i gave it some thought and fyodor's death doesn't stir anything. "this guy was evil so we had to kill him !!!!" goes against the main theme of living/being allowed to live despite it all so poorly that i could almost laugh. the protagonist hardly interacts with him and treats him like some sort of inhuman monster LONG after being shown to be someone who believes that everyone deserves a second chance. dying with 'i hate you all' as your motive after an arc where you were shown finally (?) meeting someone you can connect with meaningfully is such an awkward way to end things.
narrative wise it's a death that doesn't seem to tie in with anything. there are no major themes on how the only way to defeat evil is by killing it outright. it kills just about all prior interactions with other characters. it defies dazai's philosophy as i see it and the writing itself was clunky and seemed like a whole ton of asspulls to me.
it's disappointing to have a well-built character like fyodor suddenly boiled down to 'a monster who needs to die because he hates people' so close to the end of the arc
couldn't have said it better anon. The more I think about it, trying to find meaning from different angles it frustrates me even more. I dont know what made asagiri kill the narrative this way, whether it be something his editor insisted on or that he hit his head 3 years ago...it's upsetting that this is what 14 years has led to
think i figured it out, and it just keeps getting worse.
asagiri cites the avengers as a major inspiration, right? i sneer hard at MCU, and apparently they had this big-ass showdown with a major antagonist i Avengers: Endgame. Thanos motive was: 'overpopulation bad i'm going to kill off 50% of all living beings with the macguffin'. So we already have a 'you're not wrong but you didn't have to be such an asshole about it' tier motive, spun into the most moronic version of itself (!), with redditors' elevating take of having a secondary personal motive of wanting to prove he's right by succeeding (!!). The protagonists clap him with ZERO remarks on why either motive is moronic (!!!). Reddit seems to have consensus that the final fight scene was Badly Written and disservice to the character (!!!!)
so yeah, it reads that asagiri suddenly remembered he's here to smash somebody else's writing into literature references and pivoted into degraded version of his previous work.
wouldn't be 'funny' if the reason Fyodor's death is Like That is because that was the perfect moment to go hur hur isn't it carnivalesque?
y'know i thought of Fukuchi appearing in 129 as "the author Slipshanking Fukuchi into the plot". It refers to a trick from Continuum: Roleplaying in the Yet - a tabletop rpg about time travel that demands METICULOUS notetaking and keeping track of everything. Specifically, any player can at any point say "i pull X hidden in the environment" - but that places the fact that they planted X in the past into their Yet. If not carried out (and players have limited timetravel range), they will start disintegrating, roughly in the spirit of Back to the Future.
i may be stupid. it's obviously not the greatest chapter but what are some of the problems ? fyodor's death at this point feels anticlimactic no matter what so i might have missed other problems
If his death was framed properly I personally would've overlooked the other problems, but thats not the case so let's go through them shall we.
The way fyodors death was framed gave us no resolution to his ideals. As the embodiment of the story's antithesis, we don't see fyodor's philosophy disproven in any way that matters
In relation to the first point, his death is humiliating and dehumanizing. Is this truly the same story with people of different modalities? That their flaws are in fact part of their humanity? We have loads of killers, and they are all human in their own right. Fyodor is no exception yet! Yet!!! His centuries of suffering at the hands of humans (including the ada in this arc) FOR humanity meant nothing. Apparently the manga positions him as a comically evil villain lost in his logic
This kills the fyodor-dazai parallels, and fyodor atsushi foils. Dazai because fyodor is essentially his reflection, but in asking what he is he denies his humanity which? Also regresses dazai's chatacter? But let's assume that was part of the plan. Atsushi and fyodor essentially have the same goal in mind, but Fyodor's methods ofc got twisted with how long he has lived. Shouldn't the finale be at the hands of atsushi? Shouldnt he be the one to show another path was available for fyodor? Even if he dies, he will die knowing he was wrong all along
Lastly, fukuchi killing fyodor in of itself wasn't that bad (even if I really dislike it) but where the HELL did fukuchi come from 😭 reviving the character that has died 3 times already just to safely kill him off is so cheap. Also the timing is really off; fyodor is shown to immediately subsume someone if it's an headshot, an instant kill. Yet somehow fukuchi had enough time to decapitate him (instant kill!!) Kneel down, and commit seppuku. Wow.
I could nitpick even further but all of these combined makes for thr worst chapter I've ever read. While I disagree with fyodor dying because, what other stakes is asagiri going to make after this? Fyodor should've been the finish line! I still think that if he were to die, it should've been humane and very impactful, not whatever this is
tiny nitpick: conversion seems to happen at the speed of death (showcased by Bram being able to push Aya away)
that said, hard agree.
and to add to: if he is not-dead (remember the hissy fits before CnP reveal?), he'll be just a head in a box, with nary a peep about how dehumanizing it is - or how psychologically damaging. See also: that one panel showing off the cat burglar, implying being fully tied up is her constant state, completely ignoring the permament nerve damage and loss of speech/cognition it would cause.
+/- that one offhand remark about Teruko torturing a guy for months, in which case: it's intended as a character showcase, but information loses value over time + and noone (specifically: Tecchou) gave a shit + she could be put to work/education instead using the time spent
+/- that one comment from Asagiri floating online going more or less 'everything Dazai did to Akutagawa has been for a good outcome'.
And if he's gonna posit via a mouthpiece "hell made you good/strong/etc", wouldn't the logical conclusion be "inflict it on everyone for improvement"?
Which given that it's possible to argue how much Fyodor is into the whole "erasure of abilities" (there are multiple times where he doesn't do the low-effort thing to kill some ability user, because they're phrased as some kind of "similar" to him), anything less than 100% can be reframed as the conclusion above…
…so what is Asagiri's stance on torture, actually?
also: to be changing means to be adaptable. To adapt to the current circumstances/modern times would be to become coldblooded. NOT rebel against the absurd. With either suicide or mindless obedience to a greater power. hmmm....
fyodor lived alone, got tortured and betrayed alone, and died alone believing he was forsaken by the very stupidly sinful people he fought for. And I'm meant to believe this was a great conclusion for the story meant for "those who are bad at living"
discussing fyodor's potential fate in bsd. in other words, this:
whether fyodor ends up locked up or manages to escape, i hope this is something that gets brought up again.
in canon, everyone just learned how fyodor's ability work but given how akutagawa explains the situation, it sounds like the government knows what they're doing.
and this brings so many questions: is this something the government has planed in case fyodor came back? has anyone been detained this way? is there anyone else in particular they want to detain?
i won't go down the anti-carceral rabbit hole, i think we can all agree locking someone like that is plain dehumanization. he won't be able to do anything but think (unless he's drugged and therefore unconscious nut that's not mentioned so idk), and he will be locked up like this forever.
my first thought when reading this was I have no mouth and I must scream by Harlan Ellison (1966) . The antagonist is an AI who loathes humans for making him conscious but unable to do anything, for revenge he gives the main character the same fate. The tragedy of such a fate is that they can't die. My second thought was Notes from Underground by Dostoevsky (1864) in which the main character and narrator has locked himself away in a basement away from all human connections. In the first part of the book, the narrator calls consciousness a curse (i'm not sure about the english translation but you get the idea).
this brings me to think that being locked up without any stimulation is fyodor's worst nightmare. he's hinted at being a lonely individual when talking to dazai in chapter 64
he's lived for centuries, it's only fair to assume he's experienced traumatic events that lead him to see abilities as sins. my personal theory is that his own ability is a heavy part of why he thinks that way. locking him away with nothing but his own thoughts, dehumanizing him, forcing him to stay alive, that does nothing but prove him right. even if he can't day, it'll bring hell on earth for him.
on another note, this chapter is heavy in religious symbolism with the crucifixion and the five wounds, so i see the imprisonment as an analogy of the tomb of Jesus; meaning that if fyodor does end up being locked away, he'll eventually return. (i'm probably being delusional)
It's curious how Fukuchi is essentially the fusion of Big Boss and the Boss from the Metal Gear Solid saga.
Fukuchi shares Big Boss's disillusionment and war trauma, and the fact that they were seen as war heroes, while inside, Big Boss and Fukuchi felt terrible; he and Big Boss used similar methods.
However, Fukuchi's goal was the same as the Boss' because they wanted to prevent a war that would end millions of lives from starting and they didn't care if they ended up being remembered as villains if it meant preventing said war from starting.
Additionally, the Boss' and Fukuchi asked a comrade in arms or loved one to finish them off and wanted to pass on their desire for peace (Naked Snake/Big Boss and Fukuzawa) and to add insult to injury, they were manipulated by someone else (US government and Fyodor) and and their respective legacies were corrupted by other people who misinterpreted these legacies or simply took advantage of said legacies to get what they wanted (the Patriots and Fyodor), and the wars they tried to prevent ended up happening anyway.
