The name is Liv, I'm here to repeat things that most of you already know, get schooled in the reblogs, and occasionally post memes. Main blog is @tinytreesap
Pang tong is such a bit character in DW but what can be done to make him more prominent I doubt the story would have a gaping hole without him because at chi bi he only does the chain link strategy which is not the real focus of DW chi bi and yi province can easily be taken over by Fa Zheng.
I’ve thought a lot about this. Honestly I probably never would have added Pang Tong in the first place (it’s a little like adding Chen Deng), but I love the personality the gave him, so I’ve considered how I’d get more mileage out of him.
At some point during Liu Biao’s time, Pang Tong was an official in Xiangyang, tasked with recommending people for office. While he was not a military adviser, it wouldn’t be too much of a stretch to use him in that capacity, having him act as a tactician for Liu Biao’s various battles against Cao Cao and the Sun, with Huang Zhong (and potentially Wen Pin or fictitiously Wei Yan) serving as muscle. You could blur the line a bit by having him be an “unofficial” tactician - no authority but he has good ideas so people listen. That’s a lot of Pang Tong content right there.
The operations leading up to Chibi/Wulin are something I call the Chubei Campaigns, which you can read about on my other blog. You can involve Pang Tong in any of these battles - taking some liberties by having Liu Biao’s forces resist Cao Cao before Biao’s death; having Pang Tong help with Liu Bei’s retreat at Chibi or aid Guan Yu in seizing the Han River fleet; having him take charge of the initial defense against Cao Cao that led to the stalemate at Chibi; aiding in the attack on Wulin following Huang Gai’s assault, or taking a major role in the fictionalized pursuit of Cao Cao at Huarong.
The collection of operations following the victory at Wulin are something I call the Jing Offensive. Pang Tong probably did play a role in these efforts (since Lu Su later praised his abilities), although exact contributions are unclear. He could take the lead tactical role in Liu Bei’s conquest of southern Jing; he could act as an adviser to the rebels in Lujiang who allied with Sun Quan; he probably did act as an adviser during the long siege at Jiangling, seemingly under Zhou Yu and Cheng Pu. Depending on when you think Guan Yu’s efforts to capture Xiangyang took place (I believe 210), Pang Tong could also be the lead adviser during that expedition.
Then, of course, you have the conquest of Yi. This gets squashed together into one stage in most DW games but it was a 3 year offensive with several major battles: at Fu, Mianzhu, Luo, and Chengdu. Pang Tong died during the siege of Luo, but you could easily make the initial wave (Fu and Mianzhu) a separate stage, ending with Pang Tong’s death at Luo; at which point Fa Zheng (and possibly Ma Su) would take over.
So as you can see, there are actually a lot of opportunities for Pang Tong to come out and play. Even if you don’t have him working under Liu Biao (although I can’t think of any reason not to) there are a number of battles between 208 and his death in 213 where he could play a leading role.
Taking into account things like the usual fiction, I’d have him help Guan Yu capture the fleet, and orchestrate the pursuit at Huarong. Then let him take the lead during the entire Jing Offensive and the first half of the Yizhou campaign. That gives him a lot of prominence but still leaves room for things like Zhuge Liang’s nonsense at Chibi and Fa Zheng leading things during the Yizhou campaign.
I’ve played DW2 where each faction only has 5 stages. Yellow Turbans, Hulao, Guandu, Changban, Chibi, Hefei, Yiling and Wuzhang. Even if some of these battles weren’t real, how big of an impact were the actual ones historically?
I hope you enjoyed the game.
All the stages have a historical basis bar Hulao which was a novel invention, some are less about key, more about iconic.
I should note “winner takes it all battles” end of era battles DW did are taking battles and overhyping them. Key or not, the idea of the winner then takes out the loser requires the other side to make a complete mess of everything else to lose the land. Dynasty Warriors cuts out decades of the era till DW7 for various reasons so turned the final battles that they chose as winner takes all.
