring on their own.

Prince: twisted regression

What if Watcher went the other way? Instead of maturing, what if they clung even more desperately to their old desires?

The Rot is easily the most potent symbol within the story of The Watcher. This section is the longest.

The unfortunate mess

Nothing lasts forever. It is an indiscriminate, all-encompassing fact of life that everything eventually declines and dies. The Rot is the most pure form of this idea: it is a mindless mass that consumes everything it touches. “After a point it’s all like this”, Spinning Top states when in a rotted basegame region.

Watcher’s story develops on this in a very interesting way, where a certain strand of the Rot has evolved and become sentient. The Sentient Rot is capable of spreading across the ripples and consuming the entire world, but most notably it is spread specifically via the actions of other characters. Spinning Top accidentally carries it into the basegame map because they are childish and reckless, and Watcher intentionally spreads it hoping that it will help them reconnect with their past (something to be discussed in more detail soon).

The Sentient Rot holds the “living memory” of the things it consumes, allowing it to “protect” the past—or at least a twisted version of it. As such, Sentient Rot infestation becomes a symbol for a character who is “stagnating”. Instead of accepting losses or looking to the future, they remain attached to old desires and woes. As time passes, these desires become harder to obtain, and slowly destroy the individual who clings tight. This self-destruction is the Sentient Rot consuming their surroundings.

Consider how Watcher’s exploration through the basegame map is quickly consumed by the Sentient Rot. With this in mind, Watcher getting sent across the ripples by Spinning Top becomes a blessing in disguise. Even though the sudden change brought great confusion and commotion, it was their only escape from the infestation. If Watcher was given the option to stick around, they would’ve literally been devoured by their desire to return to the past (that is, their family & home). The whole prologue is a fairly literal depiction of Watcher’s core question: hold onto the past, or dive into the unknown?

Additionally, the Sentient Rot also does not disappear when Watcher hides in Ripplespace, because the rot of stagnation is a fundamental struggle. Watcher can hide from outside dangers in their bubble of isolation, but it’s not enough to escape the festering from within.

The birth of Prince

After performing a wrong warp, Watcher eventually ends up in Outer Rim. No region identifies with the concept of decay quite like the rim. Physically, it’s at the edge of the world. Temporally, at the edge of time. All life, all development is gone. This is the perfect place for the Sentient Rot to fester, which begins to ironically grow a great tree in the bowl of a starcatcher to the west.

Watcher climbs up this tree, named The Throne. When Watcher reaches the top, they are given a Karma Flower that allows them to leave, at the foot of a giant Rot bulb. Whatever thread they escape into is then infested with Sentient Rot. If Watcher returns, they’ll find another flower, and a new path, and a chilling, painful voice. The entity inside the Rot bulb, having suddenly gained a sense of self, now speaks to Watcher, describing how it evolved from a mindless mass to an enlightened, singular individual. And then, when fed enough, the bulb hatches.

Prince, having just been born from the Rot of all things, is too naive to give any weight to the concepts of suffering or conflict. They view Watcher as their savior for “feeding” The Throne and helping bring Prince to life. They dote over Watcher, laughing and cheering even if the slugcat pelts them with rocks and spears. The Throne even grows an entire shelter to cater to Watcher’s needs.

Prince’s dream - Watcher is enticed by rotten comforts

After Watcher meets Prince, they experience another dream. They wake up in a dark sea and swim toward a light, surfacing into a warm forest identical to the one they grew up in. Visually, the sequence reflects Prince’s ascension into a singular individual with a supposedly higher purpose, now able to perceive a world they love and crave.

However, the presentation of the dream shows that Prince strikes a sinister emotional chord with Watcher. The slugcat feels alone and lost, but Prince is an adoring companion who offers a familiar home, not unlike the tree that was ripped away from them. In Watcher’s eyes, The Throne is an opportunity to return to how everything once was. No longer wandering, no longer alone. Would it really be so bad if Watcher strengthens this bond, and helps their new friend flourish?

Watcher spreads the infestation to every pocket of reality that they can reach. By desperately striving to secure a friend and reunite with the past, they have ravaged their whole world. But what do they have to show for it?

Prince, the oxymoron

Prince leads an oxymoronic existence. On one hand, Prince believes they are an “evolved” or “mature” individual. Like the iterator(s) that the Sentient Rot has consumed, Prince tasks themselves with ending the cycle. However, they consider themselves “something new”. They are allegedly aware of how the iterators failed, and they believe that they are more capable of actually succeeding than the iterators ever will be.

This is where Prince’s naivete creates a critical misjudgement. Despite having a technically “evolved” form, Prince seeks to achieve their lofty goal via the most regressive, basal method possible: consume everything, across all spacetime. The iterators sought to create a path for all life, no matter how simple, to grow and improve spiritually. Prince effectively seeks a devolved form of the task by dragging the world down into a primal state of being, driven solely by hunger.

Prince’s most dire mistake, however, is that they want to secure a perfect, unchanging state where everything can be preserved. In their words, “a living memory of all life, forever!”. Nothing lasts forever, not even the horseman of death itself. So when Watcher spreads the Sentient Rot further across the ripples, Prince’s kingdom eventually loses control of itself—and like a balloon popping, Karma Flowers erupt from the Rot. Prince is paralyzed, and their dominion ends with a whimper.

Watcher is tragically left in a worse position than when they started. They chose a path of stagnation: after indulging in companionship and comfort that was too good to be true, they ended up alone in a rotten wasteland of their own making.

Weaver: learning adulthood

Even if the Sentient Rot has infested every region and effloresced, Watcher can continue. It is possible for them to rebound, and follow a greater path.

Watcher stumbles upon a godly mentor

When Watcher tears open their own warps, it catches the attention of another entity. Returning to the region, Watcher finds the warp closed by The Weaver. They are a booming, godly figure who seeks to restore order to reality. Upon their meeting, Weaver thunders forth a strange metaphor to Watcher:

CONSIDER: A droplet of rain pierces the still water. A ripple, A ring, ever expanding.

Within the cosmos, Watcher’s life expands outward like the ripples of a droplet: in every direction there is a different parallel self, a new possibility of Watcher’s existence.

CONSIDER: Movement along the circumference of a ring. From one eye a loop, from one eye a spiral, from one eye the motion of a line.

The cycle is driven by movement along the ring of a ripple. This experience is deeply personal, and it can be perceived in completely different ways. The previous species never came to a consensus on how it worked, after all.

CONSIDER: A second drop. A thousandth. A multiplex of rings, spirals, interacting in countless ways. A froth. A seeth. An effervescence of disruption!

Every single living being has their own droplet, their own ripples, and these countless instances of life intermingle and tangle to create reality itself.

NOW: An understanding. A path. A purpose. Movement along the line, from distant to origin. From spiral to loop. From loop to point. An understanding!

Weaver teaches Watcher about a new path; a higher calling than flitting across strands. Watcher can escape the impending ruin of decay by seeking ascension. Somehow, Watcher can unravel their ripples, pulling them back into the starting position of the droplet, and this will unite their alternative selves into one. Watcher can ascend.

For a normal slugcat, their alternative selves are separated by different physical bodies. By rising their Karma and entering the Void Sea, a slugcat will dissolve their physical body, allowing for all those selves to individually reunite as one at their metaphysical origin point - The Egg.

Watcher’s situation is more complicated. Spinning Top gifted godlike powers to Watcher, but the slugcat is also supernaturally blocked from pursuing ascension. Watcher’s ripples are all tangled by the warps that cross between them, which keeps the slugcat trapped in this not-corporeal, not-incorporeal state.

Watcher grows, and their scars heal

Through their meetings, Weaver passes down their divine gifts onto Watcher. The slugcat gains the ability to banish the Sentient Rot, seal all warps they travel through, and cleanly warp without creating a tear. And for every warp Watcher sews shut, Weaver assists them by sewing another warp of their own.

Consider how the metaphor of ripples connects to the world map; a big tangled ball with the Daemon “droplet” at the center. Watcher’s world map is quite literally an extension of their own self (or more accurately, selves). Watcher is marked by a great deal of trauma and struggle, which twisted and tangled their world into one full of tears in reality. Weaver is effectively a mentor figure who teaches Watcher to both help the world around them whilst healing themselves, which comes in the form of dispelling the Sentient Rot and closing the warps.

After all the warps have been closed, Watcher is transported to... the beginning of time, possibly? The specifics aren’t too important. Here, they find the Weaver, who gives their final teaching to the slugcat:

Two big, beady eyes.

The specific meaning of this reveal is extremely open, but I see it as Weaver trying to convey the similarity between Watcher and Weaver, as the two characters’ eyes are nearly identical. In spite of the immense difference in size, powers, and metaphysical knowledge, Watcher has begun to close the gap. It is possible for a little slugcat to achieve the very same radiance.

And then, Weaver is gone.

Ascension: growing up

In computing, a “daemon” is a background process which lies dormant when not in use. Within the region of Daemon, Watcher can find three pillars which correspond to each of the main characters. The left pillar awakens when Spinning Top departs from the world. The right pillar awakens when Prince is born. The central pillar awakens when all of the warps are closed. Awakening all three pillars causes Daemon to initiate the final act of this story.

When considering the requirements to awaken Daemon, and the events that soon follow, it is implied that the function of Daemon is to unlock Watcher’s metaphysical evolution—the daemon drives ascension.

Watcher gains closure

Movement along the line, from distant to origin. Weaver's teachings become reality. Watcher is torn to the beginning of their journey in Hydroponics, and then Outskirts, and then to the endpoints of their three companions. Spinning Top and Weaver are gone; they accomplished what they wanted and moved on.

Prince’s conclusion is particularly special. Watcher meets Prince in a crumbling, sloughed Throne. Prince is happy to see their friend one final time, and grants them a parting gift: the mark of communication. Prince proclaims that they are more similar to the iterators than they once thought.