Teruko: picked up a child to raise as a child soldier (canonically 12 or smth!) + hunting dogs' modifications will shackle her to the military-industrial complex until death
people - if they do not idolize the myth of the samurai, then they find him endearing (notice the absolute lack of disgust at a high-rank drinking on the job to the point discussion is interrupted by him puking). i remember barely anything of MG, but that's the impression i vaguely recall from MGS3
the whole global vampire pandemic controlled by the guy whose namesake founded the first nation-wide newspaper is a metaphor for mass media propaganda. While the timeline of events does not align, Fukuchi setting up Decay of Angels for the plan to get out of his control <=> Patriots AI taking over the world by basically warping reality* by warping perception via absolute control over information/flow of propaganda (escalating to puppeteery tech in MGS4)
the vibe of "you cannot do good from within the military" FukuFuku has going for them
*how the page is used/works reminds me a lot of Wag The Dog. good stuff.
tl;dr cause can't be assed.
The actual end goal is irrelevant. The point of pursuing the book is attaining infinity of power to accomplish whatever, aka. instrumental convergence.
If you had one, what would you do? Naturally fuse yourself with it, without losing agency, while gaining power to warp out of trouble, be unable to lose consciousness, et cetera et cetera. All to make sure whatever you actually write into it cannot be undone.
As a sidenote: that what has to be written on the page (and implicitly, into the book as a lookup system) has to have story-like structure. However, what does it actually mean? What determines if this criteria is fulfilled?
There is an external - and thus ultimate - authority, making the Book mere admin console you can't use to modify the book itself. Outside of inflicting Death of the Author (in which case how Homestuck-y BSD has to get for people to notice....), not too spicy. A call to fanwork-action (already there with general structure & Beast) and/or rebuking externally imposed purpose (which some smaller opponent can set up just as well), sure.
It's in the eye of the writer - that is, if the book's user thinks it's story-like enough it'll works. But also - if something breaks the writer's suspension of disbelief, they cannot pick that outcome (see also BSD Beast?).
The 2nd option has more edge cases that just keep getting more ridiculous, so let's go:
If it's the writer deciding if the story is legit, it implicitly bakes into the new reality author's assumptions how the world works. What if their ideas have no internal sense in a way that can be reconciled; will it disappear in a puff of logic? Does the great winner turn the page and there's just this huge EAT SHIT, like a Junji Ito scarejump?
In Beast, the option of the world being unstable is brought up. In a deliciously meta fashion - because we the readers know it's fictional, there are now too many in the know and thus it in-universe dissolves out of sheer 4th wall break. But what is the in-universe explanation? The above? The existence of an alpha timeline, and this one only exists as long as needed for someone else to do a thing that will Grandfather paradox it out of the timeline? We already know Fukuchi stabbed from the future to the present, and can do so via self-erasing time paradoxes.
But what if the writer is, say, horror-brained and decides the setting should progressively be more terrifying and incomprehensible. In a way that breaks the very laws of physics that enable (human, since the book probably has sanity check of "will this result in an intelligent species capable of writing") existence. Everything is consistent within the framework of "what good horror story should be". By the previous logic alone, it should work nonetheless.
But what if! The horror writer finishes up the manuscript, hands it over to someone that runs on fluffy slice-of-life pieces and have them write it into the book? Maybe changing word choice here or there, without changing the meaning?
But! what! if! The original manuscript is 1) translated multiple times 2) old as fuck? that would mean the text itself is powered by multiple perspectives - of both the OG writer, but also every translator AND every translator's opinion on not only the text, but the text's context!
The Daiyu-Baoyu theory has its first haters on Reddit 🎉🎉🎉🎉
// Anyway don't go harass anyone over this m'kay? In fact I hope we get more haters cause I actually find these comments really entertaining.
I hope we get enough Redditors knowing about it and hating it that someone tries to make a full post trying to disprove it so I can milk that thing and talk about my own experience desperately trying, in vain, to find contradictions that would disprove it myself.
finding this curious as i was debating whether or not to link your Summation in there. Like, someone solved DQ 'just' before canto 7 and response was ecstatic? what gives?
Regarding Hong Lu's Lasso EGO. The abno of Rose Hunter in its MD event actually has two 'parts', of the apple and the hunter. Given how he shares this one with Faust of all people, I do think it may be referencing how they are both the one forcing the story to go on and the one being forced to go along with it. This is about Hong Lu I swear its just the more you dig the more he somewhat parallels her. One vs two blue eyes I guess.
For Faust this is via the Gesellschaft. Her as the apple in the way she must bend to the will of the collective Faust as one with a defined role to play. And as the hunter with how she - for the sake of someone else just the abno has its 'client' (there's a few who could fit this description, like Limbus Company as a whole, whomever is financing the whole operation, the Gesellschaft again) - ensures via various methods like keeping certain things from the sinners that things go according to plan.
Her passive is 'sprawling lasso' is possibly a reference to just how many she has, must, encircle for things to keep going. Plus this EGO is Fatal to Wrath and Gloom. This Wrath as her weakness ties into how this is the first time her voiceline, for corrosion, has expressed proper anger and desperation in her voice as far as I remeber. And Gloom I don't quite have a real reason for, perhaps her lament at not doing things of her own will? At being ensared as all others were?
But to loop lasso it back to Hong Lu, for one his awakening voiceline says to 'run along the flow' which has been causing me normal reactions for several weeks now. Regardless, this does tie into a mini theory of mine that the 'flow' followed by Vergillius is in fact one of the subterranean rivers, though I don't have the mythological knowledge to try and pinpoint which one.
And if we do take the stretch of a river = the flow then it connects to what Xichun was doing in Canto 7 and is yet another reference to water, just like in his base ego and in his promo image. This EGO is also weak to Gloom, funnily enough. Sloth too, though I have never had solid thoughts on that sin past it representing acceptance of sorts, typically to a status quo that hurts them. The corrosion line is presumably a reference to him probably just running away from his family the first chance he got, which was probably Faust.
Onto my thoughts on the illustrations, which was meant to be a minor note but we all know how these go. The thorns in Faust’s EGO illust are thinner and look more like rose branches, with one notably going over her leg as she looks up, seemingly about to get on the horse.
Whilst Hong Lu's has much thicker brambles around the edges - though the rose branches do appear near the bottom - striking me as similar to barbed wire, though thicker than in the base EGO illusts (speaking of, in his the wire seems much fuzzier than say, Yi Sang's). He's already saddled the horse and is looking down(?) At something that has already been entangled in thorns, the abno looking over him and who/what has been ensnared in a way that reminds me of judgement.
Ensnared itself, mind, seemingly lacking an arm, having another mangled and literally no legs to speak of, and no rose on its scarf. A drastic departure to how it was in Faust’s EGO, laying traps on the ground with all its limbs freed and intact, with a sunray to its side and a rose placed neatly upon itself, much more alike its MD self. Hong Lu's awakening is not lacking in the scarf rose, though.
Other rapid-fire thoughts: (corrosion) the rose petals on the horses look like it's bleeding as if being slashed from the stomach. (corrosion) Faust still has the reigns and very much uses them which provides her a degree of separation and control over this. Hong Lu does not. Most notable in both of their hurt sprites, Faust’s horse stands on its hind legs on her (or the Gesellschaft's, depending on how you think on it) command, Hong Lu's horse wants to run away and it turning to do so. (corrosion) Hong Lu's noose/lasso arms both have 2 loops each, unlike the one round his neck that has 3. Faust has red laces.
To close this off: I have been switching between their lasso sprites on the wiki and have one question: is Hong Lu smaller on his horse or had my brain made that up, thank you.
Hilarious thing to see before scrolling down and seeing all of this. Anyway. Let's pick this apart a little.
First things - the apple might not actually be a part of the Abnormality itself.
We know from Ebony Queen's Apple's Observation Log that Abnormalities that are conceptually connected through what they represent are in some way able to be aware of each other's existence - Ebony Queen being aware of 'Snow White', aka LobCorp's Snow White's Apple.
Considering that Rose Hunter is seemingly likely connected to the same fable of Snow White as Ebony Queen's Apple and Snow White's Apple are, specifically in that he represents the huntsman sent to kill Snow White on the Queen's orders, and that the way Rose Hunter describes the apple perfectly matches Snow White's Apple ("an apple that will become a princess, not knowing its rightful place"), it's possible that the apple in question *is* just straight up Snow White's Apple, or a representation of it.
I do agree that it's important to keep it in mind when interpreting Lasso, but I believe it's pretty clear that the apple itself might not inherently be a part of Rose Hunter itself.
After all, Lasso isn't the first E.G.O we've seen where the Sinner is shown to be both the victim and the perpetrator. See AEDD and Capote as the major stars of this trend.
I don't have much to comment on regarding your interpretation of Lasso for Faust - I think that works pretty well with what we know. Faust has to follow what the Gesselschaft and Limbus Company tell her to do, and she herself is responsible for keeping the Sinners on track - keeping them ensnared and following the predetermined path of their stories.
I'll touch upon the points you bring up with regards to Sin Weaknesses (and also bring up Sin Resource Costs, which I believe are a bit more important to E.G.O) a bit later.
Because, here's the thing about the Flow Vergilius talks about - we already kinda know what it is. We see it in Leviathan Book 16.
Vergilius's narration describes the Flow as a "shadow hovering over his back". A sort of insight, or pressure that drives him to make specific choices or move in a specific direction.
He also explains how the Flow isn't one singular force - in fact, he explicitly mentions seeing at least two Flows during this chapter. One brightly colored but slow moving Flow that he could see ahead (which he feels would lead him to actually changing the City), and one darker but faster moving Flow that clung to his back. Every time he tries to avoid following the bright Flow, the shadowy Flow always leads him to ruin, to a point where he's inevitably forced to come back to the bright Flow, as all shadows naturally come from light.
