日向、このぼけ!

"When it all feels like everything's impossible, and you don't fit right in a crowd, go wild and break the mold. If you don't try you'll never fly." - Brave, Action Item

[you-usuratonkachi]

I posted this in a comment under Danny Motta's new reaction video to Book of Atlantic and I thought I would share it here too because I haven't written anything about Sebaciel in a long time but I actually feel this so strongly, I also want to know your thoughts! I'll just copy and paste lmao

"Oh right as for SebaCiel caring or not caring for one another: that's the beauty of their relationship! Not only it is ambiguos to us, I totally think it's ambiguos to them too. Because while they do perfectly understand the position they are in, in relation to one another (one is a demon who wants to eat the child's soul, the other is a child who's just using the demon for revenge), the fact that they are bound by a contract that doesn't let them act out their natural power-dynamic makes their relationship completely different from what it objectively is.

Ciel is very aware of the risk of his relationship with Sebastian, but he's shown time and time again feeling safe only in Sebastian's presence. Because he's still oh so very fragile and traumatized, Sebastian will be his final doom but he's also currently Ciel's safe place, the ONLY place where Ciel has any ounce of control. The thing with Ciel is that he's absolutely powerless UNLESS Sebastian is with him. Through his "fake" control over Sebastian, Ciel can overcome his trauma and seize his life again. Sebastian will be his end, but in the meantime, Sebastian IS his only way to salvation. So even though Ciel is aware of how bad Sebastian will ultimately be for him, Ciel also holds onto Sebastian for dear life because, well, Sebastian IS what's keeping him alive at all, both phisically and psychologically speaking. So, you see, Ciel DEPENDS on Sebastian to a degree that makes it impossible for him NOT to care for Sebastian to a certain extent, because Ciel is human and humans have feelings, they grow attached to the place where they feel safest (even though the safety is deceptive and temporary, at the moment it still is the safest for him). On the other hand he remains aware of Sebastian's nature and the last thing he would want in this reversed power-play is to show that to Sebastian (or even admit it to himself), so he treats Sebastian like a dog and THAT self-awareness amuses Sebastian to no end. And to Sebastian's amusement actually hangs the delicate balance of their relationship.

Sebastian is an old demon who's grown bored of his own nature. He doesn't want to just eat souls and be done with it, he thinks a soul should be "seasoned" before eating. What attracts him to Ciel, what makes Ciel's soul so delectable in his eyes, is how contraddicting it is. How small and fragile but willing to fake it out until the end. Willing to PLAY with him until the end. Sebastian finds it SO ENTERTAINING. And in his long eternity that's what he decided to put value into. Not his hunger or the quenching of it, but the entertainment of the chase. The fake power-play between them, playing subservient to such a small thing AMUSES HIM to no end. And to a demon, who is said to have no feelings, that's probably the closest there is to care, because to keep being amused, he could do this forever, and to keep the amusement going, he would fake-care for Ciel forever, and while one could argue that "it's fake", the beauty of it is that fake caring and actual caring make the same difference in the big scheme of things, in the temporality of human life, because ultimately Sebastian will keep Ciel alive at all costs for as long as Ciel whishes to keep this game going just so Sebastian can keep being amused by him, and while it might not be love, it's definitely a form of twisted affection.

Ciel is a human, he will die eventually. In fact, without Sebastian, he would have already been dead long ago. To Sebastian though, who's an eternal being (as far as we know), Ciel's entire life, even if he died at 100 years old, can be compared to a blink of an eye. So this "momentary" game they are playing, this fake life, is for Ciel just one thing: his life. Period. To him, it's real. Their entire relationship (and Black Butler's plot as a whole *cough cough*) is a big "fake it 'till you make it". In the end, their fake power-play, becomes their actualy power-dynamic, their fake roles turn into their actual roles, and the game, at least for the duration of Ciel's life, is nothing but reality itself, their feelings or fake feelings included.

So see? I don't know if I explained it well, but I find their relationship SO FASCINATING."

[you-usuratonkachi]

i love your analysis so much ugh😭

i was thinking maybe the “truth” that el might not like was that mike thought she wouldn’t need him anymore(?) or that mike feels inferior to her?

thank you, anon 🥰

Neither option seems like a truth that El wouldn't like to me??​ Like, at most it would feel like something she doesn't understand.

