So, I've been a little slow on the uptake here but I've come around to realising that the six non-Flowery flowers all seem to relate to Kris in one way or another. For a lot of them it's pretty obvious -
Aqua is a reflection of them as a very young child who doesn't quite understand how playing with knives can be dangerous;
Yellow parallels their absolutism when it comes to the mistakes they've made, and the sheer suicidal lengths they will go to in an attempt to "atone" for those perceived mistakes;
Orange reflects their tendency to project and make themself seem tougher and more self-sufficient than they really are;
Blue emphasises their artistic talent and flair for the dramatic, as well as offering a clue about the way they express their love for others;
and Seth reflects their need to feel "special" and their deeply-suppressed pride in their own intelligence and skills.
But I was stumped on Green for a good while, because they didn't really embody much beyond being a good cook and very chill person who everyone loves instantly. And it wasn't until I really thought about what ties these two characters together that it clicked into place for me.
Because Green is utterly mute throughout the entire chapter, never once speaking a single word of dialogue, and everything they do serves some other person that isn't themself, whether it be their fellow flowers or their supposed enemies. And it made me think - is that how Kris sees themself in relation to others? Is that what Kris feels like they need to be in order to be loved and accepted by others? Being quiet no matter who is speaking to you? Being helpful no matter who asks for it? Even if someone is being hurtful to you, or trying to take advantage of you?
And I thought, once again, about Bratty's dialogue about how the older kids would tell Kris to get them fast food, and then act surprised when they actually did it... I thought about the Promise they've become entangled with, and whatever strangeness is going on between them and Carol, and how they'll never really speak up for or assert themself when they dislike something. And it seems to me like Green is the ultimate projection of that, the ultimate "good" child who helps everyone and keeps quiet and gives people exactly what they want, and is universally loved for it. Green wins everyone over doing this, in a way that Kris has never quite been able to do.
And when you consider the heightened cost to Kris the longer they go along with this plan, the longer they keep Susie in the dark, the longer they go without properly articulating themself... in some ways, Green becomes the saddest and truest reflection of Kris out of all the flowers, because at least those other reflections can actually communicate and draw attention to their own suffering.
everyone saying Susie and Noelle are leaving Kris behind is ignoring the far more likely, far funnier idea, of the two of them being like/realizing âKris is integral to our dynamic and relationship and this just feels so off without themâ
Susie and Noelle thinking in unison âWow I love her and Kris so muchâ while Kris is like âThey hate me. They hate me and want me dead.â
I really like how the fandom has collectively decided "we and Kris are separate entities, we hold the objective viewpoint of the Angel while they are stuck in their silly little world and have very subjective feelings about it" and it's like, no.
We are influenced by Kris just as much as we influence them. Many people are going "ohhh noooo Susie and Noelle are leaving us behind" when in fact Kris is the only person who thinks that and it's just not true at all.
We are forced to experience their subjective viewpoint, and that humanises us! We share their worries, even if we don't know all of them!
A lot of Deltarune is about loving the world (and this is explored in both positive and negative ways), and it was a really good move on Toby's part to take us out of Undertale's "god-like all-seeing demon" state and force us to see the world through the eyes of an angsty teen who's scared of things changing.
There's a reason Kris is the person we're stuck with, and it's because they are written to be the lens we see the world through. The fandom would be completely different if we were in Susie or Ralsei!
If you look through polls, it's really interesting to see the results and think about how they compare to how Kris would answer, because 99% of the time they're exactly the same.
Some people get upset at the fraud Knight jokes but at the end of chapter 5 they confirm that this is kind of canon. Part of the Knightâs power is because they exploit the video game mechanics. They âignoreâ Floweryâs fake stats, they use cutscenes to their advantage, etc. Weâre basically fighting a cheater.
So this begs the question⌠how can they do that in the first place?
In Deltarune, the video game mechanics for the most part are exclusive to the dark world. Things like battles, magic, etc. only happen in this place. To sum it up, itâs the diegetic equivalent of the âgameâ part of the game, if that makes sense.
