stay frosty

just another pro-lgbt discourser tryin to make their way in the world. The name's Ryan, the pronouns are she/they, and I'm autistic. I'm a minor but am fine with people of any age following/interacting! ~terfs not welcome~ discourse 101 about im trying to turn my discourse around into something more positive so please don't dredge up something from months ago and start yelling at me for it.

[acephobiafreediscourse]

I'm curious, what does being a nb girl w/o being trans mean to you? I'm not hating on you, jsyk. you're gr8

oof this is a super old ask im really sorry!

basically i was assigned female at birth and i present mostly female, so i don’t feel comfortable identifying as trans because i do partially identify with the gender assigned to me at birth. 

it’s a personal thing-- some afab nb girls Do identify as trans, but it’s never felt like it was my label to claim. i don’t face a lot of the same struggles and experiences that other nonbinary & trans people do, and a lot of my nb identity is about a complicated relationship with womenhood rather than a total detachment from it.

again though that’s just me! :) different people feel different ways

[gojitoad]

Homosexual and queer aren’t slurs.

Ace and aro folk have and will always be members of the LGBT+ community. Furthermore, they’ve been around for way longer than y’all exclusionists have.

You don’t get to gatekeep, especially if you have no idea why the queer movement exists.

[colorisbyshe]

Homosexual is a slur, even GLAAD acknowledges that it is offensive because of its ties to pathologizing gayness.

Queer is a slur and always has been a slur; that’s why groups like the Westboro Baptist Church bring signs to the funerals of gay people saying “No Tears for Queers” along with all of their signs saying “F*gs Burn in Hell” as well as:

 There is no historical evidence of non-LGBT aces (cishet aces, cishet aros, cis aroaces) being included in the LGBT community before David Jay began campaigning for it in 2003; where he acknowledged that the a was for ally and also bragged about including F*G and BDSM in the acronym

In fact, asexuality wasn’t even a concept recognized beyond the fringes until the 1997 essay “My Life as an Amoeba” by Zoe O’Reilly. AVEN cites this as the first ace community. This essay largely talks about aces longing to be “celebrated” like gay people are, lmao. Please note, this essay only remains envious of LGBT people, it never implies non-LGBT aces walk among them.

The LGBT community has always been exclusive by design; that’s sort of the crux of how safe spaces can work. A safe is only space so long as it keeps unsafe things out; i.e. the safest house is a locked one. Keeping out our oppressors–cishets and cis aroaces–is not gatekeeping; it’s common sense. And its’ how the LGBT community has existed for the entirety of its existence.

There is no “Queer Movement.” There is no movement “just for queer” people that excludes LGBT people who do not reclaim the term but does include cishets.

Stop embarrassing yourself because this is just pathetic.

[acephobiafreediscourse]

please please please stop oh my god the word queer makes me want to throw up and you're saying not wanting to use it makes me an assimilationist and just another rich cis white gay who's afraid to get their hands dirty fuck you fuck you fuck you. ive bled for this goddamn cause i have laboured and fought and rallied and just because i don't want to fall under the category of 'queer' none of that matters anymore?? fuck you! you're saying i can't fight for your cause, MY cause, unless i'm willing to put myself under a label that makes me sick?

[hundondestiny]

problems w ace idpol

I’ve been blocking a ton of people on the “no-sex bar” post and like what I’ve been bothered most by is the assumption that a space with only- or predominantly-ace people would be completely devoid of sexual harassment or “rape culture” simply because us Filthy Allosexuals™️ aren’t present.

Workplaces are supposed to be non-sexual environments, and yet people still get pressured into quid pro quo exchanges to keep their jobs or get promotions they’ve probably already earned, people still get sexually harassed, people still face discrimination based on their gender and sexuality.

Public spaces are supposed to be non-sexual because lewd conduct is illegal. And yet, people are still catcalled and groped.

The issue is not that we don’t have “non-sexual spaces”, the issue is that we have a culture geared towards male entitlement and the dehumanization of non-men as being consumable for men in some way or another.

The fact that people think men, even ace men, will somehow completely cease all forms of harassment and violation of others’ autonomy simply because you say “no sexual contact allowed!” shows how absolutely ignorant most of y’all are to how the world actually works.

