jesus fucking christ
[First Image ID: A screenshot with a water filter over it of someone else's text post. The text post reads "I keep seeing this around, especially now around Yom HaShoah, and it's starting to piss me off, "Never again means never again for anyone." NO THE FUCK IT DOES NOT." /.End ID]
[Second Image ID: A screenshot of someone's reply made in the tags. It reads "There's actually a whole (academic) article about this. How in Israel the phrase is generally understood to mean 'never again the victims' whereas in diaspora it's understood to mean 'never again for anyone' and how the phrase was PROBABLY coined by anarchist communists who specifically meant like 'dismantle the systems (like nationalism) that led to this in the first place'. IDK if this person is Israeli but it's usually Israelis you see responding like this and it's because they straight up have no idea the rest of the world doesn't see it like that. Combined w the at this point pretty infamous disdain for Holocaust victims and survivors for being 'weak'. It doesn't mean 'in your honour we will never let this happen again to anyone else' it literally means we will never again be like YOU who failed to protect yourself. Edit ppl sharing these tags feel free to do so without attribution. I'm not really keen to engage with teh people who will be angry abotu this. /.End ID]
@jewishvitya if you do not want to get involved feel free to ignore this @ but I wanted to confirm with you that this is an interpretation held by Israelis. Personally I've only heard "never again" as a blanket statement for "never again letting genocide happen to anyone."
Yeah, that's true, in Israel "never again" means we'll never allow ourselves to be victims again. That's how I understood it for us growing up.
We're aware of the different interpretation worldwide. But we don't trust other nations to protect us from another genocide, so I saw it more as an expression of guilt than a promise I can rely on. There's a level of... scoffing at this other interpretation and seeing it as a bastardized version of the promise we made to ourselves. "You don't mean it, you don't actually care, you just want to feel better about yourselves."
And this might be something to keep in mind. We don't trust gentiles. So any demand from Israel to stop oppressing Palestinians is taken as... you felt bad for us as long as we were victims, you like us when you can tell romanticized holocaust stories about how all we did was be murdered, but once we can protect ourselves, you hate us again. "They're so antisemitic they can't stand seeing a Jew being strong, they want us to roll over and be murdered." So many Israelis aren't even trying for... good PR. Because they believe that the only way to look good to a world that hates us is to die.
When other countries stand against Israel, the response is that we always knew we were alone and universally hated. So that's another reason to be patriotic and defend the existence of this country. Because no one else will protect us. That's why you see Israelis doubling down rather than seeing how wrong we are.
The disdain towards holocaust victims doesn't show anymore when we talk about this, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's part of the history of the meaning. Holocaust victims were seen as weak in early Zionism. To the point that survivors were mistreated.
If you see grains of truth in any of this, it's because these attitudes make use of very real antisemitism to lead us to these conclusions. Other countries are not doing enough to protect Jews and combat antisemitism. So it's easy to look at that and say "see? We can never trust them."
(Disclaimer in case this reaches someone who doesn't know me. I'm anti-Zionist, I'm explaining a mentality I don't agree with. I'm not making these arguments as if they're correct, I'm laying them out to show them.)
Yeah, while not Israeli, I was very much raised in a zionist mindset, which heavily involved the idea that someday we would NEED to run to Israel. And I was pretty heavily raised with all of these ideas, with a complete fear and suspicion to any gentiles to the point where I knew I wasn't supposed to trust a single gentile opinion on anything Jewish, because they were obviously just using it to control us into assimilation, or drive us out, survival optional.
I only recognized how dangerous that was from other Jews, and even then only because I was constantly uncomfortable with listening to the concept of a "self hating Jew" as the only explanation for why they disagree with Zionism. I need a reason, even when my entire being disagrees with someone, I need to understand why.
Without that mentality, the real oppression in the background of zionist thinking, makes it so easy to just spiral out into monstrosity. People really do hate us, and really do condemn legitimate self defense. So if there isn't the self awareness that fascism isn't a unique ideology of "bad people", that anyone can be prone to being swayed by fascist thinking even if they've been victims of it, the legitimate terror and still-present discrimination makes a fantastic barrier to lock yourself in an echo chamber where you dismiss those who say you're hurting them as not one of you, and thus lying.