I mean, let's imagine that's what he told her when she accused him of not being able to say ILY.

"El, I'm sorry, it's just that sometimes I feel like if I say it, you wouldn't need me anymore"

which in itself makes absolutely no sense. Like... how in the world are the two things related? 😭 Unless he's saying he believes she just needs validation from him and as long as he doesn't give her any, he's sure she will cling onto him, which is HORRIBLE. And manipulating too.

if he said "El, I'm sorry for not saying it, it's just hard for me, I feel like I'm not all that compared to you"

it would make even less sense because even here there's no relation whatsoever with the two things??​

if he believes she's that special compared to him, it should be easier to shower her with love, not harder.

But let's say it makes him feel vulnerable since he's insecure. Why would she not like THAT? If he told her the truth, why does he assume she would get angrier at him instead of understanding him?

Him being insecure is foundamently NOT a bad thing for their relationship, it just means they have to work together a little bit more to make Mike feel differently.

If he just said "I'm not ready, because I feel insecure" that would be valid?

From a storytelling stand point it makes no sense that THIS is the truth she wouldn't like, because it does NOT undermine his feelings for her, on the contrary, it gives her a valid reason why he's not saying it, which in turn should assure her that it's not what she thinks (that he doesn't love her) but he's just feeling bad about himself and once they work through that he will be able to verbally communicate his feelings too. IT WOULD HAVE BEEN REASSURING.

So that can't be it.

The only truth she wouldn't have liked to hear, is what she had already assumed and accused him of - that he doesn't love her anymore.

[you-usuratonkachi]

when mike and el have a real conversation about their relationship in season 5 and decide to take a break and remain friends. they both grow individually and rediscover their love for each other over the course of their friendship and get back together post time jump yea

nlg this is the only way i see Mileven working once again and I would actually accept it, if they did this, assuming they do show me how they both grow outside of their relationship and how that helps them solve the issues they had as a couple.

contrary to popular belief, I don't hate Mileven, in fact I actually really like them? I always shipped them, and while I could see that Will had feelings for Mike, I never jumped on the Byler train because I was part of that chunk of general audience that strongly believed that Mike would never feel the same for him and the last thing I wanted for Will was for the writers to make him go through heartbreak on top of everything else. So I always rooted for a new character to come in and make Will forget about Mike.

Until the writers decided to make me rethink Mike completely with season 4 and make Will so utterly IN LOVE with him. The moment they made Mike behave weirdly towards Will, bringing up Byler explicitly for the first time but also showing that there's something going on inside Mike's head that is kept hidden, is the moment I started wondering: why?

I think Mileven is a cute couple. People say they have no chemistry, I think they do when they are properly written. The problem is that they haven't been written that way AT ALL in S4. THAT's what should worry you. THAT's what made me feel like this might be going in a direction different from what it always seemed to me?

The Duffers know how to write them in a way that makes people root for them. Even with how little they had to work with in S1 and S2 they still gave them such beautiful scenes together, which is why I liked them in the first place, and I'm saying this knowing full well that Mike spends most of his time in S2 with Will, mind you. But they didn't do that in S4. They purposefully wrote Mileven in a dismissive way. They chose to put emphasis on Will's feelings for Mike and left Mileven in ambiguos waters.

If the point of it was to make us feel for Will, the most effective way to go about it would have been to show us how good Mileven are together. That would have reached the same goal. But that's not what they did at all. They showed us that Will believes they are the perfect couple, but they also purposefully shown to the audience that THEY ARE NOT.

Not just that, they had Mike NOT tell Will what the problem between them was at all. They left even that ambigous for no apparent reason. But do you know what never exists in storytelling? A choice made without a reason.

Mike didn't tell Will what the problem was and there is a reason for it. They purposefully made him say "if I told her THAT THING" instead of having him say "if i told her I loved her" because clearly that's a plot point. There's a point to Mike not being able to mention it to Will. Or agreeing to Will saying "what if they don't like the truth?". What is there for El to not like about Mike telling her he loves her? Uh. Something doesn't add up? And of course Will doesn't get it, because that's the whole point, Will is not supposed to know that Mike and El aren't the perfect couple, but the audience IS.

In fact, we are spoon-fed this very truth for the whole season.

The writers chose to have them all lie and the writers chose to put Will at the center of all Mileven's scenes for the duration of an ENTIRE SEASON.

