Hi~ What did you think of the Tyrion's plan to take the rock being based on him having had a door built to smuggle whores in rather than his knowledge of the sewers? When I heard that I was just like "???". Like why the hell would he knowingly make an entrance that could be used against his family if found by an enemy? And how the hell could the tunnel even be built and used without Tywin learning of it? How do you think show Tywin would have reacted had he found out about it?
I think you’re asking the wrong questions, tbh.
It’s not important to the writers to consider all the ramifications of a single narrative choice as long as it works visually and is emotionally resonant in the moment it happens—what did they say? “creatively it made sense to us”, or something. This is the reasoning behind most of their choices. The show will ALWAYS prioritize this approach, and I’ve made peace with that, to a point where I’ve simply stopped agonizing over these details in the first place.
Book!Tyrion, like you said, will probably take the Rock via his knowledge of the castle’s sewers, acquired because he was commanded to make some maintenance, not build it from scratch—which I suppose would be a high profile engineering work and not a task that Tywin would realistically give to a sixteen years old Tyrion to teach him some humility. But having show!Tyrion actually BUILD a secret passage for whores a) simplifies Tyrion’s contribution into something less subtle (knowledge vs action), b) allows for a nice scene in which the Unsullied breach the Rock via a trapdoor while Tyrion is monologuing about how his dissolute, lonely past turned out to be valuable after all.
It’s consistent with the show’s representation of Tyrion as essentially a trickster figure who was always working for the /good guys/ even when he didn’t know it yet, rather than a layered, complex individual who spent most of his life being traumatized by his abusive dad (and certainly wouldn’t have taken the risk of being caught smuggling women inside the heart of house Lannister, via a secret tunnel that HE built, no less. Tywin would have crucified him on the spot.)
The bright side is that it’s a nod to book!Tywin’s secret passage for whores in KL, so there’s that. (though I’m not sure if it’s intentional or not, because the show usually avoids to create direct similarities between Tyrion and Tywin, see: the missed opportunity to give Olenna Genna’s speech about Tyrion being Tywin’s real son, as some noted on twitter.)
Do you think Tyrion is going to kill Jaime? And do you think his hate for Jaime is justifiable?
As much as I love Jaime, I hate the fact that he was involved in the Tysha incident. And I think he deserves to get some kind of comeuppance for it, or at least needs to take responsibility for what he did.
I’m inclined to believe him, since it’s basically his Honesty Hour, when he tells Tyrion that he had no idea of what their father was going to do to the girl. But that lie alone did plenty of damage. (under the cut for triggering content)
Not only it denied Tyrion the knowledge that, as some point in his life, a girl truly loved him with no ulterior motive. But it also made it impossible for him to process what happened without being overwhelmed by an intolerable amount of self-loathing, shame and misplaced guilt. On top of the gang rape (in which, both Tyrion and Tysha were victims, let’s stress this again), Tywin distorted the reality to specifically drill in Tyrion the notion that it all happened because of his gullibility, his delusional desire to be loved (mercilessly exploiting his not-so-secret insecurities: “I had feared it from the start, from the moment you first smiled at me and let me touch your hand. My own father could not have loved me. Why would you if not for gold?”).
Tywin didn’t just want Tyrion to be punished. He wanted him to be humiliated, and to feel complicit in his own humiliation, even responsible for it. This is psychological abuse, and had devastating consequences on Tyrion’s sense of self worth, his relationships with women, his ability to have functional relationships in general.
All of this happened with Jaime’s help, although in the form of a “small” lie backing up Tywin’s version. That lie was as effective as it was precisely because it was told by Tyrion’s only friend, his big brother:
When he said that he had bought you for me, I never doubted him. Why would I? He was Jaime, and you were just some girl who’d played a part.