Prince granted enlightenment to Watcher. This act is plainly antithetical to Prince’s old ideology of embracing animalistic chaos, but there is beauty to this contrast. Prince was once the epitome of “spiritual immaturity”, and they were gravely punished by the universe for this. But even an individual like Prince can mature and develop, rising from that state of ultimate failure. Now, Prince sits among a bed of Karma Flowers, in harmony rather than conflict.

Finally, Watcher is returned to the tree of their childhood. Overall, this sequence is akin to Watcher gaining closure on their old life, as they approach the cusp of what lies beyond.

The truth of the ripples

In this final sequence, the underlying fabric of reality is revealed to us: the ripples and cycles are caused by rings of countless selves, which orbit throughout the cosmos. These rings are managed by the Daemon monoliths, which are the proverbial “droplet” in Weaver’s teachings.

Earlier, Watcher set the stage for evolution, and now their awakened Daemon performs its function. It rearranges their ripples into equilibrium, making them all truly parallel. Every single one of Watcher’s selves are now in the caves of Depths, on a united path to ascension.

The Choice

As every single instance of Watcher dives into the sea, they are no longer bound to the limits of the cycle. Watcher could ascend, transforming into something new, or they could cling to the decaying old world and haunt it as a ghost.

Watcher is offered a choice: will they hold on to all they once knew? Or dive into the unknown?

Watcher embraces the unknown. In the beginning of the story, Watcher’s childhood was ripped away from them. Here, they choose to leave—and enter adulthood. They ascend, evolving into a young god.

Closing remarks

Watcher's world crumbles around them. Their family dies, their old lands are consumed by Rot, and they are spat out all over the earth. Transformation is thrust upon them.

Watcher can refuse to acknowledge their new existence. They can attempt to "freeze" the progression of the world with the Sentient Rot, but the world simply continues along, now damaged. Ultimately, their best choice is to accept that things have changed, and to look toward the future. By doing this, Watcher helps a friend along their own journey of self-acceptance. They mend the world around them, mend themselves, and eventually evolve into something greater, something that they truly desired.

Through the pain and the confusion, they embrace the unknown.

Thanks for reading! There's a lot of finer details within The Watcher that have their own analytical juices and wonders, but I wanted to only focus on the broad-strokes elements here.

Watcher has a whole lot of pretty crazy lore that simply didn’t fit into this post. Why are worms such an important physiology to this world? Why do I think all ascended beings become Void Worms? What’s the deal with the Elder Ripplespawn? What about stardust? What in the world is a Bone Shaker? I might make another big post like this, specifically about my favorite details and theories.

[mewguca]

Differences in FP and LTTM's Characterization in Downpour vs. Vanilla

Opening

This post was initially a series of "slides" I made in response to stalkiwi_X on twitter, ( @stalkiwirw on Tumblr) who asked:

"I'm genuinely curious because I played RW for the first time when Watcher came out, and even tho I played all the vanilla campaigns before installing the MSC expansion, I don't see or understand what is contradictory or mischaracterizing in how Downpour wrote the Iterators?"

"Maybe I'm sort of biased because I'm quite attached to the characterization Downpour gave us (after all, it expanded MUCH MORE on the Iterators and their relationships), but yeah it's an opinion I've seen a lot, except that everytime I saw it it came off as some sort of elitist take like "yeah I'm an OG and I hate the DLCs and the changes they did to the real game" which isn't really helpful for me to understand."

That last part is why I made this; I wanted to help my viewpoint (which is in varying respects shared by others) be understood. I know a lot of rw discourse can get heated and haughty, esp on twitter. But I digress. I'm going to do my best to communicate this once again.

First, I must clarify: I'm restricting the scope to Moon and Pebbles. I know there are people who dislike the writing of the Iterators in DP as a whole, but that is not me. I care about Downpour's characterization of LTTM and FP, as I feel it does not capture them well. The changes to NSH and SRS are of far less concern to me (at least in a vacuum) as their characters in Vanilla / Base Game (I use these terms interchangeably) are far less established.

That being said, I think part of the reason this discussion may be difficult to understand is the muddiness — Because Vanilla is more ambiguous and open-ended and implicit it is difficult to point out direct Contradictions / Mischaracterizations, and a lot of the discrepancy lies in the method of delivery and the overall design philosophy behind the respective games. Also, James did not write the dialogue for DP, so that's the biggest difference, obviously. And I admit I remain steadfast in the two being distinct artistic works. It is inevitable that these two do not feel the same.

Still, I do think the characterizations have some key differences, and I'd like to point them out / explain why I don't like their approach (though you can ignore this part).

1. Seven Red Suns' Involvement (And how it affects FP)

I think the biggest change is probably in SRS and FP's relationship and subsequently the nature of Pebbles' actions. (This is unfortunate, since Suns is woefully underutilized outside of Spearmaster's campaign -- but that's assumedly due to logistical issues given More Slugcats (Downpour) was a collection of mods made by several people and not a singular cohesive vision. I digress; we must focus on the topic at hand).

Downpour follows, primarily, the story of Five Pebbles and Looks To The Moon. We explore, through various points in the Timeline, the states of FP and LTTM and the progression of their relationship in the aftermath of Pebbles' experiment. This should be clear-cut: Pebbles (nearly) kills Moon; he is consumed by guilt, moon heals; the two eventually reconcile. Pebbles is forgiven for his wrongdoings and Moon receives closure and further healing from the reconciliation. But now there is another guilty party, and that complicates things.

In Vanilla, SRS is hardly noteworthy. Moon calls them Pebbles' friend, and Chasing Wind says that Suns is one of the few people Pebbles listens to. Pebbles seems to respect them, and he seeks their guidance on at least one occasion.

Sky Islands 1 (More Slugcats Expansion Dark Green Pearl (SI_west)) "This one is an old conversation between Five Pebbles and a friend of his. I'll read it to you." (Moon) "1591.290 - PRIVATE Five Pebbles, Seven Red Suns FP: Can I tell you something? Lately... FP: I'm tired of trying and trying. And angry that they left us here. The anger makes me even less inclined to solve their puzzle for them. Why do we do this? SRS: Yes, I'll spell this out - not because you're stupid or naive... Also, not saying that you're not ~ FP: Please, I'm coming to you for guidance. SRS: Sorry, very sorry. I kid. Fact is, of course we are all aware of the evident futility of this Big Task. It's not said out loud but if you were better at reading between the lines there's nowhere you wouldn't see it. We're all frustrated. FP: So why do we continue? We assemble work groups, we ponder, we iterate and try. Some of us die. It's not fair. SRS: Because there's not any options. What else CAN we do? You're stuck in your can, and at any moment you have no more than two alternatives: Do nothing, or work like you're supposed to. SRS: An analogy. You have a maze, and you have a handful of bugs. You put the bugs in the maze, and you leave. Given infinite time, one of the bugs WILL find a way out, if they just erratically try and try. This is why they called us Iterators. FP: But we do die of old age. SRS: Even more incentive! You know that nothing ever truly dies though, around and around it goes. Granted, our tools and resources get worse over time - but that is theoretically unproblematic, because in time even a miniscule[sic] chance will strike a positive. All the same to them, they're not around anymore! FP: I struggle to accept being a bug."

They don't seem all that influential on FP, at least, not explicitly. FP seems to have strong opinions of his own, playing off Suns' expressions of the more common perspective of their peers. It's possible that Suns is something of a Mentor to FP, but they're not described as such here; more emphasis is placed on them giving FP space to express his ideas. (Implicitly; again, they don't have much of a presence in Vanilla. You could interpret them as an important Mentor or more as a Confidant. It's hard to clarify this without it being clunky, sorry.)

side note: I see this misunderstood quite a bit; it was the perceived inevitability of the Iterator's success that defined their creation; in part, it also influenced their creators' decisions to leave. <- Though, it should be noted that "mass ascension" was a Gradual Process, and by some point the population grew so small as to be unsustainable. Anyways, I feel it is a common misconception that the Iterators were seen as "doomed" by their Creators, and thus an act of cruelty. .

But that is a topic of discussion / analysis worth its own lengthy post, one that accounts for the nuance of intent versus outcome (and thus how Iterators have been Impacted / Feel about it) and of the distinction between those directly responsible for the Iterators' creation and those that came after, as well as for the variety in perspectives and experiences of citizens otherwise.

Subterranean - Dark Magenta (SB_ravine) ... "1681.662 - PRIVATE Seven Red Suns, Chasing Wind CW: Have you had any contact with Five Pebbles recently? SRS: Not in a long while actually! Unless worrying about him counts. CW: One of his neighbors, Unparalleled Innocence, sent an overseer to his can and got some images. They were made public in the local group, in an effort to be mean I suppose. There's no other way of putting it - he looks awful. SRS: Tell me. CW: He's got the rot, very badly. Big cysts have become mobile and are scattering down the west and middle legs. He does listen to you, and few others by now, so you should talk to him. SRS: I will try to contact him. Does Moon know? CW: Moon has been unavailable for some time."

On the whole, though, Suns is largely uninvolved with FP's Local Group. Suns is mostly here to provide background info on Iterators and inform us (the player) of FP's situation with the rot. Their role is expositional.

This is not something Downpour changes (afaik), but something people can miss - Seven Red Suns is not part of the same Local Group as Five Pebbles, as they were not aware of the Rot before Chasing Wind's contact. They're also not present in the Group Convo about Erratic Pulse. (Though, neither is Unparalleled Innocence.) Alternatively, Suns is a turbo-hermit, but this is far less likely.

By contrast, their role in Downpour is crucial. They're the one who encouraged FP to look into more unconventional / controversial theories, and that's how FP found himself in those anonymous groupchats chasing after Sliver Of Straw's success.