That's what made me feel like Mileven wasn't as cute as they were before. They didn't make me care for them even one bit for the whole duration of the season because they purposefully framed them so that I would not care.

They framed and wrote them so I would only care for how Will would view them instead.

And guess what? What's exactly what I did.

They made me wear Will's shoes and I wore them for the duration of S4. They didn't just introduce me to Byler, they literally pushed me (and I'm guessing a lot of other people, judging by the numbers) onto it and told me "you want this now" and, fuck, I did. I do.

I don't ship Byler for its potential, I ship Byler because the writers made it so that I would, and that's what I think should be the most concerning to people who do not ship it.

They spent a whole season making sure that people would literally fall into the Byler train and sacrified the opposing relationship to do so. Do you really think it was just so they could go "ah just kidding" in S5 and end the storyline there?

I know for sure that's not the case.

[you-usuratonkachi]

Have you heard the Duffers said in season 5 they won’t focus on romance cause they already fixed all the ships in season 4?

anon, that's not what they said at all, please go back to watch the whole segment without taking 10 seconds of their explanation out of context.

also, they never focused on romance, the main plot was always the supernatural storyline + romance as a natural addition to it because... well, human beings flock together and bond over trauma LOL

[you-usuratonkachi]

! ableism refers to bigotry/hatred towards those with a disability; thing racism, homophobia, sexism, etc. this is the term for such forms of injustice, when it’s happening due to the person being disabled. as a disabled person, that last anon…. i really don’t see their point? certain ‘el dies’ theories could be ableist, for example, if they were to say “el should die because she’s academically behind other people her age” (part 1/2)

(2/2) but simply believing that they might kill off el in the final season isn’t an ableist take- at least, i, as a disabled person, haven’t noticed anything inherently ableist about that theory. you could argue that it would be bad to kill her off because she’s at a different level of ability than the other characters, but the view that el is disabled isn’t one that’s really supported by canon, as she seems to be fine and independent, so… anyways, hope i explained what ableism is well!

That sounds like a very broad term that could potentially include... a lot. I’m not surprised that people would take advantage of “loopholes” in its definition to make it losely fit to literally anything... 

I’d rather have anon argue with me about why having El die at the end would be a shitty ending, rather than reducing it to being “ableist” without any thought whatsoever to explain what they mean. It just feels like they threw in the word to make it sound like disagreeing would be insulting or socially unaceptable, but spent no time whatsoever thinking about the story’s narrative and natural progression. 

This said, I don’t think taking that anon ask seriously makes any sense either, because they were clearly just trying to hate on Will, so I’m not gonna expect any type of explaination. 

Plus I also think if someone was to die, it shouldn’t be any of the kids, El included. For how much I love him, I’m afraid I have to admit that the one whose death would make us suffer most but would also make the most “poetic” sense is Steve’s...

[you-usuratonkachi]

if el dies in the end by sacrificing herself the authors would be ableist. is better for will to die

i don't want either to die?? i think both choices would be bad endings. I want to see El living a full, normal life, where she gets to be herself and where her powers do not matter. And I absolutely want to see the same for Will. Neither of them should be feeling like they are mistakes or monsters. Stop saying anyone should die, they shouldn't, my God.

[you-usuratonkachi]

Why do people want Mike to date Will? In the 80s it was a crime to be gay if they date they have to keep their relashionship as a secret, it would be frustating and sad. It’s better if Mike stays with El at least he can hold her hand in public

You do realize you're putting

holding hands with a person you don't love in public

VS

holding hands with the person you love in secret,

right?

I dunno what sad life you're living, but I don't think the choice is even debatable LOL

[you-usuratonkachi]

if byler shippers didn’t existed the fandom would be in perfect harmony lol,there wouldn’t be all those ship wars 😂😂😂

The only reason why Byler is being shipped right now is because the Duffers made it so there is reason to ship them, more so in S4. You can take it up with them if it bothers you, but tbh I've never been in a fandom where people aren't at war for ships, especially if the audience is relatively young. Been there, done that, got the t-shirt. I'm so used to it, I really do not care.

