[nothorses]

T/ERFs really love it when transmascs and transfems hate each other.

They want transmascs to see trans women as if they constantly speak over us, as if they control the narrative, and as if it’s transfems who are at fault for our erasure. It makes it really, really easy for them to convince us that transfems are “socialized male” and therefore love to speak over people & take the spotlight, holding “male privilege” even within the trans community.

Likewise, they love it when transfems see transmascs as upholding the patriarchy by betraying womanhood, taking up too much space, and throwing them under the bus rather than fighting with them against the system that oppresses both of us. It makes it really easy to frame masculinity as a poison; something that, once embodied, will eventually corrupt you and make you An Oppressor.

Both of these narratives contribute to transphobia & T/ERF ideology. It splits us up, it makes us more likely to buy into T/ERF rhetoric (part of why there are to many trans T/ERFs), and it perpetuates both ideas; that men are “inherently evil” and this is inescapable, that masculinity is is “inherently toxic” and should be punished. Both of these ideas hurt all trans people- and cis people, too, of a lot of different marginalized communities.

There are people who fall for it, and it’s important for us to recognize that these are people who have been mislead while trying to find a sense of community, acceptance, and belonging that we all struggle to find- even within the queer community. These are folks who are hurting, and looking for someone to blame.

Trans people are uniquely isolated and ostracized. Transmascs in particular lack a sense of community, and lack support systems due to erasure. Transfems come under fire from all sides due to hypervisibility.

Buying into this idea that we ourselves are the cause of our own community’s oppression & marginalization isn’t helping anyone, and we need to start recognizing the dangerous thought patterns- and narratives- within ourselves and our communities. We need to realize who the actual oppressor is, and start showing each other some compassion and understanding.

[villapaitahinttari]

a transfem demands solidarity from her own community. she demands her comrades to understand and address the imbalances of privilege and power within her own community. a trans man tells her: "shut up, fed."

this is transmisogyny. this is why we need transfeminism. our comrades would rather shut us up, pretend our concerns aren't to be taken seriously, and bully us into silence than do the work to build solidarity with us.

because it's much easier to just silence the whiny transfeminist bitch than look in the mirror and check your privilege, acknowledge your power over us, adress your capacity for harm. it's much easier for queer tme people to pretend we're not to be taken seriously, because it allows them to keep pretending they're just harmless little smol beans with no power over us. this allows them to continue abusing that power over us unchecked.

I'm sick of this shit. take transfems seriously. take transfeminism seriously. if you actually care about us, if you actually see us as part of this community, if you actually want to build solidarity with us, you'd stop shutting us down, ignoring us, belittling us at every opportunity.

take transfeminism seriously or get fucked.

[transfemme-shelterdog]

> talks about how you just want solidarity

> claims that trans men and transmascs hold power over transfems, calls them TME,

Yeah that's not how you gain solidarity. You have to be kind and not insult those you're trying to build a community with.

Trans men and transmascs don't hold any gender based privilege or power over transfems and trans women. Downplaying *their* struggles by calling them liars and that you're the only one who knows what it's like to be transmasculine, as someone who *isn't* transmasculine, isn't okay. Start treating people with respect, and it'll be returned. THAT'S how you do solidarity.

[sapphoslilhelper]

I gotta address this misconception now that I've seen it twice. Y'ALL -

Transmasculine people have BEEN writing feminist theory centering the trans experience - Judith Butler, Jack Halberstam, José Esteban Muñoz (edit - incredible theorist, not transmasc sorry!!!), Toby Beauchamp, Hil Malatino, Abram J. Lewis, Christopher Lee...

Do not believe anyone who tells you transmasculine people aren't speaking about our experiences, aren't theorizing, aren't publishing theory.

Do not be complicit in our erasure.

[the-importantstufd]

Trans ppl made terfism woke . How much % are nonbinary people evil? Does it depend on how “man” passing they look😊

[easternhognose]

By the first persons logic, trans men are men who have not confronted the patriarchal system? We transitioned into men without ever being aware of systemic problems facing women? We lived as women, are seen as confused little girls and mutilated women but we don't do anything to change the system?

Genuinely how does a man like me a man who used to be a girl a man who has faced endless political and personal harassment for failing to be a proper girl a man exist in this person's framework of manhood being evil?

How do transmen not question masculine privilege, even in the one in a million hypothetical where we pass perfect and now have all the male privilege of a cis man (as long as we don't need reproductive healthcare and no one ever finds out our trans identity) we still lived as women and girls for at least some of our lives in a patriarchal society.

I think trans men are some of the most capable of calling out and understanding systems of gender oppression and sexism. To live on both sides helps you understand things in a way cis people don't.

[lookmomnouterus]

Can someone please tell me who is centering trans men in any of this?

