WARS AMONG THE STARS

Rated M for Mature. We're going back, back to the galaxy a long time ago, and extremely far away.

[wolveria]

SO I was obsessing over clones (like ya do) and I noticed Hardcase was being extra sensitive? Like, Fives doesn’t smack him that hard, but it looks like it hurts

even when Jesse goes to pat him, he flinches in anticipation of the touch

then I remembered this from earlier

BOY GO GET YOURSELF SOME MEDICAL CARE so you won’t go with Fives and die horribly *sobs*

[wolveria]

You are so very welcome

[star-wars-comics]

Hyperspace Stories: The Bad Batch: Rogue Agents #3 - "Rematch" (2026)

written by Michael Moreci art by Reese Hannigan, Elisabetta D'Amico, & Michael Atiyeh

[warsamongthestars]

Well now I've got more context...

There is, in fact, something hilarious about Crosshair being able to mimic Tech and nobody questioning it.

( Still need even more context than this, but well, at least I have a name, an author and artists )

[moosethren]

The Monastery

Banner art: qwiqwiaqwi

New chapter in Look to the horizon and fly! Mind you, this is a canon divergent version of TBB.

masterlist post (fanfic summary, info etc)

AO3 link

Small tidbit below:

"Teth of all places… I still can't believe it," Wrecker exclaimed in disbelief, as the Marauder flew over the jungles of Teth. "Haven't the Republic been here before?"

"Several times, all involving Jedi," Tech happily confirmed, as he prepared the ship for landing outside the old stone building he had brought them to. It had been built into a massive pillar of rock, making it difficult to reach it, unless you could fly or had climbing tools.

Ash peered out the windshield, noting how high up they were. "What is this place?"

"This is one of many monasteries that the B'omarr Order built," Tech continued.

"Right, and they are?"

"Try and not crash the ship while you explain, Tech," Hunter smirked, as he retreated further back in the ship along with Echo and Wrecker. Tech had glared at him at his comment but his need to answer Ash's question took precedence.

"The B'omarr believed that to reach true enlightenment, they needed to isolate themselves from the physical world," Tech continued towards Ash. "No personal comforts, no emotions. Only the mind mattered. And once they did reach enlightenment, their brains were separated from their bodies and put into jars, to be cared for and revered by the other monks."

Ash made a face. "To do what exactly? Stare into a wall?"

"Well… no. They had no eyes after all. With no distractions from the physical world, they could focus on pondering the universe itself." He set the ship down, before standing up from his seat. "They were a rather elusive order. These days their buildings are used by smugglers, or the occasional Jedi dispute. Though I fear we will not see anything of the latter again."

He held out his hand towards her, before he could think twice, helping her up on her feet as she pondered the information she'd been given.

"I'd like to see a cardul join that Order," she admitted, before shaking her head amusedly.

[warsamongthestars]

Oh my gods, its ECHO BASE.

Also, simply because this is what I though when I read it...

BEHOLD

THE B'OMARR ORDER!

[moosethren]

I've truthfully not looked too closely at everything in SW legends but man I should have sooner. A lot of the ideas are better than current stuff. That the kaminoans made anti empire troopers and that the whole thing with them and the clones ended very differently.

Like there's so much to possible use in legends but it'd be SO much work parsing out and using that instead... so I'll stick with my simple tbb re-write as is fhghdfh

Technically, I guess I make everything different for my SW timeline after the OG movies anyway by removing that new trilogy whose names shan't be named. That's difficult as is. xD

[warsamongthestars]

I know, the "Legends" are chalked filled with stuff :D

A lot of people have loved Star Wars enough to create for it over the years.

I'd say, pick-n-choose what you want, because Star Wars is like a big wibbly wobbly ball of artsy-fartsy stuff. Anything works.

Me personally, I like mixing OG with KOTOR and Clone Wars, nitpicking the Prequels, and only using enough of Disney era to mock it.

I personally don't do the term "legends", nor the arguments against it. Its just Star Wars at the end of the day. "But its all a mixed bag!" -- ... So like every franchise ever of all time? At least I can pick and choose what I like, instead of settling with the sardine-licorice disney hands out. "But its not canon!" -- I think the disparity between every Star Wars mediums, including the 2 Trilogies + 1 Disaster shows that absolutely nothing but the OG is true canon--and even that can be argued; so the real name of the game is pick-n-choose. Lucas couldn't do entertaining consistancy if it shot his exhaust port and blew up his giga pokeball.

[moosethren]

Everything and nothing should be canon to Star Wars now. I like the idea of just... picking what I like (even if it's more work when it comes to timelines) Though one says legends etc I guess to like.. make a difference between the two things. So other's understand it.

Plus there's so much more book material from the legends stuff, I assume. Plus the old games. And then mix it with some good stuff from newer stuff.

Like now I'm even contemplating if Tipoca City needs to be destroyed at all. (cause it doesn't happen in my 'S1' anyway) AND ITS JUST...

all the possibilities

Using KOTOR stuff must be interesting though, considering the time in between that and the OG?

[warsamongthestars]

4000 years. Heck, 4000 years ago for us was the Late Bronze Age. Egypt and Babylon were still a thing. There were only 1 million humans on earth at the time... So the same population as the current state of Delaware.