And this is a big reason “ace discourse” and the presumption that all ace people should be inherently queer concerns me. Because even if you do create “ace safe spaces”, when you allow people who are materially in social classes of power (ie. cishet men) to be in those spaces, they are inherently not going to be safe.

There is always going to be a problem with communities who refuse to self-crit and reject any “outside” (which is stupid considering ace ppl want to be “acknowledged” as being queer/LGBT) criticism as to the material implications of those identities.

One of the biggest problems will be predators can hide behind the wall of identity purism and y’all will protect them because it’s more important to “protect aces” than to protect folks who are marginalized under pre-existing social stratification.

You are aligning yourself w someone who benefits from and contributes to misogyny, rape culture, and homophobia solely on the basis of completely fluid and self-applied labels that you expect to go absolutely uncriticized.

It’s bewildering to me how people are so committed to constructing their own narrative of oppression and discrimination that they simply refuse to acknowledge the way oppression exists as a material force. The inability to differentiate between the “micro-labels” that detail the minutiae of your romantic and sexual experiences from identities which serve as markers for oppression by a cis/heteronormative is not only counterproductive, it’s also massively dangerous.

The fact that folks get burned at the stake for making those kinds of statements is just 🤷🏾‍♀️ absolutely ridiculous but what’re you gonna do.

[hundondestiny]

this is okay to reblog. atp i would really love to see what arguments ppl have w this cuz I’m just at a loss and I’m tired of coddling ppl bc “uwu ur an aphobe so u don’t matter” like that’s dead.

[blehblahble]

Yeah I’ll give it a shot.

I think the fundamental difference between making an ace only space and making a desexualized space, like a workplace, is that, theoretically, nobody wants to be sexual. I don’t think you fully understand asexuality if your thinking “what’s to stop these ace men from sexually harassing people?”

[trubutt]

If you think asexuals haven’t and don’t rape people idk what to tell you but I do know you’re a piece of shit

[blehblahble]

I’m not saying it never happens, but I would be certainly willing to believe that occurrence is way down, for what I think are obvious reasons.

[catandkitty]

this is a bad and harmful response/line of thinking for a lot of reasons including but not limited to: ace being an identity that (any) person can take on for any reason at all and cannot be proven or disproven, like for example if someone wanted plausible deniability for having committed a rape, and secondly the ongoing and vigorous unsolicited INSISTENCE that ace people can and do fuck frequently and with abandon!

the fact that the ace identity was created in part with the EXPLICIT intention to distance themselves from rapists is part of the problem bc it a) frames all non-ace people as more likely to rape and b) is used on the daily to excuse the sexual abuse and harassment perpetrated in the ace community

[acephobiafreediscourse]

secondary point... rape is not and never has been about sexual attraction. people don't rape because they think the victim is hot. it's about a power dynamic and the forcing of your will on somebody else.

[acephobiafreediscourse]

im done w discourse i'd rather focus on creating safe inclusive spaces and honestly so long as cishet aces stay in their lane when it comes down to it? ive decided i have bigger problems to deal with than whether they're participating in lgbt events. i dunno what my opinions on the discourse are at this point. cishet aces need to learn to check their damn privilege but if lgbt spaces provide comfort and community to them then so be it. you're welcome in my community if it helps you feel safe and loved, and i don't feel like debating the finer points of that anymore. are you lgbt? does it really matter? in the end i just want to help people, and im focusing on that. this blog will stay up as an archive and i'll check notifs on this post if there's something you want to say in the replies! i wish you all well, and try and remember to be kind. ♡

[surrealjock-deactivated20230801]

something i genuinely dont understand is what cisgender hetero ace/aros would want out of being in the lgbt community, without using homophobic rhetoric like “its for people with weird/abnormal sexualities!”

youre welcome to talk with me about this because i just…dont get it. what could we provide for you that your own community wouldnt be better suited for?