But Ralsei reveals in chapter 3 that this is all an âillusionâ. The way the dark world works, as Ralsei described, is that the dark fountains turns places so extraordinarily dark that Lightners will begin âseeing thingsâ and âfeeling thingsâ. This creates the âfantasyâ that is the dark world.
So what if the Knight is somebody who can see in the dark? Like, what if they can see everything as it is in real life.
This is why they can exploit the rules, by straight up not playing along. At least, not entirely. This gives them a clear advantage over everybody who goes to the dark world, including us.
You canât get beat up by a literal flower, can you? To them, they just smashed a TV. To them, they just cut a flower in half. In our perspective, they attacked actual characters.
Every time they show up, the Knight âkillsâ escapism, both literally and metaphorically. Well maybe thatâs because itâs not escapism to them. They canât see the illusion.
Eyes have been a subtle motif of this game. The Knight itself even has an eye inside of its chest. Maybe it gave them this ability in the first place.
This would make them an interesting foil to the heroes. These characters that we care about so much, the villain sees them for what they are. Objects. Because of that, theyâre mentally detached to them.
Dark worlds also act as a parallel to dreams. So if this theory were true, wouldnât the Knight be a lucid dreamer? They take advantage of their dream and do whatever they want. Just something to think about I guess
Knight's victims, WORLD'S EDGE, and DELTARUNE's final message
(long asf post so cut to avoid clutter)
It's super super interesting to me that the Knight has been attempting to kidnap everyone involved in the "boundaries" of Hometown:
Toriel, monarch at the world's peak
Undyne, upkeeper of the western barrier
Asgore, last guardian of the lake
Meanwhile, the Knight themselves is connected to the shelter, i.e. Hometown's roots and the furthest possible place we can currently reach (excluding weird route)
When you look at the map, it becomes really clear that these four all control either the very edges of Hometown, or one of the ways out. Indeed, the two people the Knight successfully kidnapped are the ones who guard Hometown's two potential exits.
So what?
Well, what if the Knight is trying to expand the boundaries of Hometown?
Through the lens of device theory (which is practically canon atp), we see that the light and dark worlds are very, very similar. The key part being that Hometown has a past from before the device in which it was able to interact with other parts of the world.
And, after the device is activated, Hometown is constrained. The internet goes out. Gerson's fans can't send their fanmail. The roads are blocked.
Doesn't this sound the same as dark world denizens having communicated with each other? Having pasts together despite the boundaries created by the dark world?
Remember Queen's plan (which she mentioned was based off the Knight's actions) - to expand the dark world. To escape the boundaries of the library, and cover the world in darkness.
What if, by taking away these guardians, the Knight is trying to expand the light world? To try and escape the device's boundaries?
To push away WORLD'S EDGE? Push it so far that the device envelops the whole world, and so there is no EDGE? To create a new world entirely?
The Roaring may be a thematic parallel to this, a result of this, or it might be a way to make this happen. Either way, the Knight is probably aware.
Look at this through the lens of Dess Knight. Noelle desperately wants to escape hometown (one way or another.) She's been promised by her sister that someday, she'll be taken somewhere much better.
Why wouldn't Dess try to expand the world? Why wouldn't Dess want to help her sister, who is trapped inside everyone's expectations of her?
If Noelle is placed in the role of the angel, this is indeed creating an ANGEL'S HEAVEN.
(This theory doesn't work with Carol or Rudy Knight, since Carol wants to keep everything close, while Rudy represents one of the core themes of the game that I'll get onto in a bit.)
Anyways. Let's say the Knight explains their plan. This creates a conflict for each person in the Fun Gang.
Kris represents the past, and desiring a return to it. At first glance, destroying WORLD'S EDGE and causing the Roaring seems to be against their interests, but it also means that Asriel can come back. It's not particularly Hometown itself that Kris cares for, it's their relationships - "exploring the woods behind the graveyard with Noelle, Dess and Azzy" is something brought up as a fond memory for them. We can also see this desire for unchanging relationships with their reaction to Susie and Noelle getting closer.
