#rop ama

[lesbiansforboromir]

@peregrintook​ Here’s the first post I made regarding my enthusiasm for the show BUT to answer your questions here;

- No they didn’t fire Tom Shippey. That’s a pretty prominent misconception going around. And honestly if they had fired him? I woulda been happy about it, he was incredibly present for the Jackson trilogy and look where that got us. But no, Tom Shippey has stated he left the project after working on it for a while for his own I think work reasons and there was no firing or dramatic walking out or any such thing. He’s also not the only Tolkien Academic working on RoP! Carl Hostetter, guy who produced the Nature of Middle Earth, for one was involved in the linguistics for the show (Quenya is going to be spoken regularly and Adunaic script plays a part). Dr Corey Olsen has also seen the project through from pretty much it’s inception as far as I’m aware. But also like... I want to be clear, you don’t need a Tolkien Academic to write a good tolkien adaptation. Someone who’s really familiar with the source material and extraneous books and the complexity within the canon? Sure, but that doesn’t necessarily mean an Academic but kjasd I won’t get on my high horse about the state of Tolkien academia today right now. Point is, they had more than enough people familiar with the text onboard. Which actually brings me nicely to the second part.

- Haven’t heard ‘they didn’t read the silmarillion’ before but no! The show runners, writers and even actors were all either silmarillion-style-nerds before the show or joined their ranks during production. Robert Aramayo actually got so into the books that he started organising salons to discuss specific elements of the text, which is so funny to imagine. And anyway, where has this idea come from that the Silmarillion is the book to read for this section of history? There’s essentially the same info about the Akallabeth in the Silm as there are is the Appendices. The unfinished tales has more to do with Numenor in it and they’ve been quoting stuff from there too. They don’t have the rights to the silm, or the unfinished tales, but they also have special allowances given by the tolkien estate to add in things from those sources anyway. Essentially if you’re hearing someone say ‘they didn’t even read the silmarillion!’ #1 they’re wrong and #2 they probably don’t know all that much about the Akallabeth or it’s sources themselves.

- Lastly jasdh it’s... a star! The basic eight pointed form of the so called feanorian star turns up everywhere in tolkien canon, including on gondorian imagery atop the white tree seven times to represent the ‘seven stars seven stones and one white tree’ poem. The Galadriel we meet in the show is a Commander of Gil Galad’s armies, and Gil Galad is covered in these stars in the show, he’s also got elbereth embroidered into his cloak. The stars likely mean either noldo, or just Gil Galad full stop, both of which are perfectly reasonable uses of an eight pointed star. 

There you are, hope that helps!

[lesbiansforboromir]

I’m using @eamonorus-blog​ ‘s question here to do the post I’d been meaning to do for a while. But I want to give a bit of backstory first. 

Initially, as many people were, I was very skeptical about the show. Tolkien adaptations and I have never gotten along and initial reveals about the show weren’t particularly inspiring. I hadn’t seen what I wanted to see out of a story about this particularly point in Middle-earth history; namely a deep dive into the political religious philosophy of Numenorean Kingsmen vs the Faithful. And not only that, I had some other lore and plot related concerns surrounding what was being released. MUCH of those issues have been settled since then within some of the recent promotional material but some still remain, namely;

- Why do we have two Durins living at the same time, considering they are supposed to have the same soul. - Where is Anarion that’s my fucking boy. (I’m more reassured about this one than I was before but it’s still present as a concern for now) - There is actually no feasible way to sensitively deal with the Numenorean slave trade, deforestation and colonialism without making Elendil a bad guy. - The Southlands plot is looking quite uncomfortable in terms of the implications it has for Middle men/High men politics but we really don’t know enough about it to say. 

And really... that’s all the issues I have left! And what I’d say is, essentially, the things I’ve seen since the original first few leaks were released are more than exciting enough for me to still want to watch the show inspite of those four issues. 

I have to start with talking about Numenor. Remember when I said I hadn’t seen what I wanted to see, the political religious philosophy of Numenorean Kingsmen vs the Faithful? Well since SDCC where RoP had a massive presence, that plot thread has been WELL in view. Trystan Gravelle (actor who’s playing Pharazon) has talked at LENGTH about the kingsman perspective, the worries and frustrations that drive him and the very understandable issues surrounding being a mortal in a world where immortal creatures exist and speak to you and ask you favours. 