[snowenby-deactivated20190322]

Okay, so. I’m not cis, and literally nothing about me is het. But here’s what I, as an aromantic asexual nonbinary person, gain from inclusion in the LGBT+ community, because these are the kinds of things that all aces, regardless of any other aspects of their identities, gain. (And, I mean, there are discoursers that like to file aroaces under ‘basically straight’ and call it a day. So there’s that.)

By being included in the LGBT+ community, I gain…

1) Education & awareness: By being part of a wider community, we are able to better spread awareness of our orientations. We are able to lobby for issues that affect all of us - better and more sensitive education on health and human sexuality, as an example, since that’s an issue that’s near and dear to my heart - because we have more voices speaking in solidarity. And, furthermore, we gain access to an already-vetted and established network of voices speaking up on issues pertaining to orientations that aren’t straight.

2) Counselling & support: For aces who are subjected to corrective therapies. For aces who are victims of abuse or violence because their partners do not accept their asexuality or believe that their asexuality can be “fixed.” For aces who have suffered from medical malpractice because of their orientation. For aces whose mental illness is exacerbated by lack of acceptance and support, for aces who are depressed, or suicidal, and need support that is sensitive to and respectful of their identities. These are resources that do not exist for ace people specifically, and likely never will, because of how few of us there are.

3) Material resources: For me, personally, I would gain the knowledge that, when my roommate broke our agreement to renew our lease after I came out to her, I could go to an emergency shelter for LGBT+ people while I figured out my living situation if I wasn’t able to line up housing in a hurry. Or that, if my parents hadn’t believed that my asexuality was successfully “cured” when I was in high school, I could have accessed scholarship money for LGBT+ people, in order to escape to college, something that I otherwise could not have afforded without my parents’ support. Again, because of how few people ID as ace or acespec, this is not something the ace community can feasibly provide.

4) Physical gathering spaces: The closest real-world gathering space to me that’s specifically for ace people, that I’m aware of, is about a 3.5 hour drive away from where I live, if I want to avoid crossing an international border. One way. I would have to spend 7 hours in a car, total, if I wanted to meet other aces, in an ace-specific real-world space. Being able to access a physical space where they don’t have to pretend to be straight could very literally save an ace person’s life, and there are a hell of a lot more LGBT+ community centers, teen centers, bars, cafes, etc. than there will ever be ace-specific versions of these spaces.

5) Pride and solidarity: Because too many of us grow up knowing that there is something wrong with us, that we are broken, that we are not experiencing life the way we’re told we are supposed to. Because too many of us still know today, even with a word other than “broken” or “freak” or “prude” to describe ourselves, that we may never be able to be honest with the people closest to us, that we may never be able to be in a relationship with someone who accepts us, that we may have to compromise fundamental parts of who we are in order to feel, for a moment, like we’re safe. Because yes, there is actually a benefit to being told “oh, you’re not everything society said you were supposed to be? That’s okay! Neither am I! There’s nothing wrong with you!” That’s not something you get to make disparaging comments about.

That’s only a partial list, by the way. There are likely other gains that are specific to individual aces, or that I’m not thinking of off the top of my head.

But here’s the thing: the aces that don’t stand to gain something from the LGBT+ community? Even more specifically, these “het aces” that everyone is so afraid of? If they don’t need something from us, by and large, they don’t want to be in the community. And those “het aces” that do need something from the LGBT+ community? They need it as much as I do. You’re not being asked to include them for their hetero attraction. You’re being asked to include them for the same reason you include me: their asexuality.

All that this “het aces don’t belong in LGBT+ spaces” movement is accomplishing is teaching me that when you say I belong, what you mean is “you do not belong because of your asexuality, or your aromanticism, but in spite of them, and we will not offer you support, if you need it because of your orientation, regardless of the rest of your identity. We only support the non-aroace parts of you.” Which is shitty support.

And, finally, I want to talk about the way this discussion is framed for a moment. This list I have provided? These are not “things the aromantic/asexual community would gain if we were counted as part of the wider LGBT+ community.” They aren’t things that we want from you. These are “things the aro/ace community has already been receiving from the LGBT+ community, that we now fear we might lose.”