So basically having KOTOR is a bit like adding Ancient Egypt to Star Wars. If Folks talked about Revan, it'd be in the same way we talk about King Tut or Imhotep. So only know a name, that they're ancient, and whatever holomovie of the last decade made--Prolly Horror. Folks with any indepth knowledge would talk about Revan like mythology; Revan would probably be a written character in fantasy novels with all sorts of characterizations.

Knowledge of them would be pop culture nonsense or whatever article the Intergalactic Geographic would be running at the time.

and it wouldn't even be just Revan either, there'd also be Nomi Sunrider to consider.

If you asked the Jedi Order about Revan, they'd prolly say "A Revan did exist, yes", and move on with their day--because there'd be so many interpretations of Revan (And lots of arguing fans of name your novel / book / game of the year), they couldn't possibly keep up or have patience for.

As for Tipoca City...

The Prequels introduced a lot of cool concepts that... have no explanation as to what happened or why they disappeared by OG; given that the Prequels were made long after the OG.

I find that its rather lazy to just say "Oh it got all destroyed and we don't have it no more".

I personally would say... Yeah there's no reason to mass produce Clone Troopers--but there's also no reason for the Empire not to still have Cloned Soldiers.

They'd simple be specialized and highly trained instead. Y'know, made from birth to be a certain thing, that sort of deal. Like Super Special Forces. Only deployed in specific circumstances.

Perhaps Assassins; perhaps Mech Drivers built into Giant Robots; perhaps super brains that keep track of an entire galaxy's worth of routes and networks and plan hyper space jumps coordinantes... Possibliites are endless.

Tipoca City, or the various cities across Kamino, could be converted into Imperial Resources. Perhaps as a mass Medical and Science Planet.

Vat your soldiers in Bacta, regrow limbs and organs using flash cloning, get enhancements and join the special forces; have something horrible happen and it results in mutants and zombies and the Force knows what... Its Space Fantasy, anything can go down.

Honestly simply destroy it and killing all the scientists robs story potential and harms the world-build.

[moosethren]

Reven being referred to as an ancient legend like that would be rather wicked, actually. Because the way SW is written, it's like people forget in no time at all. That by the OG, the jedi are just these myths while there has to be SO many people around that still remember the Clone Wars etc (but that's the con of the OGs being first and then a bunch of prequel stuff built onto them afterwards I guess)

I wish we knew more about stuff like... even movies in the SW universe but current stuff barely shows any of that, I reckon legends might. It's easy to forget people live just regular lives.

And exactly! Destroying the city seems such a waste! Especially when there's so much one can do with it. Some of my ideas would work a lot better with an intact Tipoca city so honestly, it might just stick around. Especially since I'm assuming it was destroyed because of the nostalgic kick it'd give (and it did work on me the first time).

[warsamongthestars]

Well now I'm thinking about in-universe Coruscant Movie Fly-in Movie Theaters, where you land your flying car on a platform and watch a movie projection from a camera droid.

Just to watch "Return of the Entombed" all about an Undead Sith, prolly Revan again, chasing people.

After all, you can't have ordinary movie theaters, it'd be immersion breaking, there has to be something weird about all of them. And since Star Wars was very much made in the 70s with 60s technology as its basis, then the only thing for it is to use 50s-60s technology as the theme / aesthetic for any ordinary unplot tech.

Its these little things that make the universe a lot more alive in the mind of the audience. "They go to Movie Theaters too!? I GO TO MOVIE THEATERS!!" that sort of thing.

But anyway, yeah. I'd say... Only keep consistency of theme, but not consistency of plot.

Like, we look at Tipoca City and we go "That's the planet with the Clone Troopers!", consistency of plot would mean its always the planet with clone troopers.

Consistency of theme would be, "That's the sciencey planet where they can make people and people things", and with that, you can have Kamino be anything. From mad science planet to medical planet to science-disaster planet to mutant-science planet... You name it.

[moosethren]

I've truthfully not looked too closely at everything in SW legends but man I should have sooner. A lot of the ideas are better than current stuff. That the kaminoans made anti empire troopers and that the whole thing with them and the clones ended very differently.

Like there's so much to possible use in legends but it'd be SO much work parsing out and using that instead... so I'll stick with my simple tbb re-write as is fhghdfh

Technically, I guess I make everything different for my SW timeline after the OG movies anyway by removing that new trilogy whose names shan't be named. That's difficult as is. xD

[warsamongthestars]

I know, the "Legends" are chalked filled with stuff :D

A lot of people have loved Star Wars enough to create for it over the years.

I'd say, pick-n-choose what you want, because Star Wars is like a big wibbly wobbly ball of artsy-fartsy stuff. Anything works.

Me personally, I like mixing OG with KOTOR and Clone Wars, nitpicking the Prequels, and only using enough of Disney era to mock it.

I personally don't do the term "legends", nor the arguments against it. Its just Star Wars at the end of the day. "But its all a mixed bag!" -- ... So like every franchise ever of all time? At least I can pick and choose what I like, instead of settling with the sardine-licorice disney hands out. "But its not canon!" -- I think the disparity between every Star Wars mediums, including the 2 Trilogies + 1 Disaster shows that absolutely nothing but the OG is true canon--and even that can be argued; so the real name of the game is pick-n-choose. Lucas couldn't do entertaining consistancy if it shot his exhaust port and blew up his giga pokeball.

[moosethren]

Everything and nothing should be canon to Star Wars now. I like the idea of just... picking what I like (even if it's more work when it comes to timelines) Though one says legends etc I guess to like.. make a difference between the two things. So other's understand it.

