#zang ba

[exothermicex]

Lu Bu's Army Added Gao Shun & Zang Ba with their Musou Blast designs Was supposed to post more DW art on Twitter, but I had stopped after the AI stuff happened...so its here now!

[the-archlich]

Is it true that Zang Ba wielded a gilded mace and was famous for it?

No. I expect that whoever told you this was confusing a particular government office he held with a generic description of a weapon he used.

The line in question would be in Zang Ba's biography, SGZ 18.3

With Cáo Xiū he suppressed Wú rebels, defeating Lǚ Fàn at Dòngpǔ, summoned as Metal Mace Bearer, ranked Specially Advanced.

與曹休討吳賊，破呂範於洞浦，徵為執金吾，位特進。

執金吾 is a specific governmental position (one frequently translated as Bearer of the Gilded Mace). According to Bielenstein's The Bureaucracy of Han Times:

[catigereptile]

If ghosts are real (which they physically cannot be), how far would they go to haunt somebody/something

Could like. Zang Ba have haunted the O.K. Corral

Wow

I should draw this

[threekingdomsstuff]

Shin Sangoku Musou Blast: Dong Bai, Zang Ba, Li Jue, Guo Si, Zhang Xiu, Zoushi

[the-archlich]

The difference in number of murders between Zang Ba and Gan Ning after their repentance (or in Gan Ning's case, "repentance") is one well-documented arguably proven murder (which is still much worse than no murder) but the way you treat Gan Ning and Zang Ba is like you treated Zang Ba admirably while yoy treated Gan Ning very harshly as if Gan Ning commited 100+ more murder than Zang Ba

I am going to be generous here and assume that all you know about these men is that both were outlaws, and at one point Gan Ning killed a kid. Let me assure you, these men are not comparable.

So first lets talk about Gan Ning’s bandit days. I’m sure you’re picturing the usual bandit activities - robbery, murder, probably rape. And Gan Ning sure did all of that (though I’ll admit there are no specific accounts of the last one.) But he also went beyond that. SGZ 55.8 describes his activities:

Whenever someone met with him, from [commoner to] the senior scribes of the city, if they received Gan Ning well he would party along with them, and if not, he would unleash his followers to rob all their property. He went on like this, robbing and killing within the borders until he was 20-something years old

An annotation from Wu Shu (which also contains flattering stories of Gan Ning’s bravery) adds:

Ning took his chivalric code lightly and often killed people. He was infamous throughout the commandery for hiding in a house and committing murder there. When he went about, if he was on land he had rows of carriages and steeds, and if he was on water he had lines of light ships. His servants all wore embroidered silks that made the roads bright as they walked by. When he traveled, his quarters were often covered with woven silk, and when he left he would cut it all up and throw it away, as a demonstration of his extravagance.

This isn’t just the usual bandit stuff. We aren’t talking about a gang of desperate people with thick arms and nowhere else to turn. This is a man who loved it.

Zang Ba was nothing like this. His SGZ doesn’t have a full translation so I’ll give you de Crespigny’s summary of the relevant points instead:

Zang Ba was the son of Zang Jie. About 180, when he was aged eighteen, Zang Jie was arrested and sent to the commandery capital to be punished for disobeying the Administrator. Zang Ba gathered retainers to rescue him. They escaped together to Donghai, and Zang Ba became known for his strength and courage.

About 185 Zang Ba fought under the new inspector Tao Qian against the local Yellow Turbans. He was appointed a Commandant of Cavalry.

Tao Qian's government deteriorated, and in 193 he was attacked by Cao Cao and repeatedly defeated. Zang Ba then established himself at the head of the Mount Tai bandit groups led by Wu Dun, Yin Li, and the brothers Sun Guan and Sun Kang. He set his base at Kaiyang city in the north of Langye, formerly the capital of the commandery or kingdom. It was probably about this time that he acquired the nickname of Nukou, "Outlaw Slave."

Zang Ba entered a loose alliance with Lu Bu, who was operating in Xu province further to the west, and in 197 he attacked Xiao Jian the Administrator of Langye, whose headquarters were at Ju city. He defeated him and captured his treasury and supplies. Lu Bu expected him to turn over the booty, but Zang Ba did not do so, and when Lu Bu came in person to make the claim Zang Ba and his associates defended themselves and drove him away. As Lu Bu was attacked by Cao Cao in 198, however, Zang Ba led the chieftains from Mount Tai to his support.

Zang Ba only became an outlaw to save his father, and again when Tao Qian’s government collapsed. His group was more about self-defense and support than about attacking people to rob them. This is simply nothing like Gan Ning.

Regarding Gan Ning murdering a child (which you seem weirdly okay with) I am choosing to believe you don’t actually know what happened because this isn’t simply an accident or an example of Gan Ning being overzealous.

Once, a serving boy from Ning’s kitchen committed an offence, and running away he sought Lü Meng’s protection. Fearing that Ning would kill the boy, Meng did not return him right away. Later on, Gan Ning brought gifts to pay respect to Meng’s mother, and just when they were about to ascend to the main hall, [Meng] brought the kitchen boy out to return to Ning. Ning promised Meng that he would not kill him. However, when [Ning] left to go back to his boat, he tied the boy up to a mulberry tree, and taking a bow and arrow he killed him himself. After that, he boarded his boat, and ordered the sailors to lengthen the barge cables while he undressed and lay inside the ship to rest. Meng was greatly ired, and beating the drums, he gathered his troops together preparing to attack Ning on his boat.

This story ends with Lü Meng’s mother talking him out of it because even though he could get away with killing Gan Ning, she didn’t think the subjects of the same leader should be killing each other. Lü Meng’s mother had some bad opinions. But let’s be clear about what happened here:

A servant committed some minor offense and was so terrified of what Gan Ning would do that he fled to Lü Meng. Lü Meng knew that Gan Ning was the sort to kill the kid and refused to turn him over until Gan Ning promised not to hurt him. And then as soon as Lü Meng did turn him over, Gan Ning tied the kid to a tree and shot him. This wasn’t an accident, and it wasn’t even in a moment of anger. Nor was it a formal execution or anything like that. This was cold-blooded, premeditated murder. Lü Meng would have killed Gan Ning over it if his mother hadn’t stopped him.

If you can just dismiss that, there’s no help for you. You’re probably one of Zhang Fei’s defenders too.

Zang Ba never did anything even remotely like this.

[catigereptile]

holy shit guys

This is the new anti-Zang Ba Coalition . . . 

Sun Quan, Yuan Shao, Liu Pan . . . 

I’m fucked

And also flattered, but mainly fucked

Help me

[catigereptile]

Thanks for the answer! Speaking of Ba's dad, what happened to Zang Jie? Did he become a bandit too or did he just stay low?

He fled with Zang Ba (obviously), but I don’t believe there’s any info on what happened to him after that, kinda like the rest of Zang Ba’s family (mom siblings etc). If he was a bandit he wasn’t in charge. I’m sure at least he ended up with his son once his son was a successful Good Guy … 

It’s worth saying that the idea was floated around in the past 1800 years that maybe the whole Zang Ba Dad thing is a made-up story to show filial piety, in which case whoever invented the story maybe just didn’t think it through that far, but I don’t see any reason to *not* believe it. (I’d have to find the source of the idea it’s fake again but I did see it)

[catigereptile]

Filthy low-life bandits

I’m a sellout now 

But I’m gonna try to take over China by Monday because I am so over this game