LGBT+ is not a community I am seeking access to. I’m not asking anybody to pretty please include me too. LGBT+ is a community that I have happily existed in for more than half my life. LGBT+ is more a family to me than my parents, or my siblings, or any of my vast network of aunts, uncles, and cousins have ever been. My LGBT+ elders are the ones that raised me in an environment of support and acceptance, that helped me understand who I am, that supported me while I was questioning who I was, and that were proud of me when I started coming out.

What do I stand to gain? My health, mental, emotional, and physical. My safety. My life. I know that because I have gained these things already. And I know that if something doesn’t change? Ten or fifteen years down the road, when these discoursers that are “just a few kids on Tumblr” that I ought to ignore are grown up, and running community spaces of their own, I might not have any of those things any more.

And that scares the shit out of me.

[nextstepcake]

(another aro ace here, but since we tend to either be ignored or lumped in with the heteroromantic aces anyway, figured I might as well chime in)

Also, just to address the last bit of “what could we provide for you that your own community wouldn’t be better suited for?” - I’m not sure whether “your own community” means the straight community or ace community, but…

1. If it means the straight community? HAH. As probably any queer person can tell you, when you are a young (or old!) person first struggling with the fact that you don’t seem to be feeling what the straight people around you are feeling, when you start looking for help understanding what this means and when you look for support and camaraderie as you figure things out and come to terms with what those differences mean….straight people aren’t going to be much help. 

And even if you’ve been out for years, when you still want someone to talk to, to commiserate with, to ask for advice….straight people rarely have those experiences of questioning their sexuality, of realizing you’re not like everyone else around you, that the social scripts you are expected to follow don’t work. LGBT+ people do.

2. If you mean the ace community? Yes, ace communities are great - but they’re not something that all fledgling aces have access to. While they are growing, not every city has enough ace people to have an established ace community, and even when they do said communities are often younger, newer, and without many resources or much experience. For many aces, when they look for some kind of a community of support, the local LGBT+ group is the only thing around. 

I know that when I was a baby ace going away to university and exploring my sexuality in the open for the first time, there was no ace group on campus that I could turn to - but there was an LGBT center. And, luckily, one that was amazingly supportive. That was also the first time that I met other ace people, since we all had that sought out that same space. And yes, now that we have the numbers, and the resources, we are starting to try and create ace-specific spaces as well - but it’s slow, and it’s hard and it’s not quite there yet. But the LGBTQ+ community has always been there for us through it all.

And, I mean, that’s part of why we have an LGBT community at all, as opposed to a gay mens community + a lesbian womens community + a bi community + a trans community, etc. Because these groups all feel that rejection and lack of support in straight communities, but didn’t necessarily have much access to support and resources on their own. Because combining forces is stronger than struggling alone. I mean, a gay man and a straight transwoman don’t necessarily have much of anything in common either, and may not directly be very useful resources for each other - but they can both join together in LGBT spaces because alliance is stronger than isolation, and because what similarities are there are enough to make it worth it.

3. And, finally, I just want to make it clear that when we aces are in LGBT spaces (because we are, and we have been for years), it’s not like we’re taking hard earned resources and running - those of us who are there are there to give back too. We’re planning events or gathering resources for the others who seek support in those spaces, whether they’re ace or otherwise. We’re volunteering, and donating, and advocating for political campaigns, and offering advice where we can, and so on. It’s a two way street.

[acephobiafreediscourse]

@paintedrocket i’m going to ask you the same question i’ve asked every person who’s replied to my ‘ace positive exclusionist’ post with this, and if you have the energy and/or time, i’d actually really appreciate a reply.

why?

to be more specific, why is it impossible to support aces without believing they’re inherently lgbt? 

saying that asexuality is not an lgbt identity does not invalidate asexuality, nor does it judge, condemn, or in any other way negatively label or compartmentalize the ace and aro spectrums. 

saying that women are not inherently lgbt is not sexist. saying that wheelchair users are not inherently lgbt is not ableist. saying that jewish people are not inherently lgbt is not antisemitic. why is saying the same of ace people aphobic?

(and before you say ‘well what if i said lesbians aren’t lgbt’ or something along those lines? there’s decades of history of lesbian, gay, bi, and trans folks being allied. sga and trans folks are what make up this community, so you can’t use hypotheticals like that as a gotcha)

anyways. yup.

why?