Plus there's so much more book material from the legends stuff, I assume. Plus the old games. And then mix it with some good stuff from newer stuff.

Like now I'm even contemplating if Tipoca City needs to be destroyed at all. (cause it doesn't happen in my 'S1' anyway) AND ITS JUST...

all the possibilities

Using KOTOR stuff must be interesting though, considering the time in between that and the OG?

[warsamongthestars]

4000 years. Heck, 4000 years ago for us was the Late Bronze Age. Egypt and Babylon were still a thing. There were only 1 million humans on earth at the time... So the same population as the current state of Delaware.

So basically having KOTOR is a bit like adding Ancient Egypt to Star Wars. If Folks talked about Revan, it'd be in the same way we talk about King Tut or Imhotep. So only know a name, that they're ancient, and whatever holomovie of the last decade made--Prolly Horror. Folks with any indepth knowledge would talk about Revan like mythology; Revan would probably be a written character in fantasy novels with all sorts of characterizations.

Knowledge of them would be pop culture nonsense or whatever article the Intergalactic Geographic would be running at the time.

and it wouldn't even be just Revan either, there'd also be Nomi Sunrider to consider.

If you asked the Jedi Order about Revan, they'd prolly say "A Revan did exist, yes", and move on with their day--because there'd be so many interpretations of Revan (And lots of arguing fans of name your novel / book / game of the year), they couldn't possibly keep up or have patience for.

As for Tipoca City...

The Prequels introduced a lot of cool concepts that... have no explanation as to what happened or why they disappeared by OG; given that the Prequels were made long after the OG.

I find that its rather lazy to just say "Oh it got all destroyed and we don't have it no more".

I personally would say... Yeah there's no reason to mass produce Clone Troopers--but there's also no reason for the Empire not to still have Cloned Soldiers.

They'd simple be specialized and highly trained instead. Y'know, made from birth to be a certain thing, that sort of deal. Like Super Special Forces. Only deployed in specific circumstances.

Perhaps Assassins; perhaps Mech Drivers built into Giant Robots; perhaps super brains that keep track of an entire galaxy's worth of routes and networks and plan hyper space jumps coordinantes... Possibliites are endless.

Tipoca City, or the various cities across Kamino, could be converted into Imperial Resources. Perhaps as a mass Medical and Science Planet.

Vat your soldiers in Bacta, regrow limbs and organs using flash cloning, get enhancements and join the special forces; have something horrible happen and it results in mutants and zombies and the Force knows what... Its Space Fantasy, anything can go down.

Honestly simply destroy it and killing all the scientists robs story potential and harms the world-build.

[moosethren]

I've truthfully not looked too closely at everything in SW legends but man I should have sooner. A lot of the ideas are better than current stuff. That the kaminoans made anti empire troopers and that the whole thing with them and the clones ended very differently.

Like there's so much to possible use in legends but it'd be SO much work parsing out and using that instead... so I'll stick with my simple tbb re-write as is fhghdfh

Technically, I guess I make everything different for my SW timeline after the OG movies anyway by removing that new trilogy whose names shan't be named. That's difficult as is. xD

[warsamongthestars]

I know, the "Legends" are chalked filled with stuff :D

A lot of people have loved Star Wars enough to create for it over the years.

I'd say, pick-n-choose what you want, because Star Wars is like a big wibbly wobbly ball of artsy-fartsy stuff. Anything works.

Me personally, I like mixing OG with KOTOR and Clone Wars, nitpicking the Prequels, and only using enough of Disney era to mock it.

I personally don't do the term "legends", nor the arguments against it. Its just Star Wars at the end of the day. "But its all a mixed bag!" -- ... So like every franchise ever of all time? At least I can pick and choose what I like, instead of settling with the sardine-licorice disney hands out. "But its not canon!" -- I think the disparity between every Star Wars mediums, including the 2 Trilogies + 1 Disaster shows that absolutely nothing but the OG is true canon--and even that can be argued; so the real name of the game is pick-n-choose. Lucas couldn't do entertaining consistancy if it shot his exhaust port and blew up his giga pokeball.

[passionesolja]

One of the things that SWTOR really does a good job of without meaning to is showing how fucking stupid Bane's Order is.

Yeah, it works when yall wanna be a weird daddy issue abuse cult. But as soon as galactic civilizations come into play, you need to have a Reconstituted Sith Order era structure.

The RSE Sith Order is a serious institution, unlike whatever tf Sidious got going on in the Galactic Empire.

Like Darth Vader wouldve been an incredible Emperor's Wrath. It wouldve made him and Palpatine's dynamic less toxic and abusive if Vader was allowed to be in a role that worked for him.

But befause the Rule of Two has zero nuance and was created to only destroy the Jedi and not run an Empire. You have poor Anakin having to juggle Emperor's Wrath, Sith Apprentice, manage a bunch of Sith Assassins (Inquisitors), and whatever bullshit Sidious needs done.

How the fuck was he supposed to even learn how to take Sidious' place when Vader has zero time to do any learning?

And like Vader realistically cant, so Sidious starts hating his ass and Vader starts getting disillusioned and is miserable. Whole time, this is Sidious' fault.

But Sidious for as shady as he is, is a weak as fuck Sith. It's easy to be the strongest mf in a two person game. His ass dont want to share power or have to protect his spot in any way, and that ends up being his demise. Like I love him to death, but he couldn't have survived the RSE Sith Order.