[you-usuratonkachi]

Millie is an abuse victim and idk if she herself recognizes that but it's easy to see from the outside and that definitely colors her perception of el and Brenner relationship she also said she hadn't watched s4 yet right after Noah's interview dropped and he said he was trying to avoid spoiling shit so she was probably not aware that it was official™️ also it wasn't her character or storyline and she seems like a really chill person so 🤷🏽‍♀️

i don't know her really well, I just know that she seems very sweet and never ill intentioned. I just think she lacks a deeper understanding of the show... that's all.

[you-usuratonkachi]

Opinion on the Duffers Masterclass video?

i think they perfectly summarized S1 Mike. I don't see why we are freaking out. That's literally what happens in S1. I don't know why we are so adamant in denying that Mileven ever happened or that it was ever romantic.

It happened. It was romantic (again, as romantic as 12 year-olds can be, but still, they were and are in a relationship), what's the use in denying it, it's right there??

I don't know what's so scary of the idea that Mike actually liked her as a girl, as a person, and that he got in a genuine romantic relationship with her.

They were children.

They had their first experiences together.

Now they are growing up and, well, the relationship is not that great anymore. It happens. It's part of growing out of your childhood.

I feel even more strongly about this because when they fight in S4 he mentions that "this time it felt different, more adult, like a fight you cannot comeback from" (or something of the sort), with ADULT being the key-word here.

I think what we are seeing now is them reaching a new phase of their lives and finding out that perhaps they cannot fit each other in their life romantically anymore.

But what the Duffers said? Nothing that hasn't already been shown in the show itself.

[you-usuratonkachi]

I don't know.

I mean, I've been on here long enough now that I know which theories about Mike are the most popular. I know most Bylers believe that Mike is dealing with IH from the start and that he actually always loved Will romantically, he just never knew and that he confused what he feels for El for romantic love because of all his preconceived notions of what's socially right of him and all that. I know most like to believe that he only feels platonic love for El, but... well, I never felt like that.

Rewatching ST from the start, I feel even more strongly about this. Mileven were beautiful. In a "they are children, both of them don't really know how it works, but they are still gonna try it out" because... well, because that's what children do. They feel good about something, they do it, it's as simple as that.

I think Mike genuinely liked El romantically. "Fell in love" with her, if you will, in the way 12 years old fall in love, at least. Have you ever? You cannot compare it to what you might feel in an adult relationship, but that doesn't mean it's not romantic... It's just proportioned to your understanding of the world.

El? El just knew she felt safe and liked Mike. And it's very very true, she should have experienced life before engaging in a romantic relationship with Mike, but even that is technically part of life? It's not like Mike was an adult manipulating her into it, Mike was almost as clueless as her. Yes, he had an idea of what it was supposed to be like, but he was also figuring it out. In the same way they figured out how to dance together at the Snow Ball. He knew what dancing was supposed to be like, but he didn't know how to dance. She didn't know anything. They just got on the dance floor and did whatever. That's basically their romantic relationship.

It's really quite the same for Will? He liked Mike romantically from the start, but he was a child and he didn't know what to do with all that. A lot of trauma ensued and eventually, with age, his feelings grew too.

What I believe has happened to Mike and El instead is the opposite.

Both of them have grown as people, season after season, and it feels to me like what felt like was really big and amazing between them, does not really compare anymore.

In S3 it feels already like it's less epic love and more teenage hormones, which is realistic, they are that age. But a relationship without communication is not gonna survive after childhood and you see that with them a lot. They just don't know how to talk to each other and in S4 they get to a point where the world makes a lot more sense to both and whatever dancing they are doing is uncoordinated in the worst way. They bump against each other, they trip, they feel awkward.

The excitement of discovery is gone, what's left is the more adult knowledge that perhaps they would rather not be on the dance floor together anymore.

That doesn't mean they never wanted to.

They have just grown out of it.

Their relationship has naturally come to an end, because they are different people from what they were when they got together.

Does that mean none of it has been real?

I think saying that would be invalidating their feelings and how they felt in the moment, all the first experiences they had together and what one helped the other understand about themselves, what it is to grow up.

If Will can have romantic feelings for Mike at 12, all of them might have had them.

Mike loving El back then? I believe it.

Now though? I think she is right... he doesn't love her anymore. He cares for her so much, because of course he does! She is important, she will always be, he's just... stopped dancing.

Mike loving El (in his 12/13-year-old capacity) doesn't invalidate his feelings for Will. He could have had romantic feelings for Will this whole time too, just never recognized or entertained them. It's very true that his relationship with Will was always special. The issue is, he never figured he could step on that dance floor with Will.