Garbage Wastes - Deep Viridian (GW) (Five Pebbles, Artificer Campaign) "This is one of my own pearls, or at least part of it. ...It was not until I met Seven Red Suns, and learned about Sliver of Straw that I began to break out of my shell. Most of my old theories went out the window, and others evolved once I started talking in those anonymous groups. And then... I made a mistake, and I cannot forgive myself for it. I was desperate... angry... I wanted a way out. My way out! And that came at the cost of everything... I thought I could do it quicker... it was taking too long, I almost had it! I did not anticipate she would... And then, I hurt the one person who I thought understood what I was trying to do... Please leave with this. I don't want to think about it anymore. Not until I've recovered."

Sky Islands - Dark Green (SI_west) (Five Pebbles, Artificer Campaign) "This is an old conversation between myself and a close friend who I considered a mentor. We have... Not spoken for a long time now. I can't bring myself to do so. Not after what happened between us. None of them understood my theories, but Suns, they trusted me. They risked so much trying to help me, and I hurt them. It's only now, after I've had so much time to think on it, that I understand why I was so angry. I lashed out, because out of everyone, they were the last individual I wanted to confront me about my mistakes... I can't go back now. All I can try to do is recover and try again. I have to.

side note: I wish his emotional conflict with Suns was better expanded upon; this has a lot of potential. His dismissal of his real victim (Moon) in favor of his friend (Suns) is also interesting. I wonder if Pebbles having Pearl Dialogue in Rivulet could have capitalized on this; I think his emotional recognition could have developed into understanding and empathizing with Moon's feelings, rather than just acknowledging he fucked up and saying he can't run from his mistakes (without further reflection). Again, this is off-topic and a consequence of logistical issues, I imagine.

They're also the only one Pebbles could trust with this sort of information openly. This is an extension of their Vanilla characterization as previously mentioned.

Honestly, I think this dynamic is interesting, and I think there was missed potential with how it went unexplored after Arti campaign. And if this dynamic was all that DP added / expanded on, I don't think most people would mind (though it'd still be diff from Vanilla obvi). But...

The issue is in the Execution. It's not that Suns was an Enabler or stood by idly while Pebbles discussed his plans to break the self-destruction taboo. Instead, THEY provided Pebbles with the methodology to do so, and it is framed like FP wouldn't have done so / wouldn't have been able to had Suns not provided it for him.

Chimney Canopy - Gold (CC) (Five Pebbles, Artificer Campaign) "This was a gift from a close friend. It is instructions on how to remove the self-destruction taboo..." (the rest of this is not relevant to this discussion and is being cut for brevity; I may address my extended thoughts another time.)

They Already Have - White 1 (LP_0) (Spearmaster Broadcast, Pre-Pebbles) [LIVE BROADCAST] - PRIVATE Seven Red Suns, No Significant Harassment SRS: I can't stop dwelling over mistakes that I've made. I could just delete those memories of course, but that feels irresponsible. NSH: Oh? What kind of mistakes are we talking about here? SRS: I once gave someone some... sensitive information... the kind that could be dangerous if acted on. SRS: Yet I should have known they weren't in the right state to use that information responsibly. NSH: I take it you won't tell me the content, or to who. SRS: No, I will not, out of respect. NSH: Look, if you ever want to talk about it I can. We can share this little problem of yours. We were made to solve them after all! NSH: You're worried they're going to get themselves hurt by messing it up? SRS: They already have.

Plan in Motion - White 2 (LP_1) (Spearmaster Broadcast, Pre-Pebbles) [LIVE BROADCAST] - PRIVATE Seven Red Suns, No Significant Harassment NSH: It's pretty clear to me who you're talking about. Though I won't say who, out of respect ~ SRS: Please don't mock me, this is serious. SRS: The fact is, he really looked up to me. As much as I gave him a hard time, that's not something I took lightly. NSH: You're not the only one worried about him. I understand your position, but blaming yourself isn't productive. SRS: I understand that. I truly do. At this point we need to be taking action. NSH: I agree, but unfortunately there's not much that we can do being locked up in a box. NSH: Even less so that he's cut off all communication and is rejecting all help from the outside world. SRS: That may not be an issue, necessarily. I've already set a certain plan in motion...

side-note: the parallel to SI_west here is neat.

Humiliated - Gray 2 (LP_1_PEB) (Spearmaster Broadcast, Post-Pebbles) [LIVE BROADCAST] - PRIVATE Seven Red Suns, No Significant Harassment SRS: I'm just so frustrated. SRS: I feel like I've doomed not one, but two iterators. SRS: And in the whole process I've lost a great friend, who won't even let me help him. NSH: We make mistakes, it'll be okay. You know Five Pebbles really looks up to you. SRS: Yes, I know that, but... NSH: I think he's scared. Scared, and humiliated. Unparalleled Innocence spreading the news probably made him feel even worse. SRS: ...I think you're right.

It is framed like Suns is, at least in some part, GUILTY for what FIVE PEBBLES did -- Or, at least, it is framed like it is understandable for them to feel guilty, and their guilt is the driving force of the Spearmaster campaign.

Downpour has shifted the burden of Pebbles' guilt (in part) onto Suns, and it has undermined Pebbles' agency in the process. So what were once Pebbles' actions in Vanilla are now the actions of Pebbles AND Seven Red Suns, creating a big distinction between the two. To clarify, it is not impossible that these events may have occurred in the Vanilla Canon, but the focus is never shifted from Five Pebbles regarding the guilt of his actions. Therefore, he has greater agency for said actions, whereas this is compromised is Downpour to focus on a broader conflict.

*Of course, you don't have to subscribe to the idea that Suns has any fault in Pebbles' actions, He's a grown man who can make his own decisions, but the framing of Pebbles in the rest of the campaign makes this more difficult. This leads into...

2. Pebbles' Heightened Immaturity

I think this is probably the MAIN thing that fans of Vanilla Pebbles dislike about his Downpour counterpart. I'm not a Pebbles superfan by any means, but it's also a point of contention for me. It ties into his diminished agency, and it weakens the primary emotional conflict for people like me who value Vanilla for being more grounded and realistic.

I think the intention was for the audience to view Pebbles as Responsible for his actions (given Suns' involvement disappears by the time of the Reconciliation ), but it is undermined by just how Juvenile Five Pebbles is made out to be. He feels like an Angsty Teenager, and that makes it feel like he is less responsible for his actions. You get the impression that SRS, as his Mentor, should've guided him better.

I think this is also why some people victim-blame Moon; she is uniquely parentified here (we'll get into that) and thus it feels fairer to act like she had a Responsibility to control his actions. <- I should note this is almost certainly NOT intentional; it's just an unfortunate accident, much like the impact of the Monk and Surv OE endings. Again, I should clarify that not all fans fall into this trap. It is also influenced by external societal factors (Downpour came from FANS, after all; it took from fanon! Moon's Parentification and Pebbles' Infantilization would exist regardless!), but the text itself nonetheless encourages us to see FP as comparatively juvenile.

Big Setback - Gray 7 (LP_6_PEB) (Spearmaster Broadcast, Post-Pebbles) [LIVE BROADCAST] - PRIVATE Seven Red Suns, No Significant Harassment SRS: I remember talking with Five Pebbles not too long after he was first put online. He had a bit of defiance, even back then. SRS: It was an odd situation, to be certain. It's quite rare for one iterator to be made the administrator of another. Just as rare as them being built right next to each other. NSH: His lack of appreciation used to bother me. Moon was a great big sister to him! SRS: Yes, absolutely. However, Five Pebbles had a very strong drive for independence. He was never one to want to be told what to do. NSH: I think a lot of us were like that in the beginning. I remember being in that phase a very long time ago. It takes many iterations for our world views to develop and for us to realize the flaws in those lines of thinking. NSH: Unfortunately, from what I've seen, Five Pebbles seems to have plateaued at that phase. SRS: No, that's not true. I was helping him to get past it. We were making good progress, actually! SRS: The current situation, however, is going to be a very big setback...

The "Big Setback" Broadcast makes this pretty clear. Five Pebbles is alluded to being stuck in a "Phase" most Iterators encounter early in their lives. It's not difficult to understand how this makes him seem less mature than his peers. Suns is also said to be trying to help Pebbles get past it, placing them firmly in a coaching role. (Or, that is how Suns perceives themself, at least; this guy is honestly a pretty shit mentor and that patheticness is worth broader appreciation I Feel (luna propaganda). Still, the hierarchy is made clear, and we do not see it challenged by anyone except arguably Pebbles himself, albeit weakly.)

Garbage Wastes - Light Green 2 (Chatlog_GW1) (Spearmaster Broadcast) [[LOST HEADER INFORMATION]] - BROADCAST unknown group(NULL) No Significant Harassment, Big Sis Moon NSH: Moon? It's me again. NSH: I do not know if you are receiving these. Please signal in any way you can. NSH: I need to talk to you. I need to know you're okay. ...NSH: It's difficult for us to assist you over this distance. NSH: Even more difficult for us to do anything in the midst of these tantrums...

And NSH describes Pebbles as throwing tantrums. You know, like a child.*

*Sure, NSH may not be word of God, but we have so few active characters that when both SRS and NSH reinforce this view and when LTTM continues to define herself as FP's Big Sister (as opposed to a more equal status) it colors our perception of Five Pebbles as distinctly immature or juvenile.

There are also several mentions of FP looking up to SRS or mentioning / alluding to hierarchy or seniority or his relative juvenile status in some form (Broadcasts: LP_2, LP_1_PEB, LP_5_PEB, LP_6_PEB, Chatlog_GW1, Chatlog_LM0; Pebbles' Arti Pearls: SI_West, SI_chat4, etc). sorry i would like to move on you get the point

The other point is that this is not characterization present in Vanilla; Moon's status as group senior is not unique to FP (I'll touch on this in a minute), and his Behavior is different.