Mf probably wouldve quit during the Recruit phase when a Sith Master electrocuted tf out him for whatever reason.

Literally, he wouldn't even have to replace Vader, he just needs to be a competent leader and put Vader in the role that he'd work best in.

If Sidious had just used the mfs he already had around him and established a Dark Council, the Rebels wouldnt have won. Like Maul wouldve been a fantastic Dark Councilor of the Sphere of Imperial Intelligence. He already has underworld connections and insight.

Like if some random Sith Lord from the Reconstituted Sith Empire saw Sidious discard Maul, they'd be floored bc why would you reject somebody who can get shit done and has gotten shit done? Maul would have

Literally everybody from Dooku to Ventress who Sidious decides to backstab bc the Rule of Two serves his power addiction wouldve been great to have in his Galactic Empire.

"Oh but infighting" yeah bro you have a lot of intelligent and efficient people in the same organization and theyll butt heads. Mfs forgot that the OG Sith Order was a W2 job and not a daddy issue abuse cult lol

There's a reason why the Reconstituted Sith Empire lasts for millenniums and the Galactic Empire lasts for like 25 years

[warsamongthestars]

Honestly you're right.

The Rule of Two doesn't work anyway; mostly it was made as to why there was only Palpatine and Vader in the films by a book writer, and how come every apprentice of Palpatine dies before getting Vader.

There's not a whole lot in the way of being able to kill both apprentice and master and just, defeating the whole sith line then and there. Just find a really good slugthrower and a good opportunity.

Though in fairness, nobody seems to talk about how the Force can affect probability, and that Force-Users can affect probability. Meaning that, you can end up with the luckiest evilest sunsobitches in the galaxy. Example; Luke, powerful force-user, gets told of his "dead" father having been a spice-runner pilot for the Hutts, and boom, you suddenly get Han Solo, suspiciously in the same position of those childhood stories, being in one of the most important groups of Star Wars and the only one who doesn't have any connection with Anakin Skywalker in some way or fashion.

Frankly, how the hell does any Sith teachings even survive when the Master is constantly dying to the Apprentice.

I personally like the idea that the Rule of Two was Revan's attempt at future sabotage to any Sith. Because Revan was one clever sunnovabitch.

Now a proper Sith Empire, oh yeah, that would've been fantastic. Interesting characters, evil wizard warriors of all flavors... And yeah, it would've worked.

Plus add some social commentary about how rich people will keep bad systems in place because they benefit, and you've got an on-going world-build.

[warsamongthestars]

"BUt the Logic is SOUND"

Honestly, when you put it like that in reference to a fictional story, or even a long running fictional franchise, it kinda makes me hate it more.

The idea of being thoughtful outside of the story, is so that you can flavor the story more in your own head. Make things make sense that don't make sense initially, consider another thought, another point of view, eccetra. Maybe even multiple--not every story has only One Point to make.

My problem with the logic-is-sound arguments is that, is when it comes to stories that have no substance, try to throw out the themes and narratives that were built up, or basically flush the characters out with the bathwater...

At that point, you're not arguing consistency or lore or anything such, you're making excuses.

"But its canon!" -- Canon is debatable, alterable, and overall, unreliable.

My view of canon is that one makes their own canon, by accepting certain things as canon to their view, with the full acknowledgement that each art piece involved is a stand alone that doesn't need a series to complete itself; and that most stories can and will live without their sequels and prequels, in perfectly fine narratives and themes.

For example, making a story that considers Lovecraft's Call of Cthulhu and Edgar Allan Poe's The Raven as canon to its background. But the individual canons of those stories, will not consider my story to be canon to theirs. They stand alone in their own foundations just fine.

And that automatically disregards any logical arguments. They're only logical to you, because you consider what you're talking about canon to you. Because canon is picking and choosing, the real question is your values on the matter.

But there's this attitude that when one does that, they're arguing for a greater world-view canon like its one big truth.

When the only actual truth of the matter is, there isn't one. Its art. Art is a craft and a science.

Ask any person who scrolls on Tumblr, art is also pick and choose by the audience member.

There's no reason not to treat corporations who perform far more bullshit and with far less honesty, any differently.

[moosethren]

Husband talked about member berries when we watched the new Atla movie and now I can't unthink that's what TBB also has a lot of.

Just not nostalgia/memory berries but rather hook berries that go nowhere dfhfghdhgfh

[warsamongthestars]

Oh yeah.

( Personally, I'm to the point where marketed "nostalgia" just fills me with boredom and disgust. Unless I find it myself by circumstance, or have it twisted in an unusual way like a psychological horror--no nostalgia for me. )

I think the worst part about it is how I keep finding "logical" arguments about TBB.

"But the logic is sound!" - The story ain't pal. It goes no where, it isn't fulfilling to any character, and the narrative is all over the place. It hooks you because you remember the Clone Wars, but dat's it. And it spent a lot of time spitting on the Clone Wars and whatever the Clone Wars built.

[warsamongthestars]

Baring the Brain Control Bit.

My view of the Inhibitor Chips, before TBB, was this.

They could be control chips, yes, but they're also knowledge-unlockers. Like how would Rex know to call Palpatine "Lord Sidious", for example, unless he already had that knowledge filed Somewhere.

Its also funny how that One Little Line also cut TBB off from TCWs canon. Because in TBB, clones are little more than redshirts with robot tropes attached; but in TCWs, they weren't just hostile, they Knew things. Their world view wasn't just controlled, it was Changed Immediately.