Lloyd Owen, Elendil’s actor, has mentioned that we find Elendil in a time of such high emotional turmoil that even HE is looking for more stability, turning away from the strict faithful dogma and looking more to the capitol. And Elendil having a crisis of faith? Perhaps the most exciting concept I’ve ever heard. I love Elendil’s crisis of faith I want to kiss it’s beautiful little head and tuck it into bed at night when it is inevitably resolved. Just the mere idea of watching Elendil struggle with these issues, not being just a stoney wall of holy righteousness, that’s interesting! I want to watch him go on that journey with his children! I want to see him discuss it with Pharazon and Miriel! 

And these themes aren’t just present in the characters, the whole Numenorean set is riddled with such a depth of world building, I have to stim everytime I see a new thing about it. Numenor visually is what Peter Jackson never gave me for Gondor, there are COOLING TOWERS there are frescos and massive statues and tiny little secret shrines tucked away in street corners and adunaic graffiti over the top of elvish script!! Have you all seen Nimloth? 

This is a terrible image but she’s absolutely beautiful in the trailers. And most vitally these more elven architectural arches built to honour her are falling into disrepair now that she is becoming more a symbol of what men are apparently barred from ever having, than a divine blessing. 

I could go on and on about how excited I am just to see this Numenor, even if the rest of the show is absolutely terrible I will be excited to just turn the sound off and stare at more images like THIS and THIS and THIS 

BUT I know not everyone cares about Numenor like I do SO, in terms of elf excitement (difficult for me, doesn’t come naturally but) The most promising thing I would say I’ve ever heard on the elf front is hearing Benjamin Walker (Gil Galad) talk about elves and their struggles in this particular era. There is going to be ELF POLITICS! They have thought about the tolls as well as the benefits of a somewhat immortal existence, Gil Galad and Galadriel have a RELATIONSHIP with each other that is both respectful and old and difficult, he’s talked about the need for elves to maintain a strict society given that grudges held can last forever, he’s talked about this weight of grief that the elves are trying to overcome by falling in love with Middle Earth. Like!! Even if you don’t like the specific way they’ve decided to go with some characters, doesnt that sound neat? Aren’t you intrigued? I know I am and I could not care less about elves. 

The Dwarven stuff has to be the SECOND MOST exciting thing I want to see. Durin and Disa’s relationship is such a unique thing to see onscreen, we’ve never gotten a mainstream portrayal of dwarves who are in love with each other! And they are figuring out their own political discourse as well, they are treating with the elves, they are dealing with their family politics, Khazad Dum is at it’s HEIGHT and the sheer vastness of the design for the whole city just makes me buzz with a thrill each time I look at it. There’s also been a verbal acknowledgement from the writers team that dwarves have previously been depicted just for jokes on film, and that they all wanted to move away from that and treat dwarves with more care and respect. Which I’m all for! And I suppose this isn’t about the show itself but, did yall know Sophia Nomvete gave birth to her child a WEEK before she flew out to start filming the show? And they sewed special accomodations into her costumes to allow her to breast feed on set? That cast and crew members would take care of her baby whilst she was doing her scenes? I’m absolutely enamoured with Sophia honestly, she’s been the most elegant and bold and joyful ambassador for the series. 

HOBBITS? Now for a long time I was really uncaring about the hobbit plotline, I love Lenny Henry but it seemed like an unnecessary addition to the show. BUT! Recently we got confirmation that we have entwives in the show. And isnt the idea of ancient hobbits interacting with entwives just the coolest? Especially when we know that will all go rapidly downhill VERy soon? And alongside the later seasons plots, they could be a great lead into a variety of aspects. I’m essentially accepting of them now and we’ll see how it goes. 

The Southlands!! Are Mordor!! This is both terrifying and fascinating, we are going to see pre-sauron mordor, with what I can only assume are the people who... HOPEFULLY NOT ALL BUT SOME? Will become the slaves of Nurn. Which... as I said!! DICEY.. but still fascinating and I do want to see it. 

There were a raft of short reviews from some folks who got to watch the first two episodes early and they were pretty much universally positive but the one that actually inspired me the most was a guy who said it was ‘beautiful’ but also ‘really dense and slow’. Which... isn’t that the greatest desire for tolkien fans? Fuck yeah give me the densest slowest show you’ve got. 

