Given that the “If YouTubers Were Honest” video seems to be the breaking point talked about by both Dream in his stream and Tommy in his recent podcast, I kinda wanna talk about it a little more for a second.
(note: I haven’t seen the podcast because I refuse to pay and missed my opportunity when it was on YouTube but here are a couple summaries/transcripts of both it and Dream’s stream from two different pastebins).
First off, personally, I don’t even find the video funny. (I mean the best part is arguably the Philza rap, but anyways.) Clearly, Dream was massively hurt by it, as he says in his stream and as evident by the scathing text messages he evidently sent to Tommy afterwards. But I don’t think it’s hard to see why he’d be hurt. It’s already a painful situation, he’s already under fire from fans and then this just makes it worse. Dream and his family are currently dealing with doxing and scary things, meanwhile Tommy thinks it’s a good idea to make a video joking about it? wtf. That’s messed up any way you spin it in my mind. You can say the qsmp fans weren’t the people coming after Dream but we know this isn’t true, you can say the video didn’t make that big of a difference but it has 2.2 millions views so I hardly think so. If we know anything about the internet it’s that often humor goes over people’s heads.
The biggest argument made by Tommy that is also mentioned by Tubbo recently, is that the video is satire, and a joke so it was supposed to be funny and not taken seriously. But here’s the thing, satire is based on truth. It’s using irony, sarcasm, exaggeration of truths widely known in a humorous way to humiliate someone or a group of people, often to point out a flaw or corruption and such. One of the most famous satires is A Modest Proposal by Jonathan Swift which suggests that in order to solve the problems of poverty in Ireland the poor should butcher their children and sell them for food for the rich. This is ridiculous, but also based in truth right? Ireland was actually dealing with poverty and starvation as a result of over population so why not eat the children. Technically, as ridiculous as it is, it is still based on truth even if an extremely over the top answer with crazy reasoning. But technically speaking, it would solve the issues that exist. That’s part of why it works to make fun of the corruption and poor logic of the elite and politicians, as well as their callousness toward the suffering people of the lower class. Satire is the extension of irony and irony is based off of the truth. Dramatic irony is when the audience knows something the character does not, which makes what the character does problematic often in a funny or tragic way. If you’ve seen Wicked then a foreshadowing dramatic irony in the song “The Wizard and I” is about how ‘there will be a day where all of Oz celebrates her and she’ll be so happy she can melt’, which the audience knows is pretty true from The Wizard of Oz, only her melting is her death and all of Oz celebrates that. It’s true, that’s what makes it funny or tragic and satire is just the extreme extension of that.
What Tommy did, was not the truth. He lied, something Dream specifically points out as a main problem he had with the video. Tommy didn’t do satire, he wasn’t highlighting a specific flaw in Dream and Quackity or irony in the situation, he just painted a narrative that wasn’t true and used that to make fun of Dream. That’s the problem with it, that’s why it’s hurtful and not funny (in my opinion). It’s missing the satirical elements of irony and sarcasm that come from being clever with the truth. And that’s why Dream was hurt by it because Tommy made a video lying about a situation where people were already rallying against him, to an audience who already hates him. Tommy just straight up made fun of Dream for laughs in one of the lowest points in Dream’s life.
Even further, what’s also flawed with the argument that it was just a joke is what Tommy says in the podcast
“He didn’t expect Dream to snap at him over the “If YouTubers Were Honest” video. He used that video to test Dream because he had many friends telling him that Dream’s a bad person but Tommy told them no and didn’t believe them. After he posted the video, Dream sent him a very long angry message that was full of horrible words, which made Tommy realize Dream’s a bad guy.”
Tommy didn’t expect Dream to snap? But also did it as a test? Seriously?! Oh let me see how far I can make fun of Dream until he snaps at me and when he does this confirms he’s a bad guy… it’s just a joke my ass, you didn’t just make a video for laughs, you made it in your own words to test Dream and your friendship, furthermore to test how far you could push him until he snaps (<- huh wouldn’t you know, isn’t that a familiar idea…). During a time when you know his mental health is suffering and he and his family are being actively doxxed. That’s just insane. That’s like… like… it’s so wild I’m struggling for an analogy… it’s like kicking a starving animal to test how dangerous it is and then after it finally bites you, labeling it a danger to society…
In summary, Tommy didn’t make a satirical video joking about Dream, he performed a humiliating skit about Dream, making fun of him. In order to test if Dream would snap at him and then labels Dream a bad guy when he does…
huh... ya know that clip Dream used in his vid that he took down?... well I just found the full thing... it's interesting how he talks about not saying he likes Dream publicly since it goes against his brand...
