DER SPIEGEL: You know that there are some quite influential people, even high-level German government officials, who are trying to say that you have a close relationship with the Russians. Snowden: Yes, especially that Hans guy from Germany. DER SPIEGEL: You mean Hans-Georg Maassen, the head of Germany’s domestic intelligence service. He insinuated a couple of times that you could be a Russian spy. Are you? Snowden: I’m not. He doesn’t even have the moral fiber to say, ‘I think this person is a spy.’ Instead, he says, 'Whether Mr. Snowden is a Russian agent or not cannot be proven.’ You can literally say this about anyone. I thought, and I would hope, that in an open society, we had moved beyond the days when these secret police agencies were basically denouncing their critics. I’m not even mad about it. I’m just disappointed. [...] Snowden: I know, you go: Putin that great humanitarian, of course he lets him in for free. Nobody believes that, there has got to be some deal, some quid pro quo. But they don't understand. If you think about it for a second: I was trying to get into Latin America, but the U.S. government canceled my passport and trapped me in the Russian airport. The U.S. president was sending daily demarches to the Russian side demanding my extradition. Think about the Russian domestic political situation. Putin's self-image, his image to the Russian people and how that would look if the Russian president would have said, 'Yes, we are very sorry -- here, have this guy.' And maybe there is an even simpler explanation for this, which is that the Russian government just enjoyed the rare opportunity of being able to say 'no.' The real tragedy here is that I applied for asylum in Germany, France and 21 different countries around the world. And it was only after all of these countries said 'no' that the Russians finally said 'yes.' It seemed like they didn't even want to say 'yes,' and I certainly wasn't asking. [...] Snowden: The idea that half of American voters thought that Donald Trump was the best among us, is something that I struggle with. And I think we will all be struggling with it for decades to come. [...] Donald Trump has nothing to do with the deep state. Donald Trump doesn't even know what the deep state is. The deep state is this class of career government officials that survive beyond administrations. [...] The deep state realizes that while it may not elect the president, it can shape them very quickly -- and this is through the same means with which they shape us. [...] All these things show that intelligence services have influence through an implicit threat. They are effective, they are persuasive. They created a new politics of fear. Whenever one of their policy choices is threatened, they feed the press and the public with all the dangers we should fear. As a society, we become terrorized. [...] I think it is this new atmosphere of fear and that it won't change until we, as a public, learn to perform a new kind of alchemy and recognize fear when it is being presented. We need to learn to eat fear, to convert it into an energy that can be used to better a society rather than to terrorize and weaken it. But not even Obama could do that. [...] DER SPIEGEL: Are you still hoping that you will one day be able to return to the U.S.? Snowden: Yes, absolutely. I'm not going to judge the likelihood of it, but you mentioned before allegations against me -- you hear them less and less with each passing year. And I think that means there is still hope for the future, even for me.
Dreistündiges Interview in Moskau