The issue is, now that Mike seems to be looking around himself, is he gonna ask Will for a dance?

[you-usuratonkachi]

I think making Byler happen this way would also be more natural and less convulted.

There would be no need to backtrack Mike's behavior excessively or explain him in any way.

They could simply show tension between him and Will, have El and him break up and eventually show him fall for Will.

Which if you think about it has already been happening. I'm S3 there was already some tension that wasn't friendly, but it was 90% Will. In S4, though, the one who creates tension between them is Mike. There was a clear shift here, and it wasn't Will. Yes, Will is more self-aware than he was before, but he also strongly believes Mike is in love with El so when Mike comes to California you can tell he's ready to just be Mike's best friend.

Except Mike doesn't let him.

Mike makes it weird and tense and awkward.

There is something going on between them something both of them do not act on.

What is left to do is S5 is for Mike and El to ultimately break up and for Mike and Will to resolve their tension.

The writers are still in time to show Mike properly falling for Will. And they basically wouldn't have to explain anything.

Mike's behavior doesn't have to be Internalized Homophobia.

As far as we know, in fact, Mike has always defended Will from people bullying him for being gay and I feel like he might have been exposed to the notion enough because of the bullying to have grown used to the concept instead of scared of it. To have grown so protective of Will to simply think "so what if he is? what's wrong with being gay" and to actually believe it because he loves Will (even if he doesn't know he might love him romantically, he loves him in all the ways it matters).

So if he realized he loved Will that way, there's a chance he wouldn't freak out because it's gay, but simply because he's in love with his best friend, and that's bad??​ Because it's his best friend. he's not supposed to be in love with him. And Will does not feel the same way. That's gonna ruin their friendship! He cannot like Will that way. It just goes against their friendship-whatever-party-pact they have going on or something.

That would explain his weird behavior without making it complicated for the duffers to backtrack his every move or deny mileven, which would make it most natural to me, personally, and would also make S5 more easily lead to Byler.

What if Mike actually knows Will is into boys? What if he has always known ("it's not my fault you don't like girls")? What if he knows and he accepts it? He always has. In fact, he believes being gay? Is not a big deal! His bestest friend in the world is gay that cannot be a bad thing! He firmly believes that. So if he happened to like Will, no gay freak out, he does not care about that, but a "oh no am i in love with my best friend??" freak out? that he would have for sure. Especially if he's still in a relationship with someone else and he's torn between them.

That would also explain why in the van scene he looks like he WISHES that Will was talking about himself instead of El. Istg I keep thinking about it. It's just, the way he looks at Will... all touched and hopeful... and he grows disappointed when Will tells him the painting is from El... like... there's something there... but I don't think it's IH...

How oblivious is Mike exactly? I'm sure he doesn't know that Will likes HIM, but perhaps he does know that Will does not, in fact, like girls. In fact, he probably takes it for granted and doesn't make a big deal out of it at all, which is also why he wouldn't see Will's struggle in wishing to come out.

Because everyone, EVERYONE has always treated Will like a freak. But Mike. Not Mike. Mike has always made him feel like he's not a mistake at all. Even when he got possessed by the Mind Flayer he highlights that. Everyone but not Mike. Because Mike treats him normally.

Is it so far fatched to believe Mike has always known? He has always defended Will but never denied it.

The step from THIS to Byler is much much shorter and easier to work out in one season than any other alternative to me. And it also feels like it fits Mike's character more (to me).

[you-usuratonkachi]

I don't know.

I mean, I've been on here long enough now that I know which theories about Mike are the most popular. I know most Bylers believe that Mike is dealing with IH from the start and that he actually always loved Will romantically, he just never knew and that he confused what he feels for El for romantic love because of all his preconceived notions of what's socially right of him and all that. I know most like to believe that he only feels platonic love for El, but... well, I never felt like that.

Rewatching ST from the start, I feel even more strongly about this. Mileven were beautiful. In a "they are children, both of them don't really know how it works, but they are still gonna try it out" because... well, because that's what children do. They feel good about something, they do it, it's as simple as that.