Hope this helps, let me know if there is something you wish to know were real.
Turbans:
Unlike the others, not a battle in itself. More like wide spread camapign with major fighting in the north around Ji (Yuan Shao’s future base), Runan area and Wan.
Historically, not that important at the time but it became important later for symbolism. It was a large scale revolt which is never good, there were problems but it was put down by the end of the year though other Turban groups would turn up during the civil war that started six years later. Another revolts that year would have longer term damage to the Han but was less famous
The novel however opens with the Turbans. It might seem odd, a short lived revolt that was six years before the civil war but 1) it acts (for novel and game) as a “the Han is in trouble, here is why, here is a populist revolt” set up 2) All three future kingdoms had their representatives fight in it. It allows for foreshadowing
The novel and the game also use it for something a bit different (magic) and vs peasants so allows characters/players to get some expirence.
Hulao
The coalition against Dong Zhuo is when the control of the Han collapses and civil war begins. Centuries of peace are over and civil war is going to rock the land for a long time. The regional officials, many appointed by Dong Zhuo and most from powerful families, raise troops against the Han controller to “rescue the Emperor” (with varying sincerity depending on history or novel or person involved) and became warlords. As well as the start of the civil war, it led to rampant inflation as blockade led to desperate measures and by forcing Dong Zhuo to retreat, it allowed the warlords freedom to start fighting each each other without worrying.
Usually the novel bases the basic camapign structure on history. In this case “coalition are outmatched, get destroyed in most of their fights so go for a long blockade that suffocates Dong Zhuo’s resources”+one commander single-handily carving his way through the imperial army doesn’t quite work for a big epic opening to the civil war.
So the novel creates a two stage camapign, a able Dong Zhuo officer (first Hua Xiong then Lu Bu) vs coalition, does very well and leaves the coalition sobbing as their might only for one set of figures (different from history) to drive them back and then Dong Zhuo retreats. It sets up certain characters as mighty warriors and heroes while also creating Lu Bu as the extremely mighty warrior.
Guandu
This is the battle for the north, this is treated as show of Cao Cao’s brilliance, his set play battle that shows him at this better (one may argue he had better camapigns but this was the one the novel and the Wei historians highlight). All sorts of themes are built around this, the rising new man vs the representative of the old guard and so on based around the two leaders
The two big powers of the central plain, wasn’t winner takes it’s all but winner shifts the narrative and the momentum. Who is the biggest of them all? This is the battle both sides had been building up to for some time and threw in everything they had.
After defeat, the Yuan’s were always on the defensive though it still took awhile to destroy them. Whether this battle changed Yuan’s from the bigger to the smaller power is in some dispute, it may have confirmed what was already happening, but it certainly made Cao Cao the clear big power in the land.
Changban
Well if Liu Bei gets captured or killed, it might change a lot and then became important. Liu Bei escaping does build into the Chibi camapign but I wouldn’t call this a key battle.
A lot of well known events happen for Shu figures in this one, which is why I suspect then one got added so early, and it shows Liu Bei’s charisma to hold his faction together in circumstances like this.
Chibi
One of the key battles of the era. Cao Cao at this point was the man who had united most of the land, momentum was with him. Win and a wavering Wu (the decision to fight Cao Cao is a bigger gamble then often recognized) may well surrender but the outnumbered Wu and Shu forces make their naval stand.
Cao Cao lost and would never come so close to unification again. It brought breathing space for Liu Bei, it turned Wu into a kingdom of note, made the name of Zhou Yu and ensured their control of the Yangzi. It is a battle that has gone down in legend, even in it’s own time
Hefei
Hefei was a key defensive point, in this particular camapign Wei had their forces required elsewhere so were under pressure. Lose Hefei and Wu might be able to make inroads through Yang into Wei while having a foothold across the rivers would be a big step. Wouldn’t be fatal so maybe not key but this particular Hefei camapign was iconic
The victory and great deeds performed turned Zhang Liao into a legend while it cost Wu heavily including being a personal humiliation for Sun Quan. That had repercussions in terms of diplomacy, prestige and decisions though as Liu Bei began to become the bigger partner as he conquered lands and Sun Quan got hit by this debacle.