It reminds me a lot of "Gravity" from JJBA, in a way. A supernatural force that drives extraordinary people towards each other and towards their inevitable fates, and every attempt to counteract it ends up making things worse for them when it finally catches up to them.
It's also, like, Heavily implied that Carmen is in some way directly involved with what direction the bright Flow takes, as there's an implication that it's trying to direct Vergilius to his inevitable meeting with Carmen that happens in Book 18, considering how much her trying to get Vergilius to distort is telling him how it would give him the ability to change the world to how he sees fit, matching what he believed the bright Flow was leading him towards.
So like. Flow isn't exactly directly related to the Rivers. But it's also not not related, considering the Carmen -> Light -> Cogito -> Rivers chain.
I don't think the "flow" Hong Lu is referring to is the exact same Flow that Vergilius can see and talks about, at least not entirely. I believe it's also meant to be a reflection of the reason why he's initially willing to follow his story, similarly to how Faust's awakening line does for her.
While Faust wholeheartedly believes that following the story laid out before her and the Sinners is the "correct" thing to do, Hong Lu simply follows along because he just Goes Along With Whatever He's Told. He figuratively goes with the flow, just agrees and follows until things turn out okay in the end. To quote one of his Base Identity's voice lines: "When you’re distraught, simply remember that life goes on even if what you’re doing now doesn’t work out. Then, you’ll be free of worries." As long as he just keeps moving forward, things will be fine in the end.
So, if the Awakening lines are a reflection of why Faust and Hong Lu would feel like they should follow along the path their story is taking, then I believe the Corrosion is a reflection of the "punishment" that awaits them if they are to stray from it. To quote Rose Hunter's MD event, "Ah... If, however, the course was derailed by your actions, you will be held accountable."
Hong Lu's Corrosion line here is the easier one to read - it's meant to be a reflection of his Family's reaction when they catch up to him after he runs away. Outright calling out that he ran away, calling him a fugitive, and the very clear threat of punishment.
For Faust it's actually a lot more interesting, because she clearly brings up the apple and the idea that whoever she caught is hiding it, rather than implying that whoever she caught is the one she was looking for. Perhaps because that's a reflection of how Faust will disobey the Gesselschaft. While Hong Lu disobeys his fate by running away from his Family, Faust would disobey her fate by hiding something from the Gesselschaft. A Golden Bough, perhaps? Instead of bringing one back to the Company, she could keep it hidden for herself, effectively disobeying her orders and the path she was put on. And an act like that would Anger Them Severely.
The thing you point out about the differences in how the Rose Hunter itself is depicted is fascinating. The one depicted in Faust's illustration seems like a direct parallel to how Faust has acted towards Sinners - she's been trapping them with Limbus Company, using their own wishes as bait and the contracts they sign as the snares.
But then there's Hong Lu's Rose Hunter, itself trapped by the snares and mangled to the point it seems there's only half of it clearly there. Half destroyed... I don't have an exact thought in my head regarding that, but you could definitely interpret it with a Two in One angle. How whoever is resonating with Rose Hunter is only Half There, and how that half is inherently trapped within themself, as the vines ensnaring it are also its own snares. Hong Lu is, in part, trapping himself, specifically Baoyu and Daiyu are unwillingly keeping each other trapped by the circumstance of their current situation.
Now. Let's talk Sin Resistances. I'm going to be using the names for the Floor Theme Packs based around the relevant Sin Weaknesses as a base here, since that's the closest thing we have to a canon confirmation of what the Resistances could mean.
The Gloom-weak floor is called Emotional Flood, the Sloth-weak floor is called Emotional Indolence, and the Wrath-weak floor is called Emotional Repression.
Both Lassos being Gloom weak could imply that whatever experiences Hong Lu and Faust have to recall to use it are heavily emotionally charged, making them susceptible to "Flooding" with negative feelings. It could be a reflection of the anxiety it causes both of them to think about - after all a major part of Rose Hunter is the punishment for not following one's path. Having to actively keep those consequences in mind to use the E.G.O would likely leave them shaken up and weak to such negative reminders.
Indolence means the avoidance of exertion or activity, and it's a close synonym to laziness. Hong Lu's Lasso being Sloth weak could reflect how emotionally numb recalling the relevant experiences leaves him. For him, following the path of the story is all about simply letting things happen and not reacting, just trying to reach the end. He's forced to become avoidant of emotional reactions through being too "lazy" to react. It's not like trying to say anything would change things for him, so why even bother trying? He'll reach the end one way or another. And so, being given even more reasons to not care and become more numb hurts all the more, ridding him of whatever little resolve he might have been holding onto.
As such, Faust's Lasso being weak to Wrath is made all the more interesting - it implies there's a level of intense emotion that the experiences bring out within her that she feels the need to repress and hide. This is different to Hong Lu's Sloth weakness, in that while Hong Lu is just straight up numb and passively avoiding feeling anything, Faust is very much feeling some sort of strong frustration that she has to actively silence. Thus it makes it far more painful to her when she's given more reasons to be annoyed - she's already struggling to keep it contained. Something about having to follow her path leaves her deeply frustrated in a way she feels she cannot let herself express, likely due to the consequences of complaining about it.
I also want to make a quick note on the Sin Resources needed to use the E.G.O, specifically the ones that differ between the two.
While both Lassos require Gluttony and Lust, Faust's Lasso requires Envy, while Hong Lu's requires Pride. This, I think, is actually reflected in their Awakening lines and thus the attitudes they have.
Faust sees following the path as something "correct", as something "right". Her own feelings and thoughts don't matter because the opinion of the story she's following is more important than hers. She's expressing Inferiority - aka, Envy.
On the other hand Hong Lu follows the path because it's something he himself believes to be the best option. He doesn't think there are better options, so he just ignores all the shit he has to go through along the way because in the end, he'll be fine. A very Pride thing to believe.
And yes, Hong Lu for whatever reason is notably smaller on the horse in the awakening sprite. No I don't know why either. It honestly might have been an oversight LMAO.
could the apple in Rose Hunter's MD art be Golden Apple, without it's lying sheen, as well? Or perhaps, Golden Apple is the one that couldn't/wouldn't actually grow a full body and move, instead of just rotting away (with gluttony from being too busy lying for survival)
Also, sort of hash collisions with Eris' Apple of Discord - Faust/runaway being a point of contention. Golden/False Apple is weak to sloth, Greg's Legerdemain is weak to wrath and sloth.
Also, from wikipedia: "Recurring themes depict a hero retrieving the golden apples hidden or stolen by a monstrous antagonist." - So Gesellschaft/Jia familiy OR Limbus Company. At the same time. Plus, is Rose Hunter in this context the 'hero' or 'abductor'?
the other EGO that are both victims and victimizers are all Hex Nails
Verg's flow might link to Heraclitus' "Panta rhei", that everything flows like a river, and their combined flows make up the flow of events, and one cannot step into the same one twice. That is to say, not a River itself but still sharing some of it's traits for purposes of explaining Rivers further (can you drink Verg's driving assistant? no)
Are you ok with being tagged in posts? I'm working on a fan ID of sorts and wanted to credit your contribution to lu-is-not-ok's sin analysis for the reasoning behind the resistances. If not, should I just mention the handle without tagging (like with a /)?
two in one theory... i am listening very intently if you ever feel up to share it!!
Alright, so this is gonna be... as close to an Abridged explanation of the theory as I can make, because if I went off on everything about it I would end up writing a whole dissertation or five hour video essay script on this shit.
There are gonna be three main sections to this post - Hong Lu's Daiyuisms, Hong Lu's Themes of Identity and how that connects to the concept of Two in One, and the Daiyu-Baoyu theory itself.
Strap in folks.
Hong Lu's Daiyuisms
If you know anything about my theories in the earlier days of Limbus, you might know that I'm one of the very few people who was convinced Hong Lu is actually Daiyu, due to some evidence I found personally compelling. This has not changed, as we've only gotten just as much extra evidence to this as we have to him being Baoyu. So let me just speedrun through some of these points.
The Fucking Jade Eye
Ok hear me out. This is maybe the least important piece of evidence but I can never stop thinking about it. Hong Lu's jade eye? Not actually fully blue! If you look closely on most of his sprites, you can see that he actually has sectoral heterochromia, meaning his jade eye is both blue and black.
Daiyu's name, quite literally, translates to blue-black jade.
Now, you could claim that this is merely meant to be an easter egg reference to her, but... is that really Project Moon's style? After all, when people speculated on Don Quixote being Sancho or a Bloodfiend partially based on her appearance all the way back since near launch, they turned out to be right.
Hong Lu's Father
As of now, there is only one instance of Hong Lu referencing his Father in Limbus, and it's a voiceline from his Base Identity:
Now, if you know anything about DOTRC, this should already be raising some flags, because if Hong Lu was just Baoyu, he would not fucking talk like that about his Father.
In the book, Baoyu is consistently shown to be afraid of his Father, for a good reason mind you, as he's his main abuser. Baoyu would not be looking forward to introducing his friends to that man.