I think Mike genuinely liked El romantically. "Fell in love" with her, if you will, in the way 12 years old fall in love, at least. Have you ever? You cannot compare it to what you might feel in an adult relationship, but that doesn't mean it's not romantic... It's just proportioned to your understanding of the world.

El? El just knew she felt safe and liked Mike. And it's very very true, she should have experienced life before engaging in a romantic relationship with Mike, but even that is technically part of life? It's not like Mike was an adult manipulating her into it, Mike was almost as clueless as her. Yes, he had an idea of what it was supposed to be like, but he was also figuring it out. In the same way they figured out how to dance together at the Snow Ball. He knew what dancing was supposed to be like, but he didn't know how to dance. She didn't know anything. They just got on the dance floor and did whatever. That's basically their romantic relationship.

It's really quite the same for Will? He liked Mike romantically from the start, but he was a child and he didn't know what to do with all that. A lot of trauma ensued and eventually, with age, his feelings grew too.

What I believe has happened to Mike and El instead is the opposite.

Both of them have grown as people, season after season, and it feels to me like what felt like was really big and amazing between them, does not really compare anymore.

In S3 it feels already like it's less epic love and more teenage hormones, which is realistic, they are that age. But a relationship without communication is not gonna survive after childhood and you see that with them a lot. They just don't know how to talk to each other and in S4 they get to a point where the world makes a lot more sense to both and whatever dancing they are doing is uncoordinated in the worst way. They bump against each other, they trip, they feel awkward.

The excitement of discovery is gone, what's left is the more adult knowledge that perhaps they would rather not be on the dance floor together anymore.

That doesn't mean they never wanted to.

They have just grown out of it.

Their relationship has naturally come to an end, because they are different people from what they were when they got together.

Does that mean none of it has been real?

I think saying that would be invalidating their feelings and how they felt in the moment, all the first experiences they had together and what one helped the other understand about themselves, what it is to grow up.

If Will can have romantic feelings for Mike at 12, all of them might have had them.

Mike loving El back then? I believe it.

Now though? I think she is right... he doesn't love her anymore. He cares for her so much, because of course he does! She is important, she will always be, he's just... stopped dancing.

Mike loving El (in his 12/13-year-old capacity) doesn't invalidate his feelings for Will. He could have had romantic feelings for Will this whole time too, just never recognized or entertained them. It's very true that his relationship with Will was always special. The issue is, he never figured he could step on that dance floor with Will.

The issue is, now that Mike seems to be looking around himself, is he gonna ask Will for a dance?

[you-usuratonkachi]

plot hole?

mhm, i was rewatching S1 and i realized something...

you know when in S1 Will is missing and Joyce writes letters on the wall to communicate with him. we know Will used to letters to tell her where he was and to warn her to run and at the time that made a lot of sense? Because we assumed that as she put the letters on the wall, those also appeared in the Upside Down. 

The problem is that we find out in S4 that the Upside Down is stuck on the day he went missing, so whatever was added later than that day, never appeared in the Upside Down. 

In other words, those letters never existed in the Upside Down, he couldn’t see them. 

What he knew was that there were lights everywhere, because lights in the Upper World do leave a trace in the Upside Down, but that wouldn’t be true for the letters. 

So how did he manage to know that there was an alphabet there and to choose the right letters too...? 

[you-usuratonkachi]

ngl i still spiral between "the Duffers are amazing writers" and "the Duffers are shit writers" there is no in-between.

I hate that they wrote themselves into a bind. It would have been so easy if they just glossed over Will's crush for Mike and gave him another love interest in S4, but no, they made it LOVE, they made it epic and they emphazised it as much as they possibly could and now... now there is no going back.

it's either going to be groundbreaking or homophobic, which in turn will either make or break the entire show for me after it happens. My favorite show is at risk of being hated by me because of one single plot choice.

Why did they do this. Why.

[you-usuratonkachi]

This is my interpretation ofc but I think both El and Mike have savior complex syndrome towards each other, which is why they are incompatible (aside from everything else).

In S1, El was a hero with powers but essentially was in need of protection. When Mike and others found her, they helped her to meet the world for the first time after she spent 11 years of her life in a lab. But the moment El started to grow and become independent, her relationship with Mike started to become weird really fast.

Is it just a coincidence that all of El's personal development and growth happens when she's away from Mike? S1 was El's first introduction to the outside world (the real world outside of the lab).