Side Tangent: FP's Flat Affect

an oft-overlooked component of FP's (Vanilla) Character is his relatively flat affect. He's more expressive in Downpour, in tandem with his heightened immaturity. This distinction is likely why his Voice feels so different between the two. Even in his more emotionally charged moments in Vanilla, he tends to express himself a certain way. We also see this style replicated at times in DP, though his outburst in Spearmaster is difficult to forget.

Five Pebbles - Spearmaster Encounter Dialogue "Suns...? Why did you send the messenger here again? Please leave, I cannot afford any further distractions; I am the only one who can fix this now. I trust that you understand me... You've brought your overseer all this way, the least I can do is read your message aloud for it. "Pebbles, I send you this message as your concerned and long time friend." "Unparalleled Innocence had sent an overseer to your can, and we've all observed the state that you are in. I know this is my fault, I should have foreseen you'd be too desperate to escape your situation to do things in proper moderation." "For that I'm very very sorry. However, please, don't disable your communication modules. You don't have to go through this alone... everyone has been trying to contact you, We only want to help you..." "The behavior from your can has become erratic, it's not healthy, and it is not going to solve your problems. We have lost all communications from Moon as well, and have reason to believe her facility may be suffering irreversible damage from your attempts to fix yourself." "I know better than anyone how you can be about these things, but it doesn't have to happen this way... please respond back." Astounding. You could never understand what I feel right now, being pitied and lectured like this! What use would your help be? Your benevolent charity is what got me here in the first place! I wanted to find my own way out, and now I sit here rotting because of you and Moon! I'm not just another bug wandering your worthless maze! I will reach my own solution, without any of you! Get out! GET OUT! ..."

His tone is desperate and loud; his shame, frustration, and resentment are on display in a very direct way. He seems burning with anger. I think this specific interaction contributes a lot to the view of FP as particularly emotionally expressive, or more crudely, as "tsundere" instead of "kuudere" (gross oversimplification).

In contrast, his Base-Game portrayal is far more muted in his expressions:

Sky Islands 5 (MSC Dark Magenta Pearl (SI_chat5)) ..."BSM: As your senior senior I plead BSM: stop Five Pebbles: You could not have chosen a worse moment to disturb me. You have ruined everything. BSM: please Five Pebbles: I almost had it. I will never forget this."

Scene with closest emotional stakes

His anger is quiet yet firm; he makes strong statements that are expressed more neutrally, as if he were relaying the simple facts of the situation. He's quite cold.

Five Pebbles - Common Dialogue (Vanilla) Lingering Too Long That's all. You'll have to go now. LEAVE. Little creature. This is your last warning. Returning to the Chamber You again? I have nothing for you. I won't tolerate this. Leave immediately and don't come back. You had your chances.

closest he gets to the spearmaster crashout in terms of Vanilla expressiveness, probably (???)

He really doesn't shout very often, is my point. Base Game seems very hesitant to give him an exclamation mark. though admittedly the sample size in Vanilla is smaller, so take that into account if you like. Again, it is difficult to argue Direct contradictions in many cases.

that's enough about Five Pebbles, though. Sorry, this is already terribly long. Let's talk about Moon!!!!

OP says,

"Maybe I'm sort of biased because I'm quite attached to the characterization Downpour gave us (after all, it expanded MUCH MORE on the Iterators and their relationships)..."

Which, on paper, is fair. I get that. Objectively, this is at least true for Suns and Sig, (and Pebbles, though in a Different direction), and it was certainly the intent for Moon. But ironically, I think my problem with Downpour Moon is that it feels like it doesn't expand on her as a character; in fact, it reduces her.

DP has a lot of opportunity to expand on her character, but it feels like it almost never tells us anything actually new or insightful about her character, and when it does add new things, it's usually to further Restrict her. Her personality begins and ends with "Big Sister", and this is never meaningfully addressed or deconstructed. (I apologize; this is where my critiques become louder and more biting. I do believe this to be true, however, and so it must be addressed as a key distinction between Vanilla and Downpour.)

3. Big Sister Moon (and Moon's De-Prioritization as a Character)

We're here for changes, so here's the Big One: Moon being Pebbles' unique Administrator and Big Sister.

Simply put, Moon is not in a unique Administrative Position over FP in the Vanilla game.

Big Setback - Gray 7 (LP_6_PEB) (Spearmaster Broadcast, Post-Pebbles) [LIVE BROADCAST] - PRIVATE Seven Red Suns, No Significant Harassment SRS: I remember talking with Five Pebbles not too long after he was first put online. He had a bit of defiance, even back then. SRS: It was an odd situation, to be certain. It's quite rare for one iterator to be made the administrator of another. Just as rare as them being built right next to each other. NSH: His lack of appreciation used to bother me. Moon was a great big sister to him! SRS: Yes, absolutely. However, Five Pebbles had a very strong drive for independence. He was never one to want to be told what to do..."

this is unique to Downpour!

In Vanilla:

Sky Islands 5 (MSC Dark Magenta Pearl (SI_chat5)) I remember this. It isn't pleasant reading. But if you must hear it, this is what it says: "1654.116 - PRIVATE [FORCED] Big Sis Moon, Five Pebbles BSM: Immediately lower your groundwater consumption to one fifth of the current intake. BSM: Stop whatever it is you are doing. BSM: Please stop! BSM: As your local group senior I order you you you you you you BSM: As your senior senior I plead BSM: stop Five Pebbles: You could not have chosen a worse moment to disturb me. You have ruined everything. BSM: please Five Pebbles: I almost had it. I will never forget this."

Sky Islands 3 (MSC Dark Purple Pearl (SI_chat3)) ... "1650.800 - PRIVATE Five Pebbles, Chasing Wind, Big Sis Moon, No Significant Harassment CW: this is in confidence, but apparently a pseudonym "Erratic Pulse" has appeared on a nearby Sliverist conversation with ideas about personal ascension. Someone here in our vicinity is trying to cross themselves out. FP: Where did you hear this? NSH: I wish them super good luck in that endeavor. How is it going to happen? Have the overseers gnaw through bedrock until their entire can crashes down in the void sea? BSM: Please be respectful when speaking of the Void Sea. Grey Wind, where did you hear this? CW: I really shouldn't say. He's going to attempt some sort of breeding program. Thought you might want to know. NSH: Haha with the slimers, lizards and etceteras? Surely the answer was in a lizard skull all along! CW: Well, he's not looking for the same thing as we anymore, he's changed his task, so who knows really. BSM: I will try to find him and talk to him. Please don't spread this around! NSH: Moon will go get them! Long live the inquisition!"

Moon's status as Local Group Senior in Vanilla is more Ambiguous, (does she have powers beyond Forcing broadcasts? Put a pin in that) but it doesn't seem confined to JUST Pebbles. Even if jokingly, she seems to have NSH's (and Wind's?) respect, at least enough to let her try and handle the Erratic Pulse Situation.

More broadly, she's also never explicitly named as FP's Big Sister in specific in Vanilla; "Big Sis Moon" therefore is likely more of a Local Group role (assumedly). There is a lot that can be speculated about here, but that is sadly beyond the scope of this post (and I made an at least serviceable post on this already)

I do think Moon and Pebbles' close proximity + sharing water is allegorically is akin to siblinghood, as this seems to be a unique status even in Vanilla. But them being siblings in Vanilla is important more as a lens to explore the breakdown of their relationship and the subsequent fondness for one another they hold in the aftermath than it is about Moon specifically being Pebbles' Big Sister and Pebbles being her Little Brother.

They're placed more like equals, and in Hunter, Pebbles even refers to Moon as his "friend." A status that is without Hierarchy and is Given Freely. There's so much to say about Hunter dialogue but I will restrain myself (as this post is in dire need of it).

Pebbles also refers to Moon as a "friend" in Rivulet Dialogue, but it feels less impactful here because it is undermined by the (Forced) Broadcast that highlights their inequality and reinforces Moon's Role as Big Sister.

Despite much attention being drawn towards Moon's status as Pebbles' "Big Sister" in Downpour, Pebbles is never (as far as I could find) labeled as Moon's little brother (or even her brother at all for that matter). It is always Moon that is defined by her status as a Big Sister (usually Pebbles' in particular) and never Pebbles defined around his. I don't have a conclusion to this; I just thought it was interesting. (This probably reflects how "Big Sister" is more a more defined / defining Role than that of "Little Brother" in many Societies in real life, and it may perhaps reflect a similar trend in Rain World's World. I also think it is neat how fanon sometimes highlights Pebbles' little brotherhood in spite of this. (Even if I often do not care for the execution)

Downpour sets up that Pebbles exist for Moon's sake (though, more accurately, her Citizens'), yet, ironically, on a meta level, it is Moon who is defined by her relationship to Pebbles and not Pebbles by his relationship to Moon. In Vanilla, Pebbles' construction next to Moon is a matter of convenience, an arbitrary decision that results in drastic consequences down the line. You would think they would perhaps explore this massive difference in how it affected both Moon and Pebbles, but, despite the rich emotional conflict Base Game sets up with Moon and her relationship to her parents, we only get a brief aside about Pebbles ' thoughts on the apostate controversy and (admittedly fun) dialogue exploring his fondness for his creators' culture / art. But this is to say nothing of Moon's Obligations towards her siblings or how Pebbles may have felt overshadowed or anything you would expect an Obvious Sibling Dynamic to explore. It is also to say nothing of Moon in general, really.

I could make an entire post about the wasted potential of their relationship in Downpour that is simultaneously highlighted and yet woefully under-explored, but I must try to keep things concise here. I didn't mean to make these points so long oops

Administrative Power

Anyways, this change also makes Moon have more Power over Five Pebbles than before, which places a weird amount responsibility on her over Pebbles' actions and makes it stranger that she doesn't do anything to protect herself.