Even if Hong Lu was trying to downplay the abuse he's recieved, this would still not fit his pattern of behavior. When topics that genuinely bother Hong Lu come up, such as what could make him distort or how rich people would enjoy gifts made of humans, he immediately pivots and tries to avoid the topic at all cost. He would not bring up his main abuser in such a lighthearted manner, he would avoid bringing him up at all cost.
However, there is a character in DOTRC which does in fact have a more positive relationship to her Father, and would likely be the one with an opinion such as that - Daiyu. Daiyu loves her Father, and when he dies she completely disappears from the story for a bit to attend his funeral. If there was anyone who would be excited to introduce their friends to their Father, it'd be Daiyu.
Lasso Hong Lu's Corrosion
I made a whole seperate post about this, but I might as well mention it here as well for the sake of completion. The design choices made for Hong Lu which are missing for Faust are very, very Daiyu-coded.
For one, not only does Hong Lu completely turn into a flower, unlike Faust, his horse also gains a flower in its mouth. For those whose knowledge of DOTRC is zero to none, Daiyu is a reincarnation of a Flower given sentience due to being watered by the Jade. I don't think I have to be the one to connect the dots between those two pieces of info for you.
The second is how the halters become a noose for Hong Lu. This, too, is a very Daiyu thing - Rose Hunter as an Abnormality represents the inability to escape one's fate, and Daiyu's fate is to die - the Jia Family arranging a marriage between Baoyu and Baochai leads to Daiyu falling deathly ill, which in itself could be considered a part of her repaying her Debt of Tears - the debt she swore to repay to the Jade/Baoyu when she was still a Flower.
The hilarity of the fact that this E.G.O came out in the same update as Hong Lu being called Baoyu in-story is not lost on me.
Rose Sign Abnormality Log
The third Log for Rose Sign ends in a very peculiar way.
There's multiple ways one can tie Hong Lu's odd reluctance to talk about flowers and the petals. One is the obvious "he's being reminded of Daiyu because she was a Flower" connection, but there's another one.
One of the most commonly potrayed images of Daiyu relates to a scene in DOTRC where she buries fallen flower petals, weeping for and lamenting the mortality of the flowers and herself. Hong Lu's reaction here to his fellow Sinners being reduced to nothing but petals upon Rose Sign's death feels like a notable parallel to Daiyu's flower burial scene.
Like literally everything about Kurokumo Hong Lu
The title for this is a bit of an exaggeration, but at the same time. I'm serious. Kurokumo Hong Lu is perhaps the most Daiyu Identity out of all the Hong Lu Identities we have, and the way he is designed to stand out among them further makes me go insane.
Kurokumo Hong Lu's most defining trait is his attitude - he often complains about his position and how authority treats him, though he doesn't really act out against them in any major way outside of making snarky or sarcastic remarks.
This is, frankly, an extremely Daiyu thing to do. Daiyu is one of the few characters who audibly complains about her treatment in the household. For example she complains about not being given as many opportunities to show off her poetry skills as her male peers are, and she recognises how, when all the girls in the family are given flowers, she's the last one to recieve them and thus is stripped of the ability to pick, being only given the leftovers.
Then there's the whole. Everything about Kurokumo Hong Lu's visual design. Because once you realize just how Daiyu-like the Identity is, you realize just how weird he is compared to other Hong Lu Identities. I mean just look how he compares to his other Identities.
He's the only Hong Lu Identity with a blue tint to his hair in the combat sprite rather than the usual purple.
He's the only Hong Lu Identity whose hairtie is a ribbon rather than a jade ring (Liu Hong Lu technically has the ribbon in his post-uptie art, but he doesn't have it in his combat sprite so I'm not counting him).
He's the only Hong Lu Identity to not be smiling in his combat sprites.
And he's the only Hong Lu Identity (and one of only four Identities in the game) whose Idle sprite has its body facing away from the opponent rather than facing towards them.
All of those combine to make him stand out like a sore thumb in a Hong Lu Identity lineup in a way that makes it feel intentional, especially since he's also the only Hong Lu Identity with that kind of notable attitude towards authority. Other Hong Lu Identities are either obedient, don't express any opinion, or just straight up are the authority.
The Baoyu reveal is framed in a very weird way
This is, admittedly, less of a Daiyuism and more of a not-Baoyuism, but I thought it'd be important to mention nonetheless.
There are a lot of things about Canto 7's reveal of Hong Lu's name being Baoyu that are very strange, especially compared to how the Canto frames Don Quixote's own reveal of actually being Sancho.
For one, the timing itself - why is such an important piece of info being revealed so early? Again, compare to Donqui - she was revealed to be a Bloodfiend in the Intervallo right before Canto 7, and the Sancho reveal only came in the second half of the Canto.
For two, the framing - Donqui's reveals are treated as what they are, Major Reveals. The Baoyu reveal on the other hand happens in a single off-handed line, with nobody reacting to it in any way. Neither Hong Lu nor the other Sinners seem to hear it after all.
And mind you, it's not like Limbus is opposed to giving us important information in off-handed lines - far from it in fact. Project Moon loves shoving little bits of foreshadowing and reveals you don't realize are reveals until way later in these kinds of off-handed lines. But the way those lines are treated is still very different to how the Baoyu reveal is treated.
Usually, when there's foreshadowing in off-handed lines, it's usually either vague enough to be something a character could say regardless of context (see Yi Sang getting hung up on the Sedatives bit in Canto 2 or Ishmael's comment about Syndicates pretending to be Families foreshadowing her own history with the Middle via Queequeg) or something that is in the middle of a scene that distracts from what is actually being said (like Hong Lu's distortion foreshadowing being in the middle of an important infodump or most of everything in Canto 2 being surrounded by a comedic tone).
None of this is present for the Baoyu reveal. There's nothing to distract you from this information, as the scene is already focused on discussing Hong Lu, meaning you're already likely to be paying attention to what is being said about him. There's also no vagueness about it, there's no way you can brush it off since not only are Wei and Xichun newly introduced characters, but it's a whole ass clearcut namedrop.
The only way I can justify that reveal being there in the form it takes is that it in itself is the distraction. Think about it. Didn't I point it out earlier that this reveal came in the same update as the E.G.O with an extremely Daiyu-coded corrosion design? Wouldn't it make sense for that reveal to be there to lower your guard, make you think you resolved that mystery, only to later on reveal it wasn't the whole story after all?
Hong Lu's Themes of Identity
So this section is a bit more vague than the Daiyuism section, because Hong Lu is the type of guy to just Say Shit all the time. It's basically just. Anything that I find relevant to the idea of Hong Lu's Identity being more complex than him just being a random guy using a pseudonym, with some (but maybe not all) of them directly tying to the idea of Two in One.
"Which one is the real you?"
There are currently two seperate scenes where Hong Lu muses on the idea of someone's identity being in some way vague or obscured.
Is Dante the person or the clock? Is the dreamer the one in the dream or the one who wakes from it? Which you is the real you? Does it even matter if that you will flutter away in the end?
This idea of there being one true self. That even if there are two, there is only one of them that is actually you. Curious, right?
Face-changing dance
During the Canto 2 scene where everyone gives their reasons for whether or not they'd be a good pick for being the one to dance, Hong Lu says this.
Bian lian is a kind of dance literally translated as "face-changing". It involves rapid changes between various masks and make-up to represent different emotions or characters.
Now, it's no secret that Hong Lu is a great actor, as we see in Canto 4, and Canto 7 shows how the comparison to theatre and actors can be used to symbolize one's performance of identity, as it does for Sancho and her Don Quixote persona.
Mind you, this reveal comes in the same scene as Sinclair's dance invoking the image of a bonfire burning all through the night according to the Mariachis, a clear foreshadowing to Canto 3 and the Literal burning down of Sinclair's home.
Hong Lu knowing bian lian could be further foreshadowing to his own skills in deception, and how he too is a sort of actor, not unlike Don Quixote. On the other hand however, it could also be a more literal foreshadowing, that he (Baoyu) Quite Literally changed his face. We won't know until Canto 8, but it is an option you know.
The HamHamPangPang dish(es)
For those who don't know, here is a list of the Sinner-themed dishes that were available at HamHamPangPang.
Now, chances are, not all of them have deep meanings. I don't think there's much of a deep meaning to Heathcliff and Ishmael's dishes, I think PJM just legit don't know much about British/American cuisine so they just picked something recogniseable.
However, not all of them are meaningless picks either. Ryoshu, likely a mother, has a meal literally called "parent-and-child donburi". Don Quixote, a Bloodfiend, has a garlic-based dish. These were clearly done on purpose.
So, what does it say that Hong Lu's dish is actually two different dishes? That he's the only one whose dish is two different dishes? And it's not like the two are in some way inherently connected, since they're of completely different cuisines. Japchae is a Korean dish, not Chinese like the Mandarin rolls.
And just in case you weren't convinced that Hong Lu's choice of dishes is purposeful - another name for Mandarin rolls is flower buns, and one of the special occasions japchae is commonly served for is weddings. If you had read through the Daiyuisms section and somehow have no idea what the significance of that is, I don't know what to tell you.