This last paragraph is great, thank you for that.
Important (no alt text bc phone, feel free to add) removed the posters name but they're welcome to respond ofc.
So many Zionists think the only other option to what they're doing now is death. In 1967, a war which Israel won and knew it would win, Israelis were preparing large fields for Israeli burials bc they thought they would be killed en masse. Sorry for linking TOI here but this quote os relevant and it's hard to find for free online from a better source. Quote partway down the page "During the Six-Day War, Israelis prepared for their demise, following the ways of our perpetrators from World War II, digging mass graves just in case of catastrophe as well as producing atomic weapons."
In reality, Israel was not at risk and Israel in fact used this war as a reason to expand further settlements and commit the Naksa, the expulsion of a further 300,000 Palestinians. Egypt had no means of destroying Israel in 1967 just as Palestine has no means of doing that now. But that's not what Zionists teach their children. They hear Israel was almost destroyed in 1967, and that Israel did what was necessary to "defend itself."
If you're brought up in constant fear of annihilation (no matter how unfounded), both of yourself and your community (worldwide Jewry etc.) It's easy to fall into fascism. And if you're taught that anyone who disagrees with you wants you dead (whether they're part of your in-group or not), you won't be reasoned with.
Bringing this back because I've seen a lot of well-meaning posts genuinely asking
"Why do Zionists team up with antisemitic right-wingers? Don't they know that Zionists mistreated Holocaust survivors and are currently doing a genocide?"
"Have Zionists seen the genocidal screeds that Herzl and Jabotinsky wrote? How can they possibly support such a morally bankrupt ideology?"
"Don't they know that Eric Adams teams up with Christian antisemites and John Hagee only cares about Israel because he thinks it will make Jesus come back?"
And the answer is that nothing compares to the fear of annihilation. If someone has been so strongly indoctrinated to the point that they think that Zohran Mamdani and students at Columbia want another Holocaust, no amount of posting Jabotinsky's writings or hand-wringing about Christian Zionists will convince them otherwise. Some liberal Zionists genuinely hate what Jabotinsky wrote, but just as many are well-aware and don't care. Jabontinsky's racism was a small price to pay for what Zionists see as the only way to ensure Jewish survival.
The right-wingers like John Hagee support Israel, and if someone believes that Israel is the only key to Jewish survival, they don't care that he's an antisemite. Hagee thinks the Jews killed Jesus and thinks all Jews will be killed when Jesus returns? So what, let the goyim believe whatever they want, we need to guarantee that Jews will survive another generation. (Dangerously close to the 14 words, I know.)
Viktor Orban supports Israel, so he supports Jewish survival. He dislikes Jews? The fact that he's an antisemite doesn't matter, because for Zionists, Israel is the ultimate solution to antisemitism. Hold your nose and support him, because unlike those paying false lip service about racial and religious equality, Orban will ensure Jewish survival. Even if it's for his own ends, even if he wants to kill all the Jews in his own country. Those Jews can flee to Israel. Nothing else matters.
Zohran Mamdani supports all religious minorities in NYC including Jews, but to someone who's been brainwashed to think another Holocaust is around the corner and all Jews will need to flee to occupied Palestine, that doesn't matter. Either Mamdani knows and supports Palestine because he wants another Holocaust, or he's so deluded that he thinks he's helping the Jews but is going to get them all killed anyway.
The past 100 years have proven that setting up a Jewish ethnostate only makes Jews everywhere less safe, but fear of the idea of certain death drowns out common sense. It drowns out the millions of pictures of dead children. It drowns out the fact that Israel is doing another Holocaust in view of the entire world.
The Jewish students crying "they want to kill us" when their classmates wear keffiyehs and stage peaceful protests are being 100% honest to their understanding of reality. (Watch Israelism for free here.)
Yes it's racist. Yes it's evil. Yes it's genocidal. No you don't have to sympathize with it one iota. But if you're genuinely wondering how it's possible and why Zionists online are bending over backward to justify their incoherent ideology, this is why.
#FUCKKKKKKKK
#How are we supposed to combat that?
#Still needs to be shared because like. I didn't see it this way until I read the above post
#But FUCKING HELL. We can't convince them they're wrong because THEY'RE NOT. So what CAN we do to stop them wiping out the Palestinians?