Tragic - Gray 6 (LP_5_PEB) [LIVE BROADCAST] - PRIVATE Seven Red Suns, No Significant Harassment SRS: I just don't understand... why hasn't Moon done anything about the situation herself? SRS: She was appointed as Pebbles' superior. She has the power to stop him. NSH: I've been very close with Moon, and I can tell you she is incredibly caring. NSH: And while her kindness is one of her greatest attributes, it is also to her detriment. SRS: Isn't this excessive, though? Surely she at least has a sense of self-preservation. NSH: I'm sure she convinced herself that she could help Pebbles. That she could bring him under control with words rather than forced action. NSH: She's probably still trying that now, unless her systems have degraded past the point of even allowing that. NSH: That's why this is so tragic to me.

side note: put a pin in the NSH message

We see that Moon is non-confrontational in Vanilla as she avoids taking action until the last minute, but she ALSO calls for help!! And it's possible that she couldn't DO anything BESIDES forced broadcasts. She's passive, yes, but she's not suicidal!

Sky Islands 4 (MSC Olive Green Pearl (SI_chat4)) (Moon, Vanilla) "It's me writing to the local iterator group. I have no memories of this..." "1654.110 - PUBLIC Big Sis Moon to Local Group BSM: Two cycles ago, my neighbor Five Pebbles drastically increased his water consumption to four times the normal amount. He has been unresponsive for a period of time longer than that. The two of us share groundwater, and I have been without water for almost a cycle. BSM: Any attempts at communication have been met with complete silence, and my situation is becoming increasingly dangerous. BSM: I ask the local group for information about when you were last able to contact him, and to try to use those same communication channels again, repeatedly until you get a response. I will be clear on this - if he is not persuaded to stop whatever it is he's doing, I will die. BSM: Before that happens, I will utilize my seniority privilege and use forced communications, hoping to shake him out of it. Forced communications in the network will be unpleasant for all, and I will wait as long as possible before I turn to that option." And now here I am, to my waist in water and getting drowned on the regular.

Her tone is firm and formal; she speaks with authority. Her anxiety is also clear, highlighting the precariousness of her situation. You can also see that she is non-confrontational as she views forced communications as a last resort --- But because her capabilities are ambiguous, it's also reasonable to assume that this may be the strongest action she can take, and so she is not simply doing nothing.

On a side note, it kinda feels like this broadcast gets overlooked in Downpour. It's unfortunate, because I feel like it accomplishes a lot for character work, exposition, and worldbuilding. But I guess only Pebbles received it? Also, for some reason, SI_chat5 is missing from Moon's Spearmaster dialogue pool? Or maybe it's just the wiki.

Lacking Emotional Depth/Range

I should say that, on paper, I actually don't mind Moon being more of a doormat! There actually is such a thing as being "too nice". While I wouldn't say it is because of Kindness, which is STILL one of her greatest strengths, you can be too nice to people, too passive, too capitulating, and not kind enough to yourself. I'm a professional doormat myself, at times, I would know!! But the thing is... I also experience emotions, like a person. I want to be kind, yes, but not all of my feelings concern placating or comforting other people. I have other feelings! And Moon has other feelings, too, or at least she did in the Base Game. But we don't really get to explore Moon's feelings in Downpour. We don't get any insight into how she felt about dying beyond being Mildly Scared and Really Sad, but like in a Sage way because she basically already accepted her death by the time Spearmaster meets her. Her final broadcast isn't asking for help or her expressing her deep-seated emotions; it's about making sure everyone else feels better about her DYING.

Spearmaster - Dark Red (Spearmasterpearl) [LIVE BROADCAST] - (ANNOUNCEMENT) Big Sis Moon to Local Group BSM: This will be my final broadcast to the local group. BSM: Within several cycles my structure's legs will fail. Even if Five Pebbles were to calm, the damage has already been done. BSM: I can only hope that someday you will all find the answer to our great question. BSM: I do not think I will see that day. I want to thank everyone for trying so hard. It means a lot to me that you would all go to such lengths.* BSM: ... BSM: I can't excuse his actions, but I understand his frustration. We all share that. I only wish we had the chance to speak one last time. BSM: Thank you, everyone, I am happy to not be alone.**

* Genuinely why does she say this? What does this have to do with her at all? When has she ever expressed a personal vested interest in the Big Problem? She's been stated to have Tried Very Hard, (DS Pearl) but it's not a matter of particular pride. It's a bittersweet statement. It feels like an empty platitude. Maybe this is simply poor wording; it's possible I'm overly nitpicking and she meant trying to help her. But unless this is an error in the wiki, I feel it is fair to criticize this confusion.

**There's a lot of potential complexity in this line, given she is alone. The messenger is going to leave her, and she's going to collapse for a painful, indeterminate length of time before any real help arrives, IF it does. Which she doesn't seem to think it will. Maybe she's so desperate that this small gesture is truly comforting and makes her feel less alone. I'm sure it is. She just wants to be heard, and she surely values the company of everyone around her. Maybe she's said this doing the Iterator equivalent of biting back tears, trying to be grateful for the tiny rays of brightness in a terrible, churning darkness that's about to swallow her whole. Perhaps she's mourned herself in this moment, and perhaps that slipped through her brave face. Perhaps she may have even meant this in tiny part, as an ironic statement. But given the rest of this DLC, I am unsure how much of that complexity was intended. I like it, though, as I'm able to draw out that potential complexity nonetheless.

She expresses one personal wish, one personal request that isn't "please everyone be happy", in the entire Broadcast. (Arguably you could count "not being alone"; company is something she appreciates elsewhere. But the framing is questionable). And this, too, could be fine --- The fact that Moon feels Obligated to placate and comfort those around her and to never show her negative emotions to her group because she feels responsible for their emotional wellbeing COULD be really interesting! But this isn't a struggle she grapples with; it's Moon's default state of being, and it's never really challenged. When NSH points out that Moon's too kind for her own good, it feels hollow because it is never followed-up on or explored. I guess you could argue that it's explored in the Vanilla Dialogue, but that feels like a cop-out. This isn't Vanilla; this is Rain World: Downpour. It's a different game with a different philosophy, and Vanilla's ambiguity and subtlety doesn't work for what Downpour is trying to convey --- what Downpour DOES convey --- with its more Direct dialogue.

Regardless, Moon's lack of emotional depth and lack of interiority remains a sore point. But to tie this back to Version Differences, I'd like to point out how Moon has a greater emotional range in Base Game, and how Moon's lack of range in Downpour makes her feel distinctly flatter.

Take this Spearmaster Pearl Dialogue:

Looks to the Moon - Light Yellow (DM) Oh! This is one of my pearls. Did you extract this from my Memory Conflux? While I value your curiosity, I would prefer that you don't move things around or steal items from this facility. I try to keep everything as organized as possible, so that I don't forget. I value my data and memories quite a lot, it would be a tragedy to lose them! As for the contents of this pearl... it's a large batch of my personal notes and research. I don't have the time to go over all of this with you, nor do I think you would gain much from it. Could you please just put this pearl back where you found it?

She is literally dying. She is DYING. She is speaking to a RAT!!! Why is she comically polite?? Like. Yes. She is very respectful. But why is she so calm about it? Would she not freak out even a little? Would she not enforce herself even a TINY bit more than this??? Like, you know, Unintentionally?? Because her composure might slip from her DYING???? She's speaking like she's drafting a business email to Politely (and softly) ask her Coworker to give her back her stapler or something, which is bizarre, given the circumstances.

I get this isn't critical dialogue, but this isn't the only example of her lacking emotional range in Spearmaster. At most she stutters a few times (Spearmaster Encounter) and urges Spearmaster to hurry (Spearmaster Following Encounters), but she never really freaks out like she does when you harass her in the Base Game sometimes. See:

Moon Dialogue - Returning after an Interruption (Fifth time) If Looks to the Moon has more than 3 neurons left "If you behave like this, why should I talk to you? You come here, but you can't be respectful enough to listen to me. Will you listen this time? Look at me. The only thing I have to offer is my words. If you come here, I must assume you want me to speak? So then would you PLEASE listen? If not, you are welcome to leave me alone. Now if you'll let me, I will try to say this again."

Moon is respectful, but she's also noticeably stressed. She pleads with the slugcat somewhat desperately. She's trying to stay calm, but it's difficult for her because of her poor state and the extra strain the slugcat is adding onto that. See the difference?

side note: All Moon has to offer in her collapsed state IS her words. And she likes speaking, clearly. Why else would she read us all these pearls and ask us to listen? So, whenever she threatens not to speak with us, it's a very serious thing. And it also makes it so much worse when she loses her ability to speak properly (from neuron loss). this isn't related to anything, but it makes me happy to talk about Moon's character. :) i havea migraine

also i recognize this is the Fifth time but she has a LOT of dialogues to pick from that showcase her getting upset or freaking out or frustrated or etc and yet she is almost perfectly calm in spearmaster campaign despite arguably being in a more stressful state

We'll address another example.

Moon Dialogue - First Encounter After Receiving Mark of Communication If Looks to the Moon has 4 neurons left "Oh so you've returned. Come to take more from me? My memories, my thoughts... just something to fill your stomach? No... never mind. It's useless to be angry at an animal following its instincts. Once, a single neuron meant nothing to me... I see that someone has given you the gift of communication. Must have been Five Pebbles, as you don't look like you can travel very far... He's sick, you know. Being corrupted from the inside by his own experiments. Maybe they all are by now, who knows. We weren't designed to transcend and it drives us mad. I'm still angry at you, but it is good to have someone to talk to after all this time. The scavengers aren't exactly good listeners. They do bring me things though, occasionally..."