However, they will struggle to accept this because it potentially means abandoning Susie in favour of Noelle, or abandoning Noelle in favour of Susie. And we've seen that they really don't want to lose either of them. Similarly, it means abandoning Hometown, which they still grew up in. It means abandoning many of the people there they love, including their parents (who have to get kidnapped for this plan). They will, at some point, refuse to lose anything else.
Susie represents the present, and wanting nothing to change. This is best demonstrated in ch4, when she talks about "not having an ending" and wanting to continue her adventures with Kris. If the world is expanded and/or the Roaring happens, she can continue her adventures with Kris. She can explore the new world alongside them, as well as with Ralsei and the other people she's grown to care about. She's only really against the Knight because they're kidnapping people, and so if she learns what the plan is, she might even go over to the Knight's side. (I'm certain of this. Even if everything else I say is wrong, I'm 1225% sure Susie will at some point be VERY tempted to work with the Knight.)
However, she'll learn that while the escapist fantasies of the dark world may feel like "home", and her current situation seems pretty good, she can't rely on it staying the same forever. At some point, she'll find out Kris is working with the Knight. At some point, Castle Town will be gone. Hell, this already happened with Toriel - someone she thought was amazing turned out to be just as much of a flawed person as anyone else. While it may hurt, it will help her move on. And allowing space for the real world in her life will help her get closer to Noelle - she may even need to pull Noelle out of the dark world herself, if it's something Dess designed specifically for her.
Ralsei represents the future, and a fear of it. He desperately wants to change the prophecy, but doesn't think it's possible - especially not by himself. If the Roaring happens, but there's no WORLD'S EDGE for heroes to appear at, then the final tragedy may be averted. He can continue his adventures without needing to worry about what comes next, or feeling guilty that everyone's stepping towards the ending.
However, she's already started to see that the future can change. That she doesn't have to be what the prophecy defines her as, that she can work out for herself what being "Ralsei-like" even means. And she trusts that Kris and Susie can also change it. She doesn't need the Knight to keep everything the same forever. If the Roaring happens, she certainly won't be willing to become a statue - not anymore. Not now she knows she's allowed to desire.
However, I suspect everyone will fall back into their old ways of thinking. (Both because this is a good way of showing progression when they change, and because their arcs haven't quite reached the point I'm describing yet.) There wil be some kind of tacit agreement from the Fun Gang, and the Knight will be allowed to try and carry out their plan. They'll cut down the police tape and try to let everyone into the outside world.
However...
We'll see what's beyond the edge of Hometown. And that'll be a fat lot of nothing.
After all, Gerson said "the story grew too grand, and was left unfinished". Queen's rollercoaster was also unfinished, and everyone fell into the trash zone.
Similarly, there won't be anything beyond Hometown's boundaries. It's very likely (imo) that everyone will fall down, where the forest would grow, and end up in the depths. Much like how Weird Route makes us fall under the map, we'll fall down from the other end of Hometown and end up in the depths. That's why we skip to ch7 in Weird Route - because ch6 will just take us to the same place more slowly.
What happens from then onwards...? Who knows. It'll be left to the youth to write with their own hope.
We, the soul, are doing the same thing as the Knight in the Weird Route - trying to break the boundaries of Hometown (or reaching WORLD'S EDGE), and ending up falling underneath into the Depths.
But I suspect DELTARUNE's final message will be against this idea - will be against constantly trying to overwrite the world with something new. A lot of the deal with Ralsei (especially noticeable with Tenna) is "once something has fulfilled its purpose, that's it. something new has to replace it." Hometown is old and tired. It feels small. Compared to the dark worlds, it really isn't great.
But, constantly rejecting the past and trying to create something new over the top of it also isn't the way to go. Instead, you should look closely at what you've already seen. Perhaps there's a new detail you've never noticed before. Perhaps there's another person you didn't really get to know. Perhaps they love you, and you love them.
If Undertale was warning about becoming obsessed - about doing the same thing over and over, just to see every detail - then Deltarune is warning about not caring for what is already there.