Now, Jaime was 20-21 at the time of the incident, and a kingsguard. He was a grown adult, not a child; this makes his acquiescence to Tywin’s treatment of Tyrion/Tysha all the more infuriating. Personally, though, I think what’s really vile is not Jaime’s lie in itself and for itself (I can think of a million reasons why he might have felt intimidated by his father at the time even though he was an able-bodied adult, or why he might have misjudged lying about Tysha as “protecting” Tyrion) but the fact that he had YEARS to come clean and never did.
Jaime never mentions Tysha by her name in his internal monologue, and overall rarely thinks about her. Moreover, he seems bizarrely convinced that Tyrion loves him for that lie (= for telling the “truth” about Tysha’s real identity, or for believing that Jaime bought him his first whore, as “I am loved by one for a kindness I never did” seems to suggest), which means he has no real grasp on the impact that lie had on Tyrion, or on the gravity of the incident in general, and feels guilty for the wrong reason. His coming clean to Tyrion about Tysha is all about himself, about clearing his own conscience, rather than doing the two of them justice. It’s not like he expected to pay a price at all, and is completely taken aback by Tyrion’s reaction upon learning the truth—much to his shock, his brother does not seem to be exhilarated by his sudden sincerity, and appears reluctant to part ways on good terms!
So, it’s not like Tyrion doesn’t have a reason to feel the way he feels about Jaime’s betrayal.
The extent of that hatred, however… Tyrion’s thoughts about Jaime are downright homicidal. Planning to murder people in cold blood is not something I’m going to applaud any time soon, and even with all the discussion above, death is not an appropriate retribution for being dishonest. Indeed, Tyrion’s adwd pov has twisted my stomach in many occasions, and I don’t think we’re supposed to absorb his perspective uncritically, or make the leap from “understanding how he feels” to “everything he feels is justified”.
But, as things are now, Tyrion hasn’t really acted on his murderous fantasies about Jaime (aside from bargaining for a place in the Second Sons, in what seems more like a Hail Mary to save his own ass than a concrete plan to bring destruction onto his remaining relatives—it might eventuallyevolve into this, but for now Tyrion is kind of improvising). So I’m going to give him the benefit of the doubt. Those fantasies might stay fantasies, after all. (I think this is a general rule that fandom should apply more often: we can condemn actions, not thoughts popping out in an unfiltered internal monologue. People have a right to think horrible things, what matters is how they decide to act upon those thoughts. And the jury is still out in this case, because Tyrion hasn’t had the chance to do anything with regards to Jaime. Yet.)
To get to your initial question, I don’t think Tyrion will actually kill Jaime.
—First, I think that becoming a kinslayer for the second time would have devastating consequences on him, in a part of the story where he’s instead required to step up to his role as savior of the world (as I generally subscribe to the idea of Tyrion as the third head, or at least heavily involved in the war for the dawn). Look at what patricide did to him; killing Jaime (that Tyrion has always loved MUCH more than Tywin, and still does) would make him sink into the abyss so deep that I can’t fathom what kind of magic trick George could manage to pull him back on track;
—considering that Jaime is likely the valonqar, it’d feel a bit… redundant if another Lannister kills his sibling in a mix of anger&despair. How much tragedy and romanticized murder do we need in this family? (though to be honest I don’t think this would necessarily stop grrm. I am not a fan of the idea, but I’m not the author, Martin is, and he’s not above… certain things)
—note how as Tyrion’s adwd arc proceeds, his feelings for Jaime also slowly shift from unabashed hatred…
Tyrion pictured how his sister’s head might look up there, with tar in her golden hair and flies buzzing in and out of her mouth. Yes, and Jaime must have the spike beside her, he decided. No one must ever come between my brother and my sister.