This is a Great example to showcase Moon's complexity. We see how she tends towards passive-aggression rather than direct aggression; we see her retract it, reflect, and move forward; and we see her express her feelings, acknowledging her anger, but also acknowledging her desire for company and to have someone to listen to her. She shows emotional maturity here, and, in combination with some other dialogues, a hint of emotional repression. There is a lot of depth expressed in just this one little except of dialogue! It's a strength I hope to someday replicate in my own works.

This is why I speak of missed opportunities. Meeting Moon pre-collapse should be new and exciting, but what we get is just a watered-down version of her. She's there to be a tragic martyr figure you feel bad for instead of an actual Person with feelings and wants and Interiority like the rest of the cast. The Most we get is watching her scream every so often as her chamber loses power, but that doesn't really express anything abiut how that powerlessness makes her feel. We don't get to see her verbalize her fear, her anguish, her despair, her anger, her resentment, her sense of loss --- and I really don't know why. We don't explore this in any of the OTHER campaigns, either.

She addresses a "long-since faded" anger in the rivulet ending broadcast, but we never get to SEE this. Like, I'm not one of those "Moon should be angrier!! Revenge is girl boss!" people. I don't think Moon should be overly Resentful or hateful or unforgiving. But anger is a [human] emotion, and she feels [human] emotions!! We get to see her frustrated and passive aggressive towards the slugcat; why don't we ever get to address those messy feelings towards her DEATH? It would mean more to see her actively suppress it or learn to let it go than to have it skimmed over like it never happened.

All of these changes (and my issues with them) culminate with the ending of Rivulet's campaign. Unfortunately, we end this campaign with Moon reinforcing her Role as the Big Sister who serves to comfort and heal others before herself.

I don't think it would make sense for Moon not to forgive Pebbles; it is very important that she does. I would argue Moon forgives him even in Vanilla; the way she speaks of him and her ability to understand his feelings through the neurons combined with who she is as a person + their shared circumstances makes it pretty clear. Furthermore, making the best of a bad situation and being able to grow and change are themes we see throughout Rain World as a whole (basegame and both DLCs). I want to clarify this because it is important to me, and forgiveness is a value I want to prioritize more in my own life.

Anyways. My issue with the Broadcast is in the execution; it's rather one-sided in favor of Pebbles' needs. Moon's final request in her dying Broadcast (Spearmaster) is to speak with Pebbles one last time. This is fulfilled, sort of, but it feels hollow when he's not speaking with her. It can hardly be called a conversation, and it doesn't do anything to address Moon and her feelings or struggles or needs. We're so close, yet so far.

Ending Broadcast - Rivulet [DIRECT BROADCAST] PRIVATE, FORCED - Big Sister Moon, Five Pebbles SOURCE NODE TRACE: LTTM_ROOT, FP_COMM04, FP_ROOT BSM: This is local group senior, Big Sister Moon BSM: Limited functionality has been restored to some of my basic systems. BSM: I've regained access to this communications array for the first time since the collapse. BSM: Through my overseers I have also caught up on some of the current events. BSM: Including what i've gathered by reading through my messages and equipment manifests. BSM: I am already aware of the large extent to which the local infrastructure has deteriorated. BSM: I do not know if sending this message will be a futile effort. BSM: Even before the collapse I could not broadcast beyond the extents of my local facility. BSM: And so clearly, this forced broadcast is addressed to you, Five Pebbles. BSM: Is there any chance that i can still reach you, despite the condition we both are in? BSM: I need to know. BSM: If in any chance this message arrives, please signal back if you can find a way. BSM: I know it may be uncomfortable for you to address me after all that has happened. BSM: We've both had a long time to think things through. Any anger I may have had has long since faded. BSM: I don't hold anything against you. If anything, we're both in similar dilemmas right now. BSM: And as your Big Sis, you know how protective I am of you!~ BSM: ... BSM: I'm sorry, Five Pebbles. I'll always be here if you need someone to talk to.

The fact that she spends the broadcast reassuring and soothing Pebbles to the best of her ability despite being the aggrieved party and is Left On Read really bothers me. Pebbles doesn't even properly apologize to her; he just transplants his "heart" and tells her "I cannot run from my mistakes forever; please understand." Which (and this may not be intentional, but the effect still remains) makes it all about HIM and HIS feelings instead of MOON'S. It's always about helping Pebbles! And again, I do think she would do this, but it feels weird that Pebbles, after ALL THIS TIME, doesn't have enough emotional growth to Talk To His Sister Like A Person. To acknowledge how she feels and to treat her like someone of value like he did Seven Red Suns.

You can argue: "He COULDN'T communicate!" And, in the Watsonian sense, this works, but externally, there's no reason this choice Had to be made. Mr. Primate was not holding a gun to the MSC team and forcing them to not let Pebbles communicate back to Moon. And we see them play Dominos post-credits, so one would ASSUME they are capable of communicating in some fashion. And the fact we don't get to SEE this makes Moon's issues feel unresolved --- she starts Downpour by minimizing herself and putting Pebbles' feelings and needs above her own, and she ends it doing nearly the same thing. To be fair, she does take action by forcing a Broadcast --- so why don't we see this rewarded? Why does she have to do all of the emotional legwork? Why doesn't Moon get to be comforted?

It's not enough to see her get her Facility restored; we already saw Moon come back to life in Hunter! See here:

LTTM Dialogue - Returning after placing the Rarefaction Cell (Rivulet) Ah! Sleek little one... Did you do this? I feel as if pulled out of a deep sleep. I am still trying to process all of this. It has been so long since I've had a connection like this with my structure. Everything has restarted in maintenance mode... It seems that it has sent out the order for all of my overseers to return. With my umbilical cord broken I can't operate my structure directly, but with them working as messengers I've been restoring some of my chamber's functionality! With any luck, I should be able to... Ah here we go! There is so much here... So much I've forgotten... I'll never be what I once was, but this... I'm sorry. Its hard to piece all of this together. So much has happened in my absence. I only have unread messages, and overseer recordings to make sense of what I've missed. Some of these are even from before my collapse! Incredible... Slag reset keys, a messenger, saving me? No Significant Harassment was never one to give up easy! However I still don't understand everything that has happened. Has it all just been coincidence? Did others send help as well? Then there is Five Pebbles. He was sick even before I collapsed, and his state must have only deteriorated since. It looks like he is barely breathing. If there is any part of him left... I... We were once good friends, despite everything that has happened. He is probably alone and afraid now... If Rivulet spoke to Five Pebbles at any point "I cannot run away from my mistakes forever; Please understand." Five Pebbles, what have you done... I've been given so much already, and now you've given all you had left. It does not matter what happened between us. If he still held the same anger he once did, then none of this would be possible. We've been given the chance to make things right, and he deserves to know what he did wasn't pointless. I'm so thankful, for everything.

She's narrating everything that's happening to us like she's reading a summary off the Wiki. She only gets emotional at the end when she worries about Five Pebbles --- which is fair, but you'd think she'd have more to say than that! Does she not hold NSH dearly in her heart? Does she not miss him? Does she not mourn all the communications they've missed?

There's so much about Moon we just don't get to see, and that's a very bad thing for a straightforward narrative like Downpour. I wish she had the depth she was portrayed with in the base game.

Let me bring the "original" recovery to contrast with: (hopefully my final dialogue quote ^^;;)

Moon Dialogue - Hunter Encounter He... hello Hello little... creature. You... you did this? One moment. My memory isn't responding. I... I have no idea... ...must have been gone for... ... Oh. Little creature... You are not well. I am so sorry to say, but you do not have much time left. If things are as they seem... thank you. I don't know why you spent your... last... remaining cycles helping me. But know that I am deeply grateful. I have known very few beings who could aspire to such a noble thing. You really are... an amazing little creature. I wish I could say I will always remember it. ... Little friend. Perhaps you already know this, and I don't know what consolation it might bring, but... You will wake right back up again.

side note: I wanna re-dub this someday, to do this scene justice. It means so, so much to me. Hunter will always have a special place in my heart.

This is beautiful. It's truly profound, and it's something I hope I never forget. Her speech to Hunter is so heartfelt, and her struggle to retain her memories, even for her most important moments, breaks my heart --- but as someone who has (much much lesser) memory issues myself, it also brings me comfort. Moon is struggling, but even in her weakness, she can bring comfort to a creature that's given her a gift so great it cannot be put into words.

You could say this about Rivulet, but it doesn't feel that way. It feels like Moon is perfect and nice forever and is doing her Big Sister Moon thing --- And that's just not the same.

Closing Thoughts (No Differences Here)

This probably seems like a bleak note to end on --- my praise for Hunter does not sew back the gashes I've torn into Downpour with my critiques. But I'm going to try and end this on a more uplifting note.

Downpour is, at its core, a fan work. It was driven by people who loved Rain World and wanted to create something new with their favorite game, be that in gameplay, in story, in character-writing, etc... Its nature, first and foremost, is as a collection of Mods. As "More Slugcats Expansion" (MSC), to be exact. This in itself is often treated with scorn, but I don't understand why. It was never going to be Rain World 2. It was always going to be something different, and I don't think making it Basegame-Compliant would have made it better. I think that's become apparent, given the (for the purposes of this post) off-topic critiques I've indulged in throughout. But even in its flawed state, I think Downpour is still beautiful by nature of its existence. It is because it is a Mod, because it is a Fanfiction, and because it has been elevated to the status of DLC as an Official AU that it is so beautiful to me. If MSC can do it, why can't you?

Yes, obviously, your mod is probably not going to become the next DLC. I doubt it very much. But if MSC can receive recognition as an AU, does it not inherently give merit to all AUs by proxy? Does it not encourage people to create and to share their own transformative works?