Susie may not have had any faith in Hometown at the start, but she's met many new people - some through escapist dark worlds, but she's also started seeing the appeal of the light world. Even those tiny moments of light are starting to add up. She has hope crossed on her heart, and she can make that hope a reality, and not just a dark world fantasy. The dark worlds helped her, and once she escapes her dependency on them, she won't forget them.
Noelle may constantly be looking for something different and better, but she's learning that she can stand up for herself and take control of her own life without changing the good bits, too. This is why Rudy Knight doesn't work with this theory - he represents the support of a loved one, the love of the current world that exists in spite of its harshness (Carol). Noelle, along with Susie, will choose the things that make them happy, and also won't forget.
Ralsei may have thought that she had no worth beyond what is demanded of her, with only Kris and Susie being worth anything, but she's starting to learn to care for herself as well. She can see what she isn't, and what she is, and start to love herself. Similarly, she's learning to genuinely love her friends, too, instead of just being "nice" all the time and calling that friendship. She won't forget her own desires.
And Kris. Kris. Kris desperately loves this world and the people in it, but feels as though they have no choice but to replace it with something different. Hopefully, by the end of the story, they'll learn that they're allowed to love this current world without abandoning and betraying what they're leaving behind. They won't forget.
This is why a lot of the gameplay is about secrets. You're encouraged to do multiple playthroughs. You're encouraged to fight the secret bosses, you're encouraged to find the shadow crystals, and you're encouraged to collect the eggs. You love this world, so don't abandon it immediately once you've seen its end. Maybe you can go back and find a new meaning.
Meanwhile, you're discouraged from doing the Weird Route because it actively spits in the face of this idea. It says, "I've seen it all, and I'm not satisfied. I can't accept the current world, nor the ending I've reached. So I will replace it with something new." And while it's a demonstration of love - you love this world enough to try and put your own influence into it - it's also a rejection of all the love you've been shown by the world in turn.
It's saying you don't trust the Fun Gang to reach a happy ending. It's saying that this current world is obsolete. It's saying "There's something better than this world, just beyond what we can see. And I will reach it, and forget about whatever I've seen so far. Because this world has reached it's conclusion, why should I care it's maintained?"
In the Weird Route, you forget the people that made this world worth seeing in the first place. You forget...
And that's why the Weird Route cannot possibly, ever, lead to a happy ending. Even if the final tragedy is averted, forgetting what came before can only bring pain.
In conclusion, Deltarune's final message is, "Don't Forget." Even if you move on to something else, and the world changes, don't forget what you loved. Don't paint it over with the newest thing, just because it's all over now. Keep it with you, and it will light up the dark.
WOWIE that was a long post that just came from "hm what connections do the Knight victims have"
I didn't even include like half of the stuff I could have, like the connections to the themes of freedom and how Sans plays a role in this, but I figured just sticking to the basics and only focusing on the main trio and Noelle was best to reduce wordcount
Anyways I hope you enjoyed my ch6+7 spoilers hehehe
I don't think I got everything right - I feel like I'm not including the Roaring very well in this theory, so I'm interested to see your thoughts about this!
(I'm not particularly active in the theory scene, so this is probably something someone's already thought of lol.)
i think the roughest part about adjusting back to normal life in a post epilogue world for han sooyoung and kim dokja is that they both uncovered latent natural born scheming talent the likes of which haven't really flourished in society since medieval china like they really do have god given gifts for rubbing their hands together and mumbling darkly to themselves about their various poisoned chalices and such. and without the apocalypse there just isn't many healthy ways they can channel that anymore. in this sense yoo joonghyuk is the beloved chew toy of two working dogs trapped in suburbia, in that his natural henchman talent allows them to channel all of that diabolical manipulation in a safe and healthy manner as they concoct metaphorical rube goldberg machines to trick yoo joonghyuk into doing such miserable tasks as watering the garden or baking them lemon meringues for dessert. its enrichment for all of them. really, thank god they have each other.
romaincrisis
blakekathryn
theartofmadeline