The last thing I’ll say is like... I think I’m actually in a pretty good position. I think my already very great disappointment in the Jackson films has really helped me keep the right perspective for the show. It’s not going to be exactly what you all want it to be! The time compression is going to be frustrating, the character changes will be disorientating, the fandom that will spring up around it will have misconceptions about the lore and that WILL annoy you. But take it from me! You’ll survive and you’ll also still probably have a good time watching it to boot. Untense! Take a deep breath! This is an exciting new era for the tolkien fandom and you might as well enjoy yourself. 

[lesbiansforboromir]

Why does it matter that the actors and creative team are book fans when the finished product grossly misunderstands and misrepresents the text? No background detail or linguistic accuracy will fix the total invention of 99% of the plot, or the deviations from canon. If a cake is made with concrete dust instead of flour it doesn’t matter if a pastry chef made it. It fails as an adaptation and it’s been very honest about that from the start, so why get excited about it when you like the books?

Alright. Firstly, what I want you to do is read this message again, then imagine it is about the Jackson films, which it absolutely could be and in fact it fits them BETTER since we actually know the vast extent to which PJ misrepresented the books and deviated from canon, cus his films have been out for 20+ years already. And then think about how much of an impact those films had anyway. Think about how many book fans enjoyed those films anyway including myself.

And then think about all the extraneous other adaptations of Tolkien that have happened over the years, from cartoons to games, and think about how book fans have also enjoyed those despite their own massive changes that go all the way too cutting out main characters entirely! And THAT is when we are talking about adaptations that change the actually written stories that have a real narrative and a plot and characters. RoP is basically adapting a sparse tale of years at this point, which have themes sure, and the bare bones of characters, but there's a lot of space to fill in with their own creativity. Which is literally what I do all the time!

This entire blog in fact is dedicated mostly to me taking what the text has given me and fleshing out the parts I like in ways that I enjoy. Because tolkien's writing is not some religious canon that requires legions of supplicants and holy warriors to defend it. It is good enough to be adapted in countless ways and still have more to offer, that is exactly what classic stories are there for.

And that's all the things I'd say if I even agreed with your strange assertions. How do you know the showrunners are grossly misunderstanding the text? The various disparate versions of the Akallabeth you mean? As far as I can tell they've gripped the actual meat of the narrative very well. Religious debates, free will over suffering, mortals dying for immortals and that sparking a growing resentment to flourish, that's all IN the promo material for this show. Are you talking about the time compression? I assume you are. Yeah it's a massive squish and it's cutting out a lot of kings and queens but, and this pains me a little to say because I still am grieving Tar-Telperien, the only thing the actual NARRATIVE is losing here is an agonisingly slow burn to the end. All the beats are the same!

In the end, they are putting enthusiasm and effort into investigating pieces of Middle Earth history that I had never expected to be depicted like this before. And they aren't the worst people in the world or betraying the fans or causing some irreparable harm to Tolkien by changing parts of that history and inventing things within that history to tell a story that they think is good. And this vitriolic rhetoric is completely inappropriate, especially when, again, it isn't even out yet! Like you're in my inbox talking about a finished product that doesn't even exist, they're only on season 1! So yes, just like I do with the Jackson films, just like I do with the old cartoons, just like I do with every fan made film and all the lotr films made in other languages that I've seen and enjoyed for themselves, I'll sit in my book fan little seat and enjoy this adaptation with my friends too. I'm excited to see what they come up with! And if I don't like it then it won't be the end of the world, which I know from experience.

[lesbiansforboromir]

hi! you don't have to answer and I'm sorry if I misunderstood what you said, but I think it's a little unfair to say you cannot distinguish people who criticise trop because they're racist vs because they don't want to support amazon vs because it doesn't follow the "original storyline". also the Jackson trilogy had its fair share of problems, but they mostly followed the story and I think the heart was there. amazon has to change a lot of plot points because they don't own the rights to the silmarillion, so it's not really the same thing. I understand the need for caution because unfortunately the tolkien fandom is full of misogynists and white supremacists, but I don't think it's as undistinguishable as you made it to be. again, sorry if you're done talking about this, I love your blog, nor trying to start any shit. ok bye <3

Never done talking about this! Might be talking about this for weeks to come.

