#soul lore

[desicat-writer]

Been seeing a lot of Spike didn't choose to get his soul he was tricked, so he didn't deserve a second chance!

and given that this was an intentional misdirect from the show. so fair conclusion to come to before watching s7

Also Angelus didn't choose his soul. he was cursed. so he definitely didn't deserve another chance if the logic is: getting a soul had to be an intentional choice for a shot at redemption.

[hersterical]

I get it now. The trials that Spike went through to get his soul back at the end of season 6 were more ceremonial than anything else because the real trials he went through for his soul happened over the course of years, beginning with the first time he decided to act with even the smallest glimmer of goodness and selflessness (whenever you interpret that to be) and so throughout the series he was regaining his soul bit by bit until all that was left was the final step necessary to make his soul officially whole (there’s a big difference between all souled and mostly souled)

This is also why Angel and Angelus are basically two different people. Not only did Angelus not choose of his own free will to get his soul back, but it also wasn’t a slow and gradual process, allowing his “muscles” to heal and “bones” to reset and so on (I’m not a doctor, that metaphor was a bad idea but I’m keeping it anyway)

Regaining a soul is a slow healing process requiring the desire to be healed along with the proper care, medicine, and time

[wisekoalanightmare]

In universe possible explanation of how incoherent souls are as a concept: is it possible that 'souls' don't have an objective definition in btvs either, and that what Angel and Spike have received and respectively call their 'souls' are actually different in nature?

Angel's soul was given to him by Romani people (I know they're called gypsies in the show, but I hear Romani people is a better term), as a punishment. So maybe, what THEY meant by soul was some form of instictual way of understanding morality, they wanted to punish him by letting him understand how terrible a person he was. This explanation works even better for me since Liam didn't seem to have as good a moral compass as when he's Angel. On top of that, Angel seems way more concerned with morality and 'fighting the good fight' than Spike when they both have souls.

On the other hand, Spike asks for his soul, though he never really puts it into words for the genie. He later says that it was to 'be a kind of man', he wanted to transform himself into someone who could love and be loved fully, and to not be a monster who hurt his loved ones. At least that's how I interpret it. So maybe THAT's what the genie gave him, something to complete his ability to love.

And as for the fact that it is said that vampires don't have souls... Maybe that's just a commonly held belief amongst the damned, a turn of phrase that is used to describe how people turn into monsters, but not a 'scientific' reality in that world? The watcher's council and demons seem to think that there objectively exists such a thing as a soul, but maybe they're incorrect!

[missanon-whoknows]

SOUL LORE!

As a result of being in the multiverse realms with no protection, for VERY long periods of time, Liminal & Genesis have both developed Decentralized souls, where their souls have broken apart, but never died, it’s a very slow process. Due to his primary residence being the realm of cessation, which has the effect of constantly slowly breaking everything down, meaning his soul pieces have connected to each other, almost as a net for protection. Genesis faces no such issue. The soul is what causes issues with realm travel, as it needs to basically reformat. Genesis & Liminal’s healing also goes back to this decentralization.

[disco-tea]

Alright I’m going to run my mouth and dredge up soul lore again and say some things that's probably gonna annoy some people but I genuinely do think it’s true: basically trying to adhere to the show’s original soul lore is pointless and a disservice to every single vampiric character that’s not Angel. Because the thing about soul lore is it's simply a loophole for Joss Whedon’s original black-and-white mythology which was that he didn’t want complicated vampires. He didn’t want vampires with sympathetic/human traits or internal worlds. He didn’t want “Anne Rice crap” he wanted grrr arg scary monster vampires with cardboard personalities who aren’t human at all anymore. The only reason soul lore exists is because the network pushed him to add a vampire so he slapped a soul on angel and basically all the soul was ever supposed to be was a lil sticker that says Angel gets a pass to be a multidimensional character. That's it. And that’s fine and well so long as Angel remains the only reoccurring vampire in the show with any character development. But of course, it's pretty hard to do a good show full of monsters where you never actually tell us about who the monsters are or what their motivations are besides monologuing and villainously twisting their mustaches. That's what happens in season 2 when they kill the anointed one. By killing him they effectively kill the old flimsy archetype and after that we start seeing vampires with more traits and personalities and memories from their human life. Boom, out goes Angel’s soul and then eventually, Angel as well. Graveyard cemetery doornail dead. Double dead. Dead squared. And you know what, here’s the controversial part, I’m just gonna say it…even with the established soul lore…they probably would’ve let it go and actually amended it if Angel had stayed dead. But he didn’t. Angel came back with his soul and got his own show where he is the main character and that simply magnified the problem with soul lore because Angel has to be a very special boy because otherwise why are we focusing on him?? Why is he the main character if any old vampire can grow a personality and a conscience? And honestly they probably also wanted him to be the “one vampire in all the world.”Buffy but a Dude. And therein lies a huge source of back-and-forth and continuity errors and the writers having to cling to the OG lore even though the story has grown beyond it. Angel is gone from btvs and the growing narrative and overall character/lore development demands that you have to take a step back and look at the shades of gray, but also remember you can never be anything without a soul because Angel is on right after this. The universe shows us that vampires can grow and change and have a full continuity of self and that they are more than just simply the shells of humans with a demon inside, but tells us otherwise because of outside aspects. That's why I think trying to rigidly adhere to soul lore is pointless, because its not a well thought out established rule of the universe, its a massive continuity error that was never properly corrected and continued to mess up and confuse the universe because the creator stubbornly wrote himself into a corner from the start.