The Daiyu-Baoyu Theory (finally)
So. I gave some evidence for why I think Hong Lu could still be Daiyu despite being revealed as Baoyu. I gave some evidence for why I think Hong Lu could be a Two in One deal, or that at the very least there's something more complex going on with his identity. But let's discuss the theory itself, how it would recontextualize certain things, and why I think it's an extremely fitting an thematically resonant direction for Hong Lu's Canto to go in.
The Theory
Here's what I speculate is going on.
Daiyu, just like in DOTRC, is someone who was taken in into the Jia Household rather than born in it, and who strongly connected with Baoyu upon meeting him. The two would end up forming a bond strong enough that they would be willing to die for one another (or, if they're in particularly argumentative moods, to kill themselves just to force the other to have to live a long life grieving over them - this is an actual argument they have in DOTRC and I pray to god this is adapted into Limbus because it's too fucking funny).
At some point, Baoyu either dies or is brought to near death, likely through the same circumstances as in DOTRC - being beaten by his Father. To save him, his memories and consciousness would be transferred to his eye, a process not dissimilar to the one Xichun brings up in Canto 7, and implanted into Daiyu's body, causing them to become a vessel for Baoyu. This would be how Hong Lu as he is now is created.
All of the above is the main basis for this theory. Everything else that I might speculate about, such as the exact nature of the two's relationship, Daiyu's more exact background and personality, how their pre-reincarnation lives could be adapted - all of those are things that are purely speculative and ones that I don't really expect to be actually fulfilled. The only bits that I am sure are likely to be true is what I laid out above.
So... what does it all mean for the future? I'm glad you asked!
The Recontextualization
Here's a collection of just a couple of things that Hong Lu has said or is depicted as that would be heavily recontextualized if this theory ends up being true.
Hong Lu surviving despite claiming he didn't fight back when his siblings first tried to kill him: With the context that he used to be two seperate people, the answer to how he survived is made very simple. Baoyu is the one who wasn't fighting back. Daiyu, however, could have still protected him in turn.
The red ribbon on Hong Lu's weapon: There is only one other Sinner who has a similar decoration on their weapon - Ryoshu, who also has a red ribbon on her sword, which could be easily connected to Yuzuki and her death. With the context of Hong Lu being Baoyu occupying Daiyu's body and thus effectively rendering their self non-existent, the red ribbon could be a parallel symbol - a symbol of Daiyu and their 'death'.
How Hong Lu treats his weapon in his base E.G.O: The way Hong Lu holds his weapon in the illustration is more like he's cradling another person. This could be a representation of how he feels about Daiyu's situation. Likewise, in the attack animation, he's not really attacking with the weapon itself, is he? He's simply using it to direct a ribbon (which in itself is missing in the illustration), the part that is actually the attack. If the weapon in the base E.G.O represents Daiyu, this could be a parallel to how Baoyu feels like he's merely directing Daiyu's body to attack, rather than being the one actually attacking.
The duality of Hong Lu IDs: There is a notable pattern among Hong Lu IDs, and that is the focus on his attitude to violence. When he's in a situation where he's obedient towards his Family, he's either uninterested in violence, bored of it, or otherwise given no other choice but to use it as a reprieve from boredom. However, when he's in a situation where he's disconnected from his Family or otherwise questioning the status quo, he's shown to not only be much more aggressive and violent, but to outright enjoy it. With the context of Hong Lu being composed of two people, this duality could represent each of his components - the obedient and violence-averse being more Baoyu-like, while the questioning and violence-favoring being more Daiyu-like.
So, there's a bunch of stuff that would be given new meaning under the premise of this theory being true. But now, what about the future? What would this theory mean for the themes and ending of Canto 8?
The Resolution
I believe this is how the Daiyu-Baoyu theory will affect Canto 8.
At some point, whether before or during the Canto, it will be revealed that Hong Lu is both Daiyu and Baoyu. There will be an attempt to seperate the two, perhaps to implant Baoyu into a more fitting, more Jia Family-approved Vessel. Perhaps because the 'arranged marriage' from DOTRC could be adapted into something more... let's say Fear and Hunger kind of marriage rather than traditional marriage.
This will leave Hong Lu to be returned to their state as Daiyu, who will be revealed to be a very different person to what the Sinners knew Hong Lu as. There is a non-zero chance that Daiyu will be unable to hear Dante or be revived by them due to the one who signed the contract being Baoyu, and so they could end up acting as an uncontrollable ally unit not unlike Xichun in Canto 7.
The climax would then be Daiyu and Baoyu reuniting and being unwilling to part with each other again, even for the sake of returning to being the fake persona that is Hong Lu, leading to a potential duo boss fight/distortion boss fight/duo distortion boss fight.
The ending would be the two of them deciding to embrace their new identity as Hong Lu and truly becoming one, discarding their pasts and the selves that had been forced on them by the Jia Family. This ending would have a twofold meaning regarding how it connects to the DOTRC adaptation.
One - it would be a direct parallel to the ending of DOTRC where Baoyu leaves to become a monk. By becoming Hong Lu and discaring his previous identities, he'd be leaving behind the earthly attachments inherent to being Baoyu and Daiyu and become spiritually whole.
Two - it would be a reflection of the major theme of DOTRC, that being "Truth becomes fiction when the fiction's true. Real becomes not-real when the unreal's real." Hong Lu, as a person, is a 'fake' persona used by the 'real' Baoyu and Daiyu. However, by discarding those two identities and deciding to just be Hong Lu, the fiction of his existence becomes the truth, while his former real selves become not real.
Conclusion?
I could honestly just keep going with this post, but I think I'm going to stop myself here before I'm forced to find out what tumblr's character limit on posts is. Believe me, I was trying to be brief, and still this post is. This fucking long.
I hope this explains why this theory has been the subject of my brainrot for the past however long, and why I feel like it's surprisingly plausible despite being as deranged as it is.
Godspeed and godbless, I have classes tomorrow and I'm spending my time on this.
「Ranpo, Mushi, Seishi」 – Tales from the Burgeoning World of Japanese Mystery
After re-reading Bungou Stray Dogs and with better understanding of the history behind the figures of Japanese Literature, I find myself falling further in love with the Perfect Crime Arc of the BSD Manga.
In a span of three chapters, Mushitarou went from an unknown to one of my favorite mystery authors out there. An outcast of the detective novel world often disregarded due to his pedantic and frankly bizarre way of writing his stories.
Further reading about his life made me realize that this arc is a complete recreation of a section of Mushitarou's life, the other authors he interacted within his short career and an everlasting impact between giants of the Early-Showa Detective Novel scene. It is shocking how Asagiri and Harukawa conceals and works with the details of the story so well, blending in so many different parts of his life into the manga.
The Lineup
To get a better feel of who the three main figures are in this story, I must first introduce the three main authors of this story.
Edogawa Ranpo (江戸川乱歩, 1894 –1965) was a detective novelist who made a name with his many detective novels which made him a key part of the mystery novel landscape even up to the modern day. He is most well known for creating the character of Akechi Kogorou who first appeared in The Murder on D Hill (D坂の殺人事件) and would later star in many of his novels.
Oguri Mushitarou (小栗虫太郎, 1901 - 1946) was a detective novelist who was known for his bizarre writing style. His use of difficult kanji along with furigana guides for many of his stories makes his works some of the most difficult works to read in Japanese. His most well known work is The Black Death Mansion Murders (黒死館殺人事件) along with the detective Horimizu Rintarou.
Yokomizo Seishi (横溝正史, 1902 - 1981) was a detective novelist who was a master of the 'honkaku' mystery genre. His work The Honjin Murders (本陣殺人事件) and detective Kosuke Kindaichi continue to be a staple of modern Japanese pop culture.
The Making of a Genre
Misery (無惨) by Kuroiwa Ruikou (黒岩涙香) is oft regarded as the first Japanese mystery novels which brought the genre into the public consciousness. A simple murder mystery tale of gambling seemingly gone awry. From this spark then came numerous authors such as Morishita Uson (森下雨村), Ooshita Udaru (大下宇陀児), Hamao Shirou (濱尾四郎) and an up and coming author named Edogawa Ranpo.
Ranpo made a name for himself with the publication of The Two-Sen Copper Coin (二銭銅貨) in 1923 which made him the undisputed 'king' of Japanese mystery novels. With this influential position, Ranpo's comments often brought attention to many other authors working withing the genre. Along with this, magazines geared towards younger readers such as Shin Seinen began to become popular as the youth of Japan became enthralled with tales of mystery and adventure.
The Perfect Crime — The Story and the Arc
Out of all of the arcs in Bungo Stray Dogs, I feel like the Perfect Crime Arc is one that nails the heart of Bungou Media at best; a transformative work about authors and their works, how they treated one another and how they stand in the world of literature. Many of the characters in BSD are very much based on their real-life counterparts such as Dazai and Ooba Youzou of No Longer Human (人間失格) and/or The Flowers of Buffoonery (道化の華) fame. Ranpo and Mushitarou both are great representations of their works and style but more importantly, their relationship tells of their time as mystery novelists.