“A Lannister is not a lion. Yet I am still my father’s son, and Jaime and Cersei are mine to kill.“
(Tyrion I, ADWD)
…to a much more bittersweet, if still intensely resentful, sadness:
His thoughts turned to Tysha, who had so briefly been his lady wife. It was Jaime, he thought, despairing. He was my own blood, my big strong brother. When I was small he brought me toys, barrel hoops and blocks and a carved wooden lion. He gave me my first pony and taught me how to ride him. (Tyrion V)
[Penny:] “I miss him so much. My brother. I…” “I understand.” He found himself thinking of Jaime. Count yourself lucky. Your brother died before he could betray you. (Tyrion VIII)
The painted wooden armor clattered as Pretty trotted across the deck. Tyrion’s armpits were prickly with perspiration, and a bead of sweat was trickling down his scar beneath the oversized, ill-fitting helm, yet for one absurd moment he felt almost like Jaime, riding out onto a tourney field with lance in hand, his golden armor flashing in the sun. (Tyrion IX)
“What do you miss, Halfman?“ Jaime, thought Tyrion. […] (Tyrion XII)
Even back in asos, in the wake of learning the truth about Tysha, Tyrion is massively conflicted about his brother:
Jaime turned without a word and walked away. Tyrion watched him go, striding on his long strong legs, and part of him wanted to call out, to tell him that [the fact he killed Joffrey] wasn’t true, to beg for his forgiveness. But then he thought of Tysha, and he held his silence. (Tyrion XI, ASOS)
Also this:
That night Tyrion Lannister dreamed of a battle that turned the hills of Westeros as red as blood. He was in the midst of it, dealing death with an axe as big as he was, fighting side by side with Barristan the Bold and Bittersteel as dragons wheeled across the sky above them. In the dream he had two heads, both noseless. His father led the enemy, so he slew him once again. Then he killed his brother, Jaime, hacking at his face until it was a red ruin, laughing every time he struck a blow. Only when the fight was finished did he realize that his second head was weeping. (Tyrion II)
Tyrion dreams of himself as a two-headed monster, and while he kills Jaime, one head laughs, but the other one weeps. This is early in adwd, but Tyrion’s subconscious is already showing that his feelings for Jaime are much more ambivalent than his conscious internal monologue would like them to be. I suppose you could see this bit as foreshadowing of what is going to happen (tyrion also fantasized about killing his father), but imo this works better as simply a window into Tyrion’s subconscious.
Also, speaking from a narrative perspective I don’t think Tyrion killing Jaime would have the same climatic poignancy of Tyrion killing Tywin. Tywin’s murder is not a cathartic act and in fact fucks up Tyrion’s fragile psyche even more, but in terms of storytelling it feels… earned. I mean, we had three books leading up to this breaking point, building up tension, piling up shit on Tyrion who keeps bottling up his hurt until he explodes. With Jaime, it falls more in line with the classic “driven apart by a lie” scenario that is an overused (and in some cases, contrived) source of conflict between characters who ultimately care for each other. I really hope grrm wises up and resists the temptation of emotionally scarring Tyrion even more by having him kill his older brother, arguably one of the few real friends he’s ever had.
I think the two of them will have a final confrontation, maybe an individual one, maybe being at the head of opposite armies, but when the moment comes Tyrion won’t have the heart to kill his own brother, that he still loves despite everything.
I think deep down Tywin loved Tyrion. I know he did awful things to him, but that was his personality, he did bad things to everybody. And I think Tyrion also loved his father even though he didn't show it.
I honestly don’t think Tywin ever loved Tyrion, or even ever tried to.
It’s the only conclusion that makes sense in my opinion. This isn’t your average conflicted father/son relationship, this is a story of straight up child abuse, one in which GRRM doesn’t even attempt to shoehorn a reconciliation as one would probably expect from a prodigal son-kind of narrative (really: how many of us thought that Tyrion would eventually win his father’s respect and even admiration thanks to his wits and personality, before ASOS? That Tywin would finally embrace his dwarf son and recognize his error? But no. No matter how badly he wanted to, redeeming himself in his abuser’s eyes was never supposed to be the point of Tyrion’s arc. Thankfully.)