[girl4music]

I think what gets me most is the “I am a demon” and “there’s a demon inside me” contradiction. Spike owns up to his own evil behaviour. Angel doesn’t. Spike always owns up to his own actions and choices but yet he is not the vampire seeking a redemption.

Spike takes accountability.

Angel says it’s someone else.

Sure Angel feels guilty for the things that Angelus has done but the problem is it’s not HIM that did them. So how can it be a redemption story? It isn’t. It’s an absolution story. So long as the man and the monster are separated, it cannot be a mission of redemption.

If Angelus was the one who was making amends for the things he has done… then it would be a redemption. But that never happens. Angelus doesn’t give a shit. He revels in the damage and pain he causes. He loves it. There’s no morality in the man. He is just a monster through and through. Nothing else.

I do not understand how a guy who is a whole ass other fucking person has to pay the consequences for some other guy’s actions and choices. It’s not his problem so it’s not his fault. He just makes it that way.

The only reason ‘AtS’ works is because Angel feels responsible for Angelus’ 500+ years of carnage but he shouldn’t because Angel is not Angelus and vice versa.

Spike on the other hand chooses to be ensouled even when soulless. It should be impossible for him to feel any remorse whatsoever. He shouldn’t be capable of empathy or free will if he isn’t capable of selfless love.

But that’s just not how it works with him at all. Does the chip train him to be this way? No, I don’t think so because even before that he still can go against his own demonic nature. Yes, for selfish reasons but nevertheless… he shouldn’t be able to choose at all. His evil demon should control and rule him just the same as it does with Angelus. There should be no difference. No leeway whatsoever. No morality.

That’s if the lack of soul is the factor.

It’s clearly not.

He just acts like a selfish and warped person with a screw loose every now and again. He doesn’t act like the devil incarnate has taken over his entire identity.

Redemption truly only works when you’re the same entity when evil as you are when good. If you are literally a different entity… then it doesn’t and it can’t because “I don’t understand why I did this” and “I didn’t do this but I feel responsible” are not the same.

You can feel responsible for something someone else has done but that doesn’t mean that you should. If you did literally do them and have actively stopped doing those things out of your own volition - different story.

It has to be your choice. You can’t be compelled. Redemption doesn’t and cannot work that way.

This is the fundamental flaw of ‘Angel the Series’.

Separating and differentiating the man from the monster by way of “he has a conscience now”.

HE doesn’t have a conscience. HE just has his identity back. He’ll lose it again when his “conscience” goes bye bye. How can THAT work as a redemption story?

You can say you’re not that person anymore. But that’s not a literal statement. You are still that person but you’ve chosen not to be. You’ve chosen to change. If you can’t choose. If you’re forced into changing … then it’s not on you because you’re not that person.

When the soul is a factor - it’s not choice. It’s compelling. It’s forcing the person to change. This would be a problem for both Angel and Spike if Spike did not choose to change while he was soulless. The very reason he gets and now has a soul is the very same reason why he doesn’t actually need one. He fought for his soul so he could be a better person.

He already was simply because chose to fight for it. Angelus never ever makes that same distinction. Ever. Angel does. But Angel shouldn’t have ever had to because Angel is literally an entirely different entity. He shares his body with a demon. He isn’t that demon.

His hands drove the car but “he” was not the driver.

So it’s not a redemption because “he” doesn’t need to be redeemed. “He” is not the one that needs redemption because “he” is not the one that is evil.

[midnight-soulless-system]

hiii- just wondering if you’re in recovery for your pedophilic disorder (or if you plan to be)

Hi! Yes, we're currently in therapy and working on harm reduction and remembering that thoughts aren't actions.

[southsidestory]

Something that I love about BTVS and its portrayal of misogyny:

Spike is quite sexist prior to getting his soul. He calls Buffy a bitch on several occasions, he slut shames her, he’s generally knee-deep in toxic masculinity, in "Tabula Rasa" he calls Anya a trollop without knowing *anything* about her, and he expresses admiration for Tara’s father. (Though that last one is at least 50% performative, considering that he helps Tara get away from her family in that same scene.)

But as soon as he’s ensouled, those behaviors go out the window. Which can’t be said for many of Spike’s other mundane, unpleasant qualities and cruel tendencies.

This implies that misogyny is so fundamentally evil that it’s part of the Soulless Creature Starter Kit.

And I think that’s beautiful 🤣