To be clear, what I mean is that the talking points are indistinguishable. If I see someone talking about how RoP is betraying Tolkien's vision or how this is a sin against Tolkien or how he's rolling in his grave and other such rhetoric, I cannot tell if that person is saying it because they don't like the canon changes, or because they are racist. Because I have seen all sides of the fence, often verbatim! make those same points. The only way to tell where they fall is often either digging quite deep into their social media, or by actually engaging with them in a discussion that can get incredible nasty very quickly. And even then, it is not a surefire thing. And with the massive weight of the backlash, often you don't really have time to do any of that in the first place. What I'm saying is that, no matter the original intention, the vitriol and aggression of the pushback against RoP is only serving the white supremacists, no one else.

Next, and I'll keep saying this until the cows come home, they have absolutely enough of the rights to the canon material to adapt the Akallabeth. They do not have to change a lot of plot points. They are making plot points, in order to fill in for the scarcity of character and plot within the actual text itself, but they are fully able to tell this story. They even have special dispensation from the tolkien estate to use material they dont have the rights too on a case by case approval basis. This is misinformation which is, I'm pretty sure, from the racist backlash on places like youtube.

Peter Jackson, I might add, had the rights to a fully written and characterised story with everything he needed and he STILL changed: - Every character's personality, and most of their motives and dialogue - Removed characters with large speaking roles and entire sections of the story including the ending to the whole thing! - Removed all of the complexity to the plot, the philosophy, the mentions of the west, boiled down every theme to something something 'friendship' and Frodo's whole agency in the ring's destruction entirely.

So I really don't see where RoP is going wrong if we're all fine with the jackson trilogy. Is it the heart? If you watched the interviews from cast and crew, I think you'd find a lot of what you're looking for. Peter Jackson was under the thumb of a massive profiteering mega corporation too, Harvey Weinstein literally produced those films.

I'm not saying you can't dislike it, I'm not even saying don't criticise it or hate on it! What I'm saying is #1 think about where you got the information that caused you to hate it, #2 make sure that's not misinformation #3 allow RoP's right to exist, even if you hate it. Don't treat tolkien's work like a religious text that cannot be tainted, it is still just a story and anyone could improve upon it if they wished.

[lesbiansforboromir]

but why do you care if there’s people who “don’t think the show has a right to exist”? some criticisms are legitimate, and some are not, but it’s not like it’s only happened to this show in specific. it’s most likely going to be successful even if it sucks, people throwing a tantrum about it is not going to change it. and yeah, tolkien’s writings shouldn’t be treated as borderline religious texts, but i don’t think you’re going to convince people who really feel this way otherwise. and people have a right to be upset that their favorite characters are being portrayed in a way they feel don’t do them justice, as you have admitted. so i don’t see your point.  

Let me try again then, yes people are allowed to be angry about changes in the show, just as I still am about all the glaring changes the Jackson trilogy made.

Do you think it would be appropriate for me to go around claiming that the PJ trilogy was an abomination and an atrocity and was sinning against Tolkien because of that? That all the production was soulless and heartless? That the production team all hated Tolkien and are betraying his legacy and disrespecting his work? That it doesn't have a right to exist? I mean I could, and many people did in the day too! But my issue has never been that people dislike things, it is specifically;

Treating tolkien like a religious text is not just a small opinion held by a few people, it's the culture of the fandom at large.

It drives this very puritanical language and attitude in tolkien fandom spaces that is used for all criticism of adaptation and engagement in the text, whether that be changing someone's favourite character or not making it look how they want it to look or it being made by a megacorporation or the fact that it has non-white actors in it, the exact same tolkien-is-pure-how-dare-you-do-this-to-him rhetoric is used for all of those topics, with the same level of vitriol as well.

Thereby creating this atmosphere for the racist opinions to flourish in, where their agendas can be easily slipped into wide fandom spaces without much challenge, which is the situation in all of the fandom spaces I occupy right now.

The point is, people can adapt Tolkien however they like. Some people will hate it, some people will love it, and changing characters etc should not be treated with the same moral outrage as the Amazon company itself. And absolutely none of the aspects of the show should be portrayed as some kind of act of sin against Tolkien's text, because it's literally just a story, he's literally just a guy and deciding Elrond was politically ambitious in his early life is just an interpretation, which everyone is allowed to have.

[lesbiansforboromir]

I can see your point about RoP but I do somewhat (and as politely as possible) disagree that boycotting will do nothing. Boycotting RoP when Amazon's future of streaming could be determined by its success or failure could mean forcing Amazon out of streaming. Forcing Amazon out of streaming (or to at least step back) could mean forcing Amazon's claws out of one area of our lives, an area which gives them a lot of power in a buisness loyalty sense.

