hello, I've sort of migrated here from Twitter. If you have the time I was wondering if the things I got from twitter/tiktok are correct.
In the books valyrian's are the only people in world who can bond with dragons?
In the books Targs are immune to heat/fire and sickness because their blood is magic?
Hightower's tower was made with dragon fire despite it predating Valyria?
There are other buildings around the world in asoiaf which also used dragon fire but also predate Valyria and their dragons?
Someone told me on tiktok that the OG asoiaf dragons went extinct and Valyrian magicians bred other magic creatures together until they got their version of dragons?
thank you for any help 🙏. I want to get around to reading the books but it's kinda daunting because there's so many of them and they're long and I'm a slow reader 😭
Hey, welcome to Tumblr! (Hope you survive the experience.) Sure, I can answer your questions (certainly better than tiktok and twitter lol sigh), but I do definitely recommend reading the books! Some people find it easier to go with audiobooks (I personally don't, since auditory processing isssues make me tune out in five seconds, same with podcasts, sigh), and that might be a big help for you? But anyway, answers below...
1. Yes... um... it's a question. It's stated that Valyrians are the only ones that can bond with dragons, and furthermore, only ones from the dragonriding families of Valyria. (This is part of the "Doctrine of Exceptionalism", which I'll describe later.) The "dragonseeds" who rode dragons during the Dance were supposedly bastards or descendants of bastards of Targaryens (I'll get to the details in a moment), and we have the example in the current books of Brown Ben Plumm, who Dany's dragons adore, and he is an extremely distant (by like 120 years) descendant of Elaena Targaryen and Aegon IV Targaryen.
However, the dragonseed and dragonrider Addam of Hull, per the histories a bastard of Laenor Velaryon (son of Rhaenys Targaryen), was almost certainly actually the bastard of Corlys Velaryon, and the Velaryons were not a dragonriding family. Though it's possible that one of the pre-Conquest Targaryen ladies married into House Velaryon, so it's not that exceptional. The greater problem is the dragonseed Nettles, of no known background, called out by the narrative as looking distinctly un-Valyrian (she's brown, and note the Velaryons are white in the books), who tamed her dragon by feeding it sheep until it started to like her. Many theorize that while Valyrian blood makes it easy to bond with dragons (due to likely blood magic/genetic bonding with dragons in ancient times, as they claim to be descended from dragons), it is still possible to create that bond the hard way, as the early Valyrians were once a mere tribe of shepherds who discovered dragons nesting in a local chain of volcanoes. The full answer is one of the greater mysteries of ASOIAF, and will hopefully be resolved in later books. (Along with whoever the riders of Dany's other two dragons will be.)
2. Per GRRM, Targaryens are not immune to fire, but they do have some heat resistance, and enjoy things like hot baths and hot weather. The only one actually immune to fire was Dany, and specifically only during the miracle of her dragons' birth. (During her taming of Drogon right before she rode him the first time, she received burns on her hands.) Many Targaryens have died or been injured by fire, including Viserys Targaryen (Dany's brother and his "golden crown"), Aerion Targaryen (he drank wildfire because he thought it would turn him into a dragon. It didn't), Rhaenys Targaryen the Queen Who Never Was, Daeron "the Daring" Targaryen, Aegon II Targaryen, and Rhaenyra Targaryen.
As for illness, the "Doctrine of Exceptionalism" was a religious precept that King Jaehaerys I worked out with the Faith of the Seven, to give the Targaryens an exception on the Faith's anti-incest stance. It stated that Targaryens were different, exceptional, special people, closer to gods than men, because of their unique silver-gold hair and purple eyes, because they alone rode dragons, and because they never got sick. "There was fire in the blood of the dragon, it was reasoned, a purifying fire that burned out all such plagues." However, only a few years after Jaehaerys made this agreement (and married his sister Alysanne), their 7-year-old daughter Daenerys died of the Shivers, a severe-flu-like epidemic. (This put great doubt in their heart, but did anyone do anything about it? lol no.) Their daughter Maegelle later died of greyscale, and their son Baelon died of appendicitis. Later Targaryens have died of other epidemics, of the pox, of tuberculosis, and other diseases.
However -- some Targaryens have shown surprising resistance to illness. Aegon III sat with many victims of the Winter Fever epidemic, and never showed any symptoms. Dany herself cannot recall ever getting sick. (She is not immune to being poisoned, though.) There may be something specifically connected to being a dragonrider (though Baelon was one), or more specifically being a potential Prince That Was Promised? Again, this is connected to the greater mysteries of ASOIAF, to be resolved later.