transcript:
"Dream's so helpful, man. Dream's awesome. He's like—probably for the past like eight months, once a week me, Dream will have like a two-hour call. And he just—and he just helps me with shit and I ask him questions... I mean he gets a lot of shit because he deserves it and I hate him but he's lovely"
"(reading chat) 'Dream is great' or no, fellas, we've got to stay in character. I'm not—I'm not—I'm not going to compliment Dream publicly. You know, he surely may be lovely, give me lots of his time and it's really nice, but fucking no. No, no—like guys, guys, guys, like the—the hit song: Cash by Love Sad Kid, you should all know that's my favorite song of all time. That—he always—he says the hit lyric I—I, "Everything I do is on brand." That's like me—that's like me."
I think someones said it before but I feel like if tommy actually met dream irl, he never would have turned on him. He even referred to dream as more genuine when he saw his face and didn't find the 'i love you guys' cringe anymore, but instead charming.
(I think you might have sent you ask in twice btw)
Ahh, so this touches on something I think is very important that is how easy it is to be nasty online versus in person. Because I think a lot of stuff people say wouldn’t be able to say to people’s face, to see how hurt the person is. Saying things through texts or social media is easy because you don’t have to face the same consequences you do in real life. You can call someone terrible things and don’t have to see how it makes them cry or hear their response.
Many of the falling outs with my friends have happened over text, and I genuinely think the reason why is that it’s a lot easier for them to be terrible. I truly believe that they would never have said what they did if we were in person. Because then they would have seen how hurt I was. But sending a text or posting something, it’s too easy to submit and put your phone away and think nothing of it.
That’s not to say bullying doesn’t happen irl or that people can’t be hurtful in person, but I feel like cyber bullying is a whole new level as the anonymity and lack of consequences that come from it, lack of guilt. So often we forget that there is a real life person behind what pretty or silly profile pic there is, with feelings and emotions and pain. It’s easy to forget. Just like it’s easy to feel like 30 notes or likes isn’t a lot on a post, because we forget what 30 people looks like in the real world. Sure online it looks small, but man in real, 30 people listening to what I have to say and liking it, is a lot of people. And it’s so cool to see even more, seeing 100 something likes on my essay about autism really makes me so happy, because hopefully that’s 100 people I helped feel less alone :)…
Anyways, to bring it back to disc duo, I think you’re very right. I think that the outcome would be different had they met in person. How different, remains to be seen, but it is interesting that the British crowd tend to like George. Sure we could say because he’s British, but I think an argument could be made, that because they’ve spent time in person. It’s easier to see him as a person. Perhaps we could attribute Dream’s facelessness as another factor of the internet’s constant loathing, as they struggle to see him as a person. I think there is a very fair argument to made there. Kinda aligns with the dsmp, doesn’t it? It’s easy to hate whose pov you cannot seen, who you cannot see. It’s easy to forget that the green man running around is human…
Though I think this does depend on how genuine Tommy really was in their friendship, whether we go with the theory that he’s been using Dream the whole time or that it was real. And how much Dream’s autism and ADHD behavior pushed people away. But I do think you make a good point. Though Quackity met Dream in person so… who knows. It would have been interesting to see if the outcome would have been the same.
Please know that I was only trying to speak from what I believe brighton crew pov is, I do not agree with them. was explaining how Tubbo perceived the stuff of Dream showing those old clips, and I'm only going off based on what I've seen them say. To answer the question on what does Dream gain out of this, I was explaining that brighton crew perceive dream as having an ego so from their perception, they think Dream is fueling his own ego by doing that and that that was what he got out of tommy. And in the case of the tommy misinterpreting Dreams tone, Philza says that Tommy messaged him asking him if Dream was joking, https://x.com/KingTubbo/status/1856470186360205319 https://x.com/bear_laina/status/1856508314802102633 Like some believe Tommy has been two faced for years, many of brighton crew and fans believe Dream has been two faced which is why we can never really know for sure as even actions cannot explain someones true perspective and intent as Dreams said in the past
[context]
That’s okay, you’re fine. I get it. Sorry if I came across too aggressive before. :) I appreciate you trying to explain the opposition, I knew you didn’t support brighton crew and wasn’t trying to argue with you, but the flawed logic in general in my opinion if that makes sense. <3… so with that in mind… I will continue to criticize their logic as you have expressed it, in other words consider this me arguing with them not you. :)
Soooo let me get this straight, Brighton gang thinks Dream manipulated Tommy and takes credit for the rest of their careers to fuel his ego?….. the man with millions of dollars and millions of fans needs to manipulate other creators to full his ego?… his ego is so BIG he played the villain on the server causing him to be harassed. His ego is soo big he didn’t stream to have his own chat cheering him on. His ego is soo big that he needed to spend hours and hours helping Tommy… are we sure Brighton gang knows what ego is? Cuz like Dream is competitive and he does have an ego, but so do they all. Men tend to have big egos and in my experience autistic men even more so. However, someone with a big ego would not put themselves in a position to not be admired and adored and appreciated, by being the villain, by not streaming, he’s already losing the fan adoration an ego would appreciate. And then as has been discussed, Tommy has been making fun of Dream for ages in public even if supporting him behind the scenes, which would really be against his ego. So why would he spend all his time on someone who doesn’t even fuel his ego? If his ego was inflated he’d be the one insisting on how he made the Dream smp, but instead that comment continues to come from Tommy, ironic… that reasoning doesn’t make sense. Dream’s ego doesn’t need some 16 year old’s attention. That’s like in my mind ridiculous to even suggest. Honestly, I’m beginning to question Brighton gang’s and other’s sanity, like are they okay? They don’t make sense… oh right people typically don’t make sense, never mind.