With this in mind, I imagine clones were only under the chip for orders--but their personalities and memories were altered with the new knowledge. Years of loyalty to Jedi would be thrown out the door for the one they were actually trained to be loyal to.

So even if you removed the chip after that, all you did was remove the capacity to give orders. The Trooper is still changed. They may not even return to "how they used to be" because now they know Everything they were prepared for and were under whatever else the chip does for long enough.

Bit like sleeper agents, both ways.

The real clone story after that, would be learning to live with change and have to redo the whole journey of making one's choices. Only now, many may not even want to anymore.

[mxkyrie]

This makes Wolffe’s reaction to Kanen when they first meet in Rebels make so much more sense.

[warsamongthestars]

Yey.

It'd also open up so many stories.

Like for a few examples...

... A trooper who's chip didn't work, but he ended up with all the knowledge from the start, and is just kind of confused that other troopers are shocked.

... Troopers who's chips are removed, but they don't "go back to normal", and remain imperial hostiles.

TBB flubbed the run, so they don't count.

... Troopers who chips are removed, but the result is a kind of retrograde amnesia or possibly, permanent coma.

... Troopers who's chips were so often turned on and off, their chipped-self has become a secondary programmed personality for their brains to compensate with he constant shifts.

... Troopers who's chips stopped working because of radiation or headtrauma, and thus, never receive any back-knowledge nor acknowledge any Orders.

And so on.

[shetheyslain]

I’m pregnant and it’s no one’s

#selfish

[chitaayakuqing]

Also, in spirit:

[warsamongthestars]

... Well that's a parallel.

[warsamongthestars]

One of the big reasons that Disney's Star Wars isn't interesting, is because their villains aren't interesting.

And those that do pop up, when they're not ripped from a pre-buyout property, don't stay interesting for very long.

Like, Hemlock. A quiet sadist, a background bad guy drawn to the surface. Might've been interesting if there had been more show foreshadowing. Instead we got a half-assed meme on twitter, and they didn't even get the fucking plant right YOU HAVE WIKIPEDIA HOW THE FUCK DID YOU GET THAT WRONG.

But what is the point. Now don't get me wrong, part of the reason I am just, not connecting about the guy is because by Season 3 of TBB, I'm basically wishing for an end, any end, if it means this thing will finally stop.

But his death isn't satisfying. His cruelty is, frankly, overdone, to a point where Crosshair's torture is taking too long and I have a short lunch break.

Then we got Rampart. Pretty decent set up, a young smug officer prick with about as much heart as a staked vampire. But for the guy who blew up Kamino, he got defeated by circumstance, brought back by incident, only to die in a Mexican Shootout with a character who was, for some reason, made semi-Heroic when Nala Se was half the fucking reason as to why Order 66 succeed and is the primary cause for Fives' death---and frankly the fact that she wasn't a bad guy in TBB blows my mind so much, my brain is now geography.

And those are just the characters.

A faction tends to have a Theme to it, a narrative it follows, its almost an enviromental-cahracter all in itself.

But the only thing that Disney's Empire says is EMPIRE BAD. LIke, there's no nuance here. There's not some benefits, there's no ordinary people walking around, there's no goofing around, its just EMPIRE BAD. It spawned in already being the Empire without working towards it, as EMPIRE BAD.

"But the Villains are meant to be EVIL you're not supposed to LIKE THEM"--If you made bad guys that aren't interesting in one of the MAIN FACTIONS of the FICTIONAL NARRATIVE in the MAGICAL SPACE GALAXY WORLD PLACE, YOU FAILED PERIOD.

Like lets' take some examples.

Team Rocket from Pokemon are bad guys. They steal, they're part of a crime syndicate that has done awful things. But they're intersting, and they always come back, and everybody remembers Jessie and James. T hey they're cartoonish... They are the lightest example here in my list.

In Fullmetal Alchemist, we run into so many bad guys. Hell, the leader of the nation of Amestris is literally called the Furher. But each one is interesting, and written unique, and each one is complex, even the ones who don't show up often, and has their own values and goals.

Berserk is just, bad guy central (and full on adult-mature, kids, you have to be 18 years old or taller to read this ride). Like, you get it, and they're absolutely Fucked, and the reason you hate Grifith the Most is because he is excellently written to be a piece of shit. And each one, no matter how heinous (and they are Heinous, i mean nightmare fueling horrors and it only gets worse), is interesting, even as a simple obstacle.

Warhammer 40K is made of Bad Guys. Every possible good guy is dead, even the ones you think are good guys, are those who have full on planetary genocides and mass murdering sacrifices on their hands or have done so many fucked up things. They are so drenched in blood it colors their very stories There are No Good Guys in Warhammer 40k, there is only the Evil You Prefer. Each and Everyone is Interesting and well Crafted with DECADES OF LORE BEHIND IT (so much so that it is literally unfeasible to read it all).

Quite frankly, the Imperium would take one look at the Empire and wonder why all these guardsmen are out of uniform and then go fling them into the nearest Campaign, where they'd all die trying to stop the Orks. The Emperor would take one look at the Astronomicon, and then melt on the spot looking into the eye of the undead body that is EMPEROR OF MANKIND. Vader would be crushed instantly. Hell, forget even getting that fair--the Immatrium's shit alone would insta-kill any force-user before they get 10 lightyears of the 40K Milky Way because the spirit realm of this place is irrecoverably fucked.