For one thing, I just don’t buy the idea that Tywin was able to love his child despite his deformity. This is an awfully ableist man in a medieval(ish) society that doesn’t particularly encourage fatherly affection (at least, not the way we intend it), where highborn children are raised by wet nurses, septas and maesters much more than by their actual parents, and disabled children are considered to be better off dead. Even if Tywin hadn’t been, well, Tywin, he’d have very little societal or ideological pressure to form a bond with a disabled child. Tyrion’s dwarfism is both a mark of weakness (unacceptable, for a man like Tywin, all concerned with promoting his house’s image of strength, health, wealth, invulnerability) and a public shame, as it makes house Lannister, and Tywin himself, the butt end of jokes and ableist mockery. Combined with the fact that his birth killed Joanna, the love of his life, that’s all Tywin needs to loathe the kid with a fiery passion from the moment he took his first breath. Of course, much to his scorn, Tyrion is also a trueborn Lannister and, for this, and this only, Tywin concedes him to live – allows him to dress like a nobleman, to have guards, to be nominally respected.
But make no mistake, it’s not Tyrion’s self esteem or dignity or whatnot that he has at heart when he forbids him to take a trip to the Free Cities, or when he unleashes Gregor on the Riverlands in retaliation for his abduction, or when he appoints him Hand in his absence rather than resorting to Kevan or other trustworthy men, or when he destroys his marriage with Tysha – it’s his own reputation and respectability, and that of House Lannister. He protects his pack, and alas, the pack includes Tyrion. Tywin himself says so: “The honor of our House was at stake. I had no choice but to ride. No man sheds Lannister blood with impunity.” And so does Tyrion: “Lord Tywin Lannister cared not a fig for his deformed son, but he tolerated no slights on the honor of his House.” They’re both aware that this is the reason Tywin does anything for his deformed son. The world must know that even a dwarf Lannister is worth more than anyone else. That’s the facade Tywin is determined to maintain. He cannot conceal Tyrion’s deformity, so he demands that Tyrion keeps a profile as low as he can and does his bidding. But don’t believe for a second that he does for Tyrion’s benefit or because he actually cares for him.
Also, I agree Tywin is a terrible person, but he is definitely capable of forming loving bonds with people. It’s not just “the way he is” (as if it could be an excuse). He loved Joanna, and was most certainly loved in return. In his own way, he loved or at least cared for the twins, although he barely showed it. It appears that Genna genuinely adored her big brother, at least until she “disappointed” him. Kevan stayed at his side for all his life (perhaps out of convenience, but still). But with Tyrion, Tywin systematically and deliberately committed to make his life miserable, to make him feel unwanted, to blame him for Joanna’s death, to remind him every second of his disability and how unfit he is to be the heir to Casterly Rock (“Whenever his father’s eyes were on him, he became uncomfortably aware of all his deformities and shortcomings”). Best case scenario, he… tolerated him.
