Feb 8
Dean Winchester | SPN 2.08
seen from Poland
seen from United States
seen from Netherlands
seen from Russia
seen from Russia
seen from China
seen from France
seen from United States
seen from United States
seen from Singapore
seen from T1
seen from Russia
seen from United States
seen from Malaysia
seen from United States
seen from Belgium
seen from Singapore
seen from United States
seen from Italy
seen from Poland
Dean Winchester | SPN 2.08
Dean in 2.08: Making demon deals is selfish you’re making your loved one live without you knowing you died because of them that isn’t fair I know ‘cause it happened to me
Dean at the end of the season when he sells his soul no longer giving a single fuck:
Heck, I can’t believe I’ve done 30 of these now! I’m 1/11th of the way through the series! LOLOLOL!
Poor Dean, has his second-worst fears confirmed, that John sold his soul to Hell for Dean to live. Don’t worry, he still has his worst fears waiting to be confirmed-- what that whole thing about having to possibly kill Sam if Dean fails to save him could possibly mean...
Things referenced in this episode:
The Superwiki page for this episode
My tag for this episode (heck it’s only one page... how do I not have more posts about this one?)
Casting Sides for Dean’s crossroads demon (please go read to see what was added to her lines, about how Dean was “supposed to be dead” and John was “supposed to be alive” just adding to his burden of guilt and slathering on a heaping helping of cosmic consequences gone wrong)
Casting Sides for George Darrow (please go read to appreciate the fact they took out the awkward scenes of George having to explain Hoodoo to Sam and Dean like they were children)
Casting Sides for Robert Johnson (which are basically just neato to read, and confirm that the scripted date for when he sold his soul was 1928, and got borked by whoever keyed “1930″ into the chyron by mistake, creating the baffling anomaly of an apparent 8 year demon deal, instead of the standard 10)
Would you like to join our discord server to chat more about these episodes? Or about anything and everything to do with Supernatural? Message me here on tumblr or over at my main blog (I’m @mittensmorgul), and I’ll give you a link.
Listen now on AnchorFM, or wherever you enjoy podcasts!
2x08 - Crossroad Blues
This talk of the early seasons gives me another question: do you think the demons were trying to break John in hell? Like, were they trying to break the first seal with John a couple years before Dean? Or do you think breaking Dean was the original plan all along? (I'm aware the writers wouldn't have known about the seals while writing John being in hell seasons 1/2. I'm concerned about the Watsonian perspective here.) Thanks for your wisdom btw, I love your perspective on this stuff 😬
Hi there! First off, thanks! I do my best, and I’m glad you’re enjoying it :D
Second, wheee! Watsonian perspective is what I care most about, so I’ll stick to that. Well, mostly… the one thing I feel I do need to bring up is the timeline of s2, which I would suggest falls roughly over the span of time during which it airs– that’s to say that 2.01 (where John dies) and 2.22 (where John pops out of Hell and gives the assist in killing Azazel) are approximately eight to eleven months apart, depending on which theory of the timeline you subscribe to.
We know that 2.22 takes place immediately after the events of 2.21, which we have a concrete date for– Dean sells his soul on May 2, 2007. According to the Superwiki, John was killed by Azazel on July 19, 2006, but that’s a guess based on the date listed on the heart monitor of the girl who dies in the hospital in 2.01. And we all know how… timey-wimey those sorts of props can be, and I’m uncomfortable making definitive timeline estimates based on just those things. But for the purposes of this post, we’ll assume the range of potential timeline for 2.01 runs between late July and late September 2006 (since 2.01 aired on September 28, 2006, and often without other concrete dates, we assume canon runs approximately parallel to our real time).
So, John was in Hell for somewhere between 8 and 10 months, approximately, of canon standard time. But what do we really know about that time he spent in Hell?
We know DEAN’S experience in Hell, where he was being specifically worked over to the point of breaking. We know that his four months (actually more like four and a half– from May 2, 2008 through his resurrection date of September 18, 2008), but that it actually felt more like 40 years to him.
I need to stress this specifically, because the fandom assumption has always been “well, this is just what time is like uniformly throughout Hell, and not a targeted, concentrated experience catered specifically to accelerating Dean’s progression to surrender and pick up the blade himself, in fulfillment of the prophecy.”
I… always assumed that Dean’s experience was unique in Hell, and that– based on every other glimpse we’ve seen of Hell– Time runs… pretty much like normal Earth time there. Think of Crowley’s meeting with Cas in 6.20, in Hell’s waiting line. Or 11.09-11.10 (where we see more of Hell than ever before– both Crowley’s “dining room” there, several passageways, and the “stage cage” in Limbo), where time in Hell parallels exactly the characters who are still on Earth. While waiting for Dean and then Cas to arrive, for example, Sam only spends about half an hour with Lucifer in the cage alone, and Crowley and Rowena only spend the same amount of in-show time there as it takes for Dean and Cas to arrive, respectively. Finally, we have 8.19, wherein we know Sam had exactly 24 hours to break into Hell, retrieve Bobby, and escape to be picked up by the reaper who never arrived because Crowley was killed. Sam’s time “in Hell” exactly paralleled Dean’s time on Earth, as well as “purgatory time,” which we know runs approximately parallel to Earth Time after Dean spent “about a year” there.
So the logical conclusion is that “Hell Time” is malleable, but that Dean’s experience there was… unique. According to the prophecy they were ALL trying to bring about, Dean was put on the Break-The-Righteous-Man-Speed-Run plan. And I do believe this was a highly specific circumstance, and that Dean’s “Hell Time Dilation” was specific to his time in Hell, and not a universal blanket statement on how time works in Hell in general.