Also to be clear I'm not saying to not talk about it online, raving about the actors efforts and whatnot to ensure their names get out there as much as possible is something I would encourage! Just not watching RoP on Amazon. After all the actors get paid either way right ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I think everyone is blowing the whole 'future of streaming' tagline out of the water. I do not think boycotting this show, no matter how much money Amazon has put into it, will kill Amazon Prime. I think it will certainly change the way they produce their shows, and the way other studios also produce their shows in response to it, but I do not think any of those changes will be beneficial to anybody and especially not their workers.

And again, that is my worry. Are we willing to endanger and mess with the job security and in-company work environments AND tacitly support the racist boycott that is also being organised by white supremacists on 4chan, on the off chance that Amazon just see their profits on the show are disappointing and quit streaming altogether? I am not.

[lesbiansforboromir]

Media Insider:

"Amazon insiders say its $1 billion ´Lord of the Rings´ series will determine the company´s streaming future"

I am 100% sure you can find more sides saying the same thing, also you can easily pirate such a big show

Yes, again, I've seen the headlines. But 'amazon's streaming future' does not mean either it will continue streaming or it will quit entirely. And again, even with this take in the way you interpret it and assuming it is entirely true and assuming that it's not some other amazon planted headline, are there amazon workers encouraging this boycott?

Also since you keep saying this, I have never and will never actually have an amazon streaming account, I cannot afford it for one thing. I am not here fighting for my right to watch it on Amazon. I am talking specifically about the language people use, the toxic purity attitude people have around Tolkien and the way all of this makes it very hard to distinguish between people who just don't like the show, people who are against amazon, and people who are racist.

[lesbiansforboromir]

For the AMA: so far the only plot the trailers seem to be explaining is that Galadriel is looking for Sauron. Do you have any guesses as to what the dwarves, men, and hobbits are doing in the show?

PRETTY LARGE SPOILERS AHEAD for this one but so;

Galadriel's plot and the Numenorean's plot is mostly tied together for season one, it's actually quite a clever way of getting around the time compression without getting rid of the two wars in my opinion. Essentially, Galadriel will be looking for evil, she will find it or have an idea of it being around. People will try to convince her to go back to Valinor and she'll nearly get there but then somehow get shipwrecked and picked up by Elendil. She will convince Miriel to lead Numenorean armies into Middle Earth to get at the nonspecific evil (probably this adar fellow we've been hearing about). But within that there will be an introduction of the whole 'Pharazon supporting the guilds and standing up for human issues against elven demands' etc etc I wont say anymore except that I do think this will be a nice catalyst for the rest of the Numenorean story in later seasons.

The Dwarves and Elves are tied up with each other in terms of some kind of political debate. Prince Durin and his Dad Durin disagree on how they should handle the elves, with Dad Durin being like 'Elves should leave we really don't need them anymore' etc etc and I hope they dont make him too mean so I can stan him but anyway. Elrond and Durin are friends, (the way they've been discussing Elrond and Durin's relationship has been so amusingly romantic but no they're just friends, looking forward to the fanfiction tho) Elrond is trying to weigh his convictions between his chosen people (elves) and promises made to his friends (Durin). Celebrimbor is encouraging him in this whole endeavour.

The hobbits are going to have this... admittedly convoluted looking plot surrounding both this mysterious meteor man (man fell from the sky as a meteor, he has no memories, they're taking care of him, he has special powers and I'm 100% certain it's Gandalf but I'm also really hoping it's saruman) but ALSO surrounding their travelling and whether they should change their ways. This will also involve Entwives somehow which I'm excited about.

There's a second human plot! Pre-numenorean village. This is where the elf Arondir is in love with his Bronwyn lass. Essentially, after morgoth' defeat, the humans who had worshipped Morgoth were forced to settle in these lands and change their ways whilst a group of elves watched over them. This was so long ago now that all the humans think the elves are being really goddamn annoying and should chill out. Arondir is one of these elves, Bronwyn is one of the humans who thinks they're being too overbearing. There's other stuff going on here but I'll stop there this is a bit too spoilery already.

That's as brief an overview of all the plots without giving too much away, I actually know a great deal about how this show will at least start, and even a little about how the first season might end. But I'm sure some folk want to be surprised so :)