#PROVE THEIR FEARS ARE JUSTIFIED?
#I don't want that to be our ownly damn option!
I have a few thoughts on this and others please weigh in as my perspective is limited to my own life experience. I assume your tags refer to Jewish Zionists, so that is how I will approach it. None of these are guaranteed to work, but everything I link is free and most are from Zionist sources.
I know several Zionists whose worldviews were shaken by learning about how Jerusalem's Morrocan quarter was destroyed to make room for the plaza in front of the Western Wall. Getting Zionists to realize that Zionist-led expulsions did in fact happen, and happen in the name of Judaism, is key. Many have internalized the lie that the Nakba was voluntary, but this smaller expulsion and the fact that they were lied to about it is harder for their brains to fight. Israel is willing to lie to them, what else is it lying about? Link.
Zionist antisemitism, see how Herzl actually spoke of Jews. "The Yid, on the other hand, is a hideous distortion of the human character, something unspeakably low and repulsive...The Yid is the curse of the Jews." See also his diaries, I know multiple people who have become anti-Zionist after actually reading Herzl.
Herzl's very explicitly colonialist writings (for those who would deny it.) "We shall try to spirit the penniless population across the border by procuring employment for it in the transit countries, while denying it any employment in our own country."
Jabotinsky's genocidal writings (helpful for ppl who haven't rationalized it already) In his own words from his own institute: "Every native population, civilised or not, regards its lands as its national home, of which it is the sole master, and it wants to retain that mastery always; it will refuse to admit not only new masters but, even new partners or collaborators."
Demonstrate that Zionism/Zionism unchecked makes Jews less safe, especially in occupied Palestine. Example: Peter Beinart/other liberal zionists who are willing to admit that October 7 happened as a consequence of ongoing oppression of Palestinians. Extra helpful if they are willing to admit that one of October 7's main goals was to free Palestinians held in Israeli prisons (many without charge or trial.) That shows both that October 7 was not some senseless unplanned act and that it could have been avoided had Israel actually been a state with equality for all.
This op-ed detailing how the post-67 occupation fuels antisemitism.
I know Shaul Magid has written a decent amount about this also but I'm not super familiar.
Risky, but: show that Israel's violence against Palestinians has made worldwide Jewry less safe since the early 20th century. Zionists like to use the example of the Farhud where Jews were driven from Iraq in 1950 as an example of "Jews aren't safe anywhere" but neglect to mention that Jews lived very safety in Iraq for millennia before. The fact is that Israel played a role and actually encouraged Iraq's expulsions. Source, also read Avi Shlaim's Three Worlds. Not a justification of course, but a demonstration of Israel not making Jews safe.
Demonstrate that Islamic countries have not, in fact, expelled all their Jews. Iran is a good example because Zionists see the regime as basically al-Qaeda and this can make them think. Many many Zionist Jews falsely believe there are no Jews left in Iran. Alex Shams has written some intro-level stuff but determine for yourself if it's too rad for the ppl you're dealing with.
Also risky, but show that the ADL's count of "hate crimes" is overinflated by several orders of magnitude. They currently count basically all criticism of Israel as an "antisemitic hate crime." This also makes people take legitimate accusations of antisemitism less seriously, thus making Jews less safe.
Jews in general including Israelis feel that Israel is not actually a safe haven anymore. Even Zionist papers like the Times of Israel and the Forward admit this.
Palestinians with Israeli citizenship ("Arab Israelis") aren't defended by the Iron Dome and don't have bomb shelters (so Israel isn't safe/not equal treatment) Listed these ones bc liberal Zionists like to claim Bedouin communities as "Arab Israelis that Israel treats equally"
ID system graphic showing inequality of access
Mistreatment of Holocaust survivors in a state that supposedly needed founding specifically for them and their descendants.
Separating Yemini Jewish children from their mothers despite claiming to be a refuge for Jews who were expelled from their countries. Most liberal Zionists think that the "60's Scoop" of indigenous children was wrong. So this is wrong also.
Forced sterilization of Ethiopian Jewish women for the same reason, another instance of serious racism--these Ethiopian women were not "safe" in Israel.
Please add anything you think others might find helpful.