lol Dream makes a joke against people and they all get in a tizzy meanwhile they have no issues with calling him a pedo for years… right… it’s just a joke right? They don’t actually believe it. It’s all fun in games until it’s a joke made against them… wow…
Yes, you can’t know for sure, but I would argue a few things, 1) we can look at all the actions of someone and compare behavior, Dream’s behavior has consistently been very supportive of his friends even when he was drunk. Meanwhile Tommy has been bashing Dream publicly for years while secretly being his friend. Even in the current conflict Dream has been complimenting them and such, sure we could say it’s manipulation but it’s a behavior that stretches far and wide from Dream’s bathtub spaces to Twitter and everything in between, Dream’s love and care seem evident to me and that’s a long ass ruse to keep up. 2) from what I’ve noticed about autistic people, or at least from me, is that our more logical and practical minds tend to have explicit motivations and plans and goals and agendas . Or maybe this is me generalizing people because of my experiences, but I feel like at least for the autistic people I know this is pretty true, we have agendas. The thing about this situation fueling his ego is not a good enough agenda to suggest manipulation, again he’s just not gaining enough fuel to make it worth in. Tommy just doesn’t seem like a good enough plan to me, especially while he’s hardly supportive publically at least. Dream would have much better ego boasting by choosing someone else to mentor if Tommy was so ungrateful. Like we are talking about a man who’s been coding real people into Minecraft, what do you mean he manipulates some teen to fuel his ego….
idk about anon but Dream being kind to several of his stans that harassed and hated Tommy back then was not as weird as Tommy being friends with people that harassed Dream. Even if Tommy did criticise his friends actions a lot and defended Dream, there are too many moments where he encouraged it and made bad jokes about Dream himself. It's not the joking about dream cheating in manhunt, speedruns, dream's personality or joking about Dreams ego that's the issue because Tommy was close with Dream and had his permission, it's the grooming jokes. And even though Tommy made those grooming jokes about all his friends. It still wasn't okay especially when Dream was uncomfortable by it and upset and it had made these jokes too normalised. Jack and Wilbur didn't care that Tommy made those jokes about them but Dream did. As for Dream's inappropriate jokes about Tommy, afaik Tommy never told him to stop and had added onto the joke more often than not like the Tommy can legally have sx one not 16 legal in UK one.
☝️see you get it… in Tubbo own words, “it’s different okay? and YES you’re gonna say that i’m biased and yes you can clearly see my bias”… oh well except in this case it actually is different and anyone not biased can still see that.
Not to intrude the convo but tbf both insulted both publically and were kind in private, both were complimenting each other only on alt streams and podcasts as well and people would pick and choose what insult was sarcarstic or genuine versus what compliment was sarcasm or genuine
I’m not gonna say you’re wrong, but from my observations that isn’t really true. For example, consider YouTube. How many times has Tommy been referenced there versus all the times Dream has been bashed on Tommy’s channels. Even further the information we do have is that Tommy was making a specific type of joke about Dream being a pedo, which Dream asked him to stop doing, which Tommy has not stopped doing. Also ccs themselves including Wilbur apparently commenting that Tommy went to far and even Tubbo recently have noted that this behavior from Tommy is pretty awful and goes too far. I could be wrong, but I don’t recall anyone saying anything about Dream’s jokes. Furthermore, I don’t think I’ve seen a lot of Dream fans have the impression that Dream hates Tommy but a majority of Tommy fans have always hated Dream and even thought while they were still friends that Tommy did too. I think that’s definitely a notable difference.