While Ranpo continues to enjoy mainstream fame not only within but outside Japan as well, Mushitarou is often relegated to the less-mainstream, some would call him your 'favorite's favorite'. But there's a big reason as to why Mushitarou's so much less well-known in the west and it boils down to his writing style. An "absurd" use of furigana, stretching the limits of the Japanese language with an example below from his magnum opus, The Black Death Mansion Murder Case:
Heavy and difficult kanji along with the furigana of various foreign languages, a writing style derided by critics such as Sakaguchi Ango who called it as 'imitating the worst aspects of S. S. van Dine'. This quirk would also be adapted into the Bungou Stray Dogs manga as some of Mushitarou's dialogue is written the way the real-life Mushitarou's writing style
Mushitarou's connection with Dostoevsky may have also been derived further by the story of The Perfect Crime (完全犯罪) which sees Russian characters such as Vasily Zharov who was the leading character of the story.
The story behind the publication of Mushitarou's The Perfect Crime is the main inspiration behind the story of the Perfect Crime arc.
In Spring 1933 Oguri Mushitarou, then a young and new author, submitted a 600-page mystery novel script to Kouga Saburou (甲賀三郎). After reading through it, Saburou dismissed the script saying that it was far too long; recommending Mushitarou to submit something shorter. With this recommendation in mind, Mushitarou submitted the first draft of The Perfect Crime to Saburou which impressed his peer greatly. Saburou however, still felt as if it'd be something difficult to pitch to publishers and even considered enlisting the help of Edogawa Ranpo to get it published.
Saburou then went on and decided to send the draft to then editor of the Shin Seinen magazine, novelist Mizutani Jun (水谷準) who took a quick look and then dismissed the work entirely, putting it to his desk drawer and quickly forgetting it. Shin Seinen was at this point a hub for popular literature for young boys with detective and adventure novels galore with authors such as Yumeno Kyuusaku (夢野久作), Unno Juuza (海野十三) and even Kouga Saburou himself publishing their works in the magazine. Starting from its New Year 1933 issue, they planned to include at least a 100-page one-shot story from various authors.
Yokomizo Seishi, who was at this point one of Shin Seinen's star writers, got sick with hemoptysis which lead to the cancellation of one of his stories which was to be published in the July 1933 issue of the Magazine. With this, the July issue had lost its main story; that is until Mizutani Jun, who was in a scramble to find a replacement, remembered the manuscript which Mushitarou had sent in. He quickly realized that the script was about the length needed to cover for the issue and quickly read over the work. Mizutani then also assured Yokomizo that he should take a rest instead rather than forcing himself to write.
The following is the editor's note written by Mizutani for the publication of the story:
The 100-page "The Perfect Crime" was written by a complete newcomer. This month's edition was supposed to be written by Yokomizo Seishi, but the author suddenly became ill and was unable to write, so this work was substituted for him. As you will see upon reading it, this work is a truly excellent work of detective fiction. Readers may like or dislike the setting or the descriptions, but I hope you will read it to the very last line and congratulate this newcomer on his future prospects.
The Perfect Crime was indeed Mushitarou's debut work, its publication taking center stage and substituting the work of one of the most popular mystery novelists of the era. The fact that the work was deemed "worthy" to substitute Yokomizo's work itself is already high praise.
Yokomizo then also commented with the following after reading the story written by Mushitarou:
"Who could have ever found such a powerful pinch hitter*? Even if I had been in good health, I was not confident that I could write a masterpiece as fascinating as 'The Perfect Crime.'"
*A Pinch Hitter is a substitute batter in baseball.
This publication marked the beginning of Mushitarou's friendship with Yokomizo. The two of them met in a bar where Mushitarou said that "Because of your illness, I was able to debut much faster." To which Yokomizo responded with "Don't be silly, you would have debuted regardless whether I was sick or not." Mushitarou then continued saying "That may be true, but regardless the opportunity came quicker because of your illness." Yokomizo then promised, "All right then, next time something happens to you, I'll be sure to cover for you."
The two would be separated for most of the war-time, with them writing letters back and forth about detective novels while continuing to publish works as Yokomizo fled to Okayama due to the outbreak of World War II. Despite Yokomizo ever hardly sending any correspondence during this period, he continued to reply to letters sent by Mushitarou. In early spring 1946, Yokomizo received a letter from Mushitarou saying that he was going to fully devote himself to writing full-fledged novels which Yokomizo agreed with.
After the war had ended, Yokomizo went back to the literary world where he would discover that Mushitarou had passed away suddenly due to Methyl poisoning in a telegram and Unno Juuza would later explain to him the full extent of Mushitarou's untimely death. This death shook Yokomizo and he was unable to do anything for the next few days, especially due to the letter sent by Mushitarou, clearly passionate about his coming works.
Due to Mushitarou's sudden death, Yamazaki Tetsuya (山崎徹也) who was the editor-in-chief of the magazine Rock needed someone to replace Mushitarou's work for the upcoming issue. Yokomizo, who was in the middle of serialization of "The Honjin Murders" in the magazine Houseki decided to 'cover' for Mushitarou and published "The Butterfly Murders" in the magazine.
"I was no match for you"
Edogawa Ranpo at this time as the mystery novelist of the time. Ranpo at this point had met and known many other mystery novelists from Ookura Teruko and once, even met up with Oguri Mushitarou as he wrote down in 40 Years of Detective Novels (探偵小説四十年)
According to Ranpo, the two of them met once in 1946 and in this conversation Mushitarou said to Ranpo, "Edogawa-san, it seems at the end I was no match for you." to which Ranpo then replied, "Not at all, you're a better writer than I am." Which was of course replicated at the end of the arc.
The Characterification of Oguri Mushitarou
In her paper 'No longer Dazai : the re-authoring and "character-ification" of literary celebrity in contemporary Japanese popular culture', Jaylene Laturnas describes the process of Characterification (キャラクター化) as follows:
Character-ification refers to the act of turning anything from living beings to inanimate objects and abstract concepts into characters via anthropomorphism and personification (gijinka) or caricature (deforume).
Bungou Stray Dogs of course, is of course, a series that takes these authors and characterizies them in the gijinka form as stated by Asagiri himself in a 2014 interview. While most characters in Bungou Stray Dogs are 'gijinka' of their works and characters, Mushitarou occupies an interesting space as his actions and characterizations leans heavier towards the real author and the events within his short literary career. There's a clear degree of difference between how Mushi is portrayed in the series in comparison to his other fellow authors as it leans so much closer to real-events than any other author has been depicted in the series (arguably, Kunikida's turbulent relationship with Sasaki Nobuko may be the closest thing but enough creative liberties have been taken to completely differentiate the real person and the fictional character). Even the ending to the arc with Ranpo's deduction of what actually happened is in reference to a real event between the two-real life authors. It makes me want more of this rather than the arc following these 3 chapters.
The depiction of Mushitarou's friendship with the already-dead-Yokomizo in the series is just excellent, I do think a core tenet of their real-life friendship is their willingness to do anything for one another, stemming from that fateful meeting through their debut. It makes sense how in the series that this willingness is taken to the very extreme. Real-life Yokomizo's illness and BSD Yokomizo's illness parallels one another in the sense that it both brought Mushitarou into the limelight, a 'debut' for both real-life Mushi into the literary world and a 'debut' for Mushi the character in Bungou Stray Dogs. His ability being named after his debut novel is also just like the cherry on top, every layer just perfectly slotting in so well.
To examine the characters' real-life and re-contextualize it in such a way that it fits the Bungou Stray Dogs framework, I honestly would like more of this going forward and I can only hope it does happen.
Afterword
I am so so very sorry this article took a while to finish, many sources are only in Japanese and for many of them I had to verify it. Along with graduating, job-hunting and also visiting Japan earlier this year, I was too busy and I overshot when I was going to finish this.
I can't help it though, I really do love Mushishi and his silly antics and his works have somewhat inspired me to write again too. I still plan on doing deep dives like these though I want to try and write about authors not in BSD.
Laturnas, Jaylene "No longer Dazai : the re-authoring and "character-ification" of literary celebrity in contemporary Japanese popular culture" (2023) UBC
You know what? Im going to vent about how annoyed I am abt bsd atm and put it in the tags bcuz I also want to debate it. I enjoy bsd but I am struggling to understand what exactly Asagiri is trying to do here esp when this arc is so long that the arc itself has mini arcs in it.
If anyone reads this I would love, LOVE to discuss this because I am yanking my hair in frusteration
I am putting it under a cut so that ppl who dont want to see criticism abt bsd dont have to see it
Am i being an asshole? Yes
Am i going to warn ppl before hand and remind them that they can curate their internet experience by simply not reading something that is going to criticize something they love? And the block button exists for a reason???????Also yes
That being said i dont often go off about things i dont like about media i enjoy because well i understand everything i like has pros and cons
Also i still read bsd bcuz there r other things i DO like about it
Anywayssss
The thing that is bothering me about bsd is that I dont think I can tell what any character is doing EVER. Perhaps thats just my taste and I like having some idea of whats going to happen.
The characters arcs are excellent, their actions make sense for the personalities that they have yes.
The problem i do have w bsd is that the characters are apparently constantly always somehow predicting whats going on
How in the goddamn world do you expect me to believe that Fyodor let Dazai see him kill someone through touch so that Dazai would come up w a plan like Mersault? Fyodor didn’t expect Dazai to catch him at the end of the whole virus thing so like how is that enough time for him to find a way to kill that guard by just touching his hand? Why do that unless you planned the Mersault fake death from the start?