The point is, is that Disney's Empire ain't shit. It all boils down to EMPIRE BAD. You can't make it more interesting, because EMPIRE BAD. You can't get thoughtful, because EMPIRE BAD. Can't get nuanced, because EMPIRE BAD. Can't even discuss it half the time because most folks I read talking about it can't seem to get past EMPIRE BAD. BAD BAD, BAD BAD. EMPIRE BAD, EMPIRE EMPIRE BAD.

I've seen good written evil in fiction... To a point where the real evil is, is having all the power and resources to make a good story, and then making thin slop instead.

[moosethren]

There's a lot one could do with Hemlock to make him more interesting, I feel. It's what I'm gonna attempt anyway since he's part of my re-write still. And I remember being in... (do we see him in S1??) anyway, the first time I saw him, I was intrigued because he looked and sounded interesting. And from what I can tell in S3 (still haven't looked at the whole thing and don't think I can be arsed to xD) he's just... kind of weirdly there, being Evil?

Nala Se having any hint of redemption is annoying as hell...

I'll admit I play a lot into the whole Empire Bad too, mainly because it's easier and it's become a theme in SW on it's own that... the Empire is just Bad. That and it's also hard to write around it in some cases since it's so ingrained in every story - and I'm not getting paid to fix all of that, I AM LAZY.

But I'm sure the Empire has done 'good' for some worlds too. I imagine some criminal worlds have maybe become safer because the Empire wiped out gangs. Not everyone in the Empire can be 100% bad. But also if you try to turn it in any other direction, you're accused of being a fascist. Crosshair fans had to endure that accusation a lot.

Generally I dislike the new trilogy and the whole clone thing with Palpatine and what not. It's not canon in my eyes gfhfgh it's such a weird direction to take the story into. Speaking of nothing fdhfghf

[warsamongthestars]

Yeah, I remember the debacles about the Crosshair thing, even though the whole reason we got current day clone troopers was because there were a lot of fans of Boba Fett and they wrote him into the Prequel Trilogy. It's almost as if they're just, fictional objects

Ironically, looking back on it now... Wow, so many folks bullied people for liking a character from Mediocre Media at best.

Secondly, and this is for the new kids in the audience, when someone starts making comparisons to the 1940s top five favorite subjects, especially in a fictional media long after the fact--its because they're troll, even if they got a "TOTAL LEGIT GUYS SERIOUS BADGE" on their blog. Recommendation is always to block first. Because it's a bad faith attack from the start, and that's not worth suffering an asshole over.

As for the "accused of fascist"... With all the bullshit Disney has done, why aren't they going after Disney. The simple answer is because Fans are easy Targets. Like, fans are just being fans, as fans always are. So I'm gonna label this new troll type as "Party-Killers". They're bad faith extremists.

Folks want to enjoy their Toys, kids want to dress up as their favorite characters, and as I was proving in the post above--I know things in fiction so evil, the Galactic Empire are the Good Guys in comparison. Palpatine is more or less a goofy manager at Wendy's in comparison, to say, to Father from FMA, or the Adeptus Mechanics of Warhammer (And that's ope tip of that entire underwater ice mountain range, let me tell you)... Motherfucking Griffith.

So all that shit infuriates me.

I'm not expecting indie folk to make EMPIRE QUESTION. I'm more or less just going after Party Killers, who are bullies, and Disney.

It should be fun to write bad guys, like if its not gonna be enjoyable, what's the point.

Though being paid to do it would be nice XD

[warsamongthestars]

One of the big reasons that Disney's Star Wars isn't interesting, is because their villains aren't interesting.

And those that do pop up, when they're not ripped from a pre-buyout property, don't stay interesting for very long.

Like, Hemlock. A quiet sadist, a background bad guy drawn to the surface. Might've been interesting if there had been more show foreshadowing. Instead we got a half-assed meme on twitter, and they didn't even get the fucking plant right YOU HAVE WIKIPEDIA HOW THE FUCK DID YOU GET THAT WRONG.

But what is the point. Now don't get me wrong, part of the reason I am just, not connecting about the guy is because by Season 3 of TBB, I'm basically wishing for an end, any end, if it means this thing will finally stop.

But his death isn't satisfying. His cruelty is, frankly, overdone, to a point where Crosshair's torture is taking too long and I have a short lunch break.

Then we got Rampart. Pretty decent set up, a young smug officer prick with about as much heart as a staked vampire. But for the guy who blew up Kamino, he got defeated by circumstance, brought back by incident, only to die in a Mexican Shootout with a character who was, for some reason, made semi-Heroic when Nala Se was half the fucking reason as to why Order 66 succeed and is the primary cause for Fives' death---and frankly the fact that she wasn't a bad guy in TBB blows my mind so much, my brain is now geography.

And those are just the characters.

A faction tends to have a Theme to it, a narrative it follows, its almost an enviromental-cahracter all in itself.

But the only thing that Disney's Empire says is EMPIRE BAD. LIke, there's no nuance here. There's not some benefits, there's no ordinary people walking around, there's no goofing around, its just EMPIRE BAD. It spawned in already being the Empire without working towards it, as EMPIRE BAD.

"But the Villains are meant to be EVIL you're not supposed to LIKE THEM"--If you made bad guys that aren't interesting in one of the MAIN FACTIONS of the FICTIONAL NARRATIVE in the MAGICAL SPACE GALAXY WORLD PLACE, YOU FAILED PERIOD.