Her development starts in S2... interestingly when she's away from Mike. She meets Kali and others, starts to learn more about her past and realizes her powers, and gets to learn more about them.

In S3, her personal development takes place when she breaks up with Mike. The moment she decides to form a friendship with Max and when the two girls become close. She learns how to be free, how to decide her own likes and tastes, she says it herself that she didn't even know what she likes. She learns it through Max and their connection and influence. In S3, that's the moment where she's truly happy and gets to learn more about herself and personal development.

In S4, she grows stronger and more independent when she leaves Mike... like this is a thing that's constantly happening on the show that it's getting weird if not intentional. She faces the demons of her past, faces that she's not a hero or a monster, and gains more confidence. Is it really random that she constantly grows and develops when she's away from Mike?

Mike claims that he needs El to need him... Is it really true? I think Mike has a savior complex because after all when they found El, Mike was the one who introduced her to real life. Forget that they were only 11 and El was ignorant to the outside world, she never had to chance to find her own identity. She didn't even know what romance even meant. This thing between Mike and El... is it really a romance? Or something that they stick to because that's what they feel they should do?

Let's also take a look at Mike: he never showed any interest in any girl before aside from El before, this girl with superpowers whom he and his friends found. Is it strange to think that he ended up sticking to her because of ''oh, this is a girl so I should love him'' mentality and heteronormativity? But the moment this girl doesn't need him anymore as she grows older and has more personality and agenda, Mike feels conflicted that she wouldn't need him anymore... which is, yeah, he's right.

Mike and El bring each other down. They cannot even be themselves around each other. Mike feels inferior whereas El's development stops when they are together in a relationship. The only moment Mike was genuinely himself was when he was in Hawkins playing D&D and was with his friends and Eddie. He tries to be this different person to El but he fails because that's not who he is, after all. Whereas El lies to him constantly because she wants to seem perfect. They cannot even be honest to each other yet open up to each other.

Is it a coincidence that Mike feels like himself and more open when he's with Will, despite the fact that they barely spoke when they were apart from each other during this time period? Mike can be vulnerable and relaxed when he's around Will, because he doesn't have to act like someone he's not. They have many heart-to-heart convos. Did El and Mike even heart-to-heart convos in any way on the show? Mike opens up to Will like the way he never opens up to anyone. He cannot even hold his relationship with El without Will's peer pressure and coded-confession and prompt, apparently. I was actually kind of shocked seeing how emotionally dependent Mike was on Will in this season. Because in the earlier seasons, Mike was the one who always helped Will. But this time Mike himself was almost completely dependent on Will. This drew a major parallel in Mike/El versus Mike/Will relationship.

Mike and El work platonically. But they don't work together romantically, this has been constantly shown on the show. I was never able to understand Milevens when they said ''Mileven has been built for season''. No. It hasn't. It's been constantly torn down in S3 and S4. If anything, what we been shown that they are incompatible together when they are in a relationship. They can never grow together (unless they are away from each other), they can never be honest with each other and never have heart-to-heart moments, they always have the urge to lie, they have to act like someone they are not, etc...

That's why I think Mileven won't be end game, whatever happens with Byler.

you already said everything, anon. it's curious that when they are together they don't seem able to communicate or grow together. it's their major issue.

[you-usuratonkachi]

i think millie is such a sweet girl but when she talks about the show i always end up ?????? confused because what she says and what everyone else says seem to not match up ??? 

like when they talked about how mirabel was going to go this season and she said that they have their issues but it would all come together by the end and we would see that mike truly loves her ?? but then finn is like ?? who knows, maybe, hope they find happiness ??? 

she goes oh will is working it out ?? while noah said will is gay and in love with mike ??

then she says brenner is her real father figure ??? when her whole character arc is leaving brenner behind and realizing that he was the monster not her ?? 

like don’t get me wrong but sometimes it feels like she’s not understanding what goes on in the show at all?? not even her character? 

she did put brenner and mike together so i think she did see the parallel there, which flew over most people’s heads, but she came to the wrongest conclusion possible with that ??? 

i’m just so confused 

???

[you-usuratonkachi]

“it was like someone pretending to act” 

THIS. This is exactly it. 

The conclusion is completely wack, but even this person got what was going on. 

Mike was acting out what he thought he should be feeling. So basically Finn was acting as Mike acting sincere.

And he nailed it.