I forget but didn’t the Hunting Dogs get Mushitaro to bring up Dazai’s crimes to get Dazai into Mersault? Was this all to get Dazai away from the agency? Extremely likely but that tells me Fyodor planned to fake his death from the star(again) WHICH IN TURN MEANS HE HAD TO HAVE FKING KNOWN SO MUCH AHEAD OF TIME which only makes sense if he had access to some type of future telling ability because some characters actions WERE random eg: below
If Gogol randomly decided to break Fyodor out of Mersault with his race against death game, how can Fyodor expect to be killed by a vampire to become Bram??? How does this make sense if he did not know that Gogol would plan this at all?
There is the panel of Fyodor fallin through the Mersault room correctly as he says its time to escape so maybe he knew Gogol would that? HOW if Gogol just came up with that plan without any of Fyodor’s input?? Alright then maybe he was acting so Dazai won’t catch on but even then how was he expecting to die so that he can become Bram?? What was his alternate plan?
Alright maybe he simply predicted Gogol to do that which I think is a bit sad for Gogol since I think his whole character arc is about how he doesn’t want to be shackled by anything and I would argue being manipulated by someone is a shackle
Criticism 2: the fact absolutely no one of importance has died in bsd manga except for in the light novels(i am including Odasaku in this) please PLEASE correct me if I missed a death
Im not counting Fukuchi as dead because jury’s still out on that given the whole thing w God!Fukuchi/Amenogozen
Esp as we have Dead Apple where whats his names ability outlived him and i think also in 55 minutes
Because well, how do you expect me to take any of the stakes in this manga seriously if no one of name dies ever, I would not have this issue if death wasnt faked out as many times as it has
Maybe Bram will actually stay dead but I doubt it
The fact Kunikida was killed this chapter just tells me that yet again, death is not a serious consequence in this manga. Esp as the book has not been used yet. Even fking HP Lovecraft is alive ffs.
If Kunikida stays dead I will HAPPILY eat my words and state that Asagiri is a master writer for fooling my reading of bsd that well.( i am obviously not saying only my interpretation of bsd is correct so pls dont come at me)
Criticism 3: why didn’t Dazai literally just kill off Fyodor w Chuuya once they got Sigma to get the info from Fyodor
I understand thats a much more author did that because thats what the writing needed and characters are only as intelligent as the story needs so … fineeeee thats on me
Criticism 4: the whole Amenogozen thing about how the war isn’t real
How can Fyodor fake the sign on the wall unless he knew what sign meant world ending to Fukuchi???
Not sure if this is a criticism but if Chuuya was sent by Mori…how did Fyodor expect him to show up? Unless Fyodor and Mori discussed that earlier together in which case Mori is doing an excellent job at pretending like he’s not inleague with Fyodor
This plan of Fyodor’s to become Bram is just so batshit insane and so reliant on people doing random things at the right time eg: Gogol and the death game, Chuuya not being used to kill Fyodor in any form, Sigma not waking up in time to warn the agency, Dazai not fking shooting Fyodor w a gun
Imagine if Gogol’s poison succeeded then well ig Fyodor would just stay in his body since he injected the poison in his own veins which hey doesn’t that mean there was no risk of Fyodor dying in that game? I am likely wrong but it is kinda funny
Unrelated but wow tumblr does NOT want to make writing this on mobile easy bruh
I think the reason I’m so frusterated with this is that bsd is so unpredictable that for me it feels like its going beyond the suspension of disbelief i have
Its breaking the intelligence scale that they set with Fyodor, Dazai and Ranpo that it feels too much to believe
My other issue is I dont know what the whole long term thing w BSD is, and I am a bit tired of that. That might be my personal taste where I like to know what kind of ending or long term things I hope to see in a series but this is a bit too absured for me which might be the point
If anyone reads this entire nonsensical essay you have my respect
TL;DR plans are useless but planning is indespensable (Eisenhower)
i think you're bedazzled by the smoke and mirrors characters are pulling on each other.
Dostoy and deathtouch: now we know dostoy gets part of his host's ability. If you were in his shoes, why wouldn't you fuck around with it for maximum confusion? He is an international terrorist, and so benefits for multiple conflicting reports about what he can do. As for deathtouch thing: he was already using the thing in his introduction, so why not have more 'ammo' on hand?
+ i suspect it's NOT how Dazai explains it (having ridicious control over Hawthorne's ablity Because Reasons), but because his then-host had roughly that ability.
Besides, way back when speculation about dostoy's plot armor churned, there were people going "bailed out by yet-unknown party", so that's always on the table.
He planned to die in Meursault, but Nikolai was a suprise - without him, Yokohama Airport Battlefield crew would eventually reach Bram (as set up by Fukuchi as planned by Dostoy), who is already pretty depressed and so would be willing to divulge pulling out Soluz Levni would kill him. How does he know about this? Most likely Fukuchi (of HD) told him way back he was impaled upon it, i.e. keikaku goes brrr. As additional incentive, Bram does mention not wanting to create vampires - so if that's not persuasive feel free to season with psychological torture to taste.
Dostoy pulled Mushitarou out of Seventh Agency's cell. Because Ango set it up, HG had no knowledge of it. As for "why not just shoot [Dazai]"? The only answer that makes sense IMO is "because he's a terrible simp". How did he know Mushi's the one responsible? this is the part where being Old As Fuck + Rats (spies) in every corner + character established as hackerman more or less covers it. Once more, this isn't something that requires some specific goal in mind - you'd kind of want to keep a database of evidence-destroying ability users (both the govt and dostoy), and Seventh Agency has to be keeping it's records of which user is suppressing what, if only for blackmail purposes.
>how can Fyodor expect to be killed by a vampire to become Bram??? How does this make sense if he did not know that Gogol would plan this at all?
he didn't. As Dazai put it: "this is why he was so desperate - if he died by poison it wouldn't work". So! From Dostoy's perspective Meursault was already infested by vampires. Fukuchi was controlling them the entire time. This part of the plan was most likely presented to Fukuchi as "and then you take over Meursault so i can have tea and give orders to the outside so that everything will go smoothly" - to prompt him to go hell naw, guaranteeing Fukuchi will take over Meursault with vampires, to keep an eye on him/make sure to vamp any underlings that might already be planted there.
But with Nikolai, this becomes:
- step 1: win (naturally)
- step 2: grab the antidote (and it is the antidote because if Nikolai wanted him dead he 1) done so already 2) wouldn't have done so by proxy to prove Dostoy is just victim 617) and leave (cold and wet and whiny lel)
- step 3: inject the antidote and wait for Bram to assume direct control -> keikaku flows back to the main plot (also: this always synces him to events in Yokohama. No matter what, he will be yeeted to the part where anyone from the agency is talking to Bram, so Soluz Levni should be nearby*). If that doesn't happen during the ride, then simply find another vamp. He had plenty of time to research Dracula.
- step 4: ???
- step 5: JACKPOT
alright, enough squeeing.
re: baying for blood: i wanted to spring this vid on BSD fandom, congratulations!
Two extracts from a fascinating interview with celebrated and controversial author Harlan Ellison. In these extracts noted journalist Mavis
but also, frame flip: it's well established by this point that the manga's gimmick is that noone relevant dies, ever. Why this bothers you? Why there have to be stakes, beyond mere enablers for character interaction and growth (and fanfics, and getting people to read IS Asagiri's agenda…)? Aren't you curious what side effects of surviving would the characters have, if they survived?
Also: outside of full reality rewrite, the global stance on ability users will change for the worse. With reality rewrite you still have everyone remembering what they did do during The NotApocalypse(tm) which at the very least will lead to revealing existence of ability users to the general populace.
re: criticism 3: there has been an entire hivemind of fangirls percolating all the cherry-picked intel other characters were not privy to.
re: critisism 4: you got me there, starting from "wdym Fukuchi has a sign for 'there will be a war in twenty(?) years'".
….the thing is, technically each time Fukuchi sees the sign and passes it to the past, the timeline in which he did so ultimately ceases to be, as the main-plot-Fukuchi immediately goes to save the world. In other words, there are three states here: initial timeline, in which Dostoyevsky, through any and all means (lazy answer: raw persuation/whatever he did to Goncharov/YOLO with page and time travel) makes Fukuchi write a mark in the past using Amenogozen.
So how does the sword work into this? ch87p23 suggests Fukuchi had the sword throughout the war. To make it easy on planning and to foreshadow possible future revelations, both Sigma and Tokoyami island could have been created by Dostoy using a different page, earlier in time. Why the meatgrinder island? to pull gacha for traumatized war vets + make ability users look like a threat to the public. And he got Fukuchi, with a very OP combo of his own and desperate need for hope and to (possibly) reframe his experiences as necessary to shape him into someone who will do what is needed to prevent even greater evils for all future generations and blah blah blah
(there is even an advantage to taking the blame - everyone wants Dostoy dead which while inconvinient would also make fighting Fukumon very hard on morale)
That is the boring version.