Focusing on transfems and transfemicide is important and should be our primary focus. However ignoring transmasc murder and erasure doesn’t help with that. I’d even go as far to say that the murder and erasure of transmasculine people in records of their murder is a form of femicide, too. At least that’s the intention of it. It’s to mislabel the trans man as a woman in order to erase his transness and add him to the list of cisgender femicide

I feel like we continue to ignore the elephant in the room with this. Transphobes don’t care

[the-importantstufd]

I know more trans women who were victims of fatal hatecrimes than I do trans men. I dont think either is over or under reported (although many aren’t reported at all) it just depends on what media one consumes and looks at.

Its disgusting that anyone would respond to a person getting murdered because theyre trans with something like this because theyre not a woman. What kind of selfcentered and cruel person do you have to be to make someones death about your social outrage? Even more so calling for the focus to shift onto something else, as if one trans persons life is worth more. As if one person being killed can be taken lightly in any context.

Arguing over words and definitions is so dystopian when a person has been killed because of transphobia. But of course who is allowed to use which words is much more important than that. Great activism.

[werenotreallystrangers]

a lot of your suffering comes from treating your nature like a problem to manage instead of a design to understand

[prometheist]

the way anti-trans people speak about us, I’ve noticed that they don’t actually treat trans men and trans women that differently. They simply focus their energy on different age groups. When trans men are discussed, we are only children. Teenage/tween trans men are the main focus of transandrophobia from these groups, because we fit the agenda of “vulnerable delicate women” who are harder to view as men or people with agency. We are less likely to pass and more likely to have mental health issues, and therefore are easier to pass off as defective and hysterical girls.

meanwhile, trans women are almost exclusively framed as middle-aged or older. This allows them to be viewed as more mature and cunning compared to younger people. In addition, older women are less likely to fit traditional beauty standards, so this gives them an easier time making a “gross ugly predator” argument.

however, when forced to acknowledge trans people of other age groups, they pretty much stick to the same playbook. Older trans men are no longer treated as pitiable women, but as some sort of gross third gender, similar to trans women. They are considered part of the ring of predators trying to steal your children. And, importantly, are considered ugly. Transitioned trans men are not seen as attractive to “normal” men or women. conversely, young trans women are treated very similar to young trans men. The “they’re trying to cut off your son’s dick” line is well-used. And they are not treated as a weird third gender like adult trans people, and rather are categorized as vulnerable boys being preyed upon by the “actual villains”, adult trans women.

the purpose of this post is to point out that neither trans men or women are privileged for the way that we’re treated. Adult trans men experience very similar treatment as adult trans women, and vice versa. Transphobes do not want you to know that. They want you to think their agenda is to protect trans men and ostracize trans women, because that makes them seem less hateful. But their actual treatment of us contradicts that.

[riv3rboychaos]

oh yeah but sure its "not a way to force non-binary people into boxes" lmao these people keep on contradicting themselves it would be funny to watch if it wasnt so annoying

[transfemme-shelterdog]

"According to this study, trans men make $0.10/hr more than trans women. This proves they're privileged"

The nefarious confounding, lurking and latent variables:

[the-importantstufd]

Unrelated to this specific topic, people heard the sentence use sources and studies for your claims and then went to dig up every misleading / low quality study to support their arguments.

Just because a study came to a result doesn’t mean it holds any truth, its important to take the size of it into account, who made it and if its unbiased, the age as well as location, how the data was collected and most importantly you need to cross reference other studies to see what conclusions they came to.

If theres only one study to support your point its in most cases not viable proof, if a lot of high quality studies came to different conclusions it shows that this topic needs further studying. Linking a study does not make your argument automatically valid

[sicklyvictorianboiii]

This reminds me of how I found a "pro-con" Britannica article on whether or not to defund the police. The cons section included information that they believed proved white officers were not responsible for the large amount of deaths of Black people caused by the police in the US

The data, at face value, would make sense to any person who wasn't too knowledgeable about the situation. "Well, percentages can't lie". But it ignores a few major points. Firstly, police officers of color make up a much smaller percent of the US police force than white officers. I find it suspicious that they don't look at the percentages of who the Black people were killed by, and instead look at the percentages of what demographic is most likely to kill. If there are 50 white officers in a precinct, and 5 Black officers, one Black officer killing a Black person would affect the percentages stated a large amount more than if one white officer killed a Black person. And as another point, it ignores how Black officers are often put into more dangerous situations, again, throwing off the data.

I think this article is a good example of ignoring the context around how data is acquired and used. Flashing statistics on screen might improve your credibility and make you *sound* smart, but unless the context of the study is clear and supports your claim, it's useless in making your point

(apologies if this seems off topic it's just a very interesting phenomenon that I don't see too many people talking about)

[yourlocalbadgerscales]

"of course i think trans men are men and face a unique type of oppression, i just don't think the term 'transandrophobia' is very fitting because it implies that men are oppressed" < said in the voice of someone who automatically thinks of white pericishetallo upper class able-bodied men whenever men are mentioned and doesn't want to confront that part of their belief system.

[hellofmychoice]

The reason some people don’t think TERFs target trans men is because, on some level, they agree with them about us.

[hellofmychoice]

I don’t say this to be inflammatory. This is something I wholeheartedly believe because I see it myself all the time. Violence and transphobic rhetoric about transgender men is so normalized that it doesn’t even register to people and often gets repeated.