Like lets' take some examples.

Team Rocket from Pokemon are bad guys. They steal, they're part of a crime syndicate that has done awful things. But they're intersting, and they always come back, and everybody remembers Jessie and James. T hey they're cartoonish... They are the lightest example here in my list.

In Fullmetal Alchemist, we run into so many bad guys. Hell, the leader of the nation of Amestris is literally called the Furher. But each one is interesting, and written unique, and each one is complex, even the ones who don't show up often, and has their own values and goals.

Berserk is just, bad guy central (and full on adult-mature, kids, you have to be 18 years old or taller to read this ride). Like, you get it, and they're absolutely Fucked, and the reason you hate Grifith the Most is because he is excellently written to be a piece of shit. And each one, no matter how heinous (and they are Heinous, i mean nightmare fueling horrors and it only gets worse), is interesting, even as a simple obstacle.

Warhammer 40K is made of Bad Guys. Every possible good guy is dead, even the ones you think are good guys, are those who have full on planetary genocides and mass murdering sacrifices on their hands or have done so many fucked up things. They are so drenched in blood it colors their very stories There are No Good Guys in Warhammer 40k, there is only the Evil You Prefer. Each and Everyone is Interesting and well Crafted with DECADES OF LORE BEHIND IT (so much so that it is literally unfeasible to read it all).

Quite frankly, the Imperium would take one look at the Empire and wonder why all these guardsmen are out of uniform and then go fling them into the nearest Campaign, where they'd all die trying to stop the Orks. The Emperor would take one look at the Astronomicon, and then melt on the spot looking into the eye of the undead body that is EMPEROR OF MANKIND. Vader would be crushed instantly. Hell, forget even getting that fair--the Immatrium's shit alone would insta-kill any force-user before they get 10 lightyears of the 40K Milky Way because the spirit realm of this place is irrecoverably fucked.

The point is, is that Disney's Empire ain't shit. It all boils down to EMPIRE BAD. You can't make it more interesting, because EMPIRE BAD. You can't get thoughtful, because EMPIRE BAD. Can't get nuanced, because EMPIRE BAD. Can't even discuss it half the time because most folks I read talking about it can't seem to get past EMPIRE BAD. BAD BAD, BAD BAD. EMPIRE BAD, EMPIRE EMPIRE BAD.

I've seen good written evil in fiction... To a point where the real evil is, is having all the power and resources to make a good story, and then making thin slop instead.

[moosethren]

The warning

Banner art: qwiqwiaqwi

New chapter in Look to the horizon and fly! Mind you, this is a canon divergent version of TBB.

masterlist post (fanfic summary, info etc)

AO3 link

Small tidbit below.

"Oh, come on," Ash threw out her hands and her wings in frustration. "He's their brother! You can't expect us to not try."

Cid gave a dismissive wave. "Do it in your own time! This whole thing brings you down to 70% of the cut." Tech's eyes narrowed in response.

"That barely covers the fuel and supplies we used."

"That's final. Take it or leave it." She held out a few credit sticks, which Tech reluctantly accepted. Then she went for her office, clearly fuming the whole way there.

"How could she just - the nerve!" Ash hissed under her breath.

"She has been a lot more temperamental lately, even for a trandoshan," Tech noted, pocketing away the credits. It was worrying, because it suggested something wasn't right. And in the criminal underworld Cid moved around in, it wasn't a good sign.

"Trouble with the boss, is it?" A vaguely familiar voice spoke out behind them. Ash looked over her shoulder, her eyes widening in surprise.

"… Hakon?" The male cardul gave her a big grin. Which was the total opposite to Tech's now displeased expression.

"You remember me," Hakon proudly continued. "I must have left an impression last time."

Ash slowly crossed her arms over her chest. "Not a good one."

"Ah, well, can't win them all. But enough about me. Look at you," he gestured towards her with both hands. "I had no idea that a priced jewel of Cardulia hid behind that helmet last time. If you ask me, you shouldn't wear one at all."

"I would suggest you wear one," Tech butted in. Preferably one that muffled his voice. He realised he did not like the way Hakon spoke to Ash. "It is very easy to fracture the bone structure in the face."

Hakon raised a brow towards Tech, before glancing over at Ash and then smirking.

"It's good advice," she agreed, looking none too amused.

[turtledork02]

i really like that wrecker is that kind of person that only thrives and is happy when he’s around other people. if that man was alone for too long he could become severely depressed. he’s a people guy, he needs them around him at all times.

we never see him really “alone” other than short moments on missions. granted, the batch themselves are almost always together. but we often see the others going off to do a hobby they love by themselves, taking a moment alone, or just sitting in a corner to get away from everyone for a moment. they willingly take some time away from the others for a bit, to have a moment of quiet. we DONT see that with wrecker. (as far as i can remember anyway)

wrecker is the most himself when he’s around others. when there’s fewer people or he’s alone, he’s quieter. visibly sadder. he strikes me as the type of person that if he were alone for too long, he would get too into his own head and get really sad or depressed. quiet makes him think too much. if he thinks too much, he’ll easily spiral. i think being around others, especially people he loves, is what keeps him happy and sane.

[warsamongthestars]

...

We clearly need a "Wrecker Alone" episode.

Hell, we needed episodes where each character is alone. One, to emphasize their character, and two, to emphasize why they're a team.

And add two, we can have episodes where they're alone in different ways.