The deranged version - or rather, yolo with time travel - is that Sigma was written on this page, meaning: he assisted in stealing the page from which he would be written into. Given that page stops working only for parts that paradox themselves out of it's text (i.e. only 40% of the police force listened to Ranpo, instead of being an all-or-nothing affair), it would mean he keeps existing at least until the loop loses the last opportunity to close itself. This is how Dostoy could get to use Sigma before DoA arc itself (the bit with a church in the middle of a desert NOT being set in roughly-now, but in the past, as a bamboozle from Asagiri). Then it's just the matter of spotting a circumstance where Fukuchi would ask something predictable of Sigma. Then all they would need is a brush at the same time Sigma answers his question (if Sigma ends up being suspicious they're just going to detain him cause intel ability good), presumably after some light mentalism (read: a full-blown Production) for Fukuchi to form a coherent design in his head, so to speak. After that point, Dostoy through Sigma should have enough knowledge to make a sufficently educated guess for it to work.
re: poison injection: i still do not get why he didn't just close & flood the corridor soukoku was in, just to be sure/because why not. I guess this is our evidence for Dostoy being sufficently cocksure to play along. Besides, what other moves he had? Dazai is right there.
re: long-term BSD: Fyodor -> Christie -> book endgame? like, does the big picture have to be forseeable to be amusing?
*while he should have the momentum to find it out of sheer element of surprise, THIS is the real #improvise
It's not r*pe, it's rape. It's not su*cide, it's suicide. Not unalive, dead. The backbone needs to be reintroduced en masse because softening the blow of these concepts with advertising language does absolutely nothing but allow people unaffected by them to feel not even a sting of what they can do, prompting inaction.
And it's been proven that on certain websites, you don't even face a repercussion for using the words as they are. People just started censoring themselves because they feared the potential lack of views and likes and followers which is so nasty itself.
it's not censorship per se, it's not a lack of backbone either, it's born out of an attempt to bypass the censorship, the backbone to speak about the things they don't want you to speak about,...
it's like cockney rhyming slang... a way to talk openly about whatever the fuck you want, even in front of the "cops"
it's a refusal to be silent
because it's born out of an environment that would literally silence you should you say the actual words
So instead, they found new words.
it's not about views or likes or followers, it's being told "you can't talk about death" and saying "fuck you, I'll talk about unaliving if I want to, it's an important conversation"
Getting around censorship by censoring yourself isn't really the way. We need to keep saying death and suicide and rape even if we get kicked off of platforms. The conversation we're having right now is an important conversation. We can't self-censor to obey censorship and pretend that's getting around censorship.
So the way to avoid being censored is to be kicked off the platform Instead of finding ways to be able to still speak about the actual subjects?
You're arguing that the words death and suicide and rape are more important than still speaking about death, and about suicide, and about rape?
That it's more important to hold on to the words themselves rather than the conversation?
Because the intent of the censorship is to stop us talking about these things.
The point isn't the precise words, they're trying to remove the topic, the conversation, and switching out the words is refusing to allow them to remove the topic, the conversation.
Why not use these opportunities to keep moving the actual convo to fediverse/social media of your choice?
For instance, reddit became noticably trashier (content-wise) after blackouts over killing the only real way to use it on mobile. And this naturally affects all users. For n=1 (that's me!), this correlates with less use. And guess what - most subreddits just. have a discord link. in their sidebar.
Instead of playing nice (driving/retaining engagement to their site for monetizing data harvesting), how does sabotaging a hostile website to death sound?
It sounds great in theory.
Honestly would love to see literally everyone leave these unnecessarily censored platforms that frequently fail to protect people from harm and sometimes even take part in inflicting it f.ex. by kicking/banning the victims of prejudice while refusing the do anything about full on neonazi users.
The problem ofc is that these are unfortunately sometimes the only places to reach people who don't know about the fediverse/social media of your choice.
Especially younger users who aren't yet tech savvy enough to know about alternatives or where to find them.
Finding ways to have difficult, complicated, and heavy conversations in those spaces, as well as creative ways to teach them how to find better communities is worthwhile.
Can't be leaving the youngins to rot in the pit can we?
and how did i even learn of tildes/fedi to begin with? reddit.
Links upon links to "how to set up mastodon" "how to join tildes".
here's the thing: whole subreddits are now outright dead, with only antique/nothingburger posts and a link to discord. local chapter of 4chan* has a survey every New Years. It's userbase shrinks and grows old. As local digg went from "nonobviously rightwing nutjob leaning" to "rightwing nutjob turf", people visibly migrated to national subreddit (causing an influx of whiny posts). This caused this not-digg's frontpage to go from "there is something interesting" to "all trash all the time". Hell, afaik The 4chan was better until janitor positions were taken over by neonazis, tho all i remember is dropping by and going "wow even the insults/conspiracies got shittier".
Like, i am pretty sure /a/ had real threads instead of a torrent of
m e d i o c r i t y. You'd expect tiddies but not even that
You're seeing the point i'm getting to, right? Creativity (and thus, quality content to jump ship for) is fundamentally** left-leaning. When enmuskittification of twitter happened, where did people go to? Tumblr. Why? because SM reposts. The Good Stuff had tumblr structure -> tumblr it is.
In other words, it's not even needed to proselytize. The moment the user wants to leave the cesspool, they will, taking literally the first train link out. Do you know anyone who is hanging around those 9gag meme aggregator sites? (If you do, how the hell they didn't migrate to greener pastures already?)
You do not need to do fancy loopholes to point them elsewhere, especially when you can just search for search engines/social media/forums (these still exist!).
…so, how the fuck did you manage to catch me on supremely awkward tumblr? because i'm not on feddit et al! The other part of it is - people stick to specific websites because they have critical mass of users that end up producing qualityposts on various topics, not just specific censorbait. Consider all the posts here on Palestine - noone would bother if it was an echo chamber, BDS call to action works only if released upon territories that are general-assembly, otherwise the blast zone is too small.
Herein lies my actual parry: people get tech-savvy with time/practice/neccesity. By being the content on sites you do not want to support, you disincline them to leave these lands. What if they try to talk, get banned, then fed up, then leave FB/tiktok/etc? Good! That's what should happen! They will move and wherever they go to will be richer for it.
Furthermore: persistent 'stupidity' 'naivete' conceals something else. What if they like it there because it censors icky, inconvenient, buzz-killing subjects? This is why leaving is so important - by staying the cesspool gets the good (original thought that comes from not being the majority) without the bad (the minorities existing at it)!
tbh i despise "can someone please think of the children!" argument. It always covers something else - even if in this case it doesn't seem to cover anything more ambitious than unwillingness to cut ties with whoever is on… the blacklist the discouse of OP's post provides. Anything that protects the children either protects everyone or is An Agenda. So yes, we can and should leave to rot anyone who doesn't want to leave.
in the spirit of the post, furthermore was partially powered by:
In my past life as an evangelical for social action, I had a much-photocopied dossier in my desk drawer from the Procter & Gamble corporatio
*because of it's secrecy, yes, but that also means it's a quality chan still.
**i do not need to labor for proof of that, right?
...also now that i'm double-checking above i'm reminded of a method to disrupt activists by tying them up in inefficent endeavours. Couldn't find a good proof it's part of modernized cointelpro until i tapped mojeek. Not an accusation but it's good to have an eye on the big picture and the goal-of-goals, yeah?
Mojeek is a web search engine that provides unbiased, fast, and relevant search results combined with a no tracking privacy policy.
It's not r*pe, it's rape. It's not su*cide, it's suicide. Not unalive, dead. The backbone needs to be reintroduced en masse because softening the blow of these concepts with advertising language does absolutely nothing but allow people unaffected by them to feel not even a sting of what they can do, prompting inaction.
And it's been proven that on certain websites, you don't even face a repercussion for using the words as they are. People just started censoring themselves because they feared the potential lack of views and likes and followers which is so nasty itself.
it's not censorship per se, it's not a lack of backbone either, it's born out of an attempt to bypass the censorship, the backbone to speak about the things they don't want you to speak about,...
it's like cockney rhyming slang... a way to talk openly about whatever the fuck you want, even in front of the "cops"
it's a refusal to be silent
because it's born out of an environment that would literally silence you should you say the actual words
So instead, they found new words.
it's not about views or likes or followers, it's being told "you can't talk about death" and saying "fuck you, I'll talk about unaliving if I want to, it's an important conversation"
Getting around censorship by censoring yourself isn't really the way. We need to keep saying death and suicide and rape even if we get kicked off of platforms. The conversation we're having right now is an important conversation. We can't self-censor to obey censorship and pretend that's getting around censorship.
So the way to avoid being censored is to be kicked off the platform Instead of finding ways to be able to still speak about the actual subjects?
You're arguing that the words death and suicide and rape are more important than still speaking about death, and about suicide, and about rape?
That it's more important to hold on to the words themselves rather than the conversation?
Because the intent of the censorship is to stop us talking about these things.
The point isn't the precise words, they're trying to remove the topic, the conversation, and switching out the words is refusing to allow them to remove the topic, the conversation.
Why not use these opportunities to keep moving the actual convo to fediverse/social media of your choice?
For instance, reddit became noticably trashier (content-wise) after blackouts over killing the only real way to use it on mobile. And this naturally affects all users. For n=1 (that's me!), this correlates with less use. And guess what - most subreddits just. have a discord link. in their sidebar.
Instead of playing nice (driving/retaining engagement to their site for monetizing data harvesting), how does sabotaging a hostile website to death sound?
Eadem mutata resurgo @analytical-machine - Tumblr Blog | Tumgag