Yiling
This was the final camapign of a major shift in the three kingdoms but less important then the camapigns that preceded it. Key for Shu going into it due to events preceding it and even more so given scale of the defeat (Shu could take a defeat, the sheer losses of talent however was not one they could easily afford) and what it meant for Shu’s prestige, power and lands.
Rather less key for Wu but a famous camapign partly becuase it has an end of a era feel for Shu and for Wu. Probably if only doing one of the set, Yiling as the ending camapign makes the best choice
Wuzhang
If your doing one of the Zhuge Liang northern camapigns, probably go with this one as an end of era battle
It wasn’t the most important front for Wei during the camapign, that was a major Wu invasion but the novel switches it around. Historically Wei were very confident, they had the numbers, they had time and Zhuge Liang was stalled, this wasn’t a major issue. In the novel, it is the final battle between the two great strategists of the era, the two best minds with only Sima Yi able to stop Zhuge Liang so everything rides on it but Sima Yi refuses battle.
A lot of the important stuff for Shu is the aftermath of the camapign rather then what happens during it, does have an an end of an era battle symbolism to it.
History, we don’t know. He served Ding Yuan then Dong Zhuo then Lu Bu, was promoted twice by Lu Bu but the records have very little to say about his time under Lu Bu and nothing on their personal relationship, surrenders after Lu Bu’s fall. One would assume they did interact though
In the novel, Zhang Liao is shamed by Guan Yu for serving such a dishonorable master and retreats from battle (and strangely nobody comments for this dereliction of duty) then at Lu Bu’s fall, is captured then insults Lu Bu for being a coward.
Huh, Zhang Liao in the show is also buddy buddy with Guan Yu. In fact Zhang Liao was the one that talked Guan Yu into temporarily serving Cao Cao for the spell that he did
But I can believe that Zhang Liao would insult Lu Bu like that
Guan Yu and Zhang Liao were friends in both history and the novel, Guan Yu was using Zhang Liao’s sense of honor to remind him he could do so much better (and get Zhang Liao to retreat) in that novel scene.
History, we don’t know. He served Ding Yuan then Dong Zhuo then Lu Bu, was promoted twice by Lu Bu but the records have very little to say about his time under Lu Bu and nothing on their personal relationship, surrenders after Lu Bu’s fall. One would assume they did interact though
In the novel, Zhang Liao is shamed by Guan Yu for serving such a dishonorable master and retreats from battle (and strangely nobody comments for this dereliction of duty) then at Lu Bu’s fall, is captured then insults Lu Bu for being a coward.
Huh, Zhang Liao in the show is also buddy buddy with Guan Yu. In fact Zhang Liao was the one that talked Guan Yu into temporarily serving Cao Cao for the spell that he did
But I can believe that Zhang Liao would insult Lu Bu like that
Guan Yu and Zhang Liao were friends in both history and the novel, Guan Yu was using Zhang Liao’s sense of honor to remind him he could do so much better (and get Zhang Liao to retreat) in that novel scene.
History, we don’t know. He served Ding Yuan then Dong Zhuo then Lu Bu, was promoted twice by Lu Bu but the records have very little to say about his time under Lu Bu and nothing on their personal relationship, surrenders after Lu Bu’s fall. One would assume they did interact though
In the novel, Zhang Liao is shamed by Guan Yu for serving such a dishonorable master and retreats from battle (and strangely nobody comments for this dereliction of duty) then at Lu Bu’s fall, is captured then insults Lu Bu for being a coward.