One last thing I’ll say, which I don’t think I’ve mentioned yet, to bring it back to Dream’s neurodivergence. One of the jokes referenced in the drama is the one Dream made about taking credit for Tommy’s career, which apparently Tommy asked Phil whether Dream was being serious. Now why did he ask Phil and not Dream? I don’t know if I’m the only one who is bothered by that. But see in my group of mostly adhd and autistic friends, we would check. I am particularly sarcastic, which I try to highlight by changing my tone of voice and smiling to indicate that, because as we all know some people just cannot differentiate between serious and sarcasm. My statement when they say this in regard to me is - just assume 80% of what I say is me being silly and when I’m being serious you’ll know. It will be obvious… anyways one of my friends, who really struggles to read people, had a hard time picking up on my sarcasm and so he would just ask, “Hey, flora are you joking?” And I’d say, “Yes I am. I’m being silly, that’s why I’m smiling.” Communication is key here, instead of taking offense he would just ask for clarification. This is what I mean when I’m talking about how consideration for autism is important, don’t be afraid to check to make sure you understand something is right (in fact probably a good rule to live by in general). I’d much rather have to repeat what I said or explain it then you take it the wrong way.
On the other hand, my friend who I think has adhd but not autism, took some jokes I made recently the wrong way and it really hurt her feelings. And it took her awhile before she came forward and told me, which is okay, confrontation is hard, but I’m glad she felt brave enough to tell me eventually. Because it could have probably ended our relationship if we didn’t talk about it, instead I’m actually going to hang out with her tonight. (As an aside, something interesting about her taking my jokes seriously was because she kinda had some trauma related to that and we discovered that because she probably already subconsciously believed that about herself it made my jokes a confirmation and further added to the reason of why she would be hurt. Kinda like I talked about [post])…
Anyways, maybe you’re right. But that hasn’t been the pattern I’ve personally noticed or remember. And I do kinda want to move away from the topic if that’s okay. <3
ok but its a little confusing that tommy tried playing both sides and ended up getting hate from his own fanbase for liking dream but inniters still liked bbh despite bad being bffs with dream, kind of a double standard there?
Are you asking me to explain innitor logic?… cuz you will be out of luck. Genuinely, I have tried to understand them, especially in regard to lore but I just don’t get them. And that’s not me trying to throw shade, honestly I just don’t follow their reasoning. You can read my essays with them or in regards to common innitor perceptions and I swear I do try to follow, it just often doesn’t work. Mostly because of lore inaccuracy, but that’s a discussion for a different time…
As far as Tommy’s two facedness, it is weird… I mean it got so bad that Wilbur had to tell Tommy to chill out on the Dream jokes, which is wild. It really plays into the theory that Tommy is pandering to his audience and never cared. Because like I said before, while Dream had nothing to gain from Tommy, Tommy had plenty to gain from Dream’s clout and experience. It makes the argument of who used who even stronger… it’s just so weird, like sure lore wise be against Dream but in other content and in public all around? Why? And even if their friendship was genuine, why would Tommy want to encourage people to hate on Dream? Seems screwed up to me… suppose that was the point of the meme huh. It should have been - going from hating c!Dream to cc!Dream… or always hating both… the point about bbh is interesting too, though I cannot speak of which people or characters innitors like as I’m not in that circle and I’m pretty sure a fair amount hate me. But I do think they liked Quackity and Quackity was good friends with Dream, so there’s that. Perhaps their hate is just specifically targeted to Dream. Which does fall in line with my other theory about autism creating the inherent loathing for c! And cc!Dream… anyways…
Have to disagree with other anon. Tommy did compliment Dreams personality back then as he was constantly saying that Dreams a good person, has a good heart, is awesome, kind, clever, creative, friendly, passionate. There is an alt stream where he states that Dream is a lovely guy and that he only pretends to dislike him on stream as a persona. I could defend the Tommy and Dream were close mutually take but I get that this is the worst time to do it considering everything and I don't wanna clog up your blog
[context]
I mean yea I even have clips saved of that, but I think a question of whether perhaps it’s genuine 🤷♀️… eh I don’t know. People can say a lot of things, but that don’t mean it’s true. Then again who am I to say and it’s still a good point of correction, don’t want to spread misinformation. 👍
Much appreciated. I mean I think there are arguments to be made for both cases. Again, we can never truly know at the end of the day. I only consider it a possible reality, not necessarily the truth. Though I think if they were genuinely mutual friends in the past it makes current events that much more tragic and screwed up… not sure which makes Tommy look worse honestly. Is it worse to use people and manipulate them from the start or continue to backstab a friend over and over, inciting a mob to burn down their house… truly messed up either way.