I've seen so many wonderful fanworks that take things I don't have a strong attachment to / interest in (or even an aversion to!) and make them something that reaches my heart. There are so many beautiful pieces of art people have made from Downpour, and they cater to all sorts of fans. There is meaning that is formulated and constructed and transformed from what Downpour made, and even if I don't enjoy all of it, I appreciate that it exists. I'm glad that people continue to create things.

I owe thanks to Downpour for inspiring my own OC Stuff; I wouldn't have felt so emboldened to make my own AU had it not existed, and it has directly inspired some of the concepts I've used. I know this probably sounds overly sappy, especially given I can be quite razor-tongued (and flippant) about the subject. I'm a complex guy, okay? And it gets tiring hating all the time. Rest assured, my grievances are still there, and there are several fanworks I strongly dislike that carry over elements of Downpour. Some, I feel, are legitimately worth critique --- but I believe that would be better done indirectly through another essay than lambasting anyone in particular. I'd like to write a better-educated version of my Moon post someday, for instance. I want to write more Sociological essays about Rain World in general, both from an internal (in-universe) and an external (real-world influences and impact) perspective. That's off-topic, though.

My point is that I am by no means trying to pretend like I like everything or that anyone else should pretend to like everything, either. Though I do think it would help people to learn to avoid things a little more. But, above all, I want to encourage people to create the things they want to see. I've been trying to do that myself. I've also been trying to encourage other people to make things I like when I see it! You should, too.

OP ( @stalkiwirw ) Put it really well:

DP was mostly made by fanon, so if anything can fix it, it's fanon. and honestly, I've been seeing a lot of art, fics, or headcanons that really dwells deeper into the Iterators personalities, and it really shaped how I see them personally.

(sorry I wanted to get permission to include further quotes and that took a while. I also didn't know they had a tumblr. Thank you OP!!!!

This segment was inspired by their comment here!! Though it's also something I feel strongly about in general

Anyways, this whole section can probably be ignored if you're only here for the Post's practical use case as a guide to Characterization Differences. But I appreciate you reading this far if you did. Writing this was fun; I feel like I have a greater appreciation for Downpour's writing after doing it. I noticed a lot more things I liked or thought had potential than I remembered, and it's nice to be more informed on Downpour Lore, since I've always been less-informed on it than Vanilla. And, to take a step back, it's not like the Base Game disappears in Downpour (the campaigns are still mostly there!) so I think it's understandable for people not to see this if they're not well-acquainted with the two games as distinct entities. I know I sure wasn't when I first started. But, also, Vanilla will always be there. Even if you're just interested in the Lore, the miraheze Wiki neatly separates the two, so you can read up on either pretty easily! I recommend checking out the links I put in here. Browsing the dialogue is fun, and you might find some new material for analysis. I'll stop yapping now.

I hope this was meaningful to someone out there. It was to me.

[mebis-reblogs]

after some observation, this is how the farm arrays machinery must've worked

here I made it turn the crop immediately into a pulp for the sake of a cleaner loop, but I do think it most likely was turned into nectar/had the nectar extracted on site

Still, the possibility of the crops being transported as is somewhere else is still there

Reference screenshots under the cut

As you can see, almost all of these machines were aligned with a crop "notch" on the arrays

[heisa030]

Rain world lore moment

[doodlepede]

hey Rain World fans. I'm gonna show you a lore interpretation that I personally have never seen anyone talk about except myself. If you know me as Sliverist, then you know what's up.

Everyone knows the first five Karma glyphs represent the so-called Five Natural Urges. Violence, reproduction, trade and social connection, eating, and self preservation. People generally believe the next Karma glyphs before the tenth are meaningless, but this is WRONG. Understanding this revelation requires seeing the big picture, which I will guide you through.

Rain World really likes to blur the line between organic and inorganic, with the most obvious example being the Iterators themselves, these biomechanical superstructures whose function in large part is outsourced to their "microbe strata" (Purple SL pearl), but it goes even further, into the very world design.

Five Pebbles' internal structure resembles a brain with its many sections all divided into specific regions with specific purposes. His chamber makes the resemblance even more obvious, where you can clearly see the brainstem.

Within Five Pebbles' dark interior swim swarms of colorful neurons which turn white in broad daylight, each one a carrier of information. Often, they are brushed along by cilia lining the computer halls.

The Void Sea writhes with a swarm of beings enormous beyong reckoning which closely resemble real neurons. The void worm that takes interest in the slugcat uses a dendrite to make a tether to drag the slugcat to its final destination.

As the slugcat swims and swims, it is joined by countless many just like it, and together they swim toward the light, referred to in the code as "TheEgg" (VoidSeaScene.cs)

This is the table of Karma, showing every level above Five. Doesn't it look rather like..

dividing cells being crossed out?

In Rain World, birth and life, cognition and enlightenment, death and ascension are all inextricably connected concepts. You might even say they're connected in a cycle. The imagery and themes are rich and complete, integrated fully into the world. This is even without mentioning the voidspawn which also resemble sperm, swimming to the same place. This is why Ascension is the best ending :artiyoy:

[rna-world]

DEBUNKING COMMON RAIN WORLD MISINTERPRETATIONS

The target audience for this was for people who don't know too much about the game as well, so I'm going to explain things that a normal player might already know.

Rain World is known for how it simply throws you into the world with almost no tutorial, and is often praised for it.

But this lack of explanation if you do not go out of your way to find it has also lead to a lot of misinterpretations from those who did not read all the game’s available information, or misunderstood what they were being told. I used to watch some RW lore videos that would explain and summarize these things, and in the past I believed them.

I’ve since stopped doing that after having some time to actually process what I’ve been reading, and I’m here to say...

YOU ARE ALL WRONG ABOUT RAIN WORLD.

Ok, hyperbole. Not everyone believes these, and art can always be interpreted in different ways by different people, and I won’t stop you from having these beliefs. But also, there’s plenty of ingame content which completely disproves most of these unsubstantiated points from those who do not fully research the game before making videos about it.

Looking at you Tale Foundry…

The purpose of this is to pick apart some of the sadly far too common points I’ve heard many times before from Youtube videos, to Tumblr posts, to people I’ve spoken to on Discord.

Starting with my least favorite…

------

“The 5 karma were seen as sinful”

Obvious westernization of a game based off fucking Buddhism aside, there’s no ingame text directly supporting this claim. There isn’t any that says otherwise, but we have good reason to believe this isn’t the case.

The 5 natural urges, as they’re sometimes called, were NATURAL. They were what bound you to the cycle. They never worsened your life or made you a terrible person should you keep following them, but an aspect of life on the same level as suffering or ecstasy.

Hey, I’ll break down the 5 karma and their meanings to show you that they're not just "sins"

I believe the natural urges have 2 different meanings: an animalistic one, and a more “human” one.

KARMA 1 This obviously represents violence, as you see one guy stabbing the other. I believe it also represents competition and intense emotions, For example: Artificer experiencing intense grief and lashing out in violence as a result. It was not the violence that started it, but her emotions. (Yes, its Downpour. But it’s a good point.)

KARMA 2

They’re having sex. They’re fucking. They’re- ok you get it. Karma 2 represents reproduction. But, I also believe it’s desire. Joyful bodily experiences, and such. The 2 figures seen here are in a much more playful pose than if they were simply doing this only to reproduce. No, they’re having fun.

KAMRA 3 Connection. Bonding with others. Yet also trade and personal belongings. Attachment to things that are not yourself.

KARMA 4 It’s mentioned ingame that this represents gluttony It’s overindulgence, you know. Similarly to karma 2, it can also be searching for fulfillment. I'm not particularly good at telling what the meaning of this could be.

KARMA 5 Self preservation. Self preservation can come in many forms, from an animal running away from a predator or somebody getting defensive after being accused of something or being threatened, this one is rather vague about its meaning.

I do this to show that the 5 urges have very NEUTRAL meanings. It being positive or negative is entire dependant on context. They’re not sinful, get out of here with that Catholic shit!

The 5 karmas have both positive, negative, and neutral contexts which they can fit into.

------

“The ancients hated being alive”

The ancients simply hated the cycle itself and its unknowable properties, as well as being much more aware of things like karma and the urges. Rather, they valued being effortless to disconnect themselves from this cycle.

“This was an eternal dilemma to them - they were burdened by great ambition, yet deeply convinced that striving in itself was an unforgivable vice. They tried very hard to be effortless.” – Bright Green Pearl (DS)

Some practices did of course include things like starving yourself, but as mentioned by Moon, these methods proved to be mostly obsolete. Void Fluid fundamentally changed their culture from what we see. Rather, we do see the ancients enjoying life and valuing it in their own way, which is INCREDIBLY important to some of the games themes, but I’ll get into that later.

"[...]'In this vessel is the living memories of Seventeen Axes, Fifteen Spoked Wheel, of the House of Braids[…] Seventeen Axes, Fifteen Spoked Wheel nobly decided to ascend in the beginning of 1514.008, after graciously donating all (ALL!) earthly possessions to the local Iterator project (Unparalleled Innocence), and left these memories to be cherished by the carnal plane.The assorted memories and qualia include:Watching dust suspended in a ray of sun (Old age). Eating a very tasty meal (Young child). Defeating an opponent in a debate contest, and being applauded by fellow team members (Late childhood/Early adulthood).’...and the list goes on. I'm sorry, little creature, I won't read all of this - the list is six hundred and twenty items long.” – Deep Magenta (SH)

There’s quite a lot to pick apart here, I had to cut down some parts short, but even the cut parts have important details. Just not important enough for me to bring up here.

The Memory Crypts we see ingame are… well where memories are kept. The qualia (personalized experiences) is stored within these mutated fleshy neural organisms referred to as “cabinet beasts”. These of course, contain the “living memories” or qualia of those who have ascended. There are people smarter than me who have already covered these ideas of course, so I won't go TOO indepth.