Huh, Zhang Liao in the show is also buddy buddy with Guan Yu. In fact Zhang Liao was the one that talked Guan Yu into temporarily serving Cao Cao for the spell that he did
But I can believe that Zhang Liao would insult Lu Bu like that
My brother of course immediately hopped on that and started making Ling Tong teleport everywhere (Ling Tong the time traveler) and was playing what few battles were unlocked so far
I’m gonna start story mode probably tomorrow, but I’m not sure which of the three kingdoms to start with (I’m saving Jin for last)
My brother of course immediately hopped on that and started making Ling Tong teleport everywhere (Ling Tong the time traveler) and was playing what few battles were unlocked so far
I’m gonna start story mode probably tomorrow, but I’m not sure which of the three kingdoms to start with (I’m saving Jin for last)
So I was thinking a bit about Pang Tong (don't ask about why my brain picks on characters at random, it just does)
I remember that the DW games don't actually tell you much about him, other than that he's an old friend of Zhuge Liang's that covers up his face (apparently because he's ugly as hell) that has the title of "Fledgling Phoenix" that kind of just shows up randomly (around the time of the western campaign I think) just to die not that long after
Watching ROTK 2010 made his novel character make so much sense. Liu Bei had known about "Fledgling Phoenix" for awhile bc of Water Mirror, but when Pang Tong appeared before them he was dismissed purely for his looks and was given a low level administration job, which he didn't do out of spite
When someone was sent after him because nothing was getting done, he managed to complete months of work in a day and Liu Bei got smacked in the face with his prejudices (as anyone should that judges someone for something like that)
When it came time for the Riverlands campaign, Liu Bei lamented having no justification to attack Liu Zhang because he'd previously been generous, plus they were apart of the same clan
I don't remember the name of the one guy that continually advocated for Liu Bei against the rest of his colleagues (though because he wanted to betray Liu Zhang), but Pang Tong promised to create a justification for Liu Bei's war, so he sold out the traitor and also got himself killed on purpose at Fallen Phoenix Hill, which he remarked was a fitting name, and basically planned for Liu Bei to use him and the already sewn discord to go on with his Riverlands conquest
In DW none of the above is mentioned and Pang Tong's death is primarily portrayed as an accident and he was simply surprise ambushed and that it's just another one of those things that happens during war
Of course things have to be simplified for the games, but I feel like more depth could've been given to his DW character than just some weird mystery dude that dies an unfortunate death
Though I could be wrong about all this, I haven't touched a DW game in some time, not even mentioning his historical version
But it was just something I was thinking about since I never really knew anything about who Pang Tong was before I watched the show outside of being the Fledgling Phoenix and dying during the battle of Chengdu (or the Riverlands campaign if we're talking about the show)
I think the RTK show’s choice of how to portray his death feels a bit “we can’t have it be an accident, we don’t like the novel’s one (jealousy) so going to give it meaning” to make it more tragic and perhaps an easier to understand justification. Not entirely sure that was necessary as a choice
I think DW problem with Pang Tong is he tended to be a two stager. Chibi, his death battle (maybe 3 if Yi camapign was split), not a lot of time to build him up. A lot of what makes Pang Tong... well Pang Tong is off battle or quite poltical. Usually they managed goodly chap, more cynical and certainly more funny then most of Shu with a somewhat relaxed attitude. It generally worked in making him a likeable contrasting figure but it isn’t much for depth
In terms of Pang Tong’s death options DW had
In history, he is overseeing a siege against Liu Xun (son of Liu Zhang, would hold out for considerable time) at Loucheng and gets by an arrow, dies. Sometimes fates just go like that, Pang Tong gets hit by a stray arrow and dies, Cao Cao gets away with wandering into Shen Pei’s sniping trap at Ye as the shot missed.