One) They're alone, but they've got a home / team to return to, so its more like the character is simply the star focus and free to explore without issue.

Two), They're ALONE-Alone, and have to survive through both the situation and the stress.

( Yeah Crosshair Technically gets one, but I don't count Crosshair for various reasons )

Honestly its just a good way to test main characters anyway.

[warsamongthestars]

So...

Dee Bradley Baker, our favorite Clone Trooper voice, is also apparently...

Squilliam Fancyson from Spongebob, Daffy Duck from SpaceJam, Cinnamon from Adventure Time (who I have to say, Wrecker sounds like Cinnamon), Appa from ATLA (makes Appo that much funnier), Numbah 4 from KND, Lion from Steven Universe, THE FUCKING GRAVEMIND FROM HALO, and just bout every alien form from Ben 10.

Honestly the Squilliam and Daffy Duck threw me.

[warsamongthestars]

I've been thinking about Compelling Characters, and of course, I gots to go back to my punching bag for it.

Hunter...

... Isn't compelling because his goal set is generally unknown beyond "avoid all direct action". If we were to judge his character values by his writing, he's an "avoid all confrontation" type unless he's the one doing the confronting (and that's not a good look for someone we're supposed to be rooting for).

He doesn't have any character development. He A) hasn't changed as a character, and B) we haven't learned anything new from him.

And in fact may have lost development, because his supposed abilities never show up in TBB.

At best he is second fiddle to Omega.

Tech...

Is fairly compelling in that he has values as a character; but what he lacks is a forward self driven goal for a main character, and mostly relied on as the "solve it" guy.

Sadly, much of his episode gags do lack substance.

He has one piece of character development, A) he is a thrill seeker and daredevil, in contrast to his rather formal personage. A positive development that strengthens his character, as contrasts are compelling.

However, he has lost development in that he is no longer a knowledge seeker and instead is the deus ex machina of solving episode problems. He's that close to being the techno-babble guy.

Any further development and compelling ended with his death. His death also shattered the narrative and the characters, due to its shock value and not for its emotional impact.

Wrecker...

Isn't a compelling character because he lacks in-story direction beyond a third wheel on everyone else, along side character values and goals.

Much of his character is used for gags over time, or are given to the Worf Effect (defeated simply make the other guy look good, at the cost of Wrecker becoming the weakest character).

He lacks character development; we learn nothing new of him and he doesn't seem to change beyond what can be explained as the story shelfing him.

Crosshair...

Is seemingly a compelling character given the emotional charge of the narrative he is given. But this compelling fails because the character A) lacks significant self fulling goal, B) lacks internal values beyond a goal forced upon his character.

Most of his story is born out of the fact that his current character was forced onto him by an outside force, and was not brought upon by internal self driven change.

The narrative repeatedly attempts to claim that its self-fullfilling, but repeatedly defeats itself each and every time as it A) doesn't give the visual development to make that happen, B) doesn't give enough character development or visual evidence that its characters are not plot-driven tools.

AKA, Crosshair is one of the main definitions of Railroading. How the hell they achieved that outside of a video game is both confusing and commendable and cute...

But its wrong.

Echo...

Was fairly compelling as a former TCWs tertiary character, the one who introduced much of the character for Clone Troopers as a whole, and has a slew of history behind him.

However. Throughout much of TBB, he lacks forwarding goals, and what forwarding goals he was written with, lacks character values.

This results in a unique instance where he abandons his brothers for his brothers, that we never see the fruits of, ultimately damaging or destroying any compelling relationships he had with the main cast as well as removing him entirely from character development.

What character development we know he has had, because we saw it, was flushed out upon a lack of writting around it. He is not given screen time for any talk or outlet about what happened with the 501st, he was not given screen time or writing for a character he had a close relationship with (FIves).

And much of his personality between TBB and TCWs has been so drastically changed that we appear to have two different Echos. While this change can be theorized in-narrative, the only confirmation had is that he had different writers who didn't put any focus on him for either TBB or his TCWs self.

And as any fanfic writer can show you, anyone can write a character as they are known.

TBB Echo is non-compelling for a lack of development, lack of viable character values, and for a goal that takes him off the main cast.

Omega...

Is seemingly the only compelling character, for a totally original donut steel.

She plays the part of "Child falls into adventure"; it should be noted, however, that in such scenarios, the child-character involved is often an everyman that shows off how odd, magical, adventurous or unique the world around them is, and how out of place they themselves are.

Omega flips this on its head by being more special than everyone around her, and not allowing the strength of characters to shine by bouncing off of her--instead, they are written to cater purely to her, becoming the singular character goal that all strive to care for.

This is what makes Donut Steels--when a character, without putting in plot effort or character effort, earns the relationship and goals of all around them and only achieves this by either A) shaving off the goals, values and character development of the characters around them, or B) they weren't developed enough to begin.

Emerie Karr...

Is not compelling for the fact that she is a Aesthetic Copy-paste, except for a female model change and the fact that she's a doctor (if using syringes and looking at an ipad is enough to make you a doctor).

While she is developed in that, A) we learn some of her past; it comes off as more as a quick two sentence summary.

She falls into a 2-D character category in that her only primary character is her relations with the characters around her, and not for any action she herself has performed, nor any goal or values she has (which she hasn't), her near total lack of any character development, and the simple fact that she is boring on presentation.

The rest of the BBs are interesting to look at, even if they're not interesting to interact with.