The ancients greatly valued titles and achievements just as us. They still lived normal lives. As well as this, they valued personal experiences and memories of the carnal realm so much they built an entire citadel to store memories.

As we can see as well, Seventeen Axes has quite a lot of enjoyable memories from throughout their life. Eating nice food and winning a debate contest and getting validation from their peers? That sounds rather… complacent with the 3rd and 4th natural urges, doesn’t it?

I do not believe this screams “I hate being alive!” as much as people have made it out to be, and is honestly ruins part of the game’s messages of compassion and personalized experiences, especially in the game’s ending where Survivor dreams of home.

“You have no name. I once had! I was embalmed, adorned, readied for the journey. So proud. There was jubilation! My name was sung, loud and clear. Did they know? That I didn't quite leave, didn't quite stay? Should I be ashamed? That I linger here, where my memories are kept? Should I be ashamed that I now envy your flesh prison?” - Four Needles under Plentiful Leaves

This is leaning into personal theory territory, but...

I personally believe that the ancients were somewhat terrified of the unpredictability of the cycle and the fact that life would always have more suffering in it.

RW’s religion is heavily based off Buddhism. This is well known of course. The Cycle is a variation of Samsara. Now, I’m not Buddhist, and I’ve tried to do my research about some of these topics. Feel free to correct me, I’m simply going off what I know. (Also I'd love to hear what you have to say regarding your thoughts on the game!)

In Buddhism, each new life you could be taken into the body of an animal, or even end up being tortured in hell for a very, very, VERY long time if you made the wrong decisions, which made escaping it as soon as you could seem like a rather reasonable thing to do.

The ancients never fully grasped the scope of the cycle, and the prospects of having your soul wake up in the body of some miserable worm with no memory of your past or any ideas of your future might’ve seemed bleak.

Suffering is inevitable. But that doesn’t mean they hated being alive, like I said before.

------

“Rain World is post-apocalyptic.”

It really isn’t. There was never any apocalypse. The ancients simply left on their own accord, leaving behind their mark on the world that will slowly be buried once again in the ever so present cycle.

“The bones of forgotten civilizations, heaped like so many sticks.” - Two Sprouts, Twelve Brackets

The world is thriving, even. The purposed organisms left behind have evolved and taken over and become it’s own ecosystem.

The iterators are dying though. Dying very slowly, but soon they’ll all decay and everything will move on.

It’s all just another manifestation of the cycle.

------

“The creatures in Rain World cannot die”

This is definitely something I hear from people who haven’t played much of the game and only hear about it from outside sources and watch the gameplay.

Yes, it is easy to believe this. As slugcat, when you die, you wake back up again. This is entirely a gameplay thing and not actually related to the lore. Saying this might seem like I'm avoiding the question at hand here, but the rules that apply to you do not seem to apply to other creatures.

Every creature in the game has a 4 integer ID (it can go higher, but not in a standard playthrough).

This makes every creature you see an individual of sorts with its own randomized values or appearance.

As well as this, creatures spawn from specific marked dens. When you kill a creature that spawns from a certain den, the next cycle, that creature’s ID will never appear again. Instead, the den spawn is replaced by a creature of the same species with a different ID, or a new species entirely.

Through gameplay, you see that the respawn rules that apply to you do not apply to other creatures. I’ve heard many points about how these dead creatures are transported to another alternate universe where they are alive, but I really do not want to delve into that theory. You do that yourself.

Excuse my unprofessional language, but this is kind of stupid. Billions and billions of little timeline splits accounting for every single insect and microbe that dies seems far too complex of a solution. Occam's Razor and all that.

With this gameplay element you see, I also want to give LORE explanations as to why this is incredibly stupid.

1) If death had no impact, the 5 natural urges would not matter

If no creatures died, there would be no point in eating (karma 4), competing with other species (karma 1), or any form of self preservation (karma 5). Reproduction (karma 2) has no role and there would be absolutely no reason to do anything any longer. All natural processes would be useless.

2) Light Blue Pearl

The information received from the cycle is most likely from the Light Blue Pearl, found in Outskirts.

“[...]The repeating mantra is important because it symbolizes the cyclical nature of life and death, and the termination verse is a symbol for ascension above and beyond it. I don't know how familiar you are with the nature of life and death, but I imagine like all living creatures you have some intuitive knowledge? Then you know that death isn't the end - birth and death are connected to each other like a ring, or some say a spiral. Some say a spiral that in turn forms a ring. Some ramble in agonizing longevity. But the basis is agreed upon: like sleep like death, you wake up again - whether you want to or not. This is true for all living things, but some actually break the cycle. That doesn't apply to you or me though, you are too entangled in your animal struggles, and for me not breaking that cycle is an integral part of the design. Our mantras keep repeating.”

“Then you know that death isn't the end - birth and death are connected to each other like a ring, or some say a spiral. Some say a spiral that in turn forms a ring.“

This line is very misunderstood. Moon specifically mentions birth and death. She mentions death. She never brings up the notion that nothing truly dies either.

As well as this, Moon says that “some say”, implying that even the ancients weren’t sure what the cycle was either. This is more important to my point regarding how the unfathomable nature of the cycle was why the Ancients were so averse to it from above, though.

------

“Sliver of Straw found the solution.”/"There is/isn't solution"

No she didn’t.

.

.

Ok fine I’ll explain.

If you’ve played Rain World you know that the purpose of the iterators is to find the solution to the “Great Problem”, the problem of how to ascend ALL living creatures.

You’ll also know Sliver sent out the Triple Affirmative…

“[...]affirmative that a solution has been found, affirmative that the solution is portable, and affirmative that a technical implementation is possible and generally applicable. She's also one of few that has ever been confirmed as exhaustively incapacitated, or dead. We do not die easily.[…]” - Pale Yellow (SL)

After sending out this affirmative, the iterators became conflicted. They never could figure out if she really ascended and had found the solution, or if it was some sort of catastrophic error.

The answer to the Great Problem is clearly intended to be as obscured as possible. There cannot be an answer one way or the other. The themes of it and the endless tolling of the iterators would not be as impactful if we knew there was or wasn’t a solution.

“[...]Either way, after that these different factions developed, as well as a huge forensic effort to recreate and simulate Sliver of Straw's last moments. Some of the simulations were wrapped in a simulation wrapped in a simulation, in case something dangerous might happen. Nothing much has come from it.[…]“ - Pale Yellow (SL)

Here’s my favorite way of explaining what I mean…

Imagine Schrodinger's Cat, the famous thought experiment. There’s a 50/50 chance that when you open the box, you either find the Solution, or find out there is No Solution.

Except you cannot open the box. And the box is entirely theoretical and nobody’s seen it. It seems impossible, but maybe one day you’ll find that box. That’s what the Great Problem is.

Sliver apparently having found the solution would have completely broken everything. Five Pebbles wouldn’t have ended up hurting himself and Moon had Sliver finding the solution been known with certainty. He was taking a shot in the dark.

------

“Ascension is akin to suicide.”

I strongly believe this point harms the role that ascension and the void sea play in Rain World’s narrative. Ascension is meant to be a final destination, a goal you build up to and prepare for when you’ve lived every bit of life you possible could, and can now move on.

Bringing up the Memory Crypt pearl from earlier, Seventeen Axes lived an incredibly fulfilling life from what we see, and ascended happily.

As well as this, Buddhism strongly encourages those who wish to liberate themselves to discover their own path, which is also subtly shown through the gameplay, as there are many many routes you can take to Five Pebbles, Looks To The Moon, and The Depths.

I do also think this is why Five Pebbles failed. He tried to brute force his way to ascension.

Suicide implies that ascension is only meant to be a fruitless escape and that it’s wrong to ascend. I… do not want to go into why suicide is bad. It’s a strong topic and I’m just here to talk about video games. But ascension is a neutral thing that you can choose to do or not do and to wait until you’re ready.

------

Conclusion...

I really only have the time to cover these 6 misconceptions, and I believe it should be enough. There have been many others I’ve seen, such as the ancients being malicious or that there weren’t any civilizations before them, but there’s not as much to say about them, and they aren’t as common.

Rain World is a very confusing game. I’m not upset at people who think these things to be true, and I do not believe they’re stupid or don’t have any media literacy. I just wish that the people who did actually cover this game did some more looking into it, and actually discussing it with Rain World fans.

Also I should say, that during this entire discussion I have avoided talking about Downpour- RW’s DLC- as it’s more of a official fanmade project. And so much of what it says may not be entirely in line with Vanilla. Because my life isn’t easy and of course there has to be an incredibly divisive and confusing thing like this that I need to avoid bringing up so that way the conversation isn’t muddled.

Thanks if you managed to make it through all this by the way

[dragonpropaganda]

Rain World Lore Iceberg

Verified by a team of insane lore scholars and one low level, peripheral DLC developer

[grunckle]

Slightly terrifying thought! What if the void worms aren't normally right under the Void Sea's surface?

There's a method to call earthworms from the ground in real life called worm grunting or worm charming. It involves sticking one stake with carved grooves called a "stob" into the ground, and rubbing it with another stick to create the vibrations that causes the worms to come to the surface.

This idea seems to have already been floating around Joar's mind around the time he was in the early days of Rain World development. One piece from his portfolio in 2013 was called, "Calling the Spirits" and involved the concept of worm grunting, though with an expected weird and surreal aspect to it. It was also reminiscent of other concepts and even designs that made their way into Rain World.

I'm sure you know where I'm going with this. The drills definitely evoke the same vibe, extending all the way down to the Void Sea shore. Moon even states how the benefactors tried putting them deeper, but they were broken by a "force" unknown to them. Maybe void worms normally reside in the depths of the Void Sea, but were called up by the actions of the Benefactors.

What this would actually entail? I genuinely have no idea, it's just a thought I had, but I'd be interested to hear if people could expand on it.