In novel, Pang Tong grows jealous of Zhuge Liang and worried credit may go from him if they delay, ignores warnings and about a thousand omens. They advance towards Luocheng and when Liu Bei’s horse, foreseeing ambush ahead, throws a wobbly Pang Tong swaps horses with Liu Bei. Wandering into a bad omen place that might as well be called “Pang Tong is going to die here. Yes I mean you Pang Tong”, Pang Tong is ambushed and shot by Zhang Ren (who novel makes star general of Liu Zhang’s forces) who thinks (due to horse) he is Liu Bei.
I remember now about the bit with the horse. A lot of the details tend to slip my mind due to time passage, whoops
I agree that DW didn't have much to work with, since he's not around for very long in the first place. Though I guess they once again got something correct with making Pang Tong's death just an unfortunate thing that occurred than something that was seemingly done on purpose and Pang Tong being a sacrificial lamb (though I doubt he was actually trying to suicide, the stars just happened to align and boom, Liu Bei now has what he needs to conquer Yi with a good conscience)
Though in the show I don't really recall Pang Tong and Zhuge Liang interacting much, if at all. In DW they were all buddy buddy or at the very least got along. The two are also mentioned with the other, at least in regards to their titles (you often hear the Sleeping Dragon and Fledgling Phoenix in the same sentence).
It's interesting seeing so many different iterations of the same circumstance, though that often makes it difficult to figure out what actually occurred
So I was thinking a bit about Pang Tong (don't ask about why my brain picks on characters at random, it just does)
I remember that the DW games don't actually tell you much about him, other than that he's an old friend of Zhuge Liang's that covers up his face (apparently because he's ugly as hell) that has the title of "Fledgling Phoenix" that kind of just shows up randomly (around the time of the western campaign I think) just to die not that long after
Watching ROTK 2010 made his novel character make so much sense. Liu Bei had known about "Fledgling Phoenix" for awhile bc of Water Mirror, but when Pang Tong appeared before them he was dismissed purely for his looks and was given a low level administration job, which he didn't do out of spite
When someone was sent after him because nothing was getting done, he managed to complete months of work in a day and Liu Bei got smacked in the face with his prejudices (as anyone should that judges someone for something like that)
When it came time for the Riverlands campaign, Liu Bei lamented having no justification to attack Liu Zhang because he'd previously been generous, plus they were apart of the same clan
I don't remember the name of the one guy that continually advocated for Liu Bei against the rest of his colleagues (though because he wanted to betray Liu Zhang), but Pang Tong promised to create a justification for Liu Bei's war, so he sold out the traitor and also got himself killed on purpose at Fallen Phoenix Hill, which he remarked was a fitting name, and basically planned for Liu Bei to use him and the already sewn discord to go on with his Riverlands conquest
In DW none of the above is mentioned and Pang Tong's death is primarily portrayed as an accident and he was simply surprise ambushed and that it's just another one of those things that happens during war
Of course things have to be simplified for the games, but I feel like more depth could've been given to his DW character than just some weird mystery dude that dies an unfortunate death
Though I could be wrong about all this, I haven't touched a DW game in some time, not even mentioning his historical version
But it was just something I was thinking about since I never really knew anything about who Pang Tong was before I watched the show outside of being the Fledgling Phoenix and dying during the battle of Chengdu (or the Riverlands campaign if we're talking about the show)
You know, I went through the trouble of doodling a personified (?) version of the current default profile picture, only to realize that it looked like a damn atrocity and honestly corny as hell
So I guess I’m keeping the default one, even though I’m tired of looking at it
I know y’all are probably tired of the unrelated posts, but I just have to say that the ROTK community here on Tumblr is one of the best I’ve seen
To be honest I’ve probably been way too candid on this blog, but y’all are just some of the NICEST people I’ve ever met. You were all so welcoming even though I created this blog on impulse and doubted myself more than once, and I just want to say thank you to everyone here and that I love you all /p
Okay THIS should be the last post of this caliber, no more sappy shit from me, from now on I hope to just continue my ROTK posts and probably butchering more historical things, but I just wanted to say that I appreciate every one of you and thank you all for being so kind and putting up with me :’D
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