[bodhircck-deactivated20180819]

I think there’s a misconception that like everyone experiences sexual attraction the same way and that not having a high sex drive or not being sexually attracted to people very often is abnormal, especially among minors and young adults.

I am an ace woman who has never experienced sexual attraction or a desire to ever participate in sex so I mean I don’t have first hand experience but from what I’ve heard and observed everyone’s sexual desire is different? Some people have high sex drives, are sexually attracted to a lot of people, and don’t always need to know someone to be sexually attracted to them. Other people have lower sex drives and don’t get sexually attracted until they know someone. I don’t think that this is something that is abnormal or that varying levels of experiencing sexual attraction make for a sexual orientation.

Especially for young people who have like actually no experience with dealing with sex/people who have sex in real life and only clue as to what is normal is what is in the media.

[acephobiafreediscourse]

do any of y’all know if ngozi ukazu is lgbt or if she’s another cishet writing about being gay and getting praised massively for it

[ace-mimikyu-deactivated20171211]

tell me then, in what country is it illegal to be asexual? in what country is it punishable by death?

Where is it punishable by death to be gay? You all can get married now what the fuck?

[delusionalqueer]

places where same-sex activities are illegal: [In Italics is where you can be imprisoned for same-sex activities, * indicates where you can be imprisoned for life, and bolded is where you can be put to death. ] 

 Algeria 

Egypt 

Libya 

Morocco 

Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic (excluding southern provinces)

 South Sudan

 Sudan 

Tunisia 

Gambia *

Ghana (men only) 

Guinea 

Liberia

Mauritania 

Nigeria (death penalty for men in some states) 

Senegal 

Sierra Leone (men only) *

Togo 

Cameroon 

Chad 

Burundi 

Kenya 

Uganda * 

Tanzania * 

Eritrea * 

Ethiopia 

Somalia 

Somaliland 

Comoros 

Mauritius (men only) 

Angola 

Botswana 

Malawi 

Namibia (men only) 

Swaziland (men only) 

Zambia 

Zimbabwe (men only) 

Antigua and Barbuda 

Barbados * 

Dominica 

Grenada (men only) 

Jamaica (men only) 

Saint Kitts and Nevis (men only) 

Saint Lucia (men only) 

Saint Vincent and the Grenadines 

Trinidad and Tobago 

Guyana * 

Turkmenistan (men only) 

Uzbekistan (men only)

Iran 

Kuwait (men only) 

Oman 

Palestinian Territories (Gaza Strip) (men only) 

Qatar 

Saudi Arabia * 

Syria 

United Arab Emirates 

Yemen 

Afghanistan (death penalty unlikely) 

Bangladesh 

Bhutan 

India *

Maldives 

Pakistan 

Sri Lanka 

Brunei 

Myanmar *

Indonesia (some provinces) 

Malaysia (men only) 

Singapore (men only) 

Papua New Guinea (men only) 

Solomon Islands

Kiribati (men only) 

Cook Islands (men only) 

Samoa (men only) 

Tonga (men only) 

Tuvalu (men only)

 None of the countries mentioned recognize same-sex unions or same-sex marriages. 

places where same-sex marriage is not only not recognized, but also constitutionally banned:  

South Sudan 

Burkina Faso 

Democratic Republic of the Congo 

Burundi 

Kenya 

Rwanda 

Uganda 

Zimbabwe 

Honduras  

Cuba 

Dominican Republic 

Montserrat 

Turks and Caicos Islands 

Bolivia 

Ecuador 

Paraguay 

Kyrgyzstan 

Armenia 

Nagorno-Karabakh

Russia (ban proposed) 

Croatia 

Hungary 

Slovakia 

Belarus 

Moldova 

Georgia (ban proposed) 

Ukraine 

Latvia 

Lithuania 

Bulgaria 

Montenegro 

Serbia 

Australia 

Palau 

places where you can imprisoned for being asexual: 

none 

places where you can be killed for being asexual 

none

It’s perfectly reasonable to not know all of these countries ban what they ban; I’m not even familiar with a few of these places. But its just plain ignorant to act like there aren’t places that have criminalized same-sex people or couples. Because there are plenty.