One of the most obnoxious examples of this is about once a month I see post/podcast clip/hear from someone irl that they think JK Rowling is an in denial trans man. They’ll take the quotes from her about how were she born in this generation, she would’ve been trans and that “the allure of escaping womanhood would have been too much to resist” and say she obviously a trans man.

But by believing this you haven’t discovered some secret of hers. Rowling quite literally wants you to believe she would’ve been trans to lend herself credence into the trans conversation. And you are agreeing with her and the TERFs that the reason transmasculine people transition is because of internalized misogyny and peer pressure.

Why can you understand she’s a lying, manipulative demon when she speaks about trans women or trans people broadly, but take her and TERFs at their word when it comes to trans men? You are dangerously susceptible to propaganda and absolutely spineless.

[evil-enby-osoka]

i hate that nonbinary people can't be, like, nonbinary.

whatever we do, we can't win. we can't be seen as actually nonbinary. people binarize us and often mock us or get aggressive or dismiss and ignore our nonbinaryhood or something else.

if we don't medically transition, we are "just cis trenders."

if we do medically transition, we are "just [binary trans] eggs."

we are "technically transmasc or transfem anyways" if we don't use these terms.

we are lumped together with binary trans men and trans women if we do use these terms. our nonbinaryhood is ignored or seen as some kind of "gender-lite."

we are aggressively pressured to disclose if we're AFAB or AMAB, TMA or TME, transmasc or transfem, "boy nonbinary" or "girl nonbinary." and if we refuse to answer, people get double mad at us and pick something for us anyways.

if we show the slightest hint of something that could be interpreted as binary gendered, we are immediately binarised.

if we put a lot of effort into looking the most ambiguous or androgynous or neutral, people still try to find something. and they become aggressive. people often EXPLODE [PT: explode] when they can't gender someone by glance.

our ways of expression are constantly mocked and ignored (like neopronouns, nonbinary-centering labels for gender and orientation, basically all things that are associated with nonbinary people).

but if we choose more typical ways of expression (for example, use "he/him" or "she/her" pronouns), people use it to ignore and dismiss our nonbinaryhood.

we just can't win, and it's upsetting.

[nonbinary-wrath-month]

The reason why so many of y'all's feminism sucks is because you still believe deep down in your hearts that there are only two kinds of people in the world: precious, ethereal, fragile dollthings called "women", and violent, lustful, rage-fueled apes called "men". Until you throw that idea away, 3rd-grade-tier "girls rule boys drool, girls are princesses and boys are stinky :(" is as feminist as we'll ever get-- and I hope it's obvious that that's lightyears away from the bare minimum of where we need to be.

[sodomit]

Tired of being witness to this conversation.

[legionforweare-many]

not to transandrophobia post again but when TERFs say trans men are "confused little girls who need to be rescued" they are not saying we're "salvageable" or "morally better than trans women"

they're saying we're weak enough to be abused until we either detransition or die. that is not privilege

[transfemme-shelterdog]

"According to this study, trans men make $0.10/hr more than trans women. This proves they're privileged"

The nefarious confounding, lurking and latent variables:

[the-importantstufd]

Unrelated to this specific topic, people heard the sentence use sources and studies for your claims and then went to dig up every misleading / low quality study to support their arguments.

Just because a study came to a result doesn’t mean it holds any truth, its important to take the size of it into account, who made it and if its unbiased, the age as well as location, how the data was collected and most importantly you need to cross reference other studies to see what conclusions they came to.

If theres only one study to support your point its in most cases not viable proof, if a lot of high quality studies came to different conclusions it shows that this topic needs further studying. Linking a study does not make your argument automatically valid

[perverted-asexual]

I think a lot of people hear "Misandry/hating men isn't a constructive use of time and does harm to marginalised men." and hear instead "You have no reason to be wary of men, they're all victims too".

I, as a trans man, am still wary of cis men I don't know. I am still very aware that a lot of peri-cis white men have not only priviledge, but power over others, including me.

I am also aware that I don't feel safe around people who recite things like "Kill all men" or are self proclaimed misanderists. And this mindset can lead to dangerous ideals of bio-essentialism and even gender-essentialism that labels any man evil, any woman pure, and treats trans men as traitors.

And a lot of these takes lump all men in together when intersex, disabled, trans and men of colour, etc, do not inherintly carry all the same privilege as the white, able bodied, peri-cis man you all default to. In fact they are all oppressed in their own ways. (Money, education and upbringing can also play a part in this)

No one is saying that you can't or shouldn't be wary of men in general, or you can't of had bad experiences with them. But acting as if it is the default of all men does not help anyone but excuse it as something all men do and not an active choice some men make. And something our society does not correctly punish or call out.

The problem is the patriarchy, not a random disabled trans man implying that maybe he understands what oppression feels like.

Insisting on lumping in marginalised men, and the rise in hatred towards trans men lately, does not help anyone. Its not punching up. It's punching sideways.