3 & 4. The base of the Hightower -- not the tower itself, but its first level -- is an ancient fortress made of fused black stone, which is similar to Valyrian construction made by melting stone with dragonfire (such as the castle of Dragonstone, the walls of Volantis, and the Valyrian roads). However, it predates the Valyrian empire by millennia, and is plain without decoration, unlike how the Valyrians would twist the melted stone into artistic forms. There are also other ancient structures in the world, the Five Forts on the eastern border of Yi Ti, that are also made of this fused black stone in this plain style. Some maesters also think the Hightower fortress's labyrinthine design is similar to the Mazes of Lorath, also ancient structures, made by a vanished giant not-quite-human species (called the Mazemakers) in pre-history. GRRM has said "there were dragons everywhere, once" (there are indeed records of dragons in Westeros before Valyria, and dragon bones found in far distant places in the world) and the truly ancient Asshai'i histories claim to have taught the Valyrians the secrets of dragons, so there's a theory that there was a dragonriding culture long before the Valyrians who left behind these fused black stone structures. (More on this in the next answer, and you can see an older theory post of mine on the subject here. Also note I am certain this culture was not the Great Empire of the Dawn, they're unrelated.) One more great mystery!
5. Yeeahh... this may be true. Or it might not be. Septon Barth (Jaehaerys's Hand of the King, and a great researcher into the origins of dragons, with theories that made maesters call him crazy and the Faith burn his books) apparently theorized in his Unnatural History that the Valyrian dragons may have been created via bloodmagic, possibly by breeding wyverns (flying reptiles that do not breathe fire), possibly with firewyrms (wingless/legless earth-boring creatures that do breathe fire). There's also (as I said above) Valyrian legends that claim they found dragons nesting in the Fourteen Flames, but ancient texts from Asshai claim that dragons first came from the Shadow (the mountains around Asshai), and an ancient nameless people brought them to Valyria and taught the Valyrians the magic needed to control them. And there's a myth from Qarth that there used to be another moon that cracked open like an egg and millions of dragons came out. We do not yet know the true answer.
GRRM recently said "Septon Barth got most of it right", but what is "most"? Was there an incredibly ancient vanished species of dragons that the original Valyrians re-created? Did these Valyrians somehow breed these new dragons with themselves to make them easier to control? What we do know is that occasionally Targaryens have had monstrous dragon-like stillbirths. We do know that very rarely a dragon egg has hatched a "broken thing" that dies quickly, or a monstrous wingless wyrm that attacks its cradlemate, with no known reason why. We know that in the ruins of Valyria since its Doom, there are apparently mutated creatures that can lay eggs containing "worms with faces" and "snakes with hands" in human flesh, a horrific experience witnessed by Septon Barth that sent him on his path. It's a great great mystery, and there will apparently be an answer one day.
BTW, many of these huge mysteries were introduced in The World of Ice & Fire, if you want to read just one book. However, TWOIAF is not a story like the actual books, it's a history/geography book, and if you want more than lore, if you want addictively enjoyable characters and amazing dialogue and a truly excellent story, again I highly recommend reading the main books. The lore and the mysteries are very interesting, sure, but they're not what's really kept me in this fandom for 13 years now, you know?
can i ask what your thoughts about the oily black stone are then? how do you think all the instances of it around the world connect, if at all? and do you think there's anything to be said about all different cultures around planetos having a similar story like azor ahai/the last hero? i agree with your points about the unsavory racial elements behind the geotd theory but i'm interested if you think other parts of the theory aside from the ancient world-spanning blonde-haired purple-eyed superrace are bunk bc i think george definitely did leave clues pointing to SOMETHING in twoiaf :)
Oh, I definitely have thoughts about the black stone! And also the Long Night, and perhaps another war against the Enemy that happened millennia before that, even, with its remnants in the Five Forts, the mazes of Lorath, the base of the Hightower, and Asshai. You can see those posts here: 1 2 3 4 5. Check those out, as well as my black stone and Deep Ones tags for any other commentary I've made on the subject, and let me know if you have any questions after that.
Do you think that Westeros and Essos are connected through the northern pole and that's the reason why there are tales of the long night in the far east?
No, they’re not, sorry. According to GRRM, “only Westeros extends to the far north” – north of Essos is the Shivering Sea only, with no connection to the pole.
And according to ancient tales from Yi Ti, the demons of the Lion of Night came from the Grey Waste, beyond the line of hulking structures of fused black stone called the Five Forts. (The same kind of fused black stone that forms the base of the Hightower.)
I think that what lies beyond the Five Forts is something else – possibly another gate to another place of horrors, like the heart of winter, beyond the curtain of light at the end of the world. History is a wheel…
Are the Five Forts along with other structures like the mazes of Lorath basically the Essosi counterparts to the Wall in northern Westeros? We know the "Doom of Man" will come from Westeros. Is there a chance other evils came from other places? Or are the Others the single great threat over a wheel of time? Sorry, I know it's a big question.
Got a post directly addressing all of these questions right here. I mean, all of them. I actually think you may have seen that post already, but it’s no worries if you forgot. ;)
Also, y’all, if you want to imagine what the battle at the Five Forts vs the Shrykes and other Enemies might’ve been like, go watch The Great Wall. Not a bad movie, considering, and imagining it’s Yi Ti just makes it more entertaining for an ASOIAF fan. :)
But I got the SSM pdf (did I give you the SSM pdf?) after I read twoiaf and GRRM said Essos doesn't extend all the way up, so, in terms of the Five Forts, are you arguing for continental drift and they once protected against the Others? Or are you arguing that the Five Forts were just Cthulu's military organization like the Watch in the past few centuries and defended against invaders? (I'm on mobile so I can't look the GRRM quote up, maybe I'm wrong?)