[spacecourse]

you guys seem to think that cishet exclusionism some deep hatred of aces and that we have evil underlying motives when i swear to god we are literally just cishet exclusionists. we just don’t want our oppressors in our spaces. stop demonising us for not liking our oppressors

[acephobiafreediscourse]

Tfw you ask out the girl you like and she says no but ur still good friends and even though she's not interested in u she won't stop talking about how bad she wants a gf and ur just there like "ya I feel u" *single tear*

[aceaventurine]

The ace flag is the flag of the ace community. It is not the cishet flag. 

When you make a moodboard or a meme or whatever using the ace flag, you can’t pretend this is about cishets. You’re using the ace flag.

Even if you feel like it’s about cishet aces, you’re still focusing on the ace part of their identity. That’s…not ok.

[sapropel]

The idea that we argue “are aces and aros inherently LGBT” is SO WILD to me because the answer is literally…. no. Like. They’ve literally never been LGBT. The argument should be “should aces and aros be LGBT” because that’s a more productive conversation and actually makes sense.

[star-aphobe]

i’m not an “ace exclusionist”, though?

i don’t care if ace people are in the lgbt community or not. i’m not going to throw out a gay man because he’s ace, and i don’t see why ace trans women couldn’t be here. i’m not at all excluding ace people.

i am, however, excluding cishets. some of whom are ace. and that’s fantastic for them, but they are not lgbt.

it’s funny that we’re not called “kink exclusionists”. or “mentally ill exclusionists”. or “woman exclusionists”. theoreticallly, we are excluding people from all of those groups, oppressed or not. 

but we’re not excluding them because they’re women, or kinky, or mentally ill, or whatever. we’re excluding them, because they’re cishets.

so. yes. that’s the view this week from me. i’m sick and tired of this fake term that implies things that are entirely not true about this debate. i don’t care if ace people are in here, i don’t care if lgbt people ID as ace, i don’t care if said ace people have weird discourse opinions.

i’m not excluding ace people. i’m excluding cishet ace people. 

which, i guess, is the same thing as “all ace people” to some :/

[kinksharne]

What exactly are your feelings on all the ace discourse..? I'm somewhat confused.

this post pretty much sums up my views perfectly. Basically I believe that cishet aces (like me), cishet aros, and cis aroaces are not LGBT, though LGBT aces are (of course). I believe that “ace” and “aro” are not identities, but just modifiers. Aphobia does not exist and ace people are not oppressed for being ace. All examples of “aphobia” that I’ve seen are really just misogyny/toxic masculinity/problems that many people can face.

Obviously I don’t hate ace people since I am one myself, but I believe that people who are straight and cis should not try to enter LGBT safe spaces. It could be cool to have an ace community, but I think it should be separate from the LGBT community.

I think that’s most of the main points but feel free if you want to know anything else or if you want clarification.

[nonamediscourse]

my question is, what actual material harm are cishet inclusionists trying to prevent? what is going to happen to a cis, hetero-romantic or straight ace, or an aro ace person, if they:

-use a non-lgbt homeless shelter -use a non-lgbt health clinic -use a non-lgbt hotline -can’t access lgbt scholarships or charities

what is going to happen to a cis, hetero-romantic or aro ace person if they try to use homeless shelters that are open to everyone, charities that are open to everyone, etc?

if the biggest fear they have is being treated dismissively, then… that applies to literally everyone who needs those resources.

if it’s that people are misinformed about hsdd, then that’s a misconception, easily solved. ace people aren’t even eligible for hsdd, they aren’t considered diseased. there are no conversion therapy programs for ace people. they are not attacked by strangers for looking “too ace”, and they face interpersonal violence at, as far as we know, the same rates as everyone else.

and if they don’t need those resources, why do they need to be included?

because if it’s entirely about using lgbt people and resources for their own visibility, that’s genuinely predatory and awful! that’s literally cishets taking advantage of our resources to talk about themselves. we, lgbt people, need to better talking to each other about sex and relationships, that’s true. but that doesn’t mean that cis, strictly hetero people need to step in and talk about themselves.