So… I postulate that John only spent those 8-10 months in “normal time” in Hell. And despite Alastair’s taunts in 4.16:
Alastair: John Winchester. Made a good name for himself. A hundred years. After each session, I’d make him the same offer I made you. I’d put down my blade if he picked one up.Dean: Just give me the demon’s name, Alastair.Alastair: But he said nein each and every time. Oh, damned if I couldn’t break him. Pulled out all the stops, but John, he was, well, made of something unique. The stuff of heroes. And then came Dean. Dean Winchester. I thought I was up against it again. But daddy’s little girl, he broke. He broke in thirty. Oh, just not the man your daddy wanted you to be, huh, Dean?
Because JOHN WAS NEVER THE ONE THAT NEEDED TO BREAK. But Alastair was intimately familiar with Dean’s experience, intimately familiar with how to HURT DEAN SPECIFICALLY, and this was an excellent try. But John… was NEVER the righteous man who needed to break, according to the prophecy. It ALWAYS had to be Dean. So… why would John have been tortured that way?
Not to mention, if John HAD been literally strapped to Alastair’s table, tortured constantly for his entire time in Hell, then how the heck did he manage to sneak out the Hellgate in 2.22? Like… think about it for a second.
The demons who escaped were essentially “in the right place at the right time,” because the one demon Azazel was trying to let out– which we won’t learn until 4.22– was Lilith.
We assume that the other demons who managed to sneak through before the gates were slammed shut happened to be Lilith-adjacent– such as Ruby (who knew Lilith’s whole plan from the start), and other demons who were already loyal to Lilith (such as Casey from 3.04, and Tammi from 3.09, and eventually all the demons Lilith surrounded herself with in 3.12 and 3.16).
And yet… out strolled John Winchester. Because Hell literally didn’t need him anymore. Dean had already made his deal. The clock was ticking on the guy they ACTUALLY needed. And heck if that doesn’t parallel exactly what Zachariah said to Adam in 5.18:
ZACHARIAH: Hey, don’t get me wrong. You’ve been a hell of a sport, really. Good stuff. But the thing is, you’re not so much the “chosen one” as you are…a clammy scrap of bait.ADAM: No…but what about the stuff that you said? I’m supposed to fight the devil.ZACHARIAH: Mmm, not so much. Hey, if it’s any consolation, you happen to be the illegitimate half-brother of the guy we do care about. That’s not bad, is it?ADAM: So you lied…about everything.ZACHARIAH: We didn’t lie. We just avoided certain truths to manipulate you.
Because that’s the thing with this show– Heaven and Hell are pretty much the same. Sam goals, same methods, same objectives, just with a different set of aesthetics, a different interior decorator if you will.
If John had actually been tortured the way Alastair claimed in 4.16, would he have just been at liberty to conveniently stroll through the gate in 2.22? Would he have even been able to leave at all? Would he have looked so fresh as a daisy? I mean
Looks pretty good for a dude just strolled outta hell, you know? Not even the least bit demon-y, right? And we know it takes a heck of a lot less time than a century for a human soul to be demonized in Hell… So everything else– aside from Alastair’s statement to Dean in 4.16, which was a deliberately targeted barb specifically said to make Dean doubt himself while he was actively torturing the demon who’d tortured HIM for four decades and therefore HIGHLY suspect in context of the rest of canon– would suggest that John had been basically stashed in Hell’s Cold Storage for about 8 months while the demons were meticulously arranging circumstances on Earth to set up the events of 2.21-2.22, luring Dean into selling his soul for Sam, and Azazel getting the Devil’s Gate opened to let Lilith escape.
Because strangely enough, I believe the Crossroads Demon in 2.08 more than I trust Alastair in 4.16:
DEAN: Can you bring him back? My dad?DEMON: Of course I can. Just as he was. Your dad would live a long and natural life, like he was meant to. That’s a promise.DEAN: What about me?DEMON: I could give you ten years. Ten long good years with him. That’s a lifetime. The family can be together again. John, Dean, Sammy. The Winchester boys all reunited. (she advances towards him) Look. Your dad’s supposed to be alive. You’re supposed to be dead. So we’ll just set things straight, put things back in their natural order. And you get ten extra years on top. That’s a bonus.
John was never the one they actually wanted. John was never going to work as the Righteous Man, or as Michael’s True Vessel for the purposes of the specific prophecies of the Apocalypse. As Gabriel once said in 5.08:
GABRIEL: You sorry sons of bitches. Why do you think you two are the vessels? Think about it. Michael, the big brother, loyal to an absent father, and Lucifer, the little brother, rebellious of Daddy’s plan. You were born to this, boys. It’s your destiny! It was always you! As it is in heaven, so it must be on earth. One brother has to kill the other.DEAN: What the hell are you saying?GABRIEL: Why do you think I’ve always taken such an interest in you? Because from the moment Dad flipped on the lights around here, we knew it was all gonna end with you. Always.
So… no, I think John’s tenure in Hell was probably a boring (compared to Dean’s) few months spent adjacent to Lilith so she could keep an eye on him in case Dean did take some sort of demon deal to trade his life back for John’s before they were scheduled to.
And finally, a bit of a Doylist justification for all of that: I don’t think any of this was planned back when s2 was being written. I don’t think they’d considered the later retcon of s4 and Dean’s “forty years” in Hell while writing s2. I don’t think they’d thought any of this was part of some larger prophecy of the Apocalypse yet. None of that came about until 4.01, because there had NEVER been any intent to introduce Angels or Heaven into the cosmology of that universe until that point anyway. So… they made the most out of what they had already stated canonically, and left it to us to make the most sense out of it. And this ^^ is my best, least plot-holey, most canon-compliant theory based on the entirety of canon. :)
That’s a nice piece of foreshadowing right there.
Dean Winchester | SPN 2.08