You don't need to give me the SSM pdf, I have a SSM search engine in my browser. (It's how I get those GRRM quotes so quickly.) I know only Westeros extends to the far north, it's not relevant. Things that are relevant:
“I have dreamed of your Wall, Jon Snow. Great was the lore that raised it, and great the spells locked beneath its ice. We walk beneath one of the hinges of the world.” -- Melisandre, ADWD
Certain scholars from the west have suggested Valyrian involvement in the construction of the Five Forts, for the great walls are single slabs of fused black stone that resemble certain Valyrian citadels in the west... but this seems unlikely, for the Forts predate the Freehold's rise, and there is no record of any dragonlords ever coming so far east. --The World of Ice and Fire
No discussion of Yi Ti would be complete without a mention of the Five Forts, a line of hulking ancient citadels that stand along the far northeastern frontiers of the Golden Empire, between the Bleeding Sea (named for the characteristic hue of its deep waters, supposedly a result of a plant that grows only there) and the Mountains of the Morn. The Five Forts are very old, older than the Golden Empire itself; some claim they were raised by the Pearl Emperor during the morning of the Great Empire to keep the Lion of Night and his demons from the realms of men… and indeed, there is something godlike, or demonic, about the monstrous size of the forts, for each of the five is large enough to house ten thousand men, and their massive walls stand almost a thousand feet high.
Of the lands that lie beyond the Five Forts, we know even less. [...] Whispers reach us of the Grey Waste and its cannibal sands, and of the Shrykes who live there, half-human creatures with green-scaled skin and venomous bites. Are these truly lizard-men, or (more likely) men clad in the skins of lizards? Or are they no more than fables, the grumkins and snarks of the eastern deserts? And even the Shrykes supposedly live in terror of K’dath in the Grey Waste, a city said to be older than time, where unspeakable rites are performed to slake the hunger of mad gods.
--The World of Ice and Fire
How long the darkness endured no man can say, but all agree that it was only when a great warrior—known variously as Hyrkoon the Hero, Azor Ahai, Yin Tar, Neferion, and Eldric Shadowchaser—arose to give courage to the race of men and lead the virtuous into battle with his blazing sword Lightbringer that the darkness was put to rout, and light and love returned once more to the world.
--The World of Ice and Fire
Things I take from this:
The Five Forts are one of the hinges of the world, like the Wall.
K'Dath (a reference to Lovecraft's Kadath) is the east Essos version of what lies beyond the curtain of light at the end of the world.
There was a great war in pre-history, possibly with the Others, possibly with the Deep Ones/Elder Gods. (Are the Others descendants of one of the Elder Gods, exiled to the north pole?)
Time is a wheel. This war may have been at the same time as the Long Night in Westeros that led to the establishment of the Wall, or it might be that history repeated itself thousands of years later at a different "world hinge". It could be that this battle has happened many times, which is why there are so many names for the hero who saved the world. (Besides Jordan, GRRM might also be referencing Moorcock here; certainly he's referenced Campbell.)
Either way, there was a hero who saved humanity and established the Five Forts in Essos to keep the Enemy from coming back. And like the Wall, their true purpose has been forgotten, and all they do now is "guard the marches of the Golden Empire against raiders out of the Grey Waste."
Note, I believe there's two types of prehistorical black stone: the greasy, oily black stone that the Seastone Chair and Asshai and Yeen are made of, and the blocky, fused black stone seen at the Five Forts and the Hightower. I think the greasy stone belonged to the Enemy, and the blocky stone belonged to the Defenders. (The mazemakers of Lorath, destroyed by an enemy from the sea, may have been Defenders who lost their war.) That the blocky black stone is fused similarly to Valyrian construction but not in the Valyrian style suggests that the Defenders may have had dragons, which could explain why there are stories of dragons all over the world dated long before the Valyrians tamed the ones living in the Fourteen Flames.
As for Westeros, the Wall, and the coming War for the Dawn, TWOIAF does have one tantalizing clue:
Septon Barth’s claim that the Valyrians came to Westeros because their priests prophesied that the Doom of Man would come out of the land beyond the narrow sea can safely be dismissed as nonsense, as can many of Barth’s queerer beliefs and suppositions. --TWOIAF
lol no, Yandel. Septon Barth was right. And this gives more more evidence for the theory that the Prince That Was Promised prophecy is tied in with Aegon's Conquest -- that Aegon conquered Westeros because he believed he or his descendants would be needed there to save humanity from the return of the Others. (It could also explain why Aegon married twice, because that's how he understood the meaning of "the dragon must have three heads".)
But I'm still not sure why the PTWP prophecy is a variation of Azor Ahai Reborn that seems to require Targaryen blood. I was hoping TWOIAF would explain further, maybe give more info on Daenys the Dreamer's prophecies, but sadly Yandel and Gyldayn are skeptics and only relate Aegon's political motivations. Well, and GRRM wasn't going to spoil us for the big secrets of ASOIAF with that book. Guess we'll have to wait for TWOW, with luck Sam's Citadel studies or Archmaester Marwyn (in Dany's POV hopefully) will tell us more.