Did he ever feel empathy for him, or at least a degree of compassion? I really don’t think so. I can’t say for sure, because there’s no Tywin pov in the books, but does it even matter? Doesn’t Tyrion’s abuse speak for itself? Do we need to hear Tywin’s voice about this - the abuser’s voice? (I think this is exactly why grrm never wrote tywin’s pov. We shouldn’t bend over backwards to find redeeming angles in his treatment of his son – sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, and an awful father is just an awful father)
As for Tyrion loving Tywin… more than loving him, Tyrion wanted to be loved by him. The abuse and humiliation Tywin inflicted upon him shaped Tyrion to the point that he grew used to it and learned to be grateful for the rare moments when his father treated him with a modicum of human decency (can you imagine how frightening Tywin must have been to baby Tyrion?) –it’s no surprise he still swings between fearing him, hating him, and a semi-conscious desire to emulate him or at least draw his attention, like Cersei. There’s a part of Tyrion that inevitably puffs with pride when Tywin acknowledges he’s capable enough to be Hand (the other part is incredulous, and there’s yet another part that is furious because he –correctly– guesses that Tywin has turned to him only because his favourite son is m.i.a. and perhaps dead)
But even in his earliest chapters, Tyrion fantasizes about killing him, and it’s clear he’s had these fantasies since forever:
“I used to start fires in the bowels of Casterly Rock and stare at the flames for hours, pretending they were dragonfire. Sometimes I’d imagine my father burning. At other times, my sister.” (AGOT, Tyrion II)
“Where to begin? I am a vile little man, I confess it. […] I have wished my own lord father dead, and my sister, our gracious queen, as well.” (AGOT, Tyrion V)
He dreamt of the sky cell. This time he was the gaoler, not the prisoner, big, with a strap in his hand, and he was hitting his father, driving him back, toward the abyss… (AGOT, Tyrion VI)
I think… it speaks. Tyrion wanted to be recognized by Tywin as a person – not a “half” man, a useless creature or the family’s black sheep. I think this is one of the reasons that eventually triggered his crossbow against his father. Even with an arrow pointed at him, Tywin underestimates and patronizes Tyrion, his rage, his desperation, a terrible mistake in hindsight because this only makes Tyrion angrier and hungrier for recognition.This is why he suffers so much after murdering him. It’s not just the fact that he is a patricide, a kinslayer, that he has turned into the monster everyone thought he was – all of this hurts terribly, but on top of that it’s the fact that killing his father didn’t feel as liberating as he thought he would be; it didn’t feel as retribution, because not even in his final seconds Tywin looked at him with a glimmer of respect in his eyes and even his final words were of disregard and rejection: you are no son of mine (what I said earlier, about grrm deconstructing the whole idea of Tyrion “winning” his father’s respect? this directly echoes the “you are my son” of Tywin putting Tyrion in charge in AGOT, but places the final tombstone upon any expectation of this relationship evolving somehow on a positive note).
ETA:
I approached this ask the way I always do, that is, trying to determine whether there is textual evidence to support the anon’s proposition, and whether GRRM did in fact intend or want the readership to intend the relationship that way. As I explained, the answer is probably no to both.
However, there’s the fiction GRRM is writing and there’s reality.
It was brought to my attention that this reasoning is intrinsically flawed and even harmful, because trying to tell if there are feelings of love by analyzing the actions of abuse promotes a dangerous either/or dichotomy between love and abuse (”If I love you, I can’t abuse you”, and vice versa; “If there are signs of abuse, there can’t be love” and vice versa) that is actually part of the abuse culture. This is a very, very valid objection. The most appropriate way to answer this question would be “So, what?” or “He may have loved Tyrion, but it’s irrelevant”. (I’m gonna admit that my first instinct was to answer exactly this way, but then I decided to go back to the text and expand the notion, and my initial gut reaction went somehow lost in the process)
So, let me clarify a couple of things.
Whether Tywin loved Tyrion or not is ultimately:
a) IMPOSSIBLE TO SAY, because we aren’t in his head. He’s the only one who would know his true feelings for Tyrion, and we have no access to his pov.
b) IRRELEVANT. Even if he loved him, this wouldn’t change, mitigate, contradict or put in another perspective the abuse he inflicted on Tyrion. Love and abuse can coexist in the same person, and abusive actions aren’t necessarily coming from hate, disinterest or cruelty; they can be perpetrated by a loving, caring mind too. This, naturally, doesn’t minimize or excuse their devastating effect on the abused.
Am I the only one freaking out about Tyrion's fate in tonights episode? Dani obviously rides off with Drogon, but what about Tyrion? What do you think?
Hi!
Oh, I’m not worried about Tyrion. I’m pretty sure he’ll take Barristan’s role to some extent after Dany’s gone (that’s probably one the reasons they killed him anyway), and keep ruling the city (I don’t think we will have a battle, but if it comes to that, he’ll deal with it as well). Just